PC-FX homebrew development.

[Arkhan Asylum]

You're wrong there ... a mouse is a controller ... and so is a joypad ... there's a difference between the generic "controller" term and the specific case. If you ever develop a title on a platform that has strict manufacturer's standards (including terminology) ... then you'll learn to tell the difference.

Yes, I know what you meant ... but your language was imprecise, and that gave me a loophole ... so I took advantage of it. 

Yes, I know the difference.  However, we're talking about consoles where the typical vernacular dictates that controller = standard thing that came with the machine, and mouse = thing you bought extra that isn't a controller because it doesn't work with majority of the library.

Your already typical semantics nonsense (in such a small post count), and bullshit penis waving aside, yes, you know what I meant, so, the entire thing was rather pointless.

I personally really wish you would cut with the borderline useless condescending, know-it-all crap and just get to the point (If you have one).    It's obvious you know stuff, but I'm not sure why you choose to deliver it in such a retarded manner.

Since you obviously don't have a clue of what I'm thinking of doing ... is there some reason that you're being so negative?

First, I'm not being negative.  You're new here and don't really know the crowd too good yet.  Try participating in threads besides rolling around in the technical ones, and you might realize this shit, instead of just being a bit of a knob and rubbing certain people the wrong way.

I am stating facts (PC-FX lacks action games, Amiga games are mostly beyond shit attempts at mimicking Japanese games), and speculating based off of your Amiga statement from before/your current mouse-jabbery, that you're probably not making an action game.

This was your cue to chime in a little and elaborate.  You may have picked up on this if you dialed back the condescension-o-meter a bit and would stop being so quick to assert your prior experience that I really couldn't give two fucks about at this point. 

This is all curiosity because

1) I am interested.
2) The PC-FX is my second favorite machine, next to the PCE.

This is why I asked how well versed you are in the library.  Are you aware of what voids need filled, and how they might be filled?

You don't really participate in the forum outside of technical crap, so I honestly have no clue what kind of experience you have with either NEC machine in terms of actual gameplay. 

I come from the "try to put something on the machine that isn't there already" walk of life, instead of the "put some trite bullshit on the machine just because I felt like it" one.

My personal stance is: If you don't really have a strong passion for a platform and the current library, you really probably shouldn't be making a game for that platform until you fix this issue. 

Anyway, I am Arkhan.  I don't sugar coat anything.  You've probably noticed this by now.

[Mednafen]

Arkhan and his acerbic words don't speak for me, and I've little doubt others here feel the same way.

Just do whatever you want or is is enjoyable, even if "enjoyable" turns out to be a simple Tyrian port. ;)

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Make games you enjoy and want to work on.  If it's fun, I'll gladly buy it and play it, giving zero fucks that there's other similar games.

I come from the "try to put something on the machine that isn't there already" walk of life, instead of the "put some trite bullshit on the machine just because I felt like it" one.

Bitch, please.  I enjoy Insanity, Pyramid Plunder, and Atlantean quite a bit, but you're batshit crazy if you think they're filling a void and unlike several other game in the PCE's library.

[OldRover]

I would have no problem making action games for the PC-FX... platformers and shooters especially.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Even with only two players, Bomberman FX would be le tits. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

Bitch, please.  I enjoy Insanity, Pyramid Plunder, and Atlantean quite a bit, but you're batshit crazy if you think they're filling a void and unlike several other game in the PCE's library.

The goal for them was "more pre-crash games besides Galaga and Space Invaders".   

my main point is Amiga = probably not a good idea. 

Especially if we're talking about like, Turrican FX.   

Even with only two players, Bomberman FX would be le tits. 

Yeah.  Anything y'know, NEC/Hudson-y

[elmer]

Arkhan and his acerbic words don't speak for me, and I've little doubt others here feel the same way.

Just do whatever you want or is is enjoyable, even if "enjoyable" turns out to be a simple Tyrian port. ;)

Thank you.

And "thank you", too for mentioning Tyrian ... I'm not sure if anyone has ever pointed that game out to me before.

I'm going to enjoy playing it, and the fact that it is open-source does make it a potential project, some day. 

Make games you enjoy and want to work on.  If it's fun, I'll gladly buy it and play it, giving zero fucks that there's other similar games.

AFAIK there's nothing quite like it on the PC-FX.

The game's prequel was available on the PCE, but the 2nd game was never released on the PCE or PC-FX.

The problem is that unless I can get some art support ... it's not going to take advantage of the PCE's extra colors, and may look a bit bland.

When the game is actually running, and an artist can see that they wouldn't be wasting their time, then perhaps someone will be willing to give it a bit of "love".

I'm thinking that a PCE/PC-FX dual-boot CD would be nice ... either as a free downloadable, or as a pressed CD if the community shows enough interest in that.

The big caveat is ... it's not the world's deepest game. It was a bit of a gimmick, even at the time that it came out.

OTOH, it's simplicity is precisely what makes it a great 'starter' project.

I would have no problem making action games for the PC-FX... platformers and shooters especially.

I would love to do a good platformer or shooter on the PC-FX ... something to show that it could do more than was seen in it's game catalogue at the time.

There's a 1996 arcade game that comes to mind ... but it's a bit too complex to be a good 1st project.

Even with only two players, Bomberman FX would be le tits. 

Hudson have done such a great job with all the Bomberman games that there's absolutely nothing that I can think of to do to enhance one of their games for the PC-FX.

I learned a long time ago that I'm not a very good game designer ... programming is what I'm much better at.

[elmer]

I personally really wish you would cut with the borderline useless condescending, know-it-all crap and just get to the point (If you have one).    It's obvious you know stuff, but I'm not sure why you choose to deliver it in such a retarded manner.

I think that that could be one of the most open and honest posts that I've seen from you, so I'll respond in kind.

BTW ... we're very different people, and we communicate in different ways, and so, "yes", we've been banging heads.

Just think of it like you're talking to your granddad ... I use language in a different way from you, and if that causes you trouble, please just write it off as comments from an old fart that you can ignore.

If you look at my posts objectively, I hope that you'd find that I try to get to the point, and that I try to be encouraging and helpful ... that's my intent. I'd be sorry if I'm failing at that.

Your sig line says ...

If you're not ready to defend your claims, don't post em

I am prepared to defend anything that I've said. And I hope that I've been quick to apologize and retract when I've been shown to be wrong.

From my POV ... if you think that I've been a dickhead to you, it's precisely been because I've been challenging you to defend your claims, and perhaps to distinguish "fact" from "personal opinion".

This was your cue to chime in a little and elaborate.  You may have picked up on this if you dialed back the condescension-o-meter a bit and would stop being so quick to assert your prior experience that I really couldn't give two fucks about at this point.

Of course I knew it. I deliberately chose not to elaborate ... primarily because of your negativity.

I only keep on asserting my "prior experience" ... because you keep on calling things facts that my "prior experience" tells me are really opinions.

I am stating facts (PC-FX lacks action games, Amiga games are mostly beyond shit attempts at mimicking Japanese games), and speculating based off of your Amiga statement from before/your current mouse-jabbery, that you're probably not making an action game.

Actually, it's a Japanese arcade game (an action one).

Not a stunningly great game from the POV of history ... but popular enough in it's day.

Since it didn't get a SNES port until 1994 ... I feel that it's fair to take advantage of the Arcade Card if I want to, and perhaps do both a PCE and a PC-FX version with the same graphics.

But it won't be a good example of what the PC-FX can do ... it's way too simple.

As I stated ... it's a "starter" project to get some code written on both machines, and to provide some working code that can be ripped-apart to help produce libraries ... so that when someone has written them for you, you can do whatever game you like that you think fits the platform better.

This is all curiosity because

1) I am interested.
2) The PC-FX is my second favorite machine, next to the PCE.

This is why I asked how well versed you are in the library.  Are you aware of what voids need filled, and how they might be filled?

You don't really participate in the forum outside of technical crap, so I honestly have no clue what kind of experience you have with either NEC machine in terms of actual gameplay. 

I come from the "try to put something on the machine that isn't there already" walk of life, instead of the "put some trite bullshit on the machine just because I felt like it" one.

My personal stance is: If you don't really have a strong passion for a platform and the current library, you really probably shouldn't be making a game for that platform until you fix this issue.

And this is something that I totally respect ... but that I don't necessarily agree with.

I think that the PC-FX got a crappy deal in it's lifetime. I've become interested enough in it that I'd like to work to help open it up a bit more so that people like you can create what you feel is right for the platform.

I'd personally like to put something on it that stretches it a bit more than the dating sims that were done during it's lifetime.

Unfortunately, the "starter" project won't be it ... that particular goal will have to wait until later. But I have to start somewhere, or nothing will get done.

Do I care for it's legacy catalogue? ... nope, not at all ... and judging by it's original sales and current popularity ... I'm not the only one with that opinion.

I believe that it was caught in a crappy business situation at the time of it's release ... leading to very few "good" games, and I think that Hudson's poor little PC-FX deserved better.

[Arkhan Asylum]

BTW ... we're very different people, ..etc.etc.

Your tone sometimes comes off as condescending and "quick to assert knowledge", to me at least, and tends to be a bit dismissive of others statements/experiences. 

If you're openly admitting you're a goony old fart that talks funny, this makes it different.  You'll have to understand, in "old computer/console land", a lot of people doing that sort of tone aren't doing it because they're old/goony and just trying to be involved and helpful.  They're doing it because they're literally full of shit, and trying to deflect/cover up/annoy/put everyone around them down

From my POV ... if you think that I've been a dickhead to you, it's precisely been because I've been challenging you to defend your claims, and perhaps to distinguish "fact" from "personal opinion".

You haven't really been challenging, though.  lol.  Mostly just agitating because you see opportunity to. 

I only keep on asserting my "prior experience" ... because you keep on calling things facts that my "prior experience" tells me are really opinions.

I don't think I've called anything a fact other than Amiga having shit wannabe Japanese arcade games.  I don't think anyone is really going to refute that, though.    And the thing about controller vernacular, which are semantics not worth getting overly technical about because you've already admitted you know exactly what I meant. 

The rest (here and in SoundLand) was obviously opinion and I don't think was ever stated as anything different...I think maybe you took them as fact-statements because you're approaching things from the "I'm seasoned and know more stuff" avenue, and want to assert your stuff.

Like that attempt to engage in "battle story penis waving" where you finally discovered I'm *not* an old fogey and couldn't care less about that crap.  ;)

Anyway:

As I stated ... it's a "starter" project to get some code written on both machines, and to provide some working code that can be ripped-apart to help produce libraries ... so that when someone has written them for you, you can do whatever game you like that you think fits the platform better.

What is it? Aerofighters?  King of Monsters 2?

King of Monsters 2 would be the coolest option and would make the most use of the buttons.    I can't think of any other SNES arcade ports right now.

I'd personally like to put something on it that stretches it a bit more than the dating sims that were done during it's lifetime.

Unfortunately, the "starter" project won't be it ... that particular goal will have to wait until later. But I have to start somewhere, or nothing will get done.

Do I care for it's legacy catalogue? ... nope, not at all ... and judging by it's original sales and current popularity ... I'm not the only one with that opinion.

I believe that it was caught in a crappy business situation at the time of it's release ... leading to very few "good" games, and I think that Hudson's poor little PC-FX deserved better.

The library got hosed.  There's a ton of voids to fill in the flavor of the original library.  (Whereas the PCE library is basically a powerhouse and has a complete library, minus beat em ups but nobody feels like drawing all that art).

My serious, actual gripe is mostly stemming from your mention of Amiga.   You made a comment that hinted at putting an Amiga game on the thing.  When you've got the keys to the kingdom, and the obvious knowledge to do something, I can't imagine why *anyone* would settle on an Amiga game. 

But it sounds like you AREN'T making an Amiga game on PC-FX (thank fuck for that), so, whatever.  You could make a tic-tac-toe/checkers combo game, and it'd probably be better than an Amiga port. 

but, didn't you just get into PC-FX like 2 months ago, though?  I don't think this is enough time to really settle on an opinion on the library.  What all have you played.  There *are* more than just dating sims.  The non dating sim games are all actually pretty damn good.  Minus Ruruli Ra Rura, which is pretty autistic.  It's cute and almost works.  It just kinda forgot to finish itself.

[wildfruit]

I think a decent magical chaise / Ys crossover is in order. You would have to fly around the field poking enemies in the arsehole with your broom. Also a decent Amiga port would go down well.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Also a decent Amiga port would go down well.

A decent Amiga port of what?  one of the good adventure/RPGs?  I mean we got Return to Zork going on it.   There are some other point/clicks that would be fun, but, that's not what we need on the thing since the stuff is *already playable* somewhere.

The action stuff mostly has some severe cases of the 'tisms.   Leander was the one that was almost a success.  and Lionheart.

but, they still lack in the "this is awesome" department. 

Valis 5?  That could be a thing.

[wildfruit]

I meant porting super magical ys chaise FX to Amiga!
Also you are I fear correct in your assertion that the Amiga lacks awesomeness.
Also sorry didn't mean to derail the thread too much!

[Nazi NecroPhile]

I'm thinking that a PCE/PC-FX dual-boot CD would be nice ... either as a free downloadable, or as a pressed CD if the community shows enough interest in that.

I'm sure a pressed disc would be doable.  If you don't care about getting paid at all, it doesn't take many sales to cover pressing costs.

Valis 5?  That could be a thing.

Valis X?  Fuck yeah!

[Arkhan Asylum]

I'm thinking that a PCE/PC-FX dual-boot CD would be nice ... either as a free downloadable, or as a pressed CD if the community shows enough interest in that.

I'm sure a pressed disc would be doable.  If you don't care about getting paid at all, it doesn't take many sales to cover pressing costs.

Valis 5?  That could be a thing.

Valis X?  Fuck yeah!

Valis EX

With an appropriate logo for, yknow,

sex

[elmer]

I'm sure a pressed disc would be doable.  If you don't care about getting paid at all, it doesn't take many sales to cover pressing costs.

No, I absolutely do NOT want any money coming anywhere near me on this! It wouldn't be fair to the other guys that worked on the project.

The original artist was a huge PCE fan ... so I choose to believe that he'd have no problem with me using his stuff for this, but having any money involved makes it all ... ugly.

What is it? Aerofighters?  King of Monsters 2?

Nope, neither of those.

But I'll give you all a clue, and see if you can recognize it ...

[LostFlunky]

Operation Thunderbolt

[Arkhan Asylum]

Thank balls.   When I hear Amiga + mouse use, my mind goes to depressing places.   I forgot they even *put* that game on there.   I know Operation Wolf and Cabal were.

5$ says the PC-FX can make a better version than the Amiga one.


Any plans to give the game music during the levels?  That kind of always sucked that it didn't have any.


what made you settle on this game?

EDIT: 

Also, it costs about 1000 bucks to get a game pressed in the US, with a color manual of some variety.

You *might* run into some dicey situations with it though, as they'll have you sign forms stating that you are authorized to make use of the IP on the disc (sound, art, code).

Taito is still around.   They might pee themselves.   It's not likely they give any flying fucks about PC-FX, but who knows.

So... you might want to avoid hassle and call the game like,  Thunder Mission or something, and change the art even slightly.

as for "money floating around", you can most likely sell the thing to the first 1000$/30$ people (assuming 1000 bucks, and 30$ a pop), to cover the pressing costs, and then just give them out for free + shipping costs.


Though, we are talking PC-FX here, so you might only sell 30 of the damn things.


In all honesty, since this is the case, and the PC-FX is better at CD-Rs, you might have better luck just making them yourself so you aren't sitting on 470ish copies of a PC-FX game.

[elmer]

Operation Thunderbolt

Haha ... you've got a good eye. The SNES version uses a totally different intro to the arcade, so you've got a good memory.

Any plans to give the game music during the levels?  That kind of always sucked that it didn't have any.

No idea. From what I remember, there was only one tune ... so it'd get boring really quickly.

what made you settle on this game?

Errr ... I wrote it ... and it's a simple game.

But still, the 3D sections are going to be ... "interesting" ... to try to do on sprite-based machine. 

You *might* run into some dicey situations with it though, as they'll have you sign forms stating that you are authorized to make use of the IP on the disc (sound, art, code).

"Operation Thunderbolt" was the military codename for the Israeli raid on the Entebbe airport. I'm not sure if Taito ever managed to get a trademark on it. But still ... that's easy to change.

None of the code, art or sound comes from Taito. Back then, all you got was an arcade cabinet that was set on freeplay, and the rights to use Taito's name/logo.

However ... changing the art would certainly help prevent any possible issues ... but would require an artist.

Though, we are talking PC-FX here, so you might only sell 30 of the damn things.

Remember ... I'm talking PCE/PC-FX dual-boot. Larger audience.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Ah, right.  Dual boot.

Well, still, 30ish people will cover pressing fees. (I think it took 36 to break even for us).

and then you can just cut loose and hand them out for shipping if it makes you feel dirty making money.

as for tunes, if you're going CD, there's always just putting in 80s action movie themes (Rambo, Commando, etc.), or some sort of almost, but not quite renditions of them.


Anyway, I'm glad you finally came out with "stuff you worked on".   Which machine were you on for this game?   I played the Amiga one maybe a few times (I grew up with an Amiga and thought most of the games were pretty shit compared to the SNES/Genesis/TG/NES that were 30 feet away), and a lot on the SNES.

I don't think the 3D sections will really be too difficult to do on the PC-FX, considering the horsepower and hardware capabilities.

That sort of effect was done on 8-bit machines (SMS, MSX, NES) in a pretty acceptable manner, using sprite/tile based hardware.

IIRC, alot of the 3D effect is optical illusions, isn't it?  static BG/ground (The SNES ground has some animation), animated scaling trees/etc a'la Outrun/Space Harrier, and then a bunch of idiot terrorists with weaponry bouncing around like jackasses?

[elmer]

Well, still, 30ish people will cover pressing fees. (I think it took 36 to break even for us).

Thanks for all the info about the costings ... that's very good stuff to know.

and then you can just cut loose and hand them out for shipping if it makes you feel dirty making money.

I've got no problem at all with money ... just not in this particular case.

Which machine were you on for this game?

Errr ... the machine that you hate! 

I don't think the 3D sections will really be too difficult to do on the PC-FX, considering the horsepower and hardware capabilities.

I hope not ... it's just a question of sprites-per-line with the overlapping 3D objects ... or coming up with a work-around that actually still looks good.

If you look at the SNES video, they put all their background 3D scaling-objects into characters, and everything moves on character boundaries. It looks pretty crappy, to my eye, when compared to the Amiga's pixel-boundary blitting.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Yeah.  You can get a smoother visual on the PC-FX than on the SNES.

See: Nirgends

you're not dealing with 360ish degree movement, so you should be all set.

[elmer]

I don't think I've called anything a fact other than Amiga having shit wannabe Japanese arcade games.  I don't think anyone is really going to refute that, though.

Well ... back in the late 80's and early 90's ... every computer/console was judged by the quality of it's arcade ports.

It really didn't matter whether they were Japanese or American arcade games, just that they were arcade games. Gamers wanted to have the "arcade experience" at home ... and that was why the Neo Geo AES was released.

Now it was definitely harder to find good games from the American arcade companies ... so I can understand why you think that everyone wanted to do Japanese games, but it really wasn't about them being Japanese, or even about the quality of the original games ... it was the "arcade" part of it.

As an example ... here are a couple of comparison shots from the arcade and home versions of Op Thunderbolt.  Can anyone honestly say that the home version looks like a "shit wannabe" compared to the arcade?

I think that CrackTiger's stunning work on Golden Axe shows that it's the quality of the artist and their team that makes the difference ... not whether it was a Japanese game, or even a Japanese arcade game.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I was commenting more on the gameplay itself than the visuals.  The games might look nice, but often play pretty crappy.  Especially when it's a multibutton game and you're stuck with a one button joystick or some meth-induced control scheme.

Japan just happened to be the ones with all of the powerhouse games that played very well, which is why I mentioned Japanese arcade games specifically.

So often, instead of the western world doing something they were good at, they kind of just tried to (poorly) mimic the Japanese stuff.   Most memorable games on Amiga are originals, or games that originated here.

You'll find exceptions to the rule, but they're generally buried in piles of turds in the form of horrible ports, or crappy games done in the style of Japanese game.

Off the top of my head, on Amiga specifically, I can think of...

Rodland, Op Thunderbolt, Rainbow Islands, and maybe R-Type as being alright on the Amiga.

but then you've got messes like Street Fighter 2, Sidearms, Super C, and they also somehow ballsed up the port of Bonk (not an arcade game, but still another example of Japanese mimickry). 

I'll never understand how they pulled that one off.

Like I said, I grew up with the Amiga, and was rarely impressed by the games when compared to SNES/TG/Genesis that I had sitting right nearby. 

I never understood why some of the games turned out so bad.   Maybe the teams porting it sucked at the games and couldn't recreate the gameplay?

It's an interesting thing really.   You have all the audio/visuals (sometimes the audio goes a little too eurowank for me), but then the gameplay caves in on itself.

Another hilarious example, non-Amiga, is Green Beret on MSX.     Everyone responsible for that one needs to never touch a computer, ever again.

[PCEngineHell]

Half the ports I've seen on Amiga make me wonder if the devs had actually ever even seen or played the source material. Most of the stuff just comes across as crap.

[elmer]

I was commenting more on the gameplay itself than the visuals.  The games might look nice, but often play pretty crappy.  Especially when it's a multibutton game and you're stuck with a one button joystick or some meth-induced control scheme.

Japan just happened to be the ones with all of the powerhouse games that played very well, which is why I mentioned Japanese arcade games specifically.

So often, instead of the western world doing something they were good at, they kind of just tried to (poorly) mimic the Japanese stuff.   Most memorable games on Amiga are originals, or games that originated here.

You'll find exceptions to the rule, but they're generally buried in piles of turds in the form of horrible ports, or crappy games done in the style of Japanese game.

I can only agree with you ... taking arcade games with their powerful hardware, multiple buttons, and whatever other gimmicks that they could entice people with ... and then porting them to the very-limited home computers of the day ... was something that was never going to end up well.

But people seemed to want them, and they certainly bought them ... and so companies kept on making them.

I totally agree that the best games of the time were the originals that were specifically designed for the machines that they were released on.

Off the top of my head, on Amiga specifically, I can think of...

Rodland, Op Thunderbolt, Rainbow Islands, and maybe R-Type as being alright on the Amiga.

but then you've got messes like Street Fighter 2, Sidearms, Super C, and they also somehow ballsed up the port of Bonk (not an arcade game, but still another example of Japanese mimickry). 

I'll never understand how they pulled that one off.

There were plenty of low-quality bucket-shop development companies.

And you don't need to be polite about Thunderbolt ... even though Robert did a great job on the graphics ... it was still a simple whack-a-mole gimmick game with little depth.

Like I said, I grew up with the Amiga, and was rarely impressed by the games when compared to SNES/TG/Genesis that I had sitting right nearby. 

I never understood why some of the games turned out so bad.   Maybe the teams porting it sucked at the games and couldn't recreate the gameplay?

It's an interesting thing really.   You have all the audio/visuals (sometimes the audio goes a little too eurowank for me), but then the gameplay caves in on itself.

It's always been tough to find good programmers.

But also ... don't forget that the Amiga came out in 1985, 2 years before the PCE, and 4 years before the Genesis.

Hardware changed a lot during those years, and so did the amount of consumers/money in the business ... which lead to longer development schedules and sometimes larger teams ... which in turn allowed for the possibility of better games overall.

Another hilarious example, non-Amiga, is Green Beret on MSX. Everyone responsible for that one needs to never touch a computer, ever again.

Hahaha ... I just looked at that one on YouTube ... what a disaster.

I thought that you were going to criticise the other home computer versions, which I have little love for, but the MSX one took "awful" to a whole new level.

Stuff like that was one of the reasons that MSX totally failed in the West.

I remember MSX1 machines being clearanced for about $50 ... and they still didn't seem worth it.

I liked the following quote ...

From an interview at MSX Games Box, Konami UK's old PR-manager Dennis Henings:
Q: What did Konami Japan say when they saw the MSX version of Green Beret developed by Konami UK?
A: $%£&**(())++~~ ( or their equivalent) This was much the same as I did!

Half the ports I've seen on Amiga make me wonder if the devs had actually ever even seen or played the source material. Most of the stuff just comes across as crap.

You got no design docs, no source code, no graphics, and no sound.

You were lucky if you got an arcade cabinet set on "freeplay".

Some of the cheaper developers would just video someone playing the game, and "maybe" rent one for a few weeks.

Then 2 guys would get 4 months to recreate it ... from scratch. Let's be generous and say 6 months if you did 2 versions (like the ST and Amiga).

Not a recipe for doing brilliant work ... particularly if the job had been farmed out to one of the porting shops that would hire a couple of teenagers fresh out of school to do the work for cheap.

[Arkhan Asylum]

well that explains a lot.   So you had people who were either not skilled at games, or simply barely experienced in the game at all, trying to recreate the whole thing.   That's a bit mental.

At least with things like the MSX in Japan, you had Konami cranking out home versions of games.   I guess that's what really separates the quality of games from here and there back then.

The Amiga for one, should have been able to produce very tightly put together arcade games.   For some reason, it did not have many.   Many of them looked great but played like balls.   

Even some of the classics, like Shadow of the Beast, are admittedly a bit retarded.   I prefer the PCE version of that game, because simple mechanical errors are fixed.

And, Operation Thunderbolt on Amiga is fine.  It's as good as any other home version of the game, and plays as good as you'd really expect from a version that lacks the cool, gun controller.

We used to play that, Operation Wolf, and Revolution X (lol) without the cool guns, and they were all fun anyway.

[esteban]

well that explains a lot.   So you had people who were either not skilled at games, or simply barely experienced in the game at all, trying to recreate the whole thing.   That's a bit mental.

At least with things like the MSX in Japan, you had Konami cranking out home versions of games.   I guess that's what really separates the quality of games from here and there back then.

There is a really wonderful short book written by a developer:

http://bizzley.com

It's Behind You — Bob Pape — R-Type (ZX Spectrum)

It is such a great read...it really captures so many different aspects of the UK computer scene that I was curious about.

The entire account strikes me as genuine and sincere...no sensationalism, no exaggerated drama, no manufactured dilemmas.

Anyway, it corroborates everything elmer said. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

Lol, I know some of the music in games was just written for whatever reason without the musician knowing what the game was or what was going on.


So, stuff like LED storm?   Dude was just jamming out and went oh here, I guess you can put this in the game now.   What is it!


I notice a lot of game shops back in the 80s and even early 90s were basically just kind of winging it.

That's what separates stuff like Valis from Commander Keen.   

Whole company of people vs. Dudes Who stole their work computers to work on the weekends.

I'll have to check that book out.   I like hearing about how stupid things were.

[elmer]

There is a really wonderful short book written by a developer:

http://bizzley.com

It's Behind You — Bob Pape — R-Type (ZX Spectrum)

Thank you ... I hadn't seen that before. What a fun read! 

At least with things like the MSX in Japan, you had Konami cranking out home versions of games.   I guess that's what really separates the quality of games from here and there back then.

The Japanese arcade companies had a huge incentive for producing decent ports in their own home-market ... producing crap versions would have led to a terrible loss of face ... and no Japanese exec would have tolerated that.

For territories outside Japan, where nobody at home would hear about it ... AFAIK, they couldn't care less. They got their licensing fees, and didn't seem to be interested in trying to impose any quality-control.

[elmer]

There is a really wonderful short book written by a developer:

http://bizzley.com

It's Behind You — Bob Pape — R-Type (ZX Spectrum)

It is such a great read...it really captures so many different aspects of the UK computer scene that I was curious about.

If anyone is interested in the history of those times, then Chris Wilkins' "History of Ocean" tells the tale of one particular company ... but since it's more of a history-through-interviews, it's not as good of a story-read as Bob's book.

http://www.fusionretrobooks.com/The-History-of-Ocean-Software-p/ocean.htm

There used to be a cheap PDF version, but I can't find it anymore.

[Arkhan Asylum]

From what I remember reading, that Green Beret debacle was the last time Konami let round eye touch their software for awhile. 

[elmer]

From what I remember reading, that Green Beret debacle was the last time Konami let round eye touch their software for awhile. 

Hahahaha ... I can totally believe it after that seeing that mess!

The "History of Ocean" mentions that the C64 version Thunderbolt was another disastrous outside-job,  and that they canned the developer and had to rewrite it from scratch internally in 3 1/2 weeks.

In the early days, that kind of screw-up was unfortunately not as uncommon as it should have been.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I'd like to meet the crew responsible for Double Dragon on C64.   I waited about 10 minutes for that trainwreck to load. 

Only to go "....." *click*   and walk back over to play Sega.

[elmer]

I'd like to meet the crew responsible for Double Dragon on C64.   I waited about 10 minutes for that trainwreck to load.

I just looked on wikipedia ... Binary Designs Ltd ... hahahaha ... yep, they didn't have a great reputation.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I'd probably be able to take C64/Amiga game libraries more seriously if there weren't so many shitty ports floating around.

I don't know how Sidearms made it out the door on *either* machine.

[elmer]

I'd probably be able to take C64/Amiga game libraries more seriously if there weren't so many shitty ports floating around.

I don't know how Sidearms made it out the door on *either* machine.

Hahaha ... now you're talking about Probe Software (Fergus McGovern)  ... another errrr ... not-very-good developer ... but somehow they kept on getting work, and then ...

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/jun/24/fergus.mcgovern

OK, I'm calling "uncle" ... you beat me! Mercy, please! Yes, there were a LOT of really bad ports done in those days. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

at least now I know who to punch in the eye, if I ever see the guy

[Orion_]

I would be interested to port some of my games on PC-FX, the problem is, how many people actually have a PC-FX and are willing to buy new games ?
The PC-FX is quite expensive, and because most of the games are unplayable, and the playable ones are expensive too, I guess not much people possess this console. (that the reasons I hesitate to buy one)
If there is at least 100~150 people interested, I might consider working on this machine.

Can the current liberis library play audio cd ? Movie ?

[elmer]

Welcome!

I think that you'd find it a fun machine to program for, with a very developer-friendly architecture.

More interesting than the PlayStation 1, and much less crazy than the Saturn.

I would be interested to port some of my games on PC-FX, the problem is, how many people actually have a PC-FX and are willing to buy new games ?

You'd probably be better off asking that in the main "PC-FX Discussion" section, because not all PC-FX players/collectors are interested in the "Development" section.

I suspect that a lot of PC-FX owners would be open to new games ... the problem is that even here, there really aren't that many active PC-FX owners.

The PC-FX is quite expensive, and because most of the games are unplayable, and the playable ones are expensive too, I guess not much people possess this console. (that the reasons I hesitate to buy one)

If you get a used one without-box from sellers in Japan, I don't personally think that the PC-FX itself is that expensive, and surface shipping isn't that bad (but slow).

If you want a boxed one in perfect condition, and you want it fast, then it'll cost one heck of a lot more!

It's cute to have a PC-FX GA, but it isn't actually needed for development unless you want to write code for the 3D chip ... and so limit yourself to the dozen or less people on the planet with a working PC-FX GA setup.

You can develop quite happily in Mednafen while waiting for real hardware to arrive ... Ryphecha's emulation accuracy is excellent, and it's a nicer development environment than the PC-FX GA anyway.

And since the machine has absolutely no copy-protection, you can burn a CD and run anything that you like and try it before deciding whether you want to buy it.

If there is at least 100~150 people interested, I might consider working on this machine.

That's your decision to make.

If you're interested in being an early developer of Western PC-FX homebrew, and you're not afraid of the challenge of working on a machine that is still fairly unknown, and you're willing to try to puzzle your way through Japanese hardware manuals, then you're in the right place at the right time.

If you're looking for major recognition and some financial reward for your efforts ... then this might not be the best machine for you.

Can the current liberis library play audio cd ? Movie ?

No, I'm afraid not.

You can see Alex's liberis documentation, and his English copy of the documentation that the Japanese homebrew guys put together in 2000/2001 at http://daifukkat.su/pcfx/

If you really want to develop on the PC-FX right now, Hudson's old PC-FX GA libraries are supposed to work with the old Japanese GCC 2.95 toolchain.

I believe that they were supposed to be limited to only run on the PC-FX GA, but that's probably just in the C startup code, which you could replace.

I'm specifically avoiding the use of those old libraries moving forward, because I want to have a 100% legal toolchain that can be used for homebrew.

AFAIK, that would make it the only 5th-gen machine with a completely legal toolchain ... but I could easily be wrong on that, and would be happy to be corrected.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

The PC-FX is quite expensive....

I recently sold my extra boxed system and a half dozen common games for $200 shipped, so it's not that expensive.

[elmer]

The PC-FX is quite expensive....

I recently sold my extra boxed system and a half dozen common games for $200 shipped, so it's not that expensive.

That's because you're a kind and generous soul, and not a seller in Japan working hard and trying to make a living off of eBay. 

[Nazi NecroPhile]

They weren't from Japan, but I did buy 'em on ebay and I didn't lose money reselling them.

[elmer]

Hmmmm ... small hiccup with GCC 4.7.4 ... the V850 guys changed the system ABI in 2010, and so liberis won't run without modification. I'm still trying to decide how to handle that, and if there's any advantage in using the new ABI on the PC-FX's V810.

In the meantime, I have binutils 2.22 and GCC 4.5.4 compiling V810 code, and have the liberis demo programs running on mednafen's PC-FX eumulation with that combo.

Since GCC 4.5.4 was released in 2012, I'm still going to claim 12 years of improvements over the old Japanese GCC 2.95.2.

Early days, though, and lots more testing to do ... but good progress.

Jeez ... I posted that almost a year ago ... where has the time gone! 

I thought that I'd take a short break from the Xanadu translations and take a look at this again.

Binutils 2.23 and GCC 4.7.4 are now compiling the "liberis" demo programs correctly, using the old V810 ABI that dates back to the ancient Japanese GCC 2.95 (and even earlier).

I'm definitely going to need to do some more testing, but moving up to the GCC 4.7 compiler gives us nearly full compliance with the latest "C11" standard.

There are still a couple of things from C11 that didn't get to be standards-compliant until GCC 4.9 (like atomics) ... but nothing that anyone is likely to need on an old single-core system like the PC-FX.

The nice thing (for me), is that I've now got binutils 2.23 and GCC 4.7.4 on both the PC-FX and the X68000, so I can mess-about in C with both of Hudson's old GCC-capable machines. 

[OldRover]

Sounds like a major improvement over the old system, and sufficient for those ambitious enough to do some serious dev. I am considering buying a PC-FX for this purpose.

[elmer]

Sounds like a major improvement over the old system, and sufficient for those ambitious enough to do some serious dev. I am considering buying a PC-FX for this purpose.

I was going to recommend a PC-FXGA, mostly in order to use a nice-and-fast PC CDROM drive that can read anything. But you've already pulled-the-plug, so I'm a bit late.

As long as you're willing to put up with the tools in their slowly-evolving state, then I think that you'll find it a nice machine to work on. 

[OldRover]

As long as you're willing to put up with the tools in their slowly-evolving state, then I think that you'll find it a nice machine to work on. 

I was willing to work with trap15 while developing liberis, using Linux inside of a virtual machine and even ironing out a method of making the system work under cygwin... so yeah, I'm up for it.

[elmer]

As long as you're willing to put up with the tools in their slowly-evolving state, then I think that you'll find it a nice machine to work on. 

I was willing to work with trap15 while developing liberis, using Linux inside of a virtual machine and even ironing out a method of making the system work under cygwin... so yeah, I'm up for it.

You helped Alex with creating "liberis"? That's so cool! 

That's also how this kind of stuff is "supposed" to work in these "internet-connected" days.

Someone may leave ... someone may appear. As long as there's decent documentation for everyone's efforts, then we can all build on each-other's hard work and create something wonderful.

I've been adding my work to this endeavor ... but I wouldn't have even started without seeing that Alex "trap15" Marshall had trailblazed the whole library issue, and that's without considering Rypheca's incredible contribution in creating Mednafen in the first place.

Piece-by-piece ... that's how we'll open up the PC-FX for "modern" homebrew development.

[OldRover]

My contributions were minimal but yeah, I was there... by the time I got involved though, liberis was already pretty far along. Mainly what I did was testing new stuff he was adding, but I also wrote a high-level sprite library extension so that HuC users wouldn't have much of a learning curve. I think it was Ryphecha who got the old gcc working in the first place. We would all jaw for hours on IRC while it was being developed.

[spenoza]

Talk about a labor of love, doing any kind of dev for the PC-FX. There's underdog and then there's underdog.

While you're at it, develop for the Bandai Pippin (but deliberately make sure it won't work on a Mac).  ; )

[OldRover]

Bandai Pippin