NEC: Beautiful, unreliable hardware?

[BEERS AND VIDEOS]

Why is the Turbo and/or PC Engine so notorious for having hardware problems? From leaking caps to CD ROM gears, it seems like you hear more about problems with hardware on this group of systems more than any other. I've had so much bad luck lately with caps (thank you to BlueBMW for fixing!) and two CD ROM drives, it's really been discouraging. 

Is there a reason why we don't hear about many of these problems on the Sega and Nintendo systems as much?

[PunkCryborg]

I have 3 sega cd model 1 systems that all don't work. My friend has 2 model 1 front loaders that don't work. His X'eye has the door problem. My nomad has no sound and blurry pic. My first 2 Playstations broke years ago. My original SNES started getting a black and white pic. Let's not even get started on NES "toasters".
My Duo-R works great!
All electronics from this era are starting to have problems, I think the difference is there are far less available to pick from while the other companies hardware isn't as big of a deal cause you can just go get another one for cheap. Broken Genesis? no problem I can just pick one up at a thrift store for $10.
Shoot, most people I know in the 360 crowd are on their 2nd or 3rd system by now.

The most reliable system I know though is the Saturn, I've never seen a broken Saturn. I've found some pretty grimey ones I've picked up for friends and they always work and clean up nicely.

[BlueBMW]

Like elabit said... when your snes or genny breaks you just replace it.  No big loss.  Our systems are much less common and we care about them a lot more so that's why there is so much talk of repairing them.  I think arcade guys are the same way.

Beers and videos I've got a black cdrom I can send you if you need it.

[NecroPhile]

Is there a reason why we don't hear about many of these problems on the Sega and Nintendo systems as much?

Apples and oranges.  If you compare only the cartridge systems, the PCE/TG-16 is no less reliable than a Genny/SNES; if you're looking at CD systems, the Sega-CD systems are hardly bulletproof and no less trouble prone.

[BEERS AND VIDEOS]

Is there a reason why we don't hear about many of these problems on the Sega and Nintendo systems as much?

Apples and oranges.  If you compare only the cartridge systems, the PCE/TG-16 is no less reliable than a Genny/SNES; if you're looking at CD systems, the Sega-CD systems are hardly bulletproof and no less trouble prone.

I'll agree, the optical media is a problem with any system. But the caps - man, the caps... I hear of capacitor problems occasionally in Game Gears, but maybe that's just because people throw them away. Our stuff is definitely rarer.

Thanks Blue, but you've done WAY too much for me already. The GT is running so awesomely - thank you again, you are seriously the bomb....KABOOM! I'll be patient and I'm sure I'll resolve my bad CD ROM karma. After years of drooling, I finally had a Super CD ROM, and it looked so sweet, and even that crapped on me (not literally) the day I got it.

[DragonmasterDan]

Just a quick exposition. Comparing it to other 16-bit consoles the stock TG16 is pretty reliable. Now the controllers both the cords and connectors have problems. But the system itself rarely ever fails in my experience.
With that said, I don't see a large number of failed SNES, Neo-Geo or Genesis systems either.

This changes when we go to the other NEC hardware variations. First off the Turbo express. Obviously these have bad caps, and it's an epidemic. During their lifespan they worked. But obviously these haven't lasted that long. And yes, Game Gears do have capacitor problems. But generally it can be narrowed down to the sound board. The TE seems generally to be the least reliable of the handhelds on the market in its era (GameBoy, Lynx, Game Gear).

Next off is the CD add on. Since Nintendo didn't release such a product to the public, we can only compare it to the Sega CD. The two models of Sega CDs have various problems, but it seems like both the model 1 (occasional motor problems) and the model 2 (games lock up periodically) are both more reliable than the Turbo CD.

The final comparison is the Duo. Compared to the CDX (combination Sega CD and Genny), the Duo really isn't very reliable. Compared to the JVC X'eye (Sega CD, Genny and karaoke device) we find a fairly similar system as far as reliability. The X'eye has a bad door sensor button and also has problems with caps and even laser issues.

Overall considering their age we find this. The stock TG16 stacks up well. The express, add-on CD and Duo are below the curve on reliability.

[DragonmasterDan]

The most reliable system I know though is the Saturn, I've never seen a broken Saturn. I've found some pretty grimey ones I've picked up for friends and they always work and clean up nicely.

I've seen a few broken Saturns, also a great many whose disc drives work but cart slots are shot.

[BlueBMW]

We just need to find you a Duo-r or rx and you'll be set!

[SignOfZeta]

I've been gaming TG-16/PCE non-stop since 1992 and I've never had a system fail me.

[VestCunt]

My TE's are all dying, but my other NEC consoles have been solid.  I think the key is just keeping them at room temperature and playing them once in a while.  Stuff in this world likes to be used.  When ignored, bodies get fat, bones become weak, rubber tires crack, metal rusts, gears lock, and Turbo Duo's stop working.
The only problem I had was when Meteor Blaster jammed my Duo lens on the outside track - I didn't know that the Duo had to be powered on while pushing the lens back and after forcing it into position I needed a lens replacement.

[BEERS AND VIDEOS]

We just need to find you a Duo-r or rx and you'll be set!

I know... I'm tempted, but I've always been smitten by the look of the Core II and Super CD ROM together - ever since seeing it in the import ads in the back of EGM in 1991-1992.

[Bernie]

Aww man...  get a Duo r.. 

[CrackTiger]

I don't know where all this notoriety is coming from. Maybe all the hard work so many people have done preparing guides on repairing Turbo/PCE hardware gives some the perception the there's a problem. But Turbo/PCE stuff seems to hold up better than pretty much everything else out there. I've come across dozens of broken Genesis and SNES systems and pretty much every disc based console has issues. I find more dead Sega-CD hardware than working. I've also only encountered a single glitchy HuCard, while I've found many dead carts for various consoles. Everything I've bought new has never given me any problems other than a couple of things that were related to physical abuse.

Every piece of hardware I've bought used that gave me problems seemed to be the result of prior owners. Try to avoid buying games and hardware from smokers for one thing.

[nat]

I think everyone pretty much answered this already, but to address the capacitor issue:

A certain mass manufacturer of surface-mount capacitors produced caps with a flaw in the general timeframe of 1991-1993. Any device, ANY device these capacitors are found in have the same issues. If any other console is less prone to the "leaky cap" issue, it's because they don't use capacitors that were produced by this manufacturer.

I used to repair Macintosh-line Apple computers from the 1986-1992 era, and there were two models (Classic II and SE/30) that utilized the exact same capacitors from the exact same manufacturer as the first generation Duos. These computers all had the same issues, the only recourse was complete capacitor replacement.

The earlier models (original Mac, Mac Plus, SE, etc) used a different brand of capacitor and to date, have had ZERO capacitor-related logic board issues.

It's possible (and somewhat likely) the SNES and Genesis used a different brand of capacitor than the first-generation Duos which could be why you don't hear more about cap replacements in those systems.

Long story short, the cap issue has nothing to do with NEC and everything to do with the "luck of the draw" as it were, they just happened (unknowingly) to buy a bulk quantity of these flawed caps for the first-gen Duos.

[csgx1]

I think everyone pretty much answered this already, but to address the capacitor issue:

A certain mass manufacturer of surface-mount capacitors produced caps with a flaw in the general timeframe of 1991-1993. Any device, ANY device these capacitors are found in have the same issues. If any other console is less prone to the "leaky cap" issue, it's because they don't use capacitors that were produced by this manufacturer.

I used to repair Macintosh-line Apple computers from the 1986-1992 era, and there were two models (Classic II and SE/30) that utilized the exact same capacitors from the exact same manufacturer as the first generation Duos. These computers all had the same issues, the only recourse was complete capacitor replacement.

The earlier models (original Mac, Mac Plus, SE, etc) used a different brand of capacitor and to date, have had ZERO capacitor-related logic board issues.

It's possible (and somewhat likely) the SNES and Genesis used a different brand of capacitor than the first-generation Duos which could be why you don't hear more about cap replacements in those systems.

Long story short, the cap issue has nothing to do with NEC and everything to do with the "luck of the draw" as it were, they just happened (unknowingly) to buy a bulk quantity of these flawed caps for the first-gen Duos.

Yes, those pesky caps.  Another example of flawed caps during this time period is in car electronics.  Not sure if anyone cares here, but the Acura NSX had cap issues with the climate control panel.  A very common problem and almost all early NSXs 1991-1993 need(will need) caps replaced in the climate controller board.  An equal(or even higher) failure rate compared to the early duos. 


I've had more "bad luck" with NEC hardware than any other for some reason.  I've pretty much had ALL the common cap issues so far.   But there are some problems/issue that weren't cap related that I've experienced as well....bad lasers(PCE CDrom & Duo), bad RF out(TG16), bad power adapter(TG16), TG16 controller connector separated, Avenue 6 'A/B' switch broke and PCE CDrom2 gear striped.  Besides all the issue, PCE/TG16 is still my favorite.

[SuperDeadite]

Oddly the Japanese SFC RGB cables used the bad caps as well.  My cable was too dark, so I
popped it open, and nasty brown cap goo had leaked everywhere inside the connector. 
Replaced the caps, and the cable worked properly again.

[BEERS AND VIDEOS]

Aww man...  get a Duo r.. 

Just wanted to say a big thanks for everyone's input and support. Seriously, I appreciate it.

I hear about the Duo-R or RX from Blue and Bernie - is this really the most dependable of the NEC optical systems? Has anyone had better or worse luck with these or other systems in general?

[Mathius]

We just need to find you a Duo-r or rx and you'll be set!

I may forgo the idea of getting a Super CD unit for my SGX and go the modded Duo-R route. Seems the cheapest.

You are in the best Turbo/PCE community there is, so when a problem DOES surface there are plenty of nice people waiting to help you out.

[SignOfZeta]

I've come across dozens of broken Genesis and SNES systems

How does a SNES break? From my experience the things are as reliable as a Franklin stove. What breaks? The only problem I've seen is them turning a horrible piss color.

and pretty much every disc based console has issues.

Yeah, at least %50 of all Playstations and PS2s are probably in a land fill because the CDROM died. XB360s would be even worse if they didn't warrantee so many millions of them. Compared to the PCE, which was the very first system with an optical drive, they look like total fucking lemons.

My PCE/IFU/CDROM2 is 22 or 23 years old and it still works perfectly. Meanwhile I know people who have RMAed their 360s twice in the measly six years or so since its been out.

[Mathius]

Agreed. My Turbo Grafx w/ CD add on still works beautifully. Every now and then I get that scary grinding noise, and once the unit spazzed out on me just because my System Card was ever-so-slightly unseated. I think all in all, aside from the bad caps, they were manufactured well.

[OldRover]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

[nat]

That's a good wiki page, but it incorrectly states the "first flawed caps" appeared in 1999. This is absolutely false. The first wave of bad caps to flood the market was in 1991, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

There were basically two entirely separate "epidemics"; the 1991-93 fiasco and then the later one they reference on that wiki page.

Ironically, Apple Computer products were greatly affected by BOTH epidemics. The Classic II and SE/30 line (as I mentioned above) the first time around, and then the G5 iMacs the second time around.

[thesteve]

great article.
not the issue with ours.
the cap failures in the turbo devices is due to evap.
poor seal plugs in the capacitor cause premature evap/drying of the caps, and reduction of the capacitance.

[Mathius]

That's a good wiki page, but it incorrectly states the "first flawed caps" appeared in 1999. This is absolutely false. The first wave of bad caps to flood the market was in 1991, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

There were basically two entirely separate "epidemics"; the 1991-93 fiasco and then the later one they reference on that wiki page.

Ironically, Apple Computer products were greatly affected by BOTH epidemics. The Classic II and SE/30 line (as I mentioned above) the first time around, and then the G5 iMacs the second time around.

You should edit that wiki then.

[nat]

great article.
not the issue with ours.
the cap failures in the turbo devices is due to evap.
poor seal plugs in the capacitor cause premature evap/drying of the caps, and reduction of the capacitance.

You're correct in that the flaw in the Duo-era capacitors is of an entirely different nature than the flaw in the millennium-era caps, but the end result is the same: the capacitor ends up dry, and the electrolytic gunk ends up all over the logic board.

[thesteve]

not quite...
in the duo era defect the capacitor ends up open, not shorting things out (directly at least)
the later failure the cap shorts causing possible chip damage.

[OldRover]

I think the 1999 meant to say 1989.

[PunkCryborg]

How does a SNES break? From my experience the things are as reliable as a Franklin stove. What breaks? The only problem I've seen is them turning a horrible piss color.

My original SNES I got in 1991 started having issues about 4 years ago where the color would flicker and then turn black and white. It eventually just turned black and white completely. It also became piss yellow which I thought was strange because it was always stored in cabinets away from direct light. The one I use now was my wife's that she got new in 1994 which has no yellowing whatsoever and looks great. There might be differences in caps and plastics used in early run systems.

[DragonmasterDan]

My original SNES I got in 1991 started having issues about 4 years ago where the color would flicker and then turn black and white. It eventually just turned black and white completely. It also became piss yellow which I thought was strange because it was always stored in cabinets away from direct light. The one I use now was my wife's that she got new in 1994 which has no yellowing whatsoever and looks great. There might be differences in caps and plastics used in early run systems.

Strange, at one point I think I had 7. A lot of them were goodwill pickups with games and what not, I started literally giving them away. Every SNES I'd ever come across worked.

[CrackTiger]

I've come across dozens of broken Genesis and SNES systems

How does a SNES break? From my experience the things are as reliable as a Franklin stove. What breaks? The only problem I've seen is them turning a horrible piss color.

I'm no technician, so I can't tell you how it happens. All I know is that I've personally tossed something like 6 SNES systems because they were dead and have known others who have had them die. I've also come across a few dead SFCs. I have something like 30 Genesis systems and the last time I tested most of them, something like a dozen had various problems. Most Sega-CDs I find in the wild don't work. Every TG-16 and PCE cart system that has passed through my hands (12 - 15?) has never had any problems other than my original TG-16 BITD. Long story short: it was just a result of physical wear/abuse and/or inconvenient design.

[thesteve]

original NES had cartridge slot failures constantly