VC: Why TG-16 and not PCE in Europe?

[Monster Bonce]

Does anyone else think it's odd that Nintendo are calling it the TurobGrafx-16 and not PC Engine in the European Virtual Console? The PCE was a lot better known in Europe (and more highly regarded, though that's no slight on the TG, just a comment on NEC/TTI's US release policy) than its American cousin.

I know there was an "official" (not really) TG in France or Spain but, on the whole, the PCE was much, much more common.

[Turbo D]

I thought that the Turbografx-16 was the official europe release and not the pcengine. I always see them on ebay, with their funky color scheme, haha. I do know what you mean about pcengine being more common there. I think that I read that there were only a few releases on the funky euro tg-16.

[Monster Bonce]

I've never thought that the European TG was 100% legit. If it was the genuine article, no-one bought it. In Ireland, France and the UK at least the PC Engine (especially the CoreGrafx) was the most common NEC machine.

[nat]

I thought that the Turbografx-16 was the official europe release and not the pcengine. 

The PC-Engine wasn't released in Europe at all. Anyone who owns one there got it as an import.

The TurboGrafx was, in fact, the "official" release in Europe. I think they dropped the "-16" part of the name for that market. There is some debate as to how official it's release was, but considering the release was at least in some way backed by NEC, I consider it just as official as any other release of the console.

[Keranu]

They probably used Turbo Grafx 16 because the games you get are in English.

[Seldane]

It's pretty weird that they even have it here, as nobody knows what Turbo Grafx is, and that none of the games released for it were released here (all the other VC game releases were originally released in Europe, I think).

Maybe that's why it's there... so that curious people can try out something new. I haven't heard many good things about it though.

[guyjin]

Would you call buying a PCE from groups like Sodipeng 'importing'?

[nat]

OK, well, the Sodipeng situation is an interseting one. I wouldn't necessarily call that importing, but at the risk of starting a debate, I'd hardly call it any kind of "official" release. I'd never even heard of Sodipeng until sometime within the last year, however, I remember hearing about the PAL TurboGrafx European release like 15 years ago. For all intents and purposes this was the "official" (backed/funded/licensed/whatever by NEC) release our hardware saw on those shores, regardless of whether or not anybody remembers it. This is the reason I believe Hudson and Nintendo choose to go with the TurboGrafx as the VC for Europe.

[Seldane]

What's Sodipeng.

[Turbo D]

its some french pc engine company that puts its name on turbo pads

[CrackTiger]

The TG-16 was only test marketed in Europe.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

What's Sodipeng.

They were a French company (as turbo D said) and they're name is an abridgment of 'society for the importation of PC Engine' (the French equivalent, anyway).  They imported various PC Engine hardware and sold their own branded controllers.  I'd thought that they were different from the 'official' controllers and not just rebranded, but I could be wrong.  Check out some of their old adds here.

[Golgo13]

PAL sucks.

[nat]

PAL sucks.

I don't really know anything about it, but what I've heard isn't good. In fact, I've never heard anything positive about it at all.

[termis]

For regular TV, I'd think a lot of laymen probably wouldn't notice the difference at first glance.  It looked somewhat cleaner to me than your average NTSC screens (higher res), but you can definitely tell it flickers more than NTSC.  Well, at least I could.  (Some people were amazed that I could immediately tell when older CRT computer monitors were running at lower refresh rates -- it'd bug the shit out of me, but they really couldn't notice the flickering difference unless I showed them big white screens at 60Hz and 100Hz.)

Anyway -- for gaming, PAL really does seem to suck.

[nat]

(Some people were amazed that I could immediately tell when older CRT computer monitors were running at lower refresh rates -- it'd bug the shit out of me, but they really couldn't notice the flickering difference unless I showed them big white screens at 60Hz and 100Hz.)

You're like me, then. I can't see how people can't notice it.

My Apple //GS monitor has a refresh rate of like 50Hz. As much as the Apple //GS kicks ass, there's only so much I can take of that monitor.

[Seldane]

Nothing runs in 50Hz anymore. That's ancient technology. All modern CRT TVs run at 100 Hz and new video games (with a few exceptions) at 60. PAL is evolving, unlike... other formats.

[Monster Bonce]

PAL is superior for television, though only just. American television looks slightly blurry to European eyes when it's mapped to the higher-res PAL screen. Broadcast NTSC suffers from colour inconsistency.

NTSC's advantage is 60 fields per second (30 frames per second with alternating lines) versus PAL's 50 fields (25 fps).

In some regards Secam is better again—625 lines like PAL and 60 fields—but it's a real pain for post-production. None of this really matters anymore, though, as TV has gone digital in Europe and we've used Scart (Syndicat des constructeurs d'appareils radiorécepteurs et téléviseurs, the euroconnector RGB) for videos and DVDs for years.

Lots of gamers complain about the lower refresh rate. I didn't notice back in the day. Whether or not I'd notice now, I couldn't say.

The other complaint was the letterbox format. Obviously video games were designed for a certain screen resolution and people were irritated by the bars. Again, it never bothered me. Still doesn't.

I can't understand the complaints about letterboxing in film, though. I really hated how American film companies forced pan and scan on us with VHS. They did it because of American distaste for letterboxing which was considered more acceptable (and was very common) in Europe. The curse of the English language ensured that we just got PAL versions of American output. Thankfully pan and scan died when DVDs appeared.

What does NTSC stand for? Oh yes, Never The Same Colour.

[Monster Bonce]

The point about monitors is fair enough, but you don't sit so close to the TV when viewing.

WRT computers, having since moved to a laptop I hate using any CRT monitor. Given that I used to be a graphic designer that was a problem—back then no LCD came near a CRT for colour accuracy but they eyeball shaving refresh really had an effect on my eyes.

Anyway, this PAL/NTSC stuff is all history now.

PS IIGS – cool. I wrote a feature on the history of the IIGS for a British magazine a few years back. Interesting machine. Might buy one.

It was the dev machine for the SNES until Nintendo developed in-house SNES emulation for the Mac.

[Monster Bonce]

The PC-Engine wasn't released in Europe at all. Anyone who owns one there got it as an import.

The TurboGrafx was, in fact, the "official" release in Europe. I think they dropped the "-16" part of the name for that market. There is some debate as to how official it's release was, but considering the release was at least in some way backed by NEC, I consider it just as official as any other release of the console.

I don't consider it official and I don't think many do. Perhaps it was just test marketed as Black Tiger suggests. Wasn't it just in Spain, or something?

Yes, PCEs were all imports but there were an awful lot of them. A lot more than TG-16s.

Doubtlessly Keranu is correct when he writes that Nintendo "probably used Turbo Grafx 16 because the games you get are in English." I think this is a mistake, though. The PC Engine was pretty well known among gamers back in the early 1990s and most people thought the TG-16 was an ugly beast. Maybe Nintendo aren't after the nostalgia market? Who knows.

Interestingly, when the SNES was released in the US, European gamers, in a moment of living up to clichés about our fey, feminised nature, balked at its design and complained so much that Nintendo released the European SNES with the Super Famicom's industrial design. I remember the complaints about the US machine very clearly. I also remember thinking it was ugly myself. Since then I've never seen one in real life, but I have to say I now think the ID is pretty good, though I still prefer the SF.

I am very glad to get PCE/TG-16 games on the VC in Europe at all, though. Roll on MSX, preferably Japanese MSX games because so many European ones were piss poor Spectrum conversions. Ugh.

[termis]

Yeah, for broadcast TV, I particularly don't care much whether the format is NTSC or PAL, especially considering all low-res analog stuff has gone/are going to be soon go the way of the dodo.

Just for classic gaming, If I had a PAL setup, I'd pretty much make sure that my TV could take 60Hz input (which I hear most non-ancient sets do anyway), and put a 50/60Hz selector on the systems.  More so than having black bars, I'd just hate to have things looking squashed.  And the slower gameplay would be kinda lame too.  Now, if I grew up with those effects, I may not notice, but knowing what I know, I don't think I'd be able to stand little things like that.

[Monster Bonce]

Sure. As you hint at it's really a non-issue these days. In fact, I think it's overstated a lot, particularly in US-centric games forums.

I don't remember any squashing, though I have read plenty about it. It would be a pretty crappy conversion that resorted to that. I've read that the Master System suffered from this but I can't remember. I do remember the letterboxing on my SNES, very vividly. Was it mostly with imported games? I can't remember. I also remember being able to switch between 50 and 60 on my TV. I might have added something to the console, but I doubt it.

It seems I can't remember much detail!

You'd have to look pretty hard to get a TV couldn't handle 60 Hz today, or any time in the last decade. Back in the early 90s it might have been trickier, but I don't think so.

The slower gameplay I didn't notice because, as you suggest, I'd never experienced anything else.

What a trip down amnesia lane...

[nat]

The other complaint was the letterbox format. Obviously video games were designed for a certain screen resolution and people were irritated by the bars. Again, it never bothered me. Still doesn't.

Letterboxing, squashed picture, and things moving slower than they are meant to in video games is sacrilege. I don't mind letterboxed movies, though, actually prefer getting the wider angle.

The PC-Engine wasn't released in Europe at all. Anyone who owns one there got it as an import.

The TurboGrafx was, in fact, the "official" release in Europe. I think they dropped the "-16" part of the name for that market. There is some debate as to how official it's release was, but considering the release was at least in some way backed by NEC, I consider it just as official as any other release of the console.

I don't consider it official and I don't think many do. Perhaps it was just test marketed as Black Tiger suggests. Wasn't it just in Spain, or something?

Whether or not people consider it official is irrelevant-- because it was official. It doesn't matter if I don't consider my cat a real cat-- she's still a cat. In Hudson's business eyes, I believe this is all that matters, and also why they are using TurboGrafx as the VC for Europe. I'm pretty sure it's actually Hudson calling the shots with the whole VC deal, not Nintendo. Whether or not this is a good move on their part is debatable, however. But as we all know, the NEC/Hudson camp isn't legendary for making great business decisions.

CrackTiger may be correct in that it never passed the test market phase, but that doesn't change anything as far as it being financially backed by NEC.

And yes, I believe Spain was the primary test market though I've heard it was available elsewhere in extremely limited quantities.

PS IIGS – cool. I wrote a feature on the history of the IIGS for a British magazine a few years back. Interesting machine. Might buy one.

It was the dev machine for the SNES until Nintendo developed in-house SNES emulation for the Mac.

The Apple //GS is an incredible computer. Do you know there is a large quantity of third-party development still happening for it? The //GS has a lot of potential that only now, some 20+ years after it's release is being realized.

The //GS and SNES are internally similar, even share the same CPU, so it's no surprise Nintendo used it for development.

In my opinion, the CPU initially shipped was too slow. I put a faster CPU upgrade card in mine like five years ago and it just smokes.

[Monster Bonce]

I'll demure to your knowledge on the Euro TG except to say, thank god it didn't get a wider release, the TG is one but ugly box! Mind you, a Euro PC Engine would of course have suffered from the TG's real flaw: paucity and poverty of game releases. I can't get my head around NEC's business decisions back then. Crazy.

Letterboxing is good with film because you get the whole picture. With a 70mm or 2:35:1/1:85:1 film converted to pan and scan you're getting only a part of the film. Offer to pay 1/3 of the price for the VHS copy and see how far you get.

I don't mind letterboxing in games at all, probably because I'm accustomed to it on TV (Pal Plus was letterboxed and so was D2MAC and HDMAC, our old European digital and HDTV standards) and film. Actually, it's ridiculous that so many broadcasters circumvented the *MAC and HD standards by using (relatively) low powered satellites to transmit their programmes. We should have had HD 15 years ago. Instead, all we got was the Olympic Games and a few operas.

I concede that squashing would annoy me quite a bit.

Anyway, IIGS. I did know there was some development going on but I didn't realise it was on any kind of scale. What kind of SW is being developed?

The IIGS was subject to several ropey decisions. Stereo audio and a good sound chip but only mono output?

You're right about speed. When developing for the SNES games ran very slowly because of the poor CPU frequency—1MHz normally and a blistering 2.8MHz in "fast mode", I think.

I interviewed a IIGS game developer for the feature. He didn't do terribly well on it because of low sales figures and many users sticking to 8-bit Apple II software but was in a great position when the SNES appeared. It was the developer of Nanosaur on the Mac. His name escape me at the moment but I'll dig through my archive and see if I can find the article, or better still, the interview notes.

Have you seen the Mensch Computer?

http://www.65xx.com/wdc/mensch_computer.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensch_Computer

[Keranu]

Doubtlessly Keranu is correct when he writes that Nintendo "probably used Turbo Grafx 16 because the games you get are in English." I think this is a mistake, though. The PC Engine was pretty well known among gamers back in the early 1990s and most people thought the TG-16 was an ugly beast. Maybe Nintendo aren't after the nostalgia market? Who knows.

I doubt Nintendo (or Hudson Entertainment) even knew that Europe had a big PCE import market, so they probably saw no reason at all to use the PC Engine.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Oh, they probably knew about the import scene - they just didn't care.  European importation of the PC Engine was a small percentage of total sales, so they likely figured that having games in English was better than name recognition.

[Monster Bonce]

I wouldn't dispute that for one second. European import sales would have been a fraction of TG sales in the US. Compared to Japanese sales they'd be a rounding error.

All I meant was, why not released the US TG games on the European VC as PC Engine games? That way they get English-language games plus the name recognition.

I suppose it all depends on what the target market is. People in their late 20s and 30s who remember the PCE, either from having one or reading about it in the magazines, or an entirely new market of retro game fans.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

All I meant was, why not released the US TG games on the European VC as PC Engine games? That way they get English-language games plus the name recognition.

'Cause people would bitch to no end that Hudson was 'lying' to them.  As an extension of your idea - they should have just put "PCE / TG-16" on there and had the best of all possible worlds.

[Seldane]

Consider this: The PC Engine was only "popular" (that's a bit of an exaggeration) in UK and France (more or less, AFAIK) . There are more countries in Europe. Many more.

[Monster Bonce]

Consider this: The PC Engine was only "popular" (that's a bit of an exaggeration) in UK and France (more or less, AFAIK) . There are more countries in Europe. Many more.

Yes I know, I live in one of those other countries. Several of the countries, however, didn't exist back then and many of them certainly wouldn't have heard of the TG either, whether in the east or the west.

On the PCE's popularity. I've addressed this above but it certainly did have a high profile among gamers. Not with the general public, obviously. The fact that it wasn't legitimately available gave it a mystique—the games were better, arcade perfect etc. Of course, given that you couldn't buy one on the high street these wildly exaggerated rumours quickly became "fact".

None of this matters, of course, but I think the TG-16/PCE moniker would have been a good compromise.

[Monster Bonce]

And another thing: who is the VC for, exactly?

Nostalgic fools (arguably) like myself or a new audience? I'm not sure. Obviously it's really just a cheap revenue stream and to be a "success" it doesn't have to sell that many games. Still... who is it aimed at, exactly?

[Golgo13]

From living in both America and Europe, Id really have to say that Europe has less when it comes to games, they get most games last and a lot of stuff just does not come out.  The NES fever never reached the same fever pitch as it did back in the states, no matter what some swede or dutchman says about "We had NES too".  It's just behind when it comes to consumer electronics, generally they don't want the latest stuff and every gadget and gizmo that comes along, as is more common in the US and Asian markets.

Certainly it varies alot from country to country, some of these countries didnt exist in the 80's, like the so called "Macedonia" which is really just a bunch of gypsies and bulgarians latching on to a new name to sound cool to the western europeans.  As a general rule, when we were playing NES back in america, the eastern europeans were wiping their ass bare handed.

[Monster Bonce]

Europe does lag behind in games, true, but not in consumer electronics generally. It's way ahead of North American in terms of mobile phones, digital radio and digital TV, for example.

Macedonia was part of Yugoslavia which was a very advanced Eastern Bloc country. But yes, in general the Eastern countries were not playing Nintendo.

Re the NES, remember that the Sega Master System and local European 8-bit computers had a big head start.

[Golgo13]

The only reason europe was ahead with the mobile phones, was because they had a single standard, where in the US they had 3 different standards which really fucked everything up.

[Golgo13]

And whatever popularity the Sega Master System had, it wasnt shit compared to the power nintendo had in the 80's in america, there is no comparison.

[nat]

And whatever popularity the Sega Master System had, it wasnt shit compared to the power nintendo had in the 80's in america, there is no comparison.

This is true. There was a motion in 1989 to replace the current US government with Nintendo of America based out of Redmond, WA, and rename the union "United States of Nintendo".

[Nazi NecroPhile]

And another thing: who is the VC for, exactly?

Nostalgic fools (arguably) like myself or a new audience? I'm not sure. Obviously it's really just a cheap revenue stream and to be a "success" it doesn't have to sell that many games. Still... who is it aimed at, exactly?

I think that it's aimed at the nostalgic fools and the casual gamers looking for something simple and easy to play (much like some of the online content for the 360 and PS3).

[Seldane]

Europe does lag behind in games, true, but not in consumer electronics generally. It's way ahead of North American in terms of mobile phones, digital radio and digital TV, for example.

Has 3G been launched in North America yet? It's been around in Europe since 2003 I think.

[Monster Bonce]

The only reason europe was ahead with the mobile phones, was because they had a single standard, where in the US they had 3 different standards which really fucked everything up.

It's not as simple as that. Ridiculous US pricing schemes were also a hindrance to wider adoption. However, standards were an issue. That's also why the US lags behind in DTT and digital radio—the laissez faire approach makes buying into a new technology going out on a limb.

Also Europe has very advanced manufacturers of mobile phones we didn't have to wait on US or Japanese cast offs like we've had to with some other forms of consumer electronics (viz. video games).

Someone in America can confirm this but I'm sure 3G is available in the US. I've had 3G phones here in Europe for a couple of years—at least since 2004 or 2005—and I still haven't found a use for it. Actually, I can't stand mobile phones.

[Golgo13]

Mobile phones really don't matter in the end, as long as they don't cut you off when your trying to talk to some girl your trying to bang, I don't really care what kinda phone it is.  I heard in Italy, many guys switch out the simcards in their phones, based on different girls or sets of girls, for example, you would have one sim card for your friends and family, then another sim card for your girlfriend, and then another sim card for the girls your banging on the side and don't want your girlfriend to know about.

[Monster Bonce]

I severely doubt that's restricted to Italy. Sounds like common sense to me.

[Golgo13]

HAHAHAHAHAHA, yes well your right, but I live in Holland right now, (only 2 more weeks left) and guys here aren't sharp enough to think of this type of thing, nor do they even have the desire to, they are too busy sitting around drinking beer and wearing shirts that only gay guys in america wear to think about the complications involved with getting more than 1 girlfriend.  Besides most girls have a hard time being impressed by a dutch guy, with them always asking girls to pay half the bill on a date the guy asked her for.  In america we even had a word for it called "Go Dutch"

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Is this the shirt you're talking about? 

[Golgo13]

Heheheheh, not exactly, its just more like a tight fitting pink shirt, jeans and some expensive leather shoes with a paper thin sole on them and a stripe.  Its very important what brand it is, even though its all made in the same chinese sweatshop anyway.  The thing here is its not gay guys who dress like that, its just he "Normal" Dutch guys, but if they came to my neighborhood in Staten Island, they would be subjected to alot of shit talking and maybe even a possible beating.  Actually they would be shocked to find out how politically incorrect most parts of NY outside manhattan are. 

They want to think its some kind of tolerant sunshine and gumdrop land like they see on TV.

[Monster Bonce]

Accusing Nederlanders of being misers is not a US-only phenomenon. Everyone thinks the Dutch are tight.

Actually it has a historical reason. Holland, as it then was, was an early pioneer of trade. More aristocratic countries like France and Britain looked down upon trade as beneath them. Such a view was particularly prominent in Catholic countries where the crown tended to have a grater grip on power. The Huguenots were France's best craftspeople and, as a result, traders. Until they were all kicked out.

Even in Protestant England the conflict existed, though. The aristocratic Tories (conservatives) relied upon land as both capital and surplus value whereas the Whigs (liberals) tended toward trade. "Trade" was an insult flung as people like Captain Vancouver, for example, because of his familial background. Traders were considered to be money grubbing, petit bourgeois bastards—and not without reason.

I never thought any of this would come up in a discussion about the PC Engine. See—the moral panickers in the 80s were wrong: games don't make you stupid.

A friend of mine is married to a Dutch person. I think she might be a bit of a miser. Mind you, he's a lazy, waste monkey.

There could be a correlation between the clothing and the monogamy. Who knows...

They're also famous for tiny beers with huge heads and bland food. Still, I like the Netherlands. Are you working there or just loafing around?

[Golgo13]

I was studying at business school here.  International Business and Management

[Monster Bonce]

I was studying at business school here.  International Business and Management

I see. Trade!

Arf, arf. Seventeenth century insults—whatever next? "A pox on you, Sir!"

[Golgo13]

Oh yeah, don't even get me started about the food here.

[Monster Bonce]

You mean you don't like tasteless, rubbery cheese?

[Golgo13]

From living here, I can tel you this is the worst country in Europe I have ever been to. Except for maybe bulgaria.