PC Engine AV Mod

[Spector]

Yeah I want S-video at the very least on my Genesis and Duo, the colors are just so much more vibrant.  I definitely want RGB on my Saturn and Dreamcast though.

I'm planning on getting one of those RGB trancoder things that outputs S-Video, since I still want to play classic consoles on regular TVs and my capture card doesn't do component. If I can't get a 2-in-1, I'll also pick up one that does component later on to play stuff on my projector.

GUTS, you can get Dreamcast VGA adaptors pretty cheap and nearly all DC games support progressive scan.

As far as TE/GT is concerned: I never said I am opposed to repairing hardware! As long as hardware is repaired to regain the original specifications, I'm happy.

As far as I'm concerned, the Turbo's composite quality is a defect, like the TE/GT sound issue its not a system destroying one, but like the TE/GT sound problem, fixing it only improves the game experience.

But like I've said before, if someone wants to play Duo games on a black & white TV while standing on their head, thats their business. 
 

The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.

Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...

My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.

The point is that there is no standard original specification for game consoles.

I think that allowing Duo games to appear as colorful as they really are is just one more "medium".

As for the range of TV quality, every TV is different and each one radically changes the Duo's original specifications.

You know a lot more about the PC Engine than I do, that's for sure, and maybe for the PC Engine, RGB really is better. To repeat myself though, there are two problems I have with that:
Firstly, the Sinclair ZX Spectrum computer looks far better in RF than RGB, and I'm guessing that's not the only computer/console this applies to.
Secondly, I am (as you may guess by my username) a big fan of Phil Spector's music. All of his great records are in mono. They have been re-released in stereo, which increases the detail and separation so you can hear more of the actual production elements... and they all sound ten times worse. I'm thinking that the rules of sound could also be the rules for vision. That's certainly true for the Spectrum, and I've got a suspicion that it's true for the PC Engine and other 80s consoles as well. But of course, I'm not sure.

Damn, I wish I could see RGB and Composite side by side!   

[CrackTiger]

You know a lot more about the PC Engine than I do, that's for sure, and maybe for the PC Engine, RGB really is better. To repeat myself though, there are two problems I have with that:
Firstly, the Sinclair ZX Spectrum computer looks far better in RF than RGB, and I'm guessing that's not the only computer/console this applies to.
Secondly, I am (as you may guess by my username) a big fan of Phil Spector's music. All of his great records are in mono. They have been re-released in stereo, which increases the detail and separation so you can hear more of the actual production elements... and they all sound ten times worse. I'm thinking that the rules of sound could also be the rules for vision. That's certainly true for the Spectrum, and I've got a suspicion that it's true for the PC Engine and other 80s consoles as well. But of course, I'm not sure.

Damn, I wish I could see RGB and Composite side by side!   

But I'm not even talking RGB. I'm talking about getting the mod to fix the color drain and then outputting it in composite, s-video or whatever you want.

With the mod, composite looks as colorful/vibrant as S-Video, RGB & emulation, but you can still enjoy all those artifacts and blurriness you crave-

http://superpcenginegrafx.com/video666.html

[Spector]

Oh right. 
Well, you can mod mine when I get it! Cause no-one else is answering my bloody emails...

[Seldane]

Remember that an RGB mod will allow you to use both RGB and composite. Win-win situation (or in my case, win-lose -  as I'd never torture myself with composite and I don't even want to have that option).

[esteban]

As far as I'm concerned, the Turbo's composite quality is a defect, like the TE/GT sound issue its not a system destroying one, but like the TE/GT sound problem, fixing it only improves the game experience.

But like I've said before, if someone wants to play Duo games on a black & white TV while standing on their head, thats their business. 

Ahhh, but that's my point! Defect or not, we should be able to appreciate the aesthetic qualities of the composite video that the mass-produced consoles provided. I think we are talking past each other because you keep listing lots of reasons that "justify" a system modification, whereas I keep saying that the so-called "defects" and "flaws" in the hardware are crucial elements of video game aesthetics.

Go back to my old post when I talked about "purity" -- I was addressing Joe at the time, but now it applies to you as well: you want to unleash the purity that has been trapped in the PCE for all these years. You see it as a "potential" that was never fully realized.

I have no interest in this quest for the "cleanest video signal". I'm searching for a purity of a different sort: historically accurate aesthetics.

You and Joe (and most folks, I should add) viewpoint of a contemporary technician , whereas my perspective is more akin to that of an art historian.

I'm not saying my viewpoint is better! I'm simply asking for folks to acknowledge that "art historian" is a valid, useful perspective to take, since most folks laugh when I mention it .
 

The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.

Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...

My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.

The point is that there is no standard original specification for game consoles.

I think that allowing Duo games to appear as colorful as they really are is just one more "medium".

As for the range of TV quality, every TV is different and each one radically changes the Duo's original specifications.

Well, yes and no. I agree that there is no "narrow" standard. However, this is easilly solved by having an inclusive defintion, as I have been arguing since my first post in this thread. I made the argument that there is a standard original specification for game consoles: it is defined by the range of over-the-counter hardware available to customers. Think of it as the "officially-sanctioned canon."

See? It really is straightforward. Even when we have an item like GB, which underwent a series of changes and evolutions, we can still identify distinct specifications with distinct eras in its lifespan.

The PCE / TG-16 began life as RF. Upgrades to the original models added A/V. Second generation+ PCE's were A/V out of the box. CD-ROM systems were A/V as well. This really isn't a confusing or contradictory range of specifications.

It's not hard to define the official canon. Repairing a PCE or GT/TE so that it regains what it lost is fine. Modifying a PCE so that it exceeds the official canon is where I draw the line.

---------------
Anyway, I think we both understand each other; we simply have different perspectives and different goals. Right?

[Joe Redifer]

Yes!  Our goals are to experience all the PCE has to offer.  Your goal is to limit yourself to what the kids who have it hooked up to channel 3 see.  I bet when I die I will go to a higher level of Heaven because God will love me more than you because I bet God likes RGB.   

[Keranu]

Yes!  Our goals are to experience all the PCE has to offer.  Your goal is to limit yourself to what the kids who have it hooked up to channel 3 see.  I bet when I die I will go to a higher level of Heaven because God will love me more than you because I bet God likes RGB.   

God prefers people to use what the consoles were originally intended to use, not to alter his creation .

[Joe Redifer]

God did not create the TurboGrafx/PC Engine.  God was busy working for Mattel at that time.

[Keranu]

God did not create the TurboGrafx/PC Engine.  God was busy working for Mattel at that time.

No god sent prophet Moses to work at Mattel for him since he was busy designing the TG16 hardware. God working for Mattel was just a myth.

[Tatsujin]

God prefers people to use what the consoles were originally intended to use, not to alter his creation .

but why the PCE lineup was always RGB-restricted products, when the MD or SFC wasn't? i may understand, that a core grafx made in '88 didn't support RGB neither S-Video, since those weren't standards at that time, but when the DUO came out, they really should rethink about their video-outputs. really!!

[Joe Redifer]

Actually when I first saw what looked like a DIN-8 on the Duo my first thought was that it was the same jack that was on the Genesis and Neo Geo.  But then I saw a composite video and stereo audio cable plug into it and I knew that it was proprietary.  Still if they used a real DIN-8, they would have enough pins left over to offer s-video at the very least!

[Tatsujin]

Still if they used a real DIN-8, they would have enough pins left over to offer s-video at the very least!

but what they didn't and for what i hate them the most and forever!

[Seldane]

I've modified my DUO-R that it has a DIN-8 instead and it is compatible with the standard PCE composite cords as well as my own custom RGB one. They should've designed it that way, those madmen.

[PCEngineHell]

God did not create the TurboGrafx/PC Engine.  God was busy working for Mattel at that time.

I think your refering to Tom,and if so,yes he is GOD,and 2,he was rebuilding Matchbox at the time.

[Buster D]

I already have my Duo-R modded to output S-Video, I was thinking about getting an RGB mod for it as well but I discovered there are ways to get the 240p signal without it if you have a capture card and use the "DScaler" freeware, which has an "Old Game" deinterlacing mode to combine the proper parts of the fields to give you 240p, up to 60fps video game goodness upscaled on your PC monitor (or HDTV if your TV accepts VGA or DVI, or if you have a video card with component out, or if you have a VGA to component transcoder).  This also works with Saturn, SNES, and PS1 games (not PS2 or most DC games though).  There are also some standalone scalers that will properly deinterlace the 480i signal to a 240p one, but they're expensive and they sometimes have delay problems, as do some HDTVs.

[Joe Redifer]

Your Duo is always 240p until some device (like an HDTV or a capture card) interprets it as 480i.  Those devices don't know what 240p is, so that's why they do what they do.  I don't think it would be too great for the signal to be interlaced from 240p into 480i and then deinterlaced back to 240p.  That's just too much screwing with the signal in my opinion.

[Buster D]

From what I understand, the way a 240p signal works is that instead of displaying it as 480 lines split into 60 alternating fields every second, the 240 lines from each field are their own frame and aren't alternating like when they're displayed on a TV.  On DScaler's Old Game mode, they're rendered as 720x240 progressive frames and then upscaled to fill your monitor or HDTV.  On old RGB monitors, a 4:3 60fps progressive image is shown with scanlines inbetween the 240 lines of video data, but they don't alternate and create flicker like on a regular TV.

So I don't think a game console has to do anything special to make a 240p signal into a 480i one, the frames are just alternated between the top 240 lines and bottom 240 lines instead of being shown on the same 240 lines.  An RGB cable will give you slightly better quality than S-Video since the red/green/blue colors are all sent separately instead of just the chroma and luma, but if your display is properly deinterlacing a 240p signal sent over S-Video, you won't see a great difference compared to RGB.  Similarly, there's not much difference in quality between a 480i signal over S-Video and a 480i signal over component (composite is another matter, of course).

[Spector]

Similarly, there's not much difference in quality between a 480i signal over S-Video and a 480i signal over component (composite is another matter, of course).

True, but by how much is composite different?
Here are some shots taken from my TV of my AV modded PC Engine and an emulator running from my Xbox. Which is the AV picture and which is the SCART derived emulator screen?

The crap quality pictures (I tried my best, honest) don't help, I admit.

[Seldane]

Bottom pics are from the Xbox.

[Spector]

Incorrect!   

[Seldane]

Are you using rgb with it?

[Joe Redifer]

There is a flag in the 480i video signal that tells the CRT to advance to the next field.  A 240p signal simply removes that flag.  It is 60 progressive frames per second on a 240p signal, running at up to 720x243.  It is easy to interlace a 240p signal, yes, but it is pointless unless every 1/60th of a second is one half of a picture, therefore resulting in the resolution increase that 480i provides over 240p.  If every 1/60th of a second is the entire picture, it will just look blocky and therefore like complete ass.

The best way is just to play old game systems on SDTVs and not HDTVs.  My SDTV has a component input and it looks RGB quality, easily.  Also someone said that component isn't much better than s-video.  I beg to differ.  S-video is still limited to NTSC color, component is not.  Reds look much better over component (depending on your set, of course).  With s-video, the red hearts and stuff like that in Super Duper Castlevania IV on the SNES still have color bleed to the right on every TV I've ever tried.  Completely gone with RGB/component.  If your source is compressed all to hell like DVD, then yeah component won't look amazingly great.  But if the source is RGB, then hell yeah it will! 

[Keranu]

We're going in loops now .

[Buster D]

There is a flag in the 480i video signal that tells the CRT to advance to the next field.  A 240p signal simply removes that flag.  It is 60 progressive frames per second on a 240p signal, running at up to 720x243.  It is easy to interlace a 240p signal, yes, but it is pointless unless every 1/60th of a second is one half of a picture, therefore resulting in the resolution increase that 480i provides over 240p. 

I don't get what you're saying here... sending a 240p signal as 480i doesn't really increase the resolution, it just shows the lines at alternating intervals.

If every 1/60th of a second is the entire picture, it will just look blocky and therefore like complete ass.

Seeing the pixels doesn't bother me really, and if it did the flicker from a CRT SDTV would bother me more.  As for 60 frames per second, that's a good thing as lots of games are rendered that way, especially arcade games and arcade ports.

The best way is just to play old game systems on SDTVs and not HDTVs.  My SDTV has a component input and it looks RGB quality, easily.  Also someone said that component isn't much better than s-video.  I beg to differ.  S-video is still limited to NTSC color, component is not.  Reds look much better over component (depending on your set, of course).  With s-video, the red hearts and stuff like that in Super Duper Castlevania IV on the SNES still have color bleed to the right on every TV I've ever tried.  Completely gone with RGB/component.  If your source is compressed all to hell like DVD, then yeah component won't look amazingly great.  But if the source is RGB, then hell yeah it will! 

I think that's more a problem with the TVs than the signal.  I don't see any bleeding reds when S-Video is input to my computer monitor through my capture card (actually it's the PDI Deluxe aka Sweetspot, it's more of a card meant for watching external inputs on a PC).  All of my video game systems outputting S-Video look just as good as the Component from my PS2, which the card also accepts.

[Joe Redifer]

Well, I think you're confusing a lot of what I was saying.  I never said a line-doubled 240p signal increased resolution.  Please point out where I said that.  Instead, I said it would look twice as blocky and more craptastic.  If you like crap, then you'll love 240p shown as 480i.  With REAL interlacing, where both fields are separate halves of the picture, then yes, the perceived resolution increases.  There is no flicker in a real 240p image n a CRT TV.

Please post some pictures captured from s-video of Super Duper Castlevania IV with lots of floating hearts on the screen.  Like I said, s-video is still limited to NTSC color space, which the entire world agrees isn't exactly the best.

[Buster D]

Well, I think you're confusing a lot of what I was saying.  I never said a line-doubled 240p signal increased resolution.

I'm not talking about line doubling.  I'm saying that when a 240p signal is sent as 480i, the exact same video lines are still present and can be displayed as 240p with the proper equipment.  A 240p signal sent as 480i isn't quite the same as a 480p signal interlaced to 480i.

There is no flicker in a real 240p image n a CRT TV.

If it's an interlaced display and not a monitor or EDTV(480p) or HDTV, then yes, there will be flicker on a CRT.  That's how interlacing works.

Please post some pictures captured from s-video of Super Duper Castlevania IV with lots of floating hearts on the screen. 

I don't currently have a SFC, but I might be able to fill a request for a PCE game through S-Video.

Like I said, s-video is still limited to NTSC color space, which the entire world agrees isn't exactly the best.

Does this matter for the systems that output 240p?  Are there old video game systems that output colors that aren't in NTSC?

[Joe Redifer]

OK.  Please go find out more about NTSC technology.  Until then I will not debate with you on this issue here beyond this post.  But I will try to say some stuff one last time:

I'm not talking about line doubling.  I'm saying that when a 240p signal is sent as 480i, the exact same video lines are still present and can be displayed as 240p with the proper equipment.  A 240p signal sent as 480i isn't quite the same as a 480p signal interlaced to 480i.

I never said anything about a 480p signal.  Where did you get that? But for all intents and purposes, 240p sent as 480i looks much blockier than regular 240p, since the space between the scanlines is filled with the lines directly above it.

If it's an interlaced display and not a monitor or EDTV(480p) or HDTV, then yes, there will be flicker on a CRT.  That's how interlacing works.

And that's why it's called 240p.  The 'p' is for 'progressive'.  And yes, that means progressive scan on just about any regular SDTV in the entire world.  All NES, SMS, TG-16, Genesis ('cept the two-player mode in Sonic 2), SNES and most Saturn & PS1 games all run at 240p.  No interlacing.  None.  Zero.  Zip.  Are there any more synonyms I can use for "None"?  That's right, the SDTV is displaying a progressive image.  Notice the scanlines between each line?  Yup.  Notice the flicker?  Nope, you don't.  If you're seeing interlace flicker from the systems I just mentioned above (with the exception of several Saturn and PS1 games), then your TV is doing something wrong.  On many of the the Sega Ages collections in Japan, there is even a 240p option to play the games in the original resolution.  Why would this be there along with a 480i option if 240p was alwasy sent as an interlaced signal?  Answer:  Because 240p is not an interlaced signal, and if it were it wouldn't be 240p.  It is not officially recognized since it is not used in transmission of over-the-air signals (though it could be).

Does this matter for the systems that output 240p?  Are there old video game systems that output colors that aren't in NTSC?

It's not about "how many" colors NTSC can produce, it's about how well it produces those colors.  I could go into a long discussion about NTSC color bandwidth, and how it doesn't have much space.  But instead I'll just say that the luma (B&W) portion of the signal gets a lot more space than the combined red, green blue, etc get.  PAL has much better color space than NTSC and therefore the color looks much better.  Component video is free from all of this nonsense, but it has goofiness of it's own.  It does not transmit the color green.  But fortunately the way component video works, there is no theoretical loss from raw RGB.  If there is a loss, it is likely the monitor where it is being veiwed.  I have seen some Samsung and Sony SDTVs where component video looked absolutely horrible.

OK I'm done.

[Buster D]

I never said anything about a 480p signal.  Where did you get that?

I was making a comparison between the interlacing done on a 240p signal (each frame's 240 lines are simply sent as a 480i field, which is 240 lines of actual information) vs a 480p image interlaced to 480i, which looses information.

But for all intents and purposes, 240p sent as 480i looks much blockier than regular 240p, since the space between the scanlines is filled with the lines directly above it.

This does not apply to equipment such as a PC running DScaler in Old Game mode or a standalone deinterlacer that can properly create a 240p frame from a 480i field.

And that's why it's called 240p.  The 'p' is for 'progressive'.  And yes, that means progressive scan on just about any regular SDTV in the entire world.

I didn't know that TVs could recognize a 240p signal without confusing it for an 480i one (except maybe in Europe, but I don't know much about their situation), but I'll take your word for it. You have the RGB signal transcoded to YPbPr component, right?  What transcoder do you use?  What's the model of your TV?

On many of the the Sega Ages collections in Japan, there is even a 240p option to play the games in the original resolution. 

Which one?  I was thinking about getting some of them eventually, I can pick it up in Akihabara on the way home from work someday.

Why would this be there along with a 480i option if 240p was alwasy sent as an interlaced signal? 

I never said that it was.  However, the resolution lines when it's sent as 480i are exactly the same as 240p, because a 480i field has 240 active lines and they can be easily combined to make a 240p image, such as when using DScaler.  This software takes very little CPU processing in Old Game mode, and in addition has no detectable lag (unless introduced by the capture card), unlike many standalone deinterlacers and scalers in HDTVs.  I can perform moves in fighting games with exact precision.  I'm sure your setup has no lag either though.

It's not about "how many" colors NTSC can produce, it's about how well it produces those colors.  I could go into a long discussion about NTSC color bandwidth, and how it doesn't have much space.  But instead I'll just say that the luma (B&W) portion of the signal gets a lot more space than the combined red, green blue, etc get.  PAL has much better color space than NTSC and therefore the color looks much better.  Component video is free from all of this nonsense, but it has goofiness of it's own.  It does not transmit the color green.  But fortunately the way component video works, there is no theoretical loss from raw RGB.

Yes, RGB and component cables will give you slightly better color quality than S-Video, but it's not a huge improvement like the kind you get going from composite to S-Video (or better), especially since the human eye is much more sensitive to light/dark differences in video than color.

[Spector]

Are you using rgb with it?

Yeah, but to be fair, the photos are having a strange effect on the pictures, blurring them somehow, and it's hard to tell. The composite photos have good colour though in general, though not as much of it!
Guess again...   

[Joe Redifer]

each frame's 240 lines are simply sent as a 480i field, which is 240 lines of actual information

Very true, but it looks much worse when it is displayed as 480i instead of 240p.

You have the RGB signal transcoded to YPbPr component, right ?  What transcoder do you use ?  What's the model of your TV ?

This one:

(Note that I added audio to it)

The TV that I use for SD games is a Toshiba 20"... I forget the exact model and am too lazy to walk downstairs and look.  But it's actually made by Sansui or something like that and they also make Panasonic's in the same size range, and they'll give you the same picture.  The reds are incredibly good and there are no vertical stripes in dithered screens (like some stuff from Ys on the SMS) like there are on the Sony TVs I tried (and took back).

Which one ?

I believe that both Space Harrier and SDI do this.  Maybe Quartet but I'm not sure... I'd have to power it up and check.

Yes, RGB and component cables will give you slightly better color quality than S-Video...

Depends.  To a discerning eye, it is quite the improvement.  But the reason s-video seems so much better is simply because composite sucks so bad.  In Midnight Resistance for the Genesis, the text on the item/weapon containers between rounds is much more readable on component than it is in s-video, which itself is a hell of a lot more readable than composite.  I can take new comparison pictures of that part if you like.

[Buster D]

each frame's 240 lines are simply sent as a 480i field, which is 240 lines of actual information

Very true, but it looks much worse when it is displayed as 480i instead of 240p.

On what are you basing this opinion?  What specific setups have you seen 480i properly deinterlaced to the original 240p frames?  I play my systems regularly through this method on my 22" Mitsubishi CRT monitor from 2004, and there is no easily visible loss in quality compared to PS1 games played on my PS2 hooked up through component, nor do Dreamcast games played through VGA look significantly better.

 

But the reason s-video seems so much better is simply because composite sucks so bad.  In Midnight Resistance for the Genesis, the text on the item/weapon containers between rounds is much more readable on component than it is in s-video, which itself is a hell of a lot more readable than composite.  I can take new comparison pictures of that part if you like.

When you use S-Video, unlike what DScaler does your display isn't taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying it as 240p, so comparison pictures from it wouldn't be of any use to this discussion.

[PCEngineHell]

This is kind a a old argument,and the visual improvement of Component over S-Video is going to def depend from tv to tv. Some tvs produce great component AND great S-video,and some Tvs produce great Component and average S-video,and some produce horrible Component and great S-video. From this standpoint its pointless to argue about it. Almost everyones SDTV build quality is different.

[Seldane]

The quality differs, yes - but unless the tv is broken - component will always look better than s-video. Always.

[Spector]

With regards to the images I showed, pic A of Alien Crush and pic B of Victory Run are from the emulator.

[PCEngineHell]

The quality differs, yes - but unless the tv is broken - component will always look better than s-video. Always.

Thats a completely untrue remark. Although rare there are tvs where the component is just horrible and the s-video it produces is better,because of poor design and parts used for the Component handling. And there are Tvs where the S-video is pretty much on par with Component. I think Jrok even addressed this issue somewhere once. If you messed with Superguns,and consolizing more you'd know this. Sony esp has been able to pump out alot of crap tvs that produce both S-video and Component and the Component was just done wrong and looked slightly worse when compared to its S-video or was perfect in Component and the S-video was horrible.

[Joe Redifer]

On what are you basing this opinion?  What specific setups have you seen 480i properly deinterlaced to the original 240p frames?

My eyeballs.  I can see.  You seem to think that I have a huge array of scalers and whatnot.  I do not.  Why would I?  I play 480p and higher capable systems on my HDTV.  I play 240p-only systems on a TV that can properly show 240p without the BS.  When I plug my 240p systems into my capture device, it displays it as a 480i signal.  It looks much worse.  Same when I plug a 240p system into my HDTV.  There is no need for me to have a 240p-480i-240p setup when I can just play in the original unraped 240p to begin with.  You seem to think that having a scaler is the ONLY way to play these games.  Anything else in incomprehensible.

When you use S-Video, unlike what DScaler does your display isn't taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying it as 240p, so comparison pictures from it wouldn't be of any use to this discussion.

The comparison pictures would show that S-video doesn't look as good as component.  I don't give a single living fuck about your Dscaler.  I just know I have quality on my SDTV that s-video cannot match, period.  As I have said before I have seen SNES s-video displayed on many different (key word there, sparky) different televisions and they always have bleeding reds to some degree.  But then again you didn't even know what 240p really was, so how can I expect you to grasp this?

I agree with Mike H. about the recent Sony SDTVs.

[PCEngineHell]

You know, could also have a tad to do with the chip used to produce the S-video on the Snes,or the red color line needing to be toned down before it is sent with green and blue to the encoder chip used. I also didn't really notice the red problem on Snes so much,but I didn't really play Snes enough in S-video. Also in a way Joe is lucky. Using a smaller screen for gaming is less problematic when it comes to SDTV's.

The larger the screen,the more problems you will see in the picture clarity and color alot of times. I tend to really despise anything past 25-27 inchs because of this. I should probably pick up a couple more SDTV sets for storage for when my current one I am using for games dies.

I also think Buster D can take Dscaler and stick it up his ass. I know he thinks hes being all techie and cool and leet by running his game systems into his computer,but honestly,its not leet,or cool,and its the poorest choice to run your favorite older game systems. And the difference between S-video and VGA on Dreamcast is night and day. The majority of software for Dreamcast was designed around Super VGA quality picture,not SDTV interlaced.  All the games that support VGA look way way better in VGA. The color is correct,the detail is all there,the picture is cleaner and worlds sharper.

I cant even believe it was suggested that DC Super VGA is not much better then S-video. Laughable.

[Joe Redifer]

Dreamcast in VGA is awesome.  I transcode my DC's VGA into component and play it in 480p and it looks great, but pure VGA still wins.  Unless you happen to playing certain Capcom fighters where the sprites are very low res compared to the BGs.

[Buster D]

On what are you basing this opinion?  What specific setups have you seen 480i properly deinterlaced to the original 240p frames?

My eyeballs.  I can see.  You seem to think that I have a huge array of scalers and whatnot.  I do not. 

If you're only comparing a 240p signal sent as-is to a 480i signal displayed as-is instead of back to 240p, then you aren't making a valid comparison. 

But I guess people would rather flame and swear at me than make the comparison for themselves.  Fair enough.

[Buster D]

I also think Buster D can take Dscaler and stick it up his ass. I know he thinks hes being all techie and cool and leet by running his game systems into his computer,but honestly,its not leet,or cool,and its the poorest choice to run your favorite older game systems.

Have you seen a console through S-Video using Old Game mode of DScaler for yourself, or are you basing this on others' opinions?  I don't really care what people think about me, but my setup is an easy solution for many, and is most likely easier for most than getting a secondary or new TV.  If people don't like it after trying it and want something better, that's fine, but I see little point in saying it's the worst way to display video games without giving any reason.

And the difference between S-video and VGA on Dreamcast is night and day. The majority of software for Dreamcast was designed around Super VGA quality picture,not SDTV interlaced.  All the games that support VGA look way way better in VGA. The color is correct,the detail is all there,the picture is cleaner and worlds sharper.

Naturally the details are all there and motion certianly looks better since it's a 640x480 uninterlaced image and not the same image sent as 480i and then deinterlaced.  I should've specified that I was just referring to the color quality, which isn't a massive step up from S-Video.

I cant even believe it was suggested that DC Super VGA is not much better then S-video. Laughable.

Dreamcast outputs 640x480 (or half that depending on the game IIRC).  Super VGA usually refers to 800x600 (edit: and 1078x768 as well I believe).

[Joe Redifer]

If you're only comparing a 240p signal sent as-is to a 480i signal displayed as-is instead of back to 240p, then you aren't making a valid comparison. 

But I guess people would rather flame and swear at me than make the comparison for themselves.  Fair enough.

I seem angry/pissed/whatever only because you are being sooooo dense.  I am talking about 240p as 240p compared to 240p sent as 480i.  That's what I've been saying all along, but for some reason you don't seem to be able to comprehend this.  I am making a valid comparison because 240p sent as 480i looks like ass compared to 240p as 240p.  Like I said, I have no reason to convert 240p to 480i and back to 240p again when I can just leave it at 240p to begin with.  But again I imagine this does not fit your logic, and somehow I am talking nonsense.

[Buster D]

And what I've been saying all along is that 240p sent as 480i can be perfectly displayed back as 240p again.  You seem to think there's an inherent quality loss from this.  There isn't.

[Joe Redifer]

Nope. Never said that.  I am saying that looking at the TV screen (the device commonly used to display video images) with a 240p signal displayed as 240p looks better than the same signal displayed as 480i.  I am also saying that I'd have to be a moron to take 240p, convert it to 480i only to convert it back to 240p again.  I could understand converting it to a 480p signal with fake scanlines so it looks like 240p on an HDTV, but the 240p-to-480i-to-240p is about as retarded as painting my black car white just so I can paint it black again right away.

That is the LAST time I will explain it to your closed mind.

[Buster D]

Sorry, you're the one who is mistaken.  60 frames of 240p converted to 60 fields of 480i is the exact same video lines. When this 480i is converted back to 240p, all a computer monitor has to do is show each interlaced field of 240 lines in sequence instead of alternating them.  Nothing retarded about it.

If you're lucky enough to have RGB output on all your systems and have a display or converters than can accept the signal, then great.  But not everyone has this option or chooses to go to the trouble of setting it up.

If you have a technical explanation for why using DScaler would be a bad idea, I'd be perfectly willing to hear it.  But paint metaphors don't accurately explain the situation.

[TurboXray]

I could understand converting it to a 480p signal with fake scanlines so it looks like 240p on an HDTV, but the 240p-to-480i-to-240p is about as retarded as painting my black car white just so I can paint it black again right away.

Yeah, the 240p signal on my HDTV looks like ass since it doesn't vertically interpolate or add simulated scanlines. The capture card I have (like most) interperts all signals at 480i regardless if they're 240p or not. But I just fix the problem in post.

 From the sound of it, it appears that the app Buster D is talking about just reorders the fields as frames in real time (with his computer outputting to the HDTV). Unless his capture card is one of those crappy MPEG(2) only versions (those suck such ass), there shouldn't be much generation loss (there is though - slight or otherwise from the capture card YUV to RGB conversion and what not).

 Too much trouble for me. I'd perfer a 240p to 480p signal converter (with filter options and simulation scanline gap). If I really want component PCE to my HDTV, then I'll just run mednafen through the component output (I have an 4:3 HDTV CRT 53" - so not black bars for me).

 Btw, the snes and genesis both have an interlaced mode. The snes mode is the half ass 263/262line switch ever other frame while the genesis has true 262.5line mode. The 263/262line mode doesn't work on my HD set, but I'm not supprised.

 I just run my classic systems on an SDTV for the most part.


-Rich

[Joe Redifer]

60 frames of 240p converted to 60 fields of 480i is the exact same video lines.

Never said it wasn't.

Bonknuts, what SNES games have screens that are in interlace mode?  I've always wondered this but couldn't get an answer.  Obviously I want to try it for myself.

[Buster D]

60 frames of 240p converted to 60 fields of 480i is the exact same video lines.

Never said it wasn't.

You said "240p sent as 480i looks like ass compared to 240p as 240p".  This is not true on a setup such as mine, as the video lines are exactly the same.  The only difference is in the color quality when comparing S-Video to RGB, which is negligible with a properly calibrated display.

[TurboXray]

 Joe,

 I'd have to look at the list (around here somewhere). I remember Chrono Trigger supposedly had one scene with mode 7 in interlaced mode (asteroid part I think). I did a test PC Engine demo that did the 263/262line interlaced mode and is didn't work on my HD set either (fine on SDTV set ofcourse).

[Joe Redifer]

You said "240p sent as 480i looks like ass compared to 240p as 240p".  This is not true on a setup such as mine, as the video lines are exactly the same.  The only difference is in the color quality when comparing S-Video to RGB, which is negligible with a properly calibrated display.

You make my head hurt daily.

Bonknuts, try to find a game I can access without playing for hours like Chrono Trigger.  Also, send me an ISO of that PCE test if you have a CD version.  I'd love to see it. 

[Joe Redifer]

I hate replying to myself, but I want to post these anyway.  It's from Midnight Resistance on the Genesis and the red text is an excellent example of different video signals.  I made sure that these images never went through any sort of compression from the lens to your eyeballs... though I hear Internet Explorer hates PNG files and treats them wrong.  But who uses IE anymore ?

COMPOSITE:


S-VIDEO:


COMPONENT:


Sorry Keranu, no RF picture.