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AC Power works but Battery Power does not: Turbo Express

Started by Amerika, 09/09/2018, 09:56 AM

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Amerika

Hello again!

Not long ago I restored a Turbo Express that had every issue in the book.  Button not working, no video out, cracked screen, no audio, poor speaker performance, AC power would cut out if you moved the cord to much etc. etc.  I got all of that working perfectly again and I thought I had no issues.  However, during that whole time, I was using an AC Adapter to power the unit and not batteries.  I decided to throw some batteries in it to make sure they worked and...nothing??  And after some troubleshooting I've ruled out a few things and I wanted to ask first to see if anybody else had ran into this issue.

What I've done so far:
1.  I have some Amazon Basics 2400mAh that I was using.  I measured the voltage through the JST connected to the wires coming from the battery compartment.  They are 1.2v batteries and I measured right at 7.2v.  I changed those out for some 1.5v AA batteries and they measured 9v.
2.  I stuck wires into the end of the JST connector to make sure it was making a proper connection to the female end on the TE's board.  They measured out fine.
3.  I changed out all of the caps in the area near the power again.  I didn't know if any were associated with power at all (or why one would be associated with battery power but not the ac adapters) but I did it anyway just to be sure it wasn't a bad cap issue.  No change.
4.  I did notice that there is a coiled inductor that has a bit of loose wire here:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/LFzMzWyyvF3UZibc7 I have no clue if that is connected at all.
5.  Is it possible that the guy that is labeled x500 in this picture, https://photos.app.goo.gl/odrZQ68y4m2iATa47, can go bad?  Or is it even a part of the chain?  The JST hooks in directly under it on the other side of the board but it doesn't look like it's physically connected so it might just be in the area but not connected.
6.  I reflowed everything I could in the area around the female JST.

Is there some trace that might have been messed up for battery power to not make it to where it needs to go?

Thanks in advance.

Amerika

An alternative I guess is to do an internal battery mod that recharges using the AC adapter.  However, Google comes up with already modded TE's being shown off but no instructions thus far.  PCEngineFX search comes up with a few threads on the subject where one has broken links to pictures/how-tos (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=12241.0) and the other by TurboKon (SuperKon) doesn't really have instructions beyond parts needed (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=19910.0).

I checked the stickied thread and it didn't have a link to anything current.  Is there any up to date how-to for this mod or can anybody knowledgeable do a low effort write-up?  If it's a success, I'd be more than happy to write a full tutorial for the sticky with pictures/documentation for people to follow in the future while also giving full credit elsewhere.

NightWolve

Quote from: Amerika on 09/09/2018, 10:22 AMIs there any up to date how-to for this mod or can anybody knowledgeable do a low effort write-up?  If it's a success, I'd be more than happy to write a full tutorial for the sticky with pictures/documentation for people to follow in the future while also giving full credit elsewhere.
It really doesn't work by random request... turbokon and Duo_R (or any random fan) doing guides simply came about by sudden interest to pursue the mod work at the time while deciding to write/post about it on the side to help others should they also one day become interested. It's a spontaneous thing, like my own YPbPr/Component circuit guide, that's not something that would happen by request - I happen to find the interest to explore such an idea, doing it at somebody's request would be "work" I didn't ask for and not very "fun." It was fun/interesting to me at the time and why I went to the trouble.

Amerika

Quote from: NightWolve on 09/09/2018, 11:32 PM
Quote from: Amerika on 09/09/2018, 10:22 AMIs there any up to date how-to for this mod or can anybody knowledgeable do a low effort write-up?  If it's a success, I'd be more than happy to write a full tutorial for the sticky with pictures/documentation for people to follow in the future while also giving full credit elsewhere.
It really doesn't work by random request... turbokon and Duo_R (or any random fan) doing guides simply came about by sudden interest to pursue the mod work at the time while deciding to write/post about it on the side to help others should they also one day become interested. It's a spontaneous thing, like my own YPbPr/Component circuit guide, that's not something that would happen by request - I happen to find the interest to explore such an idea, doing it at somebody's request would be "work" I didn't ask for and not very "fun." It was fun/interesting to me at the time and why I went to the trouble.
I am very confused by this.  I asked to see if somebody knew of an existing write-up and could point me at it.  Failing that, I asked if somebody could spend a couple of minutes telling me the parts needed and exactly what needs to be re-wired.  I already have a pretty solid idea but I'd like some confirmation.  No photos or diagrams or anything crazy...just a few minutes of time IF another source didn't already exist that I have not found yet.  I then offered to do a better write-up and document the mod to my TE since it didn't seem like one for such a good mod existed and that's a shame.

I am not requesting a detailed write-up, I'm offering to do one after getting a bit of direction from some people that have done it since those details don't seem to exist (please correct me if i'm wrong).  I have documented a few mods so far and most were by request.

I feel like you completely misread my post.

NightWolve

You asked, "can anybody knowledgeable do a low effort write-up?" and that is what I answered. That sounds like guide grunt work to me and on a mod a total of ~2 people have done here in this forum's history which the search feature already answered for you... I would've suggested turbokon's thread at first glance as that's the most work I ever saw on the idea, but you already dismissed it as lacking instructions beyond parts needed.

Anyway, you can PM either DuoR or turbokon to see if they're willing to share more details - the odds of the only 1-2 people here that did that mod seeing your thread may be a long wait.

Amerika

Quote from: NightWolve on 09/10/2018, 01:06 AMYou asked, "can anybody knowledgeable do a low effort write-up?" and that is what I answered. That sounds like guide grunt work to me and on a mod a total of ~2 people have done here in this forum's history which the search feature already answered for you... I would've suggested turbokon's thread at first glance as that's the most work I ever saw on the idea, but you already dismissed it as lacking instructions beyond parts needed.

Anyway, you can PM either DuoR or turbokon to see if they're willing to share more details - the odds of the only 1-2 people here that did that mod seeing your thread way be a long wait.
There is a difference between asking a few questions for clarity and asking somebody to spend hours putting together a long tutorial guide/video (which is literally what I offered to do).  I did PM turboken actually.  I just assumed that the mod was fairly common and multiple people would have knowledge so I made a thread here after my own searching didn't yield results.

Anyway, let's stop derailing the thread please.  I posted for some help with my battery issue and the mod is just a side thing.  Thanks.

Amerika

Update:  Issue resolved...I now have battery power working :)

After testing the JST connection to make sure it got proper voltage, I decided to pick off even more of that god forsaken epoxy because I noticed that one of the inductor coils looked like it wasn't quite right.  You can sort of see it here:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/8NwqABa2HWAEkRnWA

I pulled them out and sure enough one of them looked busted and the other didn't look great.  I already had replacements on hand since apparently these are common failure points when removing epoxy but it's not stated what they control and, up until now, I thought they were just fine and replacing them would be pointless.  Egg on my face, heh.  Here is a picture with the two replacements from console5 on top and the ones I pulled on the bottom.  https://photos.app.goo.gl/PpAizswV8PD55D199

Look mom, no wires!  https://photos.app.goo.gl/7wrAy3QpZubfWTSQ9

If anybody is interested, this is the beginning to end photo album with comments per picture on the restoration.  https://photos.app.goo.gl/p1y8TQbUKeH4k9Tx7

I am still interested in that battery mod though :)

NightWolve

I would've suggested a "hackish" solution, taking the positive battery red wire and bypassing it to the external power input supply -- since it was working with an AC adapter -- rather than sending it off to an EE pro (upon giving up) if it was something serious like a regulator/transistor-switch/whatever as the cost in S/H, service, etc. wouldn't be worth it if you couldn't solve it in a DIY effort.

The drawback is making sure to always use rechargeable NiMH batteries, and not alkaline, to avoid an accidental recharge if disposable batteries are left in the battery compartment when using the AC adapter. You could use a forward diode on the positive battery line to prevent a recharge on alkaline batteries, but that causes a .5 voltage drop... But yeah, the whole idea is "hackish" - it's just something I might've done rather than pay/ship it to thesteve to solve it (if that was my only problem).

Anyway, it's cool you were able to identify the problem yourself with these inductor coils, I don't think I ever heard about them failing, so it's always good to see troubleshooting identify new issues like this which could possibly help others.



Some thoughts about the rechargeable battery mod or rather avoiding it:  I'm wondering if we should just wait a little longer for Lithium-Ion AA rechargeable batteries to hit the market or perhaps the next battery formula that is on the horizon instead of making permanent, often destructive changes to one-of-a-kind retro hardware ??

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=18650&_sacat=0

I purchased 4 of those 18650 Lithium-Ion batteries to power a portable MP3 player, and it made me wonder, where are the regular AA versions finally ??

Would one just be better off waiting for a good rechargeable AA solution is the thing... NiMH is NOT that solution, I wasted money on those, a 15 minute charger, and have a lifelong history of wasting money on rechargers since my teens for NiCD, even Buddy-L which billed itself as giving you possibly up to 10-15 recharges on traditional disposable Alkaline batteries (heh, I fell for that garbage)... I even tried Rayovac's supposed safe rechargable Alkalines and it just ALL plainly sucked... :(

Lithium-Ion is pretty good, at least, but even that battery formula suffers after a couple of years. I'm glad it's replaced NiCD/NiMH for power tools though, definitely a good improvement!

thesteve

odds are its just a dirty power jack, but could be something more obvious

Amerika

Quote from: NightWolve on 09/15/2018, 03:04 PMI would've suggested a "hackish" solution, taking the positive battery red wire and bypassing it to the external power input supply -- since it was working with an AC adapter -- rather than sending it off to an EE pro (upon giving up) if it was something serious like a regulator/transistor-switch/whatever as the cost in S/H, service, etc. wouldn't be worth it if you couldn't solve it in a DIY effort.

The drawback is making sure to always use rechargeable NiMH batteries, and not alkaline, to avoid an accidental recharge if disposable batteries are left in the battery compartment when using the AC adapter. You could use a forward diode on the positive battery line to prevent a recharge on alkaline batteries, but that causes a .5 voltage drop... But yeah, the whole idea is "hackish" - it's just something I might've done rather than pay/ship it to thesteve to solve it (if that was my only problem).

Anyway, it's cool you were able to identify the problem yourself with these inductor coils, I don't think I ever heard about them failing, so it's always good to see troubleshooting identify new issues like this which could possibly help others.



Some thoughts about the rechargeable battery mod or rather avoiding it:  I'm wondering if we should just wait a little longer for Lithium-Ion AA rechargeable batteries to hit the market or perhaps the next battery formula that is on the horizon instead of making permanent, often destructive changes to one-of-a-kind retro hardware ??

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=18650&_sacat=0

I purchased 4 of those 18650 Lithium-Ion batteries to power a portable MP3 player, and it made me wonder, where are the regular AA versions finally ??

Would one just be better off waiting for a good rechargeable AA solution is the thing... NiMH is NOT that solution, I wasted money on those, a 15 minute charger, and have a lifelong history of wasting money on rechargers since my teens for NiCD, even Buddy-L which billed itself as giving you possibly up to 10-15 recharges on traditional disposable Alkaline batteries (heh, I fell for that garbage)... I even tried Rayovac's supposed safe rechargable Alkalines and it just ALL plainly sucked... :(

Lithium-Ion is pretty good, at least, but even that battery formula suffers after a couple of years. I'm glad it's replaced NiCD/NiMH for power tools though, definitely a good improvement!
I did a quick search and there is some 1.5v AA Lithium-ion batteries out there for purchase.  But they look very unproven haha.  I do agree, that would be optimal to get a new battery solution (since our battery tech is still partly stuck in the 70's).  I currently have 2400mAh batteries in it and that works.  I was just hoping that a non-destructive mod existed that would help reduce weight more than anything else.  TE's with 6 AA's in them are sort of heavy to hold after a while!

And yeah, I am glad about the inductor coils being the issue.  I pity anybody who wants to remove/install them without a heat gun though, heh.

Amerika

Quote from: thesteve on 09/16/2018, 02:27 AModds are its just a dirty power jack, but could be something more obvious
I'm not quite sure who you are responding to here :)

thesteve

the battery power not working is normally from tarnish in the external power jack

Amerika

Quote from: thesteve on 09/21/2018, 02:36 AMthe battery power not working is normally from tarnish in the external power jack
The jack was replaced and was working flawlessly while still having no power from the batteries.  It turned out to be the tiny inductor coils (or one of them) which I wrote about above.

Also, the power from the batteries doesn't appear to be routed through the external jack.  So that is interesting that tarnish in the jack would cause no power from the batteries.  I guess I can measure voltage and see myself when I get home.

NightWolve

I seem to remember the original jack would mechanically disconnect the + line from the battery compartment to prevent a recharge while causing a reroute of power from the AC/DC adapter when it's plugged into place as expected. IF my memory serves, that's what he's referring to.

So when you disconnect the power plug, a contact pin/metal bends back in place to restore the line to the batteries (if dirty, though, poor contact was a problem). But yeah, if true, it wasn't designed with a digital/electronic transistor/diode switch or whatever you'd have to use to prevent a recharge when external power is plugged in.

thesteve

1 pole of battery is routed through the Jack as NightWolve just said
The indicators are fragile and often get decapitated when someone digs in the sealant