1990 Tournament - Ys Book I&II versus Super Mario Bros 3 - Vote Now!!

[NightWolve]

wayback://theretroleague.com/1990-tournament/

We started with 64 games and we're down to the final two. What is the best video game of 1990 - Super Mario Bros 3 (NES) or Ys Book I&II (Turbografx-16 CD)?

Answer    Votes    Percentage
Answer    Votes    Percentage

Super Mario Bros 3 (NES)    58    54.21%
Ys Book I&II (TurboGrafx-16 CD)    49    45.79%

Ys Book I & II is apparently losing a poll to some NES game, can you believe that ? Please throw some votes at Ys ASAP. Thanks! ;)

[shawnji]

Arrggghh.... Urgggghhh... I'm really torn here.  I just got done replaying Ys I&II today, but Super Mario Bros. 3 is one of my favorite platformers of all time!  DON'T MAKE ME CHOOSE!!!

...

Okay, I chose Ys.   XD

[NightWolve]

Looks like it's the last day to vote, and if I didn't pull some sway here, Ys will surely lose out to some NES game and we can't have that I say! ;)

[Psycho Punch]

I voted SMB3.

[elmer]

Looks like Ys is doing a little better now. 

[DragonmasterDan]

and if I didn't pull some sway here, Ys will surely lose out to some NES game and we can't have that I say! ;)

I interpret this as "I used Tor to stuff the ballot box"

[NightWolve]

Nah, never heard of it, I just PM'ed my Facebook Ys friends and others...

BUT, ever since Psycho Punch/Aleff showed up and declared his challenge, it is clearly now being stuffed at about every 3 minutes by someone for SM3... It might not make it now.

[Psycho Punch]

Lol of course I voted for Ys NightWolve.

[Gentlegamer]

Thanks, I voted for Super Mario Bros. 3!

[NightWolve]

I messaged the wrong douche somewhere, and now there's been a 3 minute increment vote on SM3 for what was otherwise a quiet site for the most part... Can't know for sure who, but whatever... :/

[Psycho Punch]

I wonder who cares about setting up a bot for a poll with 100 total votes.

[esteban]

I voted for ________.

Ys is winning (108 ).

[Opethian]

don't blame me I voted for Obama

[bob]

There's a "league"?

[CrackTiger]

I don't remember what all the console games of 1990 are, but definitely Ys I & II > SMB3.

And I think that SMB3 is probably the best overall Mario game.

[NecroPhile]

I'm too late to vote, but Ys is definitely better than SMB3.  While the latter is a darn good platformer, it doesn't feel special like Ys, with its great story, humor, pro voice acting, and kick ass tunes.

[NightWolve]

When I went to sleep last night at ~1 AM, Ys was leading by about 9 points, and whatever was doing that 3 min per increment for SMB3 had stopped. But today I saw an email from a friend at 3:49 AM and she said she voted for Ys but the lead she saw was gonna be tough to beat... So whatever was doing that vote stuffing took off again I guess. :/ So yeah, SMB3 probably won.

[grolt]

I am a huge Ys fan and would vote for Book I & II in most scenarios, but SMB3 was such a monumental, groundbreaking game that it's really tough to justify voting for what's essentially a beefed up, several-years-old port of Ys: The Vanished Omens (and the mazey and sometimes tedious Book II).  SMB3 is iconic, pushed the NES to its limits and is filled with character, exploration, secrets and creativity.  Don't worry though, I didn't vote.

[CrackTiger]

I am a huge Ys fan and would vote for Book I & II in most scenarios, but SMB3 was such a monumental, groundbreaking game that it's really tough to justify voting for what's essentially a beefed up, several-years-old port of Ys: The Vanished Omens (and the mazey and sometimes tedious Book II).  SMB3 is iconic, pushed the NES to its limits and is filled with character, exploration, secrets and creativity.  Don't worry though, I didn't vote.

You've done a good of accurately describing what you think of the games, just not the games themselves.

If you reversed your descriptions, it would be much more accurate.

[NecroPhile]

What about SMB3 is groundbreaking?  It's more of a well polished collection of ideas and mechanics found elsewhere, kinda like Apple hardware.

[esteban]

SMB3 was/is an utterly fantastic game.

But everyone knows this.

Ys I & II was able to make me feel real moments of drama (when the bell tolled). That alone makes it magical.

Folks trying to deny that SMB3 was an absolutely awesome game are smoking the anti-Nintendo hookah.

It was an excellent execution and deserves much praise.

However, Ys I & II was a marvelous experience, too. The fact that it has one of the best soundtracks that perfectly complements the game is mere icing on the cake.

I voted Ys because not enough folks have actually played it, on real hardware, with the lights off, free from distractions.

God damn.

[CrackTiger]

SMB3 was/is an utterly fantastic game.

But everyone knows this.

Ys I & II was able to make me feel real moments of drama (when the bell tolled). That alone makes it magical.

Folks trying to deny that SMB3 was an absolutely awesome game are smoking the anti-Nintendo hookah.

It was an excellent execution and deserves much praise.

However, Ys I & II was a marvelous experience, too. The fact that it has one of the best soundtracks that perfectly complements the game is mere icing on the cake.

I voted Ys because not enough folks have actually played it, on real hardware, with the lights off, free from distractions.

God damn.

I agree that SMB3 is a great and more importantly fun game and it's one of my favorite Nintendo games. But which of the two games in question does this best describe?

"filled with character, exploration, secrets and creativity."


We have many more people here who don't appreciate classic Ys or even the Turbo/PCE in general than we do anti-Nintendo types.

[grolt]

I am a huge Ys fan and would vote for Book I & II in most scenarios, but SMB3 was such a monumental, groundbreaking game that it's really tough to justify voting for what's essentially a beefed up, several-years-old port of Ys: The Vanished Omens (and the mazey and sometimes tedious Book II).  SMB3 is iconic, pushed the NES to its limits and is filled with character, exploration, secrets and creativity.  Don't worry though, I didn't vote.

You've done a good of accurately describing what you think of the games, just not the games themselves.

If you reversed your descriptions, it would be much more accurate.

I realize it is an uphill battle debating this on a Turbografx forum, and let me preface this by saying I'm platform agnostic - I grew up loving SEGA but still had Nintendo, Apple, Sony and NEC systems growing up and respect that each system had diverse and solid libraries.  The facts remain (and they were mostly facts, not my thoughts on the games), that Ys is a port of two older games (maybe a battle against Super Mario All-Stars would be more fitting?), and other than the awesome CD-tunes one that didn't particularly push the envelope of the TG from a hardware perspective.  Nintendo packed additional chips and hardware inside SMB3 to allow it to accomplish split-screen scrolling, animated tiles and hardware feats that hadn't all been brought together in such a complete package as this before.  From a software side, SMB3 pushed concepts like non-linearity, overworld interfaces, secret hunting and sandboxing.  Being able to fly in that game allowed players to explore each level in multiple heights and directions that surely inspired concepts from other classic games like Dragon's Curse or Sonic the Hedgehog.  The physics of the game helped popularize the found art of speedruns and the secrets and clever level design encouraged players to interact with games in a new kind of way - you could replay levels and just try different things, finding pipes in the sky, warp flutes or even a secret to play on an entirely different plane.  Even ignoring the multiple ways you could play or finish the 90 different levels, you could also spend time with various puzzle and matching games, versus games or even an included version of Mario Bros.  Before Shenmue or GTA it really was one of the first sandbox kind of games.  Just look at the response to Super Mario Maker today to see its fundamental influence on the creativity and the imagination of gamers all these years later.

The other thing that I think really makes SMB3 standout is that it still stands the test of time.  There are better Ys games (and even better ports of Ys Book I & II) available today (Oath in Felghana, Seven, take your pick), but the physics, variety and creativity in SMB3 peaked in 3 - it's still to this day cited by many (most?) as the best Mario game.

Ys Book I & II has simple gameplay and a predictable structure - you run into shit and then go into a town and talk to people.  The production values on the TG are great and I love the amount of NPCs and dialogue you get to experience, but it's still by comparison a much simpler and basic gameplay experience.  What did it pioneer that Zelda hadn't already a few years prior?  I'd argue as the series evolved it had greater attention to strategy and the complexity of it's awe-inspiring boss battles, but  the game in question here is quaint by comparison.  I just don't see how the TG-CD port somehow stands up today one of the best games ever made, but I'd love to hear why.

What about SMB3 is groundbreaking?  It's more of a well polished collection of ideas and mechanics found elsewhere, kinda like Apple hardware.

Was the iPhone groundbreaking?  The Macintosh?  I'd argue yes, because they changed the way we interacted with technology.  Others had tried those markets before, but the secret is putting it all together and making it an experience so refined it incites a paradigm shift.  SMB3 did that to platformers and game design in general.

[Gentlegamer]

You can't cite Zelda because it's a Hydlide clone. 

[NecroPhile]

Was the iPhone groundbreaking?  The Macintosh?

I meant modern day Apple stuff; I'll give you the original Macs, and I'm sure there's other old stuff that was equally innovative.  There is nothing groundbreaking in the iPhone, though, as there were phones before it with touchscreens, icon based guis, etc.; the phones that actually introduced new tech and ideas are innovative, not the one that copied and better implemented 'em.

I'd argue yes, because they changed the way we interacted with technology.  Others had tried those markets before, but the secret is putting it all together and making it an experience so refined it incites a paradigm shift.  SMB3 did that to platformers and game design in general.

Groundbreaking is not a synonym for successful.

[PukeSter]

If the question was Ys I and II vs Super Mario World, I'd have to vote Mario World.

But since it's Ys I and II vs Mario 3, definitely Ys I and II.

I don't find Mario 3 very fun to re-visit.

[esteban]

If the question was Ys I and II vs Super Mario World, I'd have to vote Mario World.

But since it's Ys I and II vs Mario 3, definitely Ys I and II.

I don't find Mario 3 very fun to re-visit.

I don't know...I can't go back to Super Mario World as often as I can go back to SMB3 in any given window of time.

 But both SMB3 and SMW are great games.

[CrackTiger]

One of my favorite SNES games is Super Mario Allstars + Super Mario World. As much as I prefer the original versions of the NES games, I'd choose this cart over any one of the individuals as a desert island pick.

[PukeSter]

One of my favorite SNES games is Super Mario Allstars + Super Mario World. As much as I prefer the original versions of the NES games, I'd choose this cart over any one of the individuals as a desert island pick.

I agree, except for Mario 1. They changed the physics so Mario's head goes through a block instead of hitting it. Pretty annoying.

The Mario USA and 3 remakes are outstanding. Nintendo did an amazing job with those.

I don't care about Lost Levels.

[CrackTiger]

One of my favorite SNES games is Super Mario Allstars + Super Mario World. As much as I prefer the original versions of the NES games, I'd choose this cart over any one of the individuals as a desert island pick.

I agree, except for Mario 1. They changed the physics so Mario's head goes through a block instead of hitting it. Pretty annoying.

The Mario USA and 3 remakes are outstanding. Nintendo did an amazing job with those.

I don't care about Lost Levels.

What I meant, is that I'd still rather play the NES versions, but as a set, like Ys I & II is, it was the best that had ever been released for consoles up to that point. Nintendo really did go to extra length polishing up the set aesthetically and functionally. The menu with box scans is a particularly nice touch. Hard to believe that they'd go even further by adding SMW.

[Gentlegamer]

I can't play Super Mario All-Stars, it feels all wrong.

[CrackTiger]

Was the iPhone groundbreaking?  The Macintosh?

I meant modern day Apple stuff; I'll give you the original Macs, and I'm sure there's other old stuff that was equally innovative.  There is nothing groundbreaking in the iPhone, though, as there were phones before it with touchscreens, icon based guis, etc.; the phones that actually introduced new tech and ideas are innovative, not the one that copied and better implemented 'em.

I'd argue yes, because they changed the way we interacted with technology.  Others had tried those markets before, but the secret is putting it all together and making it an experience so refined it incites a paradigm shift.  SMB3 did that to platformers and game design in general.

Groundbreaking is not a synonym for successful.

This kind of mentality came up again recently at sega-16. This is how I summed it up then:


Unfortunately, today more people seem to believe that popularizing something among the ignorant equals inventing, innovating, revolutionizing and anything/everything else of merit and everything else has to be less by default.






That comic seriously was made three years ago. This has become so prevalent that it's not hard now to call out upcoming revisionism in advance.

In the not-so-far-off future, video game history will equal "Nintendo" and "not-Nintendo". To a majority of "retro" game fans/collectors, it already does. Communities like this are the fringe.

[PukeSter]

I wonder if Grolt just means the PCE version of Ys wasn't as groundbreaking as Mario 3.

The original Ys was very groundbreaking when it was first released, but for it's gameplay and story. The PCE Remake was even more impressive, because it took all those wonderful things and added Redbook audio and the cutscenes, ad it put both games in one package.

But the core gameplay, compositions, graphical style and story didn't change one bit, if at all.

But I'm not really sure what he's thinking. That's just my guess.

[Gentlegamer]

This kind of mentality came up again recently at sega-16. This is how I summed it up then:


Unfortunately, today more people seem to believe that popularizing something among the ignorant equals inventing, innovating, revolutionizing and anything/everything else of merit and everything else has to be less by default.

The thing is, in a commercial context, popularizing something usually does mean all those superlatives, but doesn't have to mean the negatives (everything else is less by default).

Something innovative ('groundbreaking,' 'important,' etc) in a commercial context is almost never something purely novel.

This applies also in the art world. Many of Shakespeare's plays are no less masterpieces for making use of plots that were 2,000 years old.

[shawnji]

To be fair, Ys has its fair share of faults.  The amount of backtracking is ridiculous in both Darm Tower and the Solomon Shrine.  Going up the belfry twice for example.  That was a bad design decision, because there is nothing else in that area that makes the return trip worth it other than a plot MacGuffin that you have to hold something up to the sky.  Those things are kind of tolerable the first time, but on my subsequent playthroughs I've been genuinely annoyed by them.  I just wanted to get back to populated areas and on to the fights with Dalles and Darm.  Granted, at this point I have now played through six different versions of Ys I&II (Eternal, Chronicles, Falcom Classics, etc.), and the Turbo version five times now.

The layout of several areas isn't intuitive and can lead to people getting lost because of how similar things look from area to area within those two locations in particular.  A map feature would have been a welcome addition. 

Being forced to sit through several dialogue boxes that you've already read when you want to heal at the Goddesses' Palace is also obnoxious, and there are a number of items that don't seem to serve any particular purpose.

These same things can, of course, be said of many games.  My point was simply that the game is not without its flaws.  There are very good cases to be made for both games, or even for other games of that year. 

Heck, Metal Gear 2 also came out that year in Japan, and there was literally nothing else like it on the market besides its predecessor (which was extremely ambitious, but unpolished).  That game was absolutely visionary for the time in which it was made, to the point that Metal Gear Solid is almost a direct copy-paste job.

To be honest with you, one of my absolute favorite games from that year is Little Nemo.  It's filled with bugs, glitches, and slow-down; but it also has some of the best melodies I've ever heard on the NES, and it's got some great gameplay concepts and tight controls.  I wouldn't say it's better than any of the other games by a longshot, but I've also probably played it 50+ times now without tiring of it.

My main point is that much of this is subjective and there are good arguments to be heard from all sides.

[NightWolve]

Oh good, so I assumed wrong, the friend that I mentioned who saw it at 3:49 AM Sunday before voting was referring to Ys being ahead, she thinks by about 20 (So maybe DragonMasterDan continued the fight after I went to sleep, thanks dude! Heh)! So yeah, Ys probably won!

[Dicer]

SMB3 is the better "game" but Ys is an "Experience"

[o.pwuaioc]

I can't play Super Mario All-Stars, it feels all wrong.

Yep.

Also, I didn't vote, but I would have voted SMB3. Sorry, love!

[majors]

And to think Ys might not have been in the running. Retro League was using Moby Games as reference to release dates but I kindly let them know that it was in fact released in 1990 stateside. You know what got my vote.

[NightWolve]

I saw your account there, figured it was the same person.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Well, I was out of town, so, I missed the poll....

[CrackTiger]

I saw Turbo Ys I & II at a Radio Shack in 1989.

Of course, the local rental store had multiple copies of SMB3 in 1988 and I had mastered the game long before it was announced to the North American public.

This is why it doesn't make sense to use North American release dates. Imports were common during most of the 8-bit generation. Pretty much from the moment the NES took off onward.