What's the deal with the Turbo/PCE video signal?

[CrackTiger]

Before I bought my LCD TV, I asked the experts over on the HDTV Arcade forums a few questions as I was researching HDTVs.

Several people told me that HDTVs were no good for playing classic consoles on, because (among other things)most can't upscale the 240p signal fast enough and the framerate chugs.

So when I tried my Duo on my new LCD and it was all choppy, I thought "oh well, no big deal", since it was primarily for my Xbox 360.

But tonight I hooked up my NEX to test out an NES cart I picked up and it worked fine. So I tested my Duo again with the modded composite out and the regular Duo A/V cable. But it's the same as with the S-Video, the game runs at like 15 fps.

I just tried my Multi Mega and it also works fine. The signal from all three console's signals is just called "NTSC" by my TV, where 720 x ' signals have a more detailed description(R-Type 1 on R-Types PSX runs in 720 x 240 for example).

Anyone have any idea why only the PC Engine doesn't work on my TV?

[Tatsujin]

Anyone have any idea why only the PC Engine doesn't work on my TV?

very strange phenomenon indeed!
may be, because the resolution of the PCE is slightly different to the NES or MD, the HDTV can't handle well just this specific kind of resolution?!

[Joe Redifer]

Try hooking up a Genesis and running Sonic 2's 2-player mode and see what happens.  Then run a low resolution Genesis game like Air Buster or Arrow Flash or Lords of Thunder (which run in the same 256x224 resolution that Turbo games do).  Anything peculiar?

[CrackTiger]

Try hooking up a Genesis and running Sonic 2's 2-player mode and see what happens.  Then run a low resolution Genesis game like Air Buster or Arrow Flash or Lords of Thunder (which run in the same 256x224 resolution that Turbo games do).  Anything peculiar?

Sonic 2's regular and splitscreen modes both work fine and so did Mega Bomberman.

But Forgotten Worlds and all the 'low' res Turbo games I tried are all choppy. 

EDIT: I just tried a SNES2 and it ran Ys III fine, but there were some rainbow effects on a couple dithered spots.

So I guess I just happened to pick out a TV that specifically hates the PC Engine. 

Is there anything special about the PCE's signal that could cause something like this? Even the S-Video mod off of the RGB mod produces the same results.

Anyone else have a 720+p digital TV you can test a Turbo/PCE on?

[Digi.k]

I'm actually waiting on a new lcd tv to arrive mid week so I get back to you on this..

Your problem isn't new a lot of people have experience with this..some hdtv's should have a game mode.

I got this article from another forum:

Why do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.

On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.

However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set.

You can read more of that here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?t=558125&pp=60



I think for getting decent images of retro machines on lcd hdtv's you need to get some sort of converter that upscans the image from old retro machines so they look nice on hdtv's.  Some sort of external device that does XRGB

You might need to investigate into this as I won't know for sure what is needed till my hdtv arrives and I can see if there's any damage myself.

[CrackTiger]

I'm actually waiting on a new lcd tv to arrive mid week so I get back to you on this..

Your problem isn't new a lot of people have experience with this..some hdtv's should have a game mode.

I got this article from another forum:

Why do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.

On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.

However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set.

I think for getting decent images of retro machines on lcd hdtv's you need to get some sort of converter that upscans the image from old retro machines so they look nice on hdtv's.  Some sort of external device that does XRGB

You might need to investigate into this as I won't know for sure what is needed till my hdtv arrives and I can see if there's any damage myself.

Thats what I figured at first, when all I had tested was my Duo. But so far all old 240p consoles display fine except for my PC Engines.

I just tried my Shuttle on it, in case my Duo was somehow changed by the video mods, but it's the exact same. 

[Joe Redifer]

And the NES works fine, right?  To my eye the NES and the Turbo/PCE have similar composite.  Maybe there is something about the Turbo signal that is ever-so-slightly out of sync with what it should be and that messes up HDTVs, but not SDTVs.  If I am not too lazy later I will try my Turbo on my CRT HDTV... though I think I *may* have done so a long time ago.

[Keranu]

I can't really tell a difference between NES and TG16 composite either.

[nat]

Not sure if this is related, but recently I hooked up a spare Turbo to an old PowerMac 6300 I have with a video-in & capture card. It will take RF, composite, and S-Video video input. My idea was to have an extra console hooked up in another room seperate from the flatscreen so I would have a place to go hideout if the woman had company over and I felt like being anti-social. Hey the computer has a fairly large monitor and is right in front of a lazyboy, so why not, right?

I made my own adapter to pull a composite signal directly off the expansion bus on the back of the TG-16 since I refuse to go RF. I've done this many times over the years, so I know what I'm doing here.

However, I have the EXACT SAME problem. The video shows up on-screen at around 15 FPS. The video is not decoded or otherwise handled by any kind of software, it's a strictly hardware setup so I am at a loss as to why this is happening. The RF signal coming in from my cable TV coax runs perfectly smootly as do any other video devices I attach to both the composite or RF (video camera, VCR, DVD, etc). I haven't tried another console yet, though.

But I wonder if there isn't something funky about the Turbo's video output after hearing  this experience...

[ccovell]

This is a new one.

Try Space Harrier, Bonk's Adventure, OutRun, Volfied, or Rastan Saga II with your LCD TV.  Do those run at full framerate?  I have a theory...

[Joe Redifer]

I hooked up my Turbo to my HDTV (Sony 34XBR960) and it did not stutter.  Smooth as silk.  Unfortunately it looked like ass:



Ew.

[CrackTiger]

This is a new one.

Try Space Harrier, Bonk's Adventure, OutRun, Volfied, or Rastan Saga II with your LCD TV.  Do those run at full framerate?  I have a theory...

I've already tried Bonk's Adventure and it was also choppy. Should I still try OutRun or Rastan Saga II?

My Duo works fine on my 480p digital projector(which runs up to 1080i).

And the NES works fine, right?  To my eye the NES and the Turbo/PCE have similar composite.  Maybe there is something about the Turbo signal that is ever-so-slightly out of sync with what it should be and that messes up HDTVs, but not SDTVs.  If I am not too lazy later I will try my Turbo on my CRT HDTV... though I think I *may* have done so a long time ago.

I hadn't tried a real actual NES yet, just the Generation NEX. But I just hooked one up a few minutes ago and after a lot of work managed to get it to boot up a cart which played fine.

Incidentally, on my LCD it looked like the real NES had a slightly better overall picture by my unique tastes. I think I'll try to compare them on a regular TV later and if the difference is noticible, I might get the pins replaced on one of my NESes.


So far, it sounds like we have two confirmed HDTV's spitting out the PCE video. I'd pack a Duo over to friends houses if I knew anyone else with an HDTV.

[NecroPhile]

Let me preface this post with the fact that I am by no means a genius concerning Turbo hardware, or anything else for that matter.

If I remember correctly, the Turbo doesn't output video at 60hz, but something close to it (59.?hz).  Most LCDs refresh at 60hz (some new models refresh at 120hz), so maybe some sets really don't like this little difference.  I have no idea what the NES, Genesis, etc. cycle video at.  Maybe they all output video at some weird rate too, which would blow my theory clean out of the water.

[Joe Redifer]

It's 59.94 Hz.  Why not 60hz?  Well it used to be 60Hz... until they added color.  So all proper NTSC video runs at 59.94 Hz.

[nat]

This is a new one.

Try Space Harrier, Bonk's Adventure, OutRun, Volfied, or Rastan Saga II with your LCD TV.  Do those run at full framerate?  I have a theory...

Hey!!!

This may not have worked for CrackTiger, but on the system I have problems with (computer -> video-in) the above games DO work in full frame rate! The other game I tested, Air Zonk, chugs at like 15 FPS.

What's your theory?

[ccovell]

My [naive] theory was that perhaps the PCE/Turbo, with its adjustable NTSC artifact reduction, confuses the video decoder in LCD TVs, or PC video inputs in your case.

The games I listed above turn off artifact reduction (VCE reg. $0400), making the image look all gross and dithered on normal TVs.  A lot of other PCE games have this artifact reduction turned on, thus beautifying the image.  It does, however mean the image shimmers a little bit... I thought that this shimmering perhaps confused the LCD TV into thinking it was interlaced, or some other screwy thing.

[nat]

Do think this might be the case in my instance?

I mean, what else would explain Air Zonk chugging at 15 FPS while Space Harrier flows smoothly? Maybe I should try some other titles aside from Air Zonk and the ones you listed.

[CrackTiger]

I could only find Out Run from that list of games and it looks like it's also choppy, but maybe not as bad as other games. Its hard to tell because there's next to no smooth scrolling like a platformer.

Chris, do you know of any other HuCard or CD games that turn off artifact reduction? Do you know for sure if the North American Bonk's Adventure has it turned off(and not just PC Genjin)?

[esteban]

My [naive] theory was that perhaps the PCE/Turbo, with its adjustable NTSC artifact reduction, confuses the video decoder in LCD TVs, or PC video inputs in your case.

The games I listed above turn off artifact reduction (VCE reg. $0400), making the image look all gross and dithered on normal TVs.  A lot of other PCE games have this artifact reduction turned on, thus beautifying the image.  It does, however mean the image shimmers a little bit... I thought that this shimmering perhaps confused the LCD TV into thinking it was interlaced, or some other screwy thing.

Intriguing! Is there a reason why some particular games turn NTSC artifact reduction off, whilst other games leave it on? This is an entirely new area to me... so I won't even try speculating

[NecroPhile]

Methinks that Mr. Covell is onto something here.  Does your HDTV have 'image enhancement' for standard def content (i.e. Samsung's DNie), and is it possible to turn it off?  Maybe it's choking on scaling the image while trying to improve it.

[OldRover]

I got it figured out!

The reason the PCE looks weird on those newfangled tellies and other consoles look fine is because all those other consoles can barely maintain 15fps to begin with! The PCE just chugs along at 600fps! Them dang newfangled thingies can't even begin to cope with the awesome powa of da Turbo! It wasn't called TurboGrafx for nuthin ya know!!!

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Okay...I'm done now.

[PCEngineHell]

I hooked up my Turbo to my HDTV (Sony 34XBR960) and it did not stutter.  Smooth as silk.  Unfortunately it looked like ass:



Ew.

Seen worse Joe, on the Genesis. BTW did you use Component or Composite when you took your pic, tried your system out ?

[CrackTiger]

Methinks that Mr. Covell is onto something here.  Does your HDTV have 'image enhancement' for standard def content (i.e. Samsung's DNie), and is it possible to turn it off?  Maybe it's choking on scaling the image while trying to improve it.

You know what, my TV does have Faroudja DCDi™ de-interlace technology.

I can't see any way to turn it off in the menus and can't find the manual.

The closest thing I could find was an "Over Scan" option, which I can switch from Normal to Full.

This is the TV-

http://www.primaamerica.com/CaLC32R25C.ASP

But aren't the NES & SNES supposed to be doing similar video tricks as the PC Engine, or is each console's a little different or something?

[NecroPhile]

Make sure that there isn't anything like a 'game mode' in the menus (this should disable any image enhancement).  Usually the VGA port doesn't get the image enhancement treatment, but I can't tell you how to connect your TG16 to a VGA port. 

But aren't the NES & SNES supposed to be doing similar video tricks as the PC Engine, or is each console's a little different or something?

The NES and SNES likely have similar tricks, but I'd guess that the slight differences in resolution and video processing save them from having problems on your set.  You just found the right (wrong) combination to make the TV choke.  Any chance that you could exchange the set for a different make and model?

[CrackTiger]

Make sure that there isn't anything like a 'game mode' in the menus (this should disable any image enhancement).  Usually the VGA port doesn't get the image enhancement treatment, but I can't tell you how to connect your TG16 to a VGA port. 

But aren't the NES & SNES supposed to be doing similar video tricks as the PC Engine, or is each console's a little different or something?

The NES and SNES likely have similar tricks, but I'd guess that the slight differences in resolution and video processing save them from having problems on your set.  You just found the right (wrong) combination to make the TV choke.  Any chance that you could exchange the set for a different make and model?

Even if I can get it to work, I don't plan on playing my Duo the LCD very often. I bought it for my Xbox 360, not my Duo.  My projector's good enough for big screen Duo sessions and it doesn't have any nasty effects.

I'm mainly just curious as to what's going on. There's no game mode or anything. Its still weird that it would chug with Bonk's Adventure since it has that artifact reducing deal turned off.

[Joe Redifer]

Seen worse Joe,on the Genesis. BTW did you use Component or composite when you took your pic,tried your system out?

Well Forgotten Worlds is on o' them "higher resolution" Turbo games.  Now if I plugged in a 256-pixel wide game like maybe Bonk it would probably look a tad worse even.  I hooked it up with composite cables because I didn't feel like dragging the transcoder and other cables up to the HDTV just to check if it ran at full frame rate.  I have hooked the Genesis up in component to that TV and it looked similar (blockiness wise).

[PCEngineHell]

As bad as the above pic looks, it still looks better then the Genesis Forgotten Worlds run on any display at any video output.

[Joe Redifer]

LOL.  But the Genesis version can scroll more than one screen at a time, so it DESTROYS the Turbo version, eh?  Also I can play with a friend.  He may turn into my enemy after I make him play that game, but yeah.

[ccovell]

Intriguing! Is there a reason why some particular games turn NTSC artifact reduction off, whilst other games leave it on? This is an entirely new area to me... so I won't even try speculating

I have no real idea why, I can only guess...  Perhaps it comes down to choice or ignorance.  Many games by Taito and NEC Avenue have this reduction turned off.  It makes a lot of those games look awful when they're standing still.  I do know that if a game scrolls constantly by 1 pixel each frame in any direction (like a slow shooter), or has lots of ordered dithering patterns (like Jim Power), it's a better idea to keep artifact reduction off.  In most other cases, artifact reduction makes the game look much better overall.

[CrackTiger]

Alright, one mystery is now solved while bringing up a new one.

I tried Rastan Saga II, Volfied and Space Harrier with my flash card and they all run smooth. I tried another game on the card and it was still choppy. So Chris's artifact reduction theory was correct.

However, as I said earlier, Bonk's Adventure was all choppy. So I loaded a Bonk's Adventure rom and a PC Genjin rom onto the card and tried them out. They both worked fine.

So finally, I tried my real actual official Bonk's Adventure HuCard again.... and it's still choppy. Plus, when I tried my real actual Out Run HuCard, it also looked choppy(but I couldn't be completely sure).

So either the flash card combined with artifact reduction turned off somehow lets my TV run the games fine, or there are multiple versions of Bonk's Adventure out there, some of which got the artifact reduction turned back on. 

[Tatsujin]

you just face with the unaccountable world of electronic law

[Joe Redifer]

What exactly does artifact reduction do?  Is it the shimmering I see when it is standing still?

[2X4]

I don't know as much as some of the people here, but if your system is modded and you don't have an rgb amp installed, your tv may not be able to sync.  Supposedly most tvs can, but, who knows.  And my money says that Chris is probably more on target since he seems to know a lot about this stuff (and other stuff).  I just hooked up my TG-16 to my new plasma and it looks fantastic just through the composite from my TG-CD.  I played Bonk's revenge and didn't notice any framerate problems.

I do wonder though, would it be possible to take the rgb mod and hack one of those DVI to HDMI converters and run your rgb wires to the DVI end of the converter and hook up your turbo via HDMI?  Like I said I ain't no wiz, but if someone knows if this is possible, it would be a real bonus for the apparently growing number of us with HDTVs.

[ccovell]

What exactly does artifact reduction do?  Is it the shimmering I see when it is standing still?

Yes.  Most modern systems have artifact reduction.  The NES, SNES, and Turbo do as well.  Systems like the SMS, Genesis, and Neo-Geo do not.

Look at the top of this page for a short description of NTSC artifacts and what systems do to reduce it: https://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/screenshots.html

[Digi.k]

Well i got my new TV yesterday its Toshiba 32" WLT66 for my bedroom.. I guess the image quality isnt too hot for pc engine but you definitely need to reduce the factory settings for contrast and the sharpness!!





I have a problem too although its different from CrackTiger's.. you can see it from the video clip i took.

http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m113/secretsociety1/?action=view¤t=tempparo.flv

As you can see the screen flashes randomly every few seconds which bugs me somewhat.  Although I don't know if its to do with the fact that I live in the UK and most tv's here are natively 50hz, but the pc engine is hooked up via composite and is 60hz.

[CrackTiger]

Thats messed up. Not being a super tech, I could only guess that it has something to do with it being a PAL TV as you mentioned... but isn't it a digital TV? If so, doesn't it support all kinds of different PAL & NTSC signals?.

[Joe Redifer]

Aw man, don't stretch your image horizontally.  That looks soooooooooooo bad!

[GUTS]

Thats how my roommate watches TV on my wide screen, it bugs the shit out of me.  I'm like "doesn't it bother you that people all look fat and everything looks stupid?", and he just says he can't stand the black bars on the side.  Of course he can also watch full-screen movies so I guess some people are just hopeless.

[CrackTiger]

Thats how my roommate watches TV on my wide screen, it bugs the shit out of me.  I'm like "doesn't it bother you that people all look fat and everything looks stupid?", and he just says he can't stand the black bars on the side.  Of course he can also watch full-screen movies so I guess some people are just hopeless.

I love it when people talk about "black bars", its never "the picture's too" small or anything, its always just those stupid black bars.

Years ago when I worked at a store that sold videos, it came up all the time. I explained to people how its actually full screen that has vertical "black bars", -the sides of the TV screen cutting off half the picture. And in most cases, you still got warped images and hokey smooth camera pans.

Then when widescreen TVs started to come out and were ridiculously overpriced, I'd warn those I could. But one day a lady came in bragging how a salesman at a local electroniccs chain just sold her a $3000 - $4000 widescreen TV. And how he told her that its the only way to get rid of the black bars.

I didn't have the heart to tell her than she could've bought a larger 4:3 TV that would've had at least the same size letterboxed viewing area as the widescreen's screen, but for a good $1000 less and wouldn't warp TV shows, -what most people watched on TVs at the time.

[Joe Redifer]

Of course he can also watch full-screen movies so I guess some people are just hopeless.

You mean "fool screen" (heh)?  Yeah, I simply can't stand unnaturally distorted images.  I'd rather have the bars on the side any day.  I think a large portion of society is hopeless.

[esteban]

OK, I have a few questions for you folks (concerning Panasonic TH-42PX60U 42" Plasma):

1. The manual to my TV warns that screen burn-in can occur if you watch 4:3 aspect mode (gray side bars introduced by tv). What's the deal with this? Do the manufacturer's simply assume folks will use "Justified" mode for standard tv? (On my tv, justified doesn't stretch out the middle of the screen too much, opting to stretch out the far -left and -right portions of the screen.)

2. I'm also worried about screen burn-in from playing video games that have static text / images displayed all the time (i.e. score). Now, I know that this sort of disclaimer was made even with standard CRT tv's, but I'm wondering if HDTV's are more susceptible. I really won't play games on the HDTV, but it would be fun to do it every once in a while (with PS2 and Xbox 360... though I have yet to try older consoles on it).

Here's an old thread. I learned a lot since then, but I'm still overly cautious!

Thanks in advance.

[NecroPhile]

Yep, plasma's biggest drawback is burn in.  Manufacturers expect people to watch mostly widescreen content and only limited 4:3 content.  Minimize the chance of burn in by lowering the brightness and switching to full screen content periodically.  Many people think that LCDs are exempt from this type of problem, but they are dead wrong.  While it takes longer, LCDs suffer from similar image permanence problems.  Fortunately, they are usually not permenant and can be 'fixed'.

[esteban]

Yep, plasma's biggest drawback is burn in.  Manufacturers expect people to watch mostly widescreen content and only limited 4:3 content.  Minimize the chance of burn in by lowering the brightness and switching to full screen content periodically.  Many people think that LCDs are exempt from this type of problem, but they are dead wrong.  While it takes longer, LCDs suffer from similar image permanence problems.  Fortunately, they are usually not permenant and can be 'fixed'.

Thanks for the scoop .

[CrackTiger]

The way I understood it when I bought my TV, was that Plasmas were strickly for watching movies and that LCDs, while not totally immune, were the only HDTV to consider for gaming. Otherwise I would've bought one of these giant Plasmas that keep plummeting in price.

[NecroPhile]

Same here Black_Tiger; those plasmas have a damn fine picture for the price and are very tempting.  Does anybody 'round here run their Duo on a DLP set?  I'm curious to know if they can handle the awesome 16 bit power, er 8 bit, er whatever. 

[CrackTiger]

Same here Black_Tiger; those plasmas have a damn fine picture for the price and are very tempting.  Does anybody 'round here run their Duo on a DLP set?  I'm curious to know if they can handle the awesome 16 bit power, er 8 bit, er whatever. 

I have a DLP projector and Duo games look great(even at 90"), just like everything else. The picture doesn't look like its running through one of those ugly filters some emulators have.

[2X4]

DLPs look great, especially for old school games because they are essentially a high(er) tech CRT.  I will tell you what I learned during the research that led me to purchase my plasma. 

1)  burn-in, as has already been mentioned, can occur on any current type of tv.  newer tvs have built in counter-measures for this, and it isn't the inevitable pitfall that you hear about.

2) brightness loss (another alleged symptom of plasma tvs) over time also occurs with all current types of tvs.  At 6 hours of viewing a day, it will take at least 10 years to have a noticable loss of picture quality (and by then you'll probably want and be able to afford the next wave of display technology)

3)  When it comes to contrast, nothing can touch plasma.  black levels are better also, though lcd and dlp are closing the gap.

Necro, my best advice is to always look at the native resolution of the TV.  if you go with the highest progressive scan possible, (ideally 1080p, which isn't found on any42 inch or smaller tvs i have seen), and look at the aspect ratios available (most are 16:9 natively but can stretch to full screen, which looks terrible as others have said, but some tvs offer still other options for different input signals) look for an optional aspect ratio that is somewhere near 3:2 I believe that is what the turbo cranks out(?)  I hope that helps.

[Jinzouki]

I had alot of the problems listed here some time ago (I made a thread about it in December or early January) I think I read S-Video modification wouldn't help much with playing a Duo on a HD LCD TV? I also did have a problem with random flashes in gameplay, my Sega CDX (aka Multi Mega) and it has the same problem and my TV is a Samsung (with "game" mode). Overall, what brand of lcd tvs would you guys say messes up classic games "least"? Widescreen Bonk looks wierd though Widescreen Space Harrier doesn't look that bad XD

[Digi.k]

hmm I think the problem lies with the pc engine cause I tried the Sega Saturn and japanese games run fine and 60 frames smooth too.