The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles

[ClodBusted]

Great explanation, Zeta. Now even me, the analog electronics guy, got a better understanding of digital electronics. The comparison of knocking on a door is pretty sound. Thanks!

[CGQuarterly]

Yeah not even remotely the same.  You're comparing apples to oranges. 

If some one told you running a certain type of gasoline had a chance of ruining your engine would you do it just because no one else had that problem?  When there's a recall on your car do you not get it done because no one you know has had the problem?

It's like saying yeah my tires are only rated for 80 mph but until some one drives them at 160 and they blow that's what I'm going to do.

Yeah not even remotely the same.  You're comparing apples to oranges. 

Lol, k.

[ClodBusted]

Cool post by db in 2015 (!), going more into details electronics wise and doing the math for you guys:

http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2170#p27335

BTW, I've actually taken the time to contact the FAE (Field Applications Engineer) of several flash producing companies (Microchip and Macronix) and discussed the 5V -> 3.3V issue, they both replied "OMG DON'T DO THAT!" when I mentioned adding a series resistor as a simple solution.

*thumbs up*

[BlueBMW]

If the end result is a possible over-current situation on data lines in the CPUs and RAM chips, could we not just add some heatsinks to the various chips in our consoles to accommodate the extra heat production?

[ClodBusted]

Hahaha.


EDIT:
Not directed to you, just a general rant:

Reminds me of fellow hobbygrade R/C car drivers on some forums I visit.

They upgrade their cars with fancy high RPM electric motors, but power is still controlled by the stock electronic speed controller. Then they gather in forums and complain about their cars cutting off every other minute. Until they realise that they actually need a better controller that's able to cope with the high current draw and the heat that's building up. Just bodging on a bigger heat sink on the stock controller isn't doing it, since it is still operated outside of its specs.

The same goes for those R/C drivers who can't accept the fact that their modern 2.4 GHz micro-sized radio receivers lack a power regulator to step down the battery voltage from 7.2V to a radio gear compatible range of 4.8V - 6V. And then they are confused when either their receivers or steering servos behave erratic or even release their magic smoke. Even when confronted with the truth that they need an external BEC for power regulation, they still won't believe the facts... until one of their 50+ mph cars gets out of control and causes substantial harm to bystanding people.

[SignOfZeta]

If the end result is a possible over-current situation on data lines in the CPUs and RAM chips, could we not just add some heatsinks to the various chips in our consoles to accommodate the extra heat production?

Nah, I think it makes more sense to just throw away systems every once in a while until yet another version of these cards gets released that won't do this.

[xcrement5x]

KRIKzz Response:

http://krikzz.com/forum/index.php?topic=6614.msg51195#msg51195

1. Lot of carts were sold for this years, but NO ONE were returned due the flash chip damage. If carts comes back for repair, they usually damaged physically or has some manufacturing defects. Some early carts, like edmd v2 or super-ed v1, may lost bootloaders, but this is was only software problem.
As for possibility of console damage, here also not been detected any problems. I have MD2 and Famicom-av from first days, they intensively used for development and just to play some games. I use them more than 7 years in heavy mode and nothing happens. Also we have few consoles for production testing, they used almost every day and for 7 years only one famicom died, and it happens due the power cord accidentally shorted on console pcb. The only problem with those test consoles is cartridge connectors, they stop working every 5-10 months after such using in extremely heavy conditions, but after replacement they continue working.

[CrackTiger]

I've always planned to continue upgrading to new flash carts as they get better and better, just as it's no longer 1990 and I expect to continue needing to have consoles serviced for the rest of my life.

This is just one more thing to take into consideration, but the popularity of all of these early flash carts has shown that this isn't a medium term or wide spread problem.

Ideally we should all be using step up/down converters with consoles from different regions and it's common practice in the community to use the power supplies from other consoles or random ac adaptors, even though we've been warned about potential damage in the long term.

There are many other common behaviours that we know are bad for our hardware, but we take that into consideration when we decide to go ahead and do it any way.

[SignOfZeta]

I'd have to say that I agree that the things obviously don't genuinely kill consoles at any noticeable rate, yet. Keep in mind the flash cart craze isn't very old yet. If everyone actually played all the shit they are  collectarding away, like Pier Solar, we may see more of it.

I think the comparison to a step downs is invalid though. Giving one side of a transformer power supply %15 more voltage isn't anywhere near as dumb as giving your data lines %50 more voltage. This also leaves aside the fact that many systems have world power supplies anyway so buying a step down is pointless. Also, even after whatever your power supply is the system itself is regulated. Also, cheap step down devices often ruin the things you put in them. Etc etc etc. Also, nobody who says CD-R's kill systems has yet, as far as I've seen, promoted that theory with anything approaching this level of analysis.

To the non technical mind the comparison makes sense. "Experts don't know shit."

[Gypsy]

Maybe I just have golden systems (unlikely since a couple of my optical systems were bought non-working and I brought them back to life) but I've played with a ton of burned discs and had pretty much no issues. I also had a PS2 I bought new die on me within a year and I fed it nothing but retail discs. I very much think the cdr scare tactic thing is crap.

Hard data would be interesting, but I don't think any that would support playing cdrs being bad exists. I of course could be wrong, I only have a small data pool of myself and a few friends that have played games with burned discs.

[o.pwuaioc]

Maybe I just have golden systems (unlikely since a couple of my optical systems were bought non-working and I brought them back to life) but I've played with a ton of burned discs and had pretty much no issues. I also had a PS2 I bought new die on me within a year and I fed it nothing but retail discs. I very much think the cdr scare tactic thing is crap.

There's no way a properly burned CDR could wear out the laser more quickly. If anything, you could optimize the burn to preserve it longer. I'm fairly certain the VG industry made that up to scare people into not pirating.

[CrackTiger]

The idea is that today people use high capacity cdr discs and the laser has to move farther as it reads and just gets used more. Of course, someone playing original discs everyday is still working their cd drive much more than someone playing cdrs once a week.

[Gypsy]

I'd say the best advice is to just play and enjoy your consoles. Of course if there are good measures to take such as using a good power adapter (doesn't have to be oem, just not poorly shielded garbage) as well as just not playing from discs when it's easy (ie PS2).

[SignOfZeta]

I worked at an EB during the PS2 boom and what I noticed about that system was that if you never played it you couldn't tell if it still worked. If you played it at all there was a good chance it would break in the first year. The ones we got in...I want to say mid-late 2003...failed at a huge rate, with my medium sized store receiving multiple DOA units.

Whenever one of those God forsaken GTA games came out a lot of systems would go from almost no use to 24/7 duty and shit the bed before the customer (and everyone in their family) could beat the game.

Seriously, the number of PS2s purchased to FINISH a game that was started on another, now-broken PS2...it has to be in the hundreds of thousands. That system was massively successful but also a complete POS. There have to be soooooooo many of those things in landfills.

ALSO: The PS2 is the only device I've ever owned that required me to go into a sub-menu and turn the TOSLINK on because it was off by default. WTF is that about?

[Gypsy]

Somehow, I have a launch PS2 that still works, never repaired either. It's my main one. But yes they are such pieces of shit that I keep quite a few around, including a Japanese PS2 that I've already had to repair once.

As for the TOSLINK thing that doesn't surprise me. It's a poor HD console (esp compared to XBOX) with it's crappy ypbpr and of course, the high lens failure rate. There was actually a lawsuit against Sony over improper disc read errors. Then Sony continued their legacy with those early model PS3s and really what can I even say about those that hasn't been said. This is from a company that had exploding batteries in laptops, so I basically never expect quality from them. I had to buy an external fan for my PS4.

[SignOfZeta]

To be fair, it's hard to wear out an XBox with just the three games that it has. You could have said GameCube at least.

[o.pwuaioc]

To be fair, it's hard to wear out an XBox with just the three games that it has. You could have said GameCube at least.

Aw, c'mon, let's be fair. It has at least...four exclusives.

[Gypsy]

To be fair, it's hard to wear out an XBox with just the three games that it has. You could have said GameCube at least.

I just meant comparing the hd video output of those systems.

But heh, just depends what you wanna play. It has a lot of the same games as PS2 and console exclusives (that are also on PC). Of course I'd rather play those games on PC. Obviously it doesn't have much in the way of Japanese games compared to PS2. So for someone that leans towards Japanese games (large portion of this forum I would imagine) it offers next to nothing.

[o.pwuaioc]

But heh, just depends what you wanna play. It has a lot of the same games as PS2 and console exclusives (that are also on PC). Of course I'd rather play those games on PC. Obviously it doesn't have much in the way of Japanese games compared to PS2. So for someone that leans towards Japanese games (large portion of this forum I would imagine) it offers next to nothing.

Now that I think about it, I think there were only three Xbox/PC-exclusives I nabbed after I sold my Xbox: Fable, Jade Empire, and Halo. The rest I got on PS2 or GCN. I wish I could have Panzer Dragoon Orta elsewhere, but I think that was the only one...maybe GunValkyrie.

[Gypsy]

Those would definitely be some of the better PC/Xbox games. There are a lot though. Off the top of my head I know there was a Thief game that made it to Xbox, Cthulhu, Stubbs, Arx Fatalis, Deus Ex, KOTOR, Morrowind etc...

Of course...playing Morrowind on Xbox is beneath playing Wonder Momo for 10 straight hours in terms of things I'd want to do.

[SamIAm]

As an owner of seven flashcarts and a Neo multicart, I've been eagerly reading about this for the past hour.

Interestingly, the 68000 CPU's actual output voltage for these signals might be more like 4.25 volts (although whether that is consistent across all manufacturers, I can't say), and that would drastically bring down the amount of excess current flow caused by 3.3v flash chips and no proper translators. Someone would really need to check with an oscilloscope to confirm.
Waybackup: 68000_16-Bit_Microprocessor_Apr83.pdf
(page 81)

The Z80 may be much lower - 2.4 volts.
http://datasheets.chipdb.org/SGS/SGS8400.pdf
Waybackup: SGS8400.pdf
(last page)

Of course, that's just two parts, and it's just the minimum rating while the max is unspecified. As for the PCE's CPU, who knows?

Krikzz wrote this: wayback://krikzz.com/forum/?id=6614

Heh, theory is good, but what we have on the practice?

1. Lot of carts were sold for this years, but NO ONE were returned due the flash chip damage. If carts comes back for repair, they usually damaged physically or has some manufacturing defects. Some early carts, like edmd v2 or super-ed v1, may lost bootloaders, but this is was only software problem.

As for possibility of console damage, here also not been detected any problems. I have MD2 and Famicom-av from first days, they intensively used for development and just to play some games. I use them more than 7 years in heavy mode and nothing happens. Also we have few consoles for production testing, they used almost every day and for 7 years only one famicom died, and it happens due the power cord accidentally shorted on console pcb. The only problem with those test consoles is cartridge connectors, they stop working every 5-10 months after such using in extremely heavy conditions, but after replacement they continue working.

2. Moreover, I highly suspect the addition of R1 comes from a misinterpretation of Altera app note AN258  R1 comes not from misinterpretation of Altera app note AN258, first of all i used it because directly connected flash works fine for reading, but writing almost always ends with errors.

3. As for ground planes. I trying to route all signals on front side, and release back side as much as possible for ground plane. If you will look on back side you will see that almost all filed by ground plane. The only exception is earliest carts. I think that such technique is better than lot of wires on both sides and small ground pieces everywhere (:
Some examples(MEGA-X5, ED64, Turbo-ED v2):


However, i agree that all carts should use voltage shift buffers for all IO, it will reduce power consumption, EMI noise, increase stability and overall product quality. Recently i decide to use 4-layer PCB and voltage translation for all IO in all future products (full voltage translation already long used). Some products already has 4 layer PCB (GBA, upcoming GB-X, GG/SMS-X).
Boards with four layer design:

Doesn't really address the issue of stress on the console side, though.

[esteban]

UPDATE: Bernie just informed me that he had a NEOFLASH cart inserted in his DUO (power switched on) when the plastic housing of his DUO *MELTED*.

[SamIAm]

EDIT: I think I get it.

[SignOfZeta]

Those would definitely be some of the better PC/Xbox games. There are a lot though. Off the top of my head I know there was a Thief game that made it to Xbox, Cthulhu, Stubbs, Arx Fatalis, Deus Ex, KOTOR, Morrowind etc...

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I hate all of those games. The XB was really good at that stuff, the sort of anti-human style-free depressing brown crap that goes on and on for hundreds of hours. The sort of stuff that now describes almost anything that isn't Nintendo. Oh God, how I hate this kind of shit and all the nearly identical covers with a personality-less bad ass standing in pile of wreckage with a green tint to everything.

You forgot Star Wars: Obi Wan, btw.

[Gypsy]

Lol, I'm sure I forgot a bunch of them.

Related: I don't understand how people keep buying Assassin's Creed games. But yet Ubi is like...15 games deep at this point? Something absurd. It shames yearly sports titles honestly.

Even Japan has some of this brown now, looking at Dark Souls.

I recently bought a PS4 but I'm playing just as much PCE, Saturn and old PC games as ever. Yakuza 0 is super fun though.

[CrackTiger]

Xbox has lots of nice 2D games/compilations and almost always supports progressive scan, while PS2 almost always doesn't.

There are still cool non-anti-human games like Panzer Dragoon Orta, Jet Set Future, Outrun 2, Psychonauts, Beyond Good & Evil,

[o.pwuaioc]

Outrun 2 (via 2006), Psychonauts, and Beyond Good and Evil were multiplats. I didn't care for Jet Set Radio, so I never played JSRF.

[Gypsy]

Yeah I replaced my PS2 Capcom classics with the Xbox version awhile back. I need to do the same for Taito Legends. I believe TL2 is EU only for Xbox.

[crazydean]

Related: I don't understand how people keep buying Assassin's Creed games. But yet Ubi is like...15 games deep at this point? Something absurd. It shames yearly sports titles honestly.

Couldn't the same be said for Call Of Duty, Battlefield, Halo, etc?

Also, there were six Mega Man games on the NES alone, so there's nothing new with endless sequels.

I'm not disagreeing that there are too man Assassin's Creed games. I played the first two when they came out, then Black Flag years later. I'd recommend BF if you haven't play an AC game yet.

[bartre]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I hate all of those games. The XB was really good at that stuff, the sort of anti-human style-free depressing brown crap that goes on and on for hundreds of hours. The sort of stuff that now describes almost anything that isn't Nintendo. Oh God, how I hate this kind of shit and all the nearly identical covers with a personality-less bad ass standing in pile of wreckage with a green tint to everything.

You forgot Star Wars: Obi Wan, btw.

Yo guys, don't forget about Otogi 1&2, Kung Fu Chaos (dumb, but fun), Voodoo Vince, and Blinx 1&2.
I really love all of those games, and they've got plenty of color and life to em.

also, how come no one talks about bloodwake? It's Twisted Metal on boats.

[Gypsy]

I remember Blinx annoying me but I did finish it.

[seieienbu]

UPDATE: Bernie just informed me that he had a NEOFLASH cart inserted in his DUO (power switched on) when the plastic housing of his DUO *MELTED*.

Are you talking about the hairdryer thing, or has Bernie actually lost two duos that way?!?

[esteban]

UPDATE: Bernie just informed me that he had a NEOFLASH cart inserted in his DUO (power switched on) when the plastic housing of his DUO *MELTED*.

Are you talking about the hairdryer thing, or has Bernie actually lost two duos that way?!?

Two DUOs

I suspect a THIRD DUO might be in danger as I type this.

Pray.

[SamIAm]

Krikzz just posted this.

db-electronics predicted huge current leaks and flash overheat. According to his prediction, carts without voltage translators should draw 12.5mA current for each IO. OK, so, 16bit databus should draw then 200mA. I made small measurement for old EDMD-v3. I checked full console+cart power consumption, difference was around 25mA total, and this difference mostly due the normal power consumption of own cartridge components.

So, my question is: Where is huge current leaks predicted by db-electronics in his sensational article, or where is large amount of heat? Seriously, i can even make video with thermal camera if somebody still believe in overheating. Just touch chips by fingers and you will feel that all everdrive chips is cold and all console chips just a little warm, same as with original carts.

[ClodBusted]

All of krikzz claims don't matter as long as his stuff is running outside of the specifications.

If he would be as eager redesigning his flash carts to comply with the chip's and console's specs as he is in denying simple facts...

[Psycho Punch]

Argument with solid data and sound theory

vs.

Just touch it with your fingers!

 

[ClodBusted]

Exactly. It's like discussing with "audiophile golden ear" guys - a waste of time and brain cells.

[SamIAm]

But Rene is the one proposing a theory while Krikzz actually measured something.

I mean, we're not going to know until someone checks with an oscilloscope on an IO pin, but there clearly isn't a constant 200mA of extra current being sucked through the data bus. There might be more than 25mA going through there if the components on an Everdrive pull less current off the power rail than a real cart...but I could just as easily believe that the reverse is true, and that that's where the 25mA is coming from.

The next thing I'd be curious to see is how much is consumed during flashing, and how that compares to the ratings on the flash's datasheet.

[ClodBusted]

It doesn't matter what current flow krikzz has measured, since the components are still getting more voltage than the specifications allow.

Also, the components in krikzz' products aren't properly driven by proper components that translate the voltage to the correct levels. Instead, he is relying on ordinary series resistors, and as it turns out these are not the proper design for this purpose. This has been discussed before in this thread.

[SamIAm]

Yeah, but I don't think people are anywhere near as concerned about their Everdrives being damaged by overvoltage as they are about their consoles being damaged by current flowing in large quantities where it shouldn't be.

[ClodBusted]

The console hardware itself suffers too anyway, since there's flow from both console to cart, as well as cart to console.

Please read what Zeta said about it.

[SamIAm]

Wouldn't any signals sent from the flash to the console be at 3.3V, and therefore not cause any overvoltage/overcurrent problems?

The whole theory of Rene's big article is that clamping diodes in Everdrive flash cause shorts when hit with 5V from the console, and that these shorts drain shitloads of current even with resistors in the way. This effect may be true to an extent, but the actual amounts don't seem to be anywhere near the estimates.

[ClodBusted]

From my understanding, the console needs signals upped to 5V again.

Have you read what Zeta said in this thread?

[SamIAm]

Yes. Twice. I don't get what your getting at.

If there isn't too much current being drawn, where is the problem? Where is damage being caused?

Again, nobody really cares about the flash chip in the Everdrive. Those are replaceable and obviously don't have a terribly high failure rate under the current usage.

[ClodBusted]

Dave
July 10, 2017 at 21:11

Krikzz did not do what I would consider to be a good test there – he should have run the game for 30 seconds and then run the same game in the Everdrive. I'm no electrical engineer, but I really suspect that running game code might require a bit more electrical power through the cart instead of a static screen that says that there is no card present – I mean, there is no activity on the cart. But that's just me. I'd be interested to hear Rene's thoughts.

Source: https://db-electronics.ca/2017/07/05/the-dangers-of-3-3v-flash-in-retro-consoles/#comment-2908

[SamIAm]

Yes, I'm curious about that, too.

Would you agree that a game running normally on the Everdrive without a significant increase in current consumption would indicate that there is no trouble?

[ClodBusted]

I'm not enough into digital electronics that I could give you a qualified answer.



However, I can tell you several quirks about Krikzz measurement video:

1. He should have used an oscilloscope to probe into the circuit, since the voltage and current characteristics aren't strictly DC when dealing with digital electronics.
2. He should have shown both voltage and current at the same time - Best done on a 2-channel scope or with one DMM in series and one DMM in parallel. Since he's not showing the voltage readout, he could feed the Everdrive with whatever voltage he feels comfortable with, unbeknownst to the viewer.
3. Uni-T multimeters suck. Here's why.



Also, I think we all can agree on the fact that Krikzz will pull anything out of his head, just to save him from customer claims.

[CrackTiger]

All of krikzz claims don't matter as long as his stuff is running outside of the specifications.

If he would be as eager redesigning his flash carts to comply with the chip's and console's specs as he is in denying simple facts...

I believe that it was his first response in which he said that he has been with new versions and that he agrees about the need for something still not addressed to be taken care of in some of them.

[ClodBusted]

That's good. But this also means Krikzz DOES admit that the majority of his Everdrive designs are bad.
While on the other hand, he STILL tries to make his customer base believe that all concerns are ill-founded.

What a hypocrite.

[SamIAm]

Of course, I would like to see more consoles tested, using more original carts, and with better equipment - good multimeters at least, oscilloscopes if possible.

However, Rene's article was all about how the diode clamps in the Everdrive flash are almost constantly activating and drawing huge, devastating volumes of extra current through vulnerable parts like the CPU. Now, it looks like the effect may not be happening at all, and if it is, it's likely far less severe than Rene estimated. He could have, and should have, tested this theory before publishing. It also would have been good form to get a statement from Krikzz beforehand.

A fellow posted this on his forum:

Just as a test I threw my mega everdrive on my opened test bed and was looking for voltage spiking and temperature issues. Guess what? NOTHING. It's been on for about 3 days now. I have a temperature monitor on it just to see what happens and the temperature variance I'm seeing is +/- .5 degrees C. Completely within the limits. I'm also not seeing any abnormal spikes.

Krikzz also said this about the resistors:

2. Moreover, I highly suspect the addition of R1 comes from a misinterpretation of Altera app note AN258 

R1 comes not from misinterpretation of Altera app note AN258, first of all i used it because directly connected flash works fine for reading, but writing almost always ends with errors.

Optimistically, we could say that it looks like it's never been about protection and always been about accuracy.

It may yet turn out that there is major current being drawn during bus access and that Krikzz is not being forthcoming. A 25mA increase, however, is pretty underwhelming given what Rene was saying. Give me a few more results like that, and I'll continue to use all my old Everdrives without fear.