Greatest HuCard of all time - Poll

[SignOfZeta]

I'd like you to explain what you are talking about because I'm not a casual player of Street Fighter and I don't see much of anything fundamentally different. They changed the sounds a bit, added assets, it counts combos and reversals. Does the whole game need to be rebuilt to do that? I'd be surprised if anything but the first of the CPS versions were ground-up constructions.

EDIT: It occurred to be that the biggest difference between builds of SFII on CPS as compared to CPS2 were probably just related to the way the boards were made. As far as I can tell the whole point of switching to CPS2 at all was to combat piracy. There were some other minor advantages, but they weren't that big of a deal. Kind of like the PSPGo. Of course, this tactic worked for Capcom, but didn't for Sony.

[spenoza]

I'd like you to explain what you are talking about because I'm not a casual player of Street Fighter and I don't see much of anything fundamentally different. They changed the sounds a bit, added assets, it counts combos and reversals. Does the whole game need to be rebuilt to do that? I'd be surprised if anything but the first of the CPS versions were ground-up constructions.

Well, I don't think either of us has enough insider knowledge to truly assert one way or the other. I'm pretty sure, but I don't really have anything to hold up, which seems to be the same for you. So I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree pending any actual evidence either way.

[FraGMarE]

Okay, I did a little more number crunching and I can say that unequivocally, absolutely, and without question there's NO way to fit all the SFII' CE data into 2Mbit (256KB) of RAM, even if you used the 64KB of ADPCM RAM for more data.  Take a look at the sprite rip of Chun Li below from the Genesis SFII:SCE.

/chunli.gif

I count 96 unique character frames.  So (96 frames x ~2KB per frame) x 2 characters = ~384KB.  Also consider this may or may not be a complete sprite rip, so if there are additional frames not in the sprite sheet, that adds more to the total.

Then I looked at the backgrounds from SFII' CE and they seem to use anywhere from 800-1000 unique 8x8 tiles.  Each 8x8 tile uses 32 bytes of RAM/ROM, so that means each background image uses roughly 24KB - 32KB of space.

So we're already up to ~416KB... Add in another ~8KB for misc. background sprites, another ~16KB for music/sound effects code, and sampled voices, and a possible ~32KB for game code and we arrive at ~472KB... WAYYYY more than would fit in the Super CD-ROM systems RAM.

[CrackTiger]

I would assume that any port of SSFIIT would have been based off of SSFII for SNES.

I can't imagine why they would go that route when they already had the bulk of it done for the SFII' HuCard. Fundamentally it's almost the exact same friggn game. Add some new characters and backgrounds, different endings, supers, make Ken's shouryuken burn people...thats about it.

That's what I mean, all thr 16-bit console ports are built off of the SNES World Warrior engine. SFII' PCE obviously used new assets found in the other CE/Turbo ports. If NEC did do a port of SSFII or SSFIIT, it would probably look like the Genesis and SNES versions of SSFII, instead of a new unique port based off of the arcade version.

[TurboXray]

I just looked at the SF2 hucard rom in TMOD2. E. Honda is 161k and Blanka is 143k. Assuming you had those two chars for a level, that's ~304k just for the frames. That doesn't include the code (game logic) or animation tables and other LUTs. And thoses frame sets are *packed* and optimized for size. No wasted space there (although uncompressed).

[awack]

I removed some of the duplicate frames, that leaves a total of 85 unique character frames.





On top of that, there are  frames with only 3 to 6 pixels separating them from each other, like below, while others only switch out heads, they still count of course. Doesn't seem all that impressive(in relation to this thread), but according to Bonknuts, they are uncompressed, while other types of games,some times use compression for sprites. 



But Bonknuts just posted this about memory use...

I just looked at the SF2 hucard rom in TMOD2. E. Honda is 161k and Blanka is 143k. Assuming you had those two chars for a level, that's ~304k just for the frames. That doesn't include the code (game logic) or animation tables and other LUTs. And thoses frame sets are *packed* and optimized for size. No wasted space there (although uncompressed).

[TurboXray]

1010 16x16 cells. Or ~128k for Chun Li (ripped from the sf2 hucard rom). No face/portrait frames or other sprites for her.

[Arkhan Asylum]

lol, that would make the most irritating slidey-matchup puzzle EVER.

[awack]

So, its about 13 or so Megs out of 20 that are used for sprites, leaving about 7 for sndfx,music, code, BGs and misc....now that i think about it, ken is nothing more than a Ryu sprite with a different head.

Makes you realize that the genesis port had enough extra memory for two new characters and their BGs.

[Arkhan Asylum]

So, its about 13 or so Megs out of 20 that are used for sprites, leaving about 7 for sndfx,music, code, BGs and misc....now that i think about it, ken is nothing more than a Ryu sprite with a different head.

Makes you realize that the genesis port had enough extra memory for two new characters and their BGs.

doodoodoodoodooooooooo doodoodoodoodoodoooooooooo doo doodoodoodoo DOO DOODOO DOO DOO.

/Guile

[FraGMarE]

All this talk about SF2:CE PCE makes me want to revive this project.  I completed all the graphical touch-ups, but nothing ever really got completed.   

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=7056.msg118845#msg118845

[CrackTiger]

All this talk about SF2:CE PCE makes me want to revive this project.  I completed all the graphical touch-ups, but nothing ever really got completed.   

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=7056.msg118845#msg118845

At least this much did-

http://pcedev.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/sf2-work/

[FraGMarE]

All this talk about SF2:CE PCE makes me want to revive this project.  I completed all the graphical touch-ups, but nothing ever really got completed.   

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=7056.msg118845#msg118845

At least this much did-

http://pcedev.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/sf2-work/

WOA!  That's my bg edit, alright... Tom must've started doing something with it.  O_O

[SignOfZeta]

I'd like you to explain what you are talking about because I'm not a casual player of Street Fighter and I don't see much of anything fundamentally different. They changed the sounds a bit, added assets, it counts combos and reversals. Does the whole game need to be rebuilt to do that? I'd be surprised if anything but the first of the CPS versions were ground-up constructions.

Well, I don't think either of us has enough insider knowledge to truly assert one way or the other. I'm pretty sure, but I don't really have anything to hold up, which seems to be the same for you. So I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree pending any actual evidence either way.

So...even though there was no reason to build the game from the ground up, and no significant appreciable difference in sound, graphics, or gameplay, you are for some reason just assuming that the game was rebuilt from the ground up for Super...well, OK.

My point is that if a ACD version of SSFIIX was to be made by NEC or Hudson you wouldn't have to do that (even if it was done with the CPS versions, which I doubt, see: Occam's razor) and you wouldn't need to port anything from a SNES game (the source for which NEC would't even have access too). Building the game again or porting it from SNES before adding the Turbo elements...those are just needlessly complex directions. There isn't any logical reason whatsoever to do it when %80 of Super Street Fighter II Turbo already exists in the form of SFII'.

Step 1: Re-open the SFII' project

Step 2: Convert project to an ACD (hardest part?) while adding new routines for combo counting and reversal bonus.

Step 3: Add new characters, BGs, endings, moves, and color tweaks.

Step 4: Replace some sounds

Step 5: Compile image, ship, and profit...or more likely, loss

This is, more or less, what SNK did almost every year when KOF came out.

Maybe you guys have forgotten that these are all versions of Street Fighter Fucking II. It didn't change that much at all during those 5 games. In fact, the upgrades to the earlier games were done by swapping a few 24 pin ROMS and keeping the vast majority of the board.

[OldRover]

It wasn't rebuilt for Super, and you can tell just by looking at the hardware differences between the PCBs... let alone looking at the dump of the program code. Nearly 90% of the code is unchanged between Champion Edition and Super. There are some minor changes in a few of the state machines (bugfixes, probably) with some additional states added for some characters and a few new control schemes, plus new entities added (for the new characters), some interface changes, and updated sound code can be found in the sound controller portion, with an interesting change in the music playback "flagging" subroutine. Core logic was only enhanced slightly, with some minor tweaks to just a few of the characters' AI cores (Dhalsim, Vega/M.Bison, and Balrog/Vega got the biggest tweaks, but Guile, E.Honda, and Blanka were virtually unchanged from CE... the rest had minor but noticeable tweaks). Underneath all the smoke and mirrors of the shiny new graphics and smooth new sound, the game is still pretty much the same old thing.

SOURCE: what I remember from an old post on romhacking.net, I believe it was...

[spenoza]

So...even though there was no reason to build the game from the ground up, and no significant appreciable difference in sound, graphics, or gameplay, you are for some reason just assuming that the game was rebuilt from the ground up for Super...well, OK.

I didn't say I thought they rewrote the engine from scratch, just that I think it's more than a couple bug fixes. I think they did some digging around and made some significant changes. That doesn't mean they trashed everything and started over. They did re-do an awful lot of the graphics and sound assets. The SFC version didn't update the original character graphics much, if at all, but the arcade did for many of them. So I you are right, in one sense. If they did just another port using the SFC graphical assets it wouldn't be as much change as if they did an original arcade port. But if you're going to create an ACD game, why settle for a SFC port? Why not do it one better and actually show off the hardware? If it's just the same game as the SFC version than why would anyone bother getting the ACD version, unless they just didn't happen to have an SFC?

Rover, % code change isn't nearly as important as what code was changed. You can change only 5% of the code in a project and still end up making massive functional changes.

I'm starting to think this is a matter of perspective, really.

[TurboXray]

Isn't this whole back and forth between new engine/game written from ground up or just modified existing engine, the context of this discussion? Games tend to exist as engines and not everything hard coded. They're modular and allow changes and adaptations. That's the whole point of the ACD getting SF2. An engine already existed for the PCE via the CE release. You don't need to re-write a new engine from the ground up, thus less development time require/involved and thus less expense to produce the game. That said, any number of things could have been added or redone. You can change the pixel art without having to make a new game (sprites or BGs). I would assume something would have been upgraded or made additional to the ACD port vs the SFC port (other than CDDA). 

WOA!  That's my bg edit, alright... Tom must've started doing something with it.  O_O

He did. You can call me Watari. I'm one of the few that knows 'T' in real life ;)  Mednafen (a number of builds back) included the new SF2+ mapper support that supports 68megabit hucards (the mapper is simple to make in real life, but the dev cart has to be custom and fairly large in size). It's just a simple extension of the SF2 mapper, but ranges $1ff0 to $1fff instead of just $1ff3. This build, IIRC, was used to test out the new replacement BG (new BG data inserted just pass the 20megabit range of the original).

[Arkhan Asylum]

He did. You can call me Watari. I'm one of the few that knows 'T' in real life ;)  

You know you've revealed/admitted yourself to be Tom like 5 different times on here, right?  You can stop pretending you aren't him.  

Just sayin'.


and, back on topic, What would the benefit of SF2CE on SCD have been to people, if it were even possible/done?

I've noticed in the past some people (not on here in particular) prefer SCD games over HuCards almost always.   Is it some doofy placebo effect?

ITS ON CD THEREFORE BETTERER.

We all know this isn't always true.


or something?

[Vecanti]

He did. You can call me Watari. I'm one of the few that knows 'T' in real life ;) 

and, back on topic, What would the benefit of SF2CE on SCD have been to people, if it were even possible/done?

I've noticed in the past some people (not on here in particular) prefer SCD games over HuCards almost always.   Is it some doofy placebo effect?

For me I prefer HuCards.  One because HuCard's are just plain cooler. 2nd it's seems (especially back then) more of a technological feat getting 20meg on to a HuCard and certainly gave a lot of credibility to the system, and of course 3rd HuCards have no load time!

I was personally more curious about it all from a technical limits of the SCD system itself stand point.  In this case it seems that SFII was that barrier.  Pretty interesting discussion.

[Arkhan Asylum]

It depends for me.   but it seems alot of CD games could have been HuCards, but maybe cost/mfg are what made the CD format more useful.

and more reliable!

I sometimes wish CD games had more chiptunes than they do.  Some of the 90s CD audio was so frigging corny.

[SignOfZeta]

I didn't say I thought they rewrote the engine from scratch, just that I think it's more than a couple bug fixes. I think they did some digging around and made some significant changes. That doesn't mean they trashed everything and started over. They did re-do an awful lot of the graphics and sound assets.

They really didn't change that many graphics from OG SFII to SSFIIX. There were a few basics added (Chun Li got a new standing high kick at some point, Super, I think), There were some new moves like Chun Li's Kikouken (which was originally made from existing frames in SFII' Turbo, but got its own animation in Super). Everyone got a super in SSFIIX. The endings changed. The re-drew Ken/Ryu's hadouken at some point. Ken has a flaming fierce shouryuken.

When it comes to things like standing, jumping, punching kicking, win pose...the stuff that makes up the vast majority of all the graphics, that shit hardly changed at all. Less popular characters like Guile and Zangief are almost indistinguishable between World Warrior and Grand Master Challenge.

The SFC version didn't update the original character graphics much, if at all, but the arcade did for many of them. So I you are right, in one sense. If they did just another port using the SFC graphical assets it wouldn't be as much change as if they did an original arcade port. But if you're going to create an ACD game, why settle for a SFC port? Why not do it one better and actually show off the hardware? If it's just the same game as the SFC version than why would anyone bother getting the ACD version, unless they just didn't happen to have an SFC?

Ok, seriously, do you actually know Street Fighter very well? I'm obviously not talking about an ACD port of the SFC version because there IS no SFC version of SSFIIX to begin with.

The latest SFC version is just regular Super, not Super Turbo, and it is a more or less complete version of that game. Everything that was changed going from Turbo to Super in the arcade (new sounds, new fireball animation for Chun Li, flaming shouryuken, dorky new "Tiger Knee!" sample for Sagat, new endings) was also changed with the SFC version. I can't think of anything that was left out. It obviously doesn't have any of the Super Turbo changes because it isn't Super Turbo. The only home versions of Super Turbo (then, anyway) were 3DO and Marty.

I'm starting to think this is a matter of perspective, really.

Its like this. NEC had SFII', and it was mighty good. In order to make SSFIIX all they had to do was edit the new elements in.

It wouldn't make any sense to build it from the ground up since the project was already %80 done.

It *really* wouldn't make any fucking sense at all to use any aspect of the SFC version since it isn't Super Turbo. You'd have to port the thing to PCE, re-format it so it would load from a CD, then add all the Super Turbo assets (the super moves, the new sounds, the endings) in because they don't exist in Super.

It makes a lot more sense to just port develop a CD version of the game they ready had and did such a good job with, and then add everything that changed from SFII' to SSFIIX in one go.

[CrackTiger]

Obviously the MD and PCE SFII' ports were based on the evolving SFC SFII engine/game. A PCE port of Super or Super Turbo wouldn't need to port EVERYTHING from the SFC SSFII from scratch. But if they were going to update the PCE port's engine, why would they convert all the new sprites from scratch based on the arcade and try to make them match the current ones instead of porting them from the SFC/MD Super games?

And why wouldn't NEC have access to the SFC/MD assets since they did for the CE port? By the same logic that says that they would build off of the PCE SFII', they would also use assets from the existing SUPER ports. That's how all six 16-bit console ports of SFII were done.

[TurboXray]

You know you've revealed/admitted yourself to be Tom like 5 different times on here, right?  You can stop pretending you aren't him.  

Just sayin'.

Heh, you disappoint me. Yeah, I think my comment must have went over your head (sorry, sometimes my sense of humor requires a specific point of view and/or knowledge of references). If I really wanted to hide who I am, I'm smart enough to know how to ;) I.e. My statement makes fun of exactly the opposite.

[Arkhan Asylum]

You know you've revealed/admitted yourself to be Tom like 5 different times on here, right?  You can stop pretending you aren't him.  

Just sayin'.

Heh, you disappoint me. Yeah, I think my comment must have went over your head (sorry, sometimes my sense of humor requires a specific point of view and/or knowledge of references). If I really wanted to hide who I am, I'm smart enough to know how to ;) I.e. My statement makes fun of exactly the opposite.

oh.

well to be fair I was only half reading everything while doing something else, lol.  Hence me editing the post and adding more later when I remembered to finish reading stuff, hah

I still dunno wtf you're reference is about though.  care to elaborate?

[Digi.k]

for me Parodius Da!  very sure it was the first ever 8M HuCARD !!

[Nazi NecroPhile]

I still dunno wtf you're reference is about though.  care to elaborate?

No.  Googlerin teh cmmntemps yurshelf adn yule sea.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I still dunno wtf you're reference is about though.  care to elaborate?

No.  Googlerin teh cmmntemps yurshelf adn yule sea.

I golgo'd the comtents and all I got was Duke Togo.

[OldRover]

Rover, % code change isn't nearly as important as what code was changed. You can change only 5% of the code in a project and still end up making massive functional changes.

Umm... as a programmer myself, I am well aware of this, and this is also why I outlined exactly what was changed...

[spenoza]

Ok, seriously, do you actually know Street Fighter very well? I'm obviously not talking about an ACD port of the SFC version because there IS no SFC version of SSFIIX to begin with.

I've been talking about SSF2 this whole time, dude. I have not been talking about SSF2T. You've tried to bring it up, but I've doggedly stuck to talking about SSF2. The reason for this is my initial timeline post. SSF2T would have been so late to the party, had it ever existed, that one wonders if there would really be a point.

And I'm sorry, I misspoke on the porting thing. What I was referring to was that the SFC version of Street Fighter seems to be the version all the others are based upon. The SFC version had smaller character sprites, and all the other consoles based their versions off the SFC version and sprites rather than going back and re-doing everything from the arcade original. Saves time and money, yes, but it also means that it's hard to do the SFC versions one better, considering they are the reference point and not the original. For an ACD version of SSF2 I would have expected them to have aimed a little higher.

As for programming changes, there's no way to know. It all depends on how they programmed the PCE engine. If they used good, modular design practices maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but alternative programming methods could result in having to do an awful lot of digging to make some simple changes. In truth, I don't always know how easily amendable early console game engines are. I tend to assume they're initially coded to get the job done, not to be re-used or expanded, and thus will be a bitch to screw around with when making changes.

[blueraven]

G'88

[OldRover]

As a general rule... when you're coding something for size efficiency, modularity is a huge issue. You need to be able to reuse as much code as possible, as there's just not much room for redundancy. On the other hand, when you have plenty of room for code storage but are still dealing with slow CPUs, you will want to optimize for speed, which may involve writing several versions of the same subroutine, often changing details just slightly to account for difference in usage.

[Arkhan Asylum]

modularity is something you do always for games.  If not, you suck!

[OldRover]

Usually. Not always. I can think of just a few occasions where you need the last ounce of speed and end up writing redundant code with minor exceptions between subroutines to get it. It doesn't happen often but if you need that last push in speed, you should be willing to explore the possibility. Then again, a coder's suckitude isn't measured in their ability to modularize their code...

[Arkhan Asylum]

pfsht.  MODULAR OR GTFO.

lol

I like modular stuff.