PCEngine-FX.com

I'm so tired of this "My console X destroys your console Y because it has better: graphics, sound, music et al.". True gamers understand that most systems have good games. When you

seclude yourself from a console due to ridiculous fanboyism, you miss out on..well..good games!  Lets go over some of the talking points shall we.

The Sega Genesis has bland colors and therefore bad graphics: The Genesis has many brightly colored games with outstanding graphics!  Try playing a few before you make such statements,
    
     like....Crusader of centy, Monster World 4, Ranger x, Shining Force 1 and 2 and so many others.    

The Snes has muddy sound, the Genesis is so much better: Here's a hot one! Sound quality is subjective and audiophiles can be insanely stubborn. While the Genesis does produce excellent

     sound, anyone who thinks the Snes is a dud is nuts!  Donkey Kong Country, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy 6, Super Mario World, to name a few have incredible sound!

The Turbografx is only an 8-bit machine and simply does not stack up to the Genesis or the Snes:  The only people that could possible make a statement like this can't have ever played

     one! Gates of Thunder, Lords of Thunder, Sapphire, Castlevania X, and Spriggan for example are not gonna play on your typical 8bit.

My Machine is blasted and processed and is really 156 super bits, yours can't even make a ham sandwich:  This is one of my favorites. We all get a long lecture from Uber techs as to why

     there console is hot and yours is not. Many arguments break down into "What-ifs" that never actually made it into any commercial games.  Folks, hardware does matter to a point, after

     that, kick as programmers rule the day!

Yeah, I don't really get those. And people seem to forget it's not all in performance either. Well, some is, but for example, the debate between Xbox 360 and PS3 should really go deeper then it does :P
I have the most games for the 360 and it's the system where I play online the most. This is a combination of all of my online-playing friends having one, microphones and other necessary accessories can be gotten cheap by 3rd party and when it comes to multi platform games the 360 usually does perform rather well.

On the other hand, I really like the PS3's menu system, the fact that I don't need to buy an adapter cable to get digital sound output, that I can change the harddrive to another one should I please and Sony won't come to my house with an angry letter. Also, it's friggin region free and I can boot it up without being forced to log in to my profile.
Well, there are more differences as well such as you need a subscription to play online on the Xbox whereas the PS3 is free. But I've found that you actually seem to get a better online experience for that money, oh and group chat.

So, these two consoles represents two very different approaches and they speak to different people, and these people will never be able to get along :P Unless they buy both.

Quote from: Ji-L87 on 07/01/2012, 03:24 AMSo, these two consoles represents two very different approaches and they speak to different people, and these people will never be able to get along :P Unless they buy both.

I own both 360 and PS3, but they sit around collecting dust. I play my Turbo/PCE the most, when I find the time. Those two just don't compare. =;

But it's a fact, the PCE is better than the MD/Genesis and SFC/SNES.

of the 3 major consoles on the 16bit era I would venture to say that the SFC did not age well.

true!

Did not age well how? In terms of graphics? In terms of sound? In terms of the look of the console itself?  All three of these game systems are still being played by millions as virtual games on the DS, Ipad, Wii, etc... Snes\SFC games have been remade for damn near every console over the last 10 years and are still selling millions. Is this your idea of not aging well?  These things are subjective and far from fact. 

Now, the Pc-engine duo-r being the sexiest console on the planet, thats a fact :)

SNES music makes me want to barf
(http://gamecola.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/rcr.jpg)

Herc: All of the above sorry. Dont get me wrong there are some sfc games that look and sound amazing but none that a) I care to own or b) dont already own on some other system.

I own a handful of MD games that were never ported to other systems and I own more PCE games than any other system (PS2 is a close 2nd). SFC just falls flat in my book.

The games make all the difference. End of story.

I ignored the Snes during most of the 90's except when certain titles were released for it. For the past few months now I have been going back and playing stuff I did not play prior, and I feel it has indeed held up well. I mean, its not one of those things either where you just have to pick the cream of the crop titles either, but seriously of all the titles I own, other then a select few there isn't too many that fail to impress me on some level. The stuff I have right now is:
Hyperzone (Visually pretty, but meh not very fun)
Super Metroid (Played though this when it originally came out, will always be a awesome title)
Super Smash TV (Awesome mindless fun, and its the best looking and sounding 16 bit port of the game)
Batman Returns (Awesome graphics,awesome soundtrack, and easily one of the best beat'em ups on the system)
Phalanx (Pretty solid graphics and the music is decent, but the sound fx are meh, barely above average shooter)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 (People always rag on this port because the Saturn and PS1 ports are better, but lets face it, its no worse a port then Super SF 2 was on Snes, and no one was ragging on that when Super SF2 Turbo was released on 3DO. The graphics and animation are good for a Snes title,and the game controls fine. Its worse aspect is the music really, as it sounds a bit tiny)
Super Fire Pro Wrestling X ( Its Super fucking Fire Pro Wrestling X, it has Big Van Vader and Sabu in it, along with most anyone else that mattered in the mid 90's, and its worlds better then all the prior Fire Pro titles)
F-Zero (Still holds up well. Easy controls and  a fast framerate, and the visuals and music work extremely well)
GunForce (Irems early Metal Slug effort. as a arcade port its solid. As a original game, its not too bad, but nothing mind blowing)
Cybernator (Awesome game on all counts, nothing else needs to be said)
Super Mario World (Who doesn't fucking like this game?)
Arkanoid (Simple visuals but great fun)
Pilot Wings (Much like F-Zero, the game just has a certain appeal and holds up well)
Street Fighter 2 (Great port over all)
Fatal Fury 1 (Visuals ported over well, as did the voices. music is obviously not as good as the Neo. ok fighter, not the greatest, not the worst, Neo or otherwise)
Fatal Fury Special (Probably one of the best arcade ports on the system for what the kept in versus what they left out. As a fighter in general its top notch)
Pilot Wings (Much like F-Zero, the game just has a certain appeal and holds up well)
Street Fighter 2 Turbo (Great port over all)
Legend of Zelda Link to the Past (Often imitated but never duplicated)
Art of Fighting (For what they were able to keep in the game ported over well, but honestly the game should have used a larger cart size then 16meg. If they would have went with even 20 to 24 or something the game would have been a much better port for it)
Spiderman and Xmen Arcades Revenge (It sounds like shit so I haven't even bothered to try it)
Super Castlevania 4 ( Simply a classic. Great graphics, music, gameplay. Nothing bad to be said about it)
Chuck Rock (Not a fan of this one, though I know others adore it)
Battle Blaze (Dont know wtf Sammy was thinking here,barely average title)
World Heroes 1 (Excellent port. Most of the Neo game was kept in. Amazing considering the game is a 16 meg port.Makes me think Sunsoft should have handled all the Neo to Snes ports)
Super Chase HQ (Rather fun game and it looks good over all)
Mega Man X (Mega Man on roids)
Final Fight (Not going to judge this by the US release, as its censored. The SFC release is the one I own, and in general its a great port, regardless of what is missing. Considering the time it was released, it couldn't have been easy to do.)
Final Fight 2 (SFC version also is uncensored so thats the one I own. Good game over all, but I like FF1 more.)
Front Mission Gun Hazard (Fucking awesome game)
Magic Sword (As with Final Fight, a very ambitious port done early in the systems life. Over all its solid and still fun to play. If you're going to buy it, grab the SFC version for the better cover art.)
Dragon Ball Z Super Budoten 3 (Decent 1 vs 2 player fighter.Nothing special or anything though.)
Gradius 3 (Will always love the Snes port. Like it a lot more then the original arcade release. Great graphics,music, and sound fx. Top notch control. Some people bitch about the slowdown, its not really that big a deal.
Super R-Type (Basically what I said about Gradius 3 applies to this one also.)
Darius Twin (It's a Darius title. Its par for the course where that is concerned. Over all it's one of the better Snes shooters.)
Rival Turf (Decent beat'em up over all. Good start to a decent series of games on Snes/SFC.)

My son has a Snes also and a few games I gave him like Super Mario All Stars, Killer Instinct and others, and he has access to my stuff. Given he wasn't alive during the Snes heyday,or even old enough to game during the end of the Snes lifespan, he is pretty impressed by the system. Thats usually a good sign that a system has stood the test of time.

Opethian, dont need to apologize to me. I put this in fighting street on purpose for the sake of debate. You and punkic and everyone else are entitled to your opinions. I just have to know. Have either of you played Secret of Mana, Seiken Densetsu 3, Lufia 2, Tales of Phantasia, Star Ocean, Donkey Kong Country, Super Castlevania 4, Legend of Zelda Link to the past, Super Metroid, Super Mario Kart?  If so, even if you guys can't find one game in there you like (if you can't, i doubt you understand the concept of what quantifies as good games), then atleast you can appreciate the musical score of atleast a few of them. Have you even listened to them. You see, the difference is, i like all the systems and understand the Gems they have. I'm not ass-hat enough to limit myself to just one or the other because i want to fit in with a select group. Fanboyism is hilarious when you think about all the good stuff so called gamers miss out on due to ignorance. In the last two months I have finished Three turbo games (two cd, one hucard), two gameboy advance games, one snes game, one genesis game, three pc games, and i'm working on a sega master system game.

/22665976.jpg

I knew someone would post that

I just play them all.  They all impress me. 

I like the SNES music.

http://youtu.be/GtptCBuJ_V4

This is some good shit.

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/01/2012, 02:04 PMOpethian, dont need to apologize to me. I put this in fighting street on purpose for the sake of debate. You and punkic and everyone else are entitled to your opinions. I just have to know. Have either of you played Secret of Mana, Seiken Densetsu 3, Lufia 2, Tales of Phantasia, Star Ocean, Donkey Kong Country, Super Castlevania 4, Legend of Zelda Link to the past, Super Metroid, Super Mario Kart?  If so, even if you guys can't find one game in there you like (if you can't, i doubt you understand the concept of what quantifies as good games), then atleast you can appreciate the musical score of atleast a few of them. Have you even listened to them. You see, the difference is, i like all the systems and understand the Gems they have. I'm not ass-hat enough to limit myself to just one or the other because i want to fit in with a select group. Fanboyism is hilarious when you think about all the good stuff so called gamers miss out on due to ignorance. In the last two months I have finished Three turbo games (two cd, one hucard), two gameboy advance games, one snes game, one genesis game, three pc games, and i'm working on a sega master system game. 

Yes I played most those games when they were new and I had time to play games all day. Did I like them enough to own them 20 years later? I dont have the time to run through all those RPGs again. I like chooter games these days and SNES has the fewest of the 3 (PCE/MD/SFC). So thats why SFC falls flat to me. PCE has the most exclusive next to Megadrive. SFC lol all I can name off the top of my head is Axelay and Biometal.

Audo! Video! 3DO!

So in short opethian, you admit to being subjective due to a shooter preference. Thats perfectly fine if thats what you prefer to play. But it has jack squat to do with the abilities of the system. the snes has plenty of good shooters, you gotta play the jap ones as well :)

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/01/2012, 07:46 PMSo in short opethian, you admit to being subjective due to a shooter preference. Thats perfectly fine if thats what you prefer to play. But it has jack squat to do with the abilities of the system. the snes has plenty of good shooters, you gotta play the jap ones as well :)

Plenty of good slowdown as well ;)   Abilities =/= why someone should like a system....those abilities are only one of MANY things that make a game great.

Herc"SNES LOVER"TNT

We all know all those "systems" are pure shit compared to the mighty CDi
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Philips_cdi_450.jpg)

who cares about ability show me the games. ok I seen the games what games could still captivate me in my 30s? Are you some SFC messiah? Do you think SFC is the best of the 3 16bit era consoles? Looks like you can be wowed by a DSP chip. I was naming the japanese games lol most of the SFC games are plagued with slowdown as nectaris said. Why did they not port Tatsujin to the SNES? Genny got it, PCE got it, but not SFC? oh thats right it probably cant handle the game and thats probably why. I mean even Raiden was ported to every console that mattered and the SFC is byfar the worst port.

Quote from: Opethian on 07/01/2012, 09:39 PMwho cares about ability show me the games. ok I seen the games what games could still captivate me in my 30s? Are you some SFC messiah? Do you think SFC is the best of the 3 16bit era consoles? Looks like you can be wowed by a DSP chip. I was naming the japanese games lol most of the SFC games are plagued with slowdown as nectaris said. Why did they not port Tatsujin to the SNES? Genny got it, PCE got it, but not SFC? oh thats right it probably cant handle the game and thats probably why. I mean even Raiden was ported to every console that mattered and the SFC is byfar the worst port.

No, but I'm the fucking SNES messiah and you cannot deny Axelay is better than 90% of the shooties on the PCE. It's an amazing game and still looks and sounds amazing today!

So there, one game.   HA!!

fuckers

lol, SNESSY Raiden truly is some really bad shit. I coulndn't believe my eyes, when I frist played it.

But it's a fact that the SFC/SNES isn't hardcore enuff to compete against the PCE. everything is way too softened on it. and I mean that in a very literally way.

Firepower 2000 is pretty balls tough.

SNES/SFC is awesome.  IMO, it's second only to the TG16/PCE.

Axelay is awesome.

But nine times out of ten I'd rather play any of the Soldier games on the TG/PCE.

There are a ton of really awesome SNES/SFC games. There are a ton of awesome Genesis/MD games.  Heck, there are even a ton of awesome NES and SMS games.

They are all wicked cool.  NEC is better, but they are all still awesome.

Opethian, i did show you the games, i listed quite a few, as did professor. If you were reading my posts you would see that i love all systems, i just don't get your hate for the snes. Writing off an entire games system that has thousands of games is a classic symptom of extreme fanboyism. Its ok, its your business. Besides, i'm just stirring up debate because this is fighting street. At the end of the day what i say means squat so dont take it to personally.

Punkic, for fighting street that was a really lame.  The least you could do is tell me that i'm lower than whale dung on the bottom of the ocean. And don't laugh, i used to own a cdi.............."sniffle" those were the days.....

lol, just waiting for the arrive of SuperDeadites SNES hate. Then it goes real round here.

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/01/2012, 11:41 PMPunkic, for fighting street that was a really lame.  The least you could do is tell me that i'm lower than whale dung on the bottom of the ocean. And don't laugh, i used to own a cdi.............."sniffle" those were the days.....

pshhhh used to own just one? I own 2

p.s. fuck you

is that better?

Yea alittle. I bought my cdi mistaking it for a game system. In that category they did not do so well, atleast in my opinion. I understand they played movies really well before dvd was available. You had to buy the addon mpeg cartridge though and they were really expensive. What do you use your cdi for out of curiosity?

i use the 910 as a base to stack other useless shit on top. I jsut got the video cart for the 450 and i intend to play BurnCycle one day on it

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/02/2012, 12:25 AMWhat do you use your cdi for out of curiosity?

Beating Snerds  :twisted: :lol:

LOL, okay that works.

Quote from: nectarsis on 07/02/2012, 12:30 AM

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/02/2012, 12:25 AMWhat do you use your cdi for out of curiosity?

Beating Snerds  :twisted: :lol:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Facebook-like-button.png)

Quote from: Opethian on 07/01/2012, 09:39 PMWhy did they not port Tatsujin to the SNES? Genny got it, PCE got it, but not SFC? oh thats right it probably cant handle the game and thats probably why. I mean even Raiden was ported to every console that mattered and the SFC is byfar the worst port.

Tatsujin wha? SNes/SFC has:
Darius Twin
Choujikuu Yousai Macross - Scrambled Valkyrie
Gradius III
Super Nova
R-Type III: The Third Lightning
Super R-type
Sonic Wings
Super Aleste
U.N. Squadron
Marchen Adventure Cotton 100%
Gokujou Parodius
Jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius


And just to rub it in a little more, neither PCE or Genesis has fucking Contra 3, Super Castlevania 4, Super Metroid, Super Ghouls'n Ghosts, Actraiser 1 and 2, or Hagane either. Slowdown is on all the systems. Get over it. Even the fucking NeoGeo has slowdown. All the systems have exclusive titles making them special. No system really totally one upped the other if you take both the Japanese and US library into consideration, except maybe if you take the action/run and gun and beat'em up side of things into account. Then the PCE falls flat on its face. It seriously has nothing that can really stand up to the likes of Contra 3, Shinobi 3, Gunstar Heroes, Cybernator, Metal Warriors, Mega Man X series, etc so it just gets curb stomped (yeah, keep holdin yer breath for that one Mindrec Contra wannabe, like I said 5 years ago, it aint gonna happen).

Beat'em ups it barely pulls it off with Riot Zone, Double Dragon 2, River City Ransom, Ane-San, and Vigilante. Nothing on it can really compare though to Streets of Rage 2-3, Double Dragon 1, Batman Returns, TMNT Turtles in Time, The Combatribes, Super Double Dragon, Final Fight 1-3, Splatterhouse 3, Rushing Beat Ran & Shura. PCE is a awesome system, but it just doesn't do well in those two areas, where as the Genesis and Snes tend to battle it out with each other. All the systems have great RPG's, fighters, platformer/adventure titles, and shooters.

neither das SNES or MD have an Akumajo Dracula X - chi no rondo, which kicks any 8-/16bit released castlevanias arses with a landslide.

and for any kind of shooters, pce is the definite 8-/16bit shooter king. comparing it to a whimpy snesy alone is ridiculous to no end.

even I appreciate shooters like axelay (wonderful grafx), super aleste (good action), scamble valkyre (allround a very good shewty), they have no bread against the kings on the pce like GoT, WoT, Spapphire, Spriggan, Nexzr, Star Parodier etc.

Darius Twin <simply terrible Lets port a Darisu game but cut out all the braching paths to make it fit on a SFC cart! brilliant!

Choujikuu Yousai Macross - Scrambled Valkyrie < I have not played this one but I'll check it out. Is it any better than Macross 2036 on PCE?

Gradius III <baby mode as compared to the arcade.

Super Nova < Darius Force? Looks like an exclusive SFC release! Havent played it yet. Im not the biggest Darius fan though

R-Type III: The Third Lightning <another SFC exclusive doesnt really fit in with the other R-Type games. Pulstar should be considered R-Type III

Super R-type <They took some of R-type II and basterized the game. More slowdown than the arcade sadly

Sonic Wings < only system this was ever ported on? It is not bad

Super Aleste <This game is an abomination. Both Spriggan and MUSHA Aleste run circles around this game. Sorry Compile I know this was probably the best they could do with the hardware.

U.N. Squadron <not a bad port for a mediocre capcom shooter

Marchen Adventure Cotton 100% <another arranged for SFC due to limitations

Gokujou Parodius
Jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius <I guess until the saturn/ps1 ports this was the only way to play them. They are better than nothing I suppose

I still have no use for this system.

snes-cartridge-urinal.webp

hahaha, finally a good use of those bricks :D

SNES- the only system you want to pee on

Well, you guys win. I have finally seen the light. I took my sega genesis and my super nes and threw them into a steel cage. Neither system actually moved or anything, but i'm sure if they did, the Genny would have kicked the snes's ass. Using that logic it's pretty obvious the snes has become irrelevant.  I would have thrown my turbo into the cage with them, but its on steroids and would have been DQ'd.  Now if you will excuse me, a friend of mine bought me neutopia yesterday, so i'm gonna go play my turbo.

Come on herc dont give up so easily! you asked for this :D

LOL, oh i'm not giving up, i just suck at photoshopping and that picture punkic posted is epic.   =D>

best use of EA sports titles!

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/02/2012, 08:54 AMWell, you guys win. I have finally seen the light. I took my sega genesis and my super nes and threw them into a steel cage. Neither system actually moved or anything, but i'm sure if they did, the Genny would have kicked the snes's ass. Using that logic it's pretty obvious the snes has become irrelevant.  I would have thrown my turbo into the cage with them, but its on steroids and would have been DQ'd.  Now if you will excuse me, a friend of mine bought me neutopia yesterday, so i'm gonna go play my turbo.

In a steel cage SNES would crush Genny hands down!  What you think Gunstar Heroes and Phantasy Star II could survive an asswhooping from the likes of Peace Keepers and Soul Blazer?

(https://web.archive.org/web/20121128015422im_/http://roboawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/snes-sega.jpg)

Yea well, no one can argue with that. If you guys had one really solid leg to stand on when it comes to bashing the snes, it would be those fucking sports games. I used to play the real talk baseball on the genny and thought it was pretty damn good.

Joshua, i love the snes, but gunstar heroes crushes both those games

Quote from: Tatsujin on 07/02/2012, 07:28 AMneither das SNES or MD have an Akumajo Dracula X - chi no rondo, which kicks any 8-/16bit released castlevanias arses with a landslide.

and for any kind of shooters, pce is the definite 8-/16bit shooter king. comparing it to a whimpy snesy alone is ridiculous to no end.

even I appreciate shooters like axelay (wonderful grafx), super aleste (good action), scamble valkyre (allround a very good shewty), they have no bread against the kings on the pce like GoT, WoT, Spapphire, Spriggan, Nexzr, Star Parodier etc.

It speaks volumes when it ends up you feel you have to resort to cd-titles instead of hu-cards to offer up a comparison, but in the end other then Winds of Thunder, Spriggan, and Nexzr, the others are not amazing shooters you listed there. Gate of Thunder is good but not amazing. Sapphire is the prettiest dull shooter I have ever played through. Star Parodier is just slightly above average. The Hu-card side of things shouldn't be overlooked so I am gonna give you some freebees. Override, Gradius, Salamander, Aeroblasters, Raiden, Super Star Soldier, Soldier Blade etc, any one of those dances circles around dull fucking Sapphire.

Dracula X is definitely a great game, but its not the type of Castlevania I like really as much. The games style changed from the original Haunted Castle/Castlevania/Castlevania 4/Devil's Castle Dracula gameplay, and those are the ones I prefer to play any day of the week over Dracula X, SOTN, or even Bloodlines. Oh and remind me to never ask Opethian for game recommendations. Guy clearly has no taste and just a ton of blind bias lol.

LOLOK :D

btw. GoT = best shwety on plened earth and beyond of it (http://www.thegforum.ch/images/smilies/wixer.gif)

How could you name off Hucard shooters and not mention PC Denjin or Coryoon? ace hueycardo games!!

Every "hardcore SNES #1" spouting idiot I've met tends to have the same story.  They all grew up with the SNES.  Now if you were unfortunate enough to fall victim to the Big N's advertisements in the day and only had an SNES, I can understand one enjoying the totally lame, slow, flat, and incredibly boring game library.  You simply had nothing better to play.  And playing shit games over playing no games is common sense.

Just like if you are given the choice to fuck a nasty smelly crack-whore (99.9999% of canadian women), or sit on your ass and fap until you cry.  Fucking the canuk-cack is a logical choice and should not be looked down upon in that situation.

However once you've gone out into the world and found girls who are truly hot, you will never want to go back to the forzen wastelands, cause you've seen the light.  You know you were getting a bad deal and wasting your time with your mouth full of scabies.

Once you have spent time playing games on PCE, MD, NES, NeoGeo, X68000, MSX, DOS, Playstation, Saturn, Vectrex, 2600, Gameboy, and Virtual Boy, you realize there is absolutely no point in wasting your time with the SNES.  The SNES offers up nothing to rival the amount of fun and joy one can have with the above list of systems.

The SNES is just a waste of time, sucking away your precious life energy away from playing actual good, enjoyable games.  Everyone realizes this eventually.  The SNES is only good with the absence of all else.  Now if you are the typical childhood fan, you will probably try to hold on to some small part, like maybe 5 decent games or so, in order to justify all the time you wasted.  But this is just lieing to yourself and everyone knows it.  One must admit the fact that the SNES fucking sucks or they will never truly grow as a human being.  One will never be free to fuck virgin angels with 1980's boomboxes until they stare down their SNES and give it the middle finger.

I grew up with all the bitwars systems, because my Grandma worked at Sears and my parents kicked ass.

Arguing that you have no reason to play the SNES because of some of the other systems mentioned is a bit retarded.   The MSX is great, but it's a gooned up comparison.  So is comparing it to stuff that came out later, like Playstation and Saturn.  I mean, duh.

and, really, the 2600 and Virtual Boy?  uh.

Anyway, Pros for the SNES
--------------------------
Contra 3 (Arguably better than Hard Corps.  Untouchable by the PCE)
Lufia 1
Secret of Mana
7th Saga
Mega Man X games (Again, where's the comparable games elsewhere? They don't exist)
Maximum Carnage
Soul Blazer
Super Metroid (No comparable games, again)
Star Fox
the DKC games
Brain Lord
and if you want to start throwing in Japanese games, there are even more to expand on things.

I've got a bunch of other games to throw up there that are equally kickass.

So, I don't get what the problem is, unless you want to be an ass and go HUHUHUH THE PLAYSTATION HAD BETTER 3D AND FASTER STUFF, BECAUSE HHRUHUHH

Right, when you use the virtual boy and the 2600 as your barometer-O-quality you effectively disqualify yourself from intelligent discussion  :twisted:

I still don't understand the hate on the SNES/SFC.  I had a TG-16, Gen/MD before I got a SNES.  Hell I didn't even pay for the SNES.  I won it in a local WMJI radio contest going on with the Drug Mart chain.  We got it before launch.  I was all hatting on it before it was even out.  "Oh fuck this!  Look at it wanting to be like the Genesis and TG-16."  Then I got the system and wast quite impressed with the games.  I played the shit out of UN Squadron, Super Mario World (still don't understand Deadites hate for this) Mystical Ninja, Actraiser 1, Street Fighter 2, Super Adventure Island, Axelay, Super R-Type, Gradius 3, Smash T.V. Phalanx, Contra 3, Batman Returns, Super E.D.F.,  Demon's Crest, Batman and Robin, F-Zero, Lufia 1 and 2, Sunset Riders, Super Ghouls n Ghosts (yes I know its' slow  but I still love it), Ninja Wariars Again, Super Aleste, Lagoon, Super Castlevania 4, The Magical Quest Micky Mouse, Super Turrican, Super Turrican 2, TMNT Turtles in Time, Final Fantasy 4, Magic Sword, Yoshi's Island, Knights of the Round, Macross Scrambled Valkyrie, and even the poor Final Fight port.  It was the ONLY port of Final Fight at the time before the Sega CD.  Same goes for Gradius III and other arcade ports. They were great for when they were out. Comparing them to the Arcade years later cause you now have them and play them on a Super Gun really isn't fair.  For the time the SNES was a great non cd based system and I still rock out some Super Nintendo games from time to time.  I do enjoy my turbo and Gen more, but I never saw it as a piece of shit system.

I grew up with a SNES and played the shit out of a few games (Ultima VI, Mario Kart, SF2), but continued to log more hours on NES and SMS.

I don't understand why anyone has a strong opinion of the SNES one way or the other. It's a good system, but for my taste, the games have a "mainstream-ness" to them that foreshadows the Playstation era. Probably a combination of Nintendo's censorship, bigger budgets, and the generally more polished look of the graphics. There was some real innovation on Nintendo's end and titles like Mario Kart, Super Metroid, Star Fox, and Pilot Wings deserve respect, but I prefer the TG's assortment of oddball Hudson titles, old arcade ports, and early-CD experimentalism.

I think the SNES's vast repertoire of multiplayer games (fighters, racers, beat 'em up's) really helped it along.

Fuck yeah, Turtles in Time was the shit.

There were too many good SNES games to really discount the thing.

I mean, Secret of Mana is tits. 

There is nothing on the PCE to compare to Megaman X and Contra 3.   The closest you'll get is the Shockman series, but it pales in comparison to Mega Man X.

Even Super Bonk on SNES was a fun game.  F Zero is legit.

There are things every system excelled at.

PCE did not excel at Beat em Ups or Run n Guns.

Battletoads in Battlemaniacs, Pirates of Dark Water, Maximum Carnage...   there were a ton of kickass beat em ups on SNES.

and on Genesis. 

The PCE just didn't get them.   PCE dwarfs the SNES and Genesis as far as shooters and RPGs go.  There is no contest there.

but if I want to walk to the right and punch shit in the face, I have to turn elsewhere.  Vigilante, China Warrior, and Riot Zone only go so far

No beat em ups? what about Ane San, Tench Wo Kurao, Double Dragon, and Mad Stalker?

few things which are good about snes/sfc:

nice, for that time arcade like colors
basically good sound capabilities
much layers
real transparency
hardware/scaling ability
general strength: low paced games like RPGs (lots), not so much going on screen jump'n'runs, puzzles etc.

now few things which are not so good about snes/sfc:

most use of colors were blured out too much, which took a lot of the original possible arcade feeling.
most peeps didn't know of how to use the snes/sfc sounds capability, so most stuff is like low sampled muffled 08/15 tootling.
weak cpu (resp. low speeded cpu). no hidding here, most action games suffer from the SFC's low speed, which never let the system do the hardcore stuff like on the pce/md/arcade.

everything written above has its exceptions as always.

conclusion:

the snes/sfc undeniably had some of funny games, the question only is, were those games the type of games you liked or not?
also regarded to its huge game library, there wasn't a very good good stuff to game amount ratio (especially in japan). a thing the FC already was infected with. and fuck that nintendo seal of quality nonsense stuff.
if you like shoot 'em ups, you won't get more than one handful of good stuff. if you like to the western brought JRPGs, the system may be your dream console of life.
if you like evrything else like puzzles, platformers etc, you sure have some good choice on the system.

SMW is still one of the best and most fun bringing platformers of ever. Ganbare Goemon 2 f.e. is a 2nd close. very good and funny game, esp. in 2p. mode. unfortunate'y it also suffers a lot from the SFCs low speed.

SMB3 made SMW obsolete before the SNES even existed.

Quote from: PunkCryborg on 07/02/2012, 07:23 PMNo beat em ups? what about Ane San, Tench Wo Kurao, Double Dragon, and Mad Stalker?

Yeah, I guess.

but, Turtles in Time, Battle Toads, and Maximum Carnage kind of fuck those all up.

Turtles in Time is just fuckin awesome.

Well I love SMW a lot more than SMB3. :D

and I really liked SMB3.

Truer words have never been spoken geise. I love smb3, but mario worlds is on a whole new level!!

I don't think the one makes the other obsolete, since they both are completely different games and both have an equal raison d'être.

Who said it made smb3 obsolete? I still play smb3, so its far from obselete for me. I just believe that SMW is on another level. Thats not a fact, its a personal preference. Most people don't realize SMW was originally developed on the nes hardware using the smb3 game engine. When the snes hardware was finalized, SMW was ported over and finished.

here are some early screenshots  http://www.snescentral.com/article.php?id=0944

developement started around 86 or 87 and took roughly three years to complete.

SMW is still my favorite Super Mario game.  I never thought it would be due to the kiddie graphics and music I judged it with before I got my own SNES.

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/03/2012, 12:17 AMWho said it made smb3 obsolete?

the previous page did. but it said it vice versa :idea:

Duh, well, I missed that................. #-o

I said SMB3 makes World obsolete.  Learn to read.  SMB3 is amazing.  World? meh not needed.

To get back to consoles being better, I always loved the SMS a hell of a lot more than the NES back in the day.  The system just lacked 3rd party support.  It could've and should've destroyed the NES.

The more I learn about the PC-FX, the more I can't believe how NEC decided to go with that hardware at that time and that price. Some of it is at least on-par with the competition, but there's really nothing under the hood to get excited about. Japanese developers and gamers alike apparently felt the same way.

As much as I love the Saturn, and the way it looks like it was almost designed to be the ultimate 16-bit system, I have to admit that the PS1 probably had the best design and management of any console in history. The durability problems are kind of dubious, but aside from that, they really did nothing wrong with it. I can point at any other console out there and say what it ought to have had yet didn't, but not the PS1.

Oh, and the SNES fucking rules. So many masterpiece games...

I can't think of any SNES game I'd call a "masterpiece." ???

Too bad. I can.

Man, Deadite really hates the SNES. I can understand saying that the world would be better off without the Jaguar CD or the Virtual Boy or the Game.com or something, but attempting to shitcan a library of 700-800 games is a losing argument from the start. I think the only reason he hates SMW is because he hates the SNES.

Super just likes playing stuff most others don't get a chance to.  If it's mostly mainstream then it's garbage.  I can understand that to some degree, but not in case of the whole game library.

SuperDeadite is a hipster gamer.

"Your CDs and cartridges are too mainstream - gimme LDs, PCBs, and 5 1/4" floppies!"

Haha!  but LDs, PCBs, and 5 1/4" floppies are awesome!  :D

Maybe we can find some middle ground with hipster SNES games. How about Umihara Kawase?

Super Mario All Stars is a masterpiece and SMAS+SMW is an even greater masterpiece.

The great thing about the 16-bit generation, is that the three consoles have unique aesthetics and all three have unique libraries. Look at the PS3/360 libraries today, where the relatively small number of exclusives don't look unique for the hardware and could look and sound the same on the rival console.

Regardless of how much any one person appreciates the graphics, sound or misc of each 16-bit console, at least they all offered a unique experience, even when playing the same game on different consoles.

Quote from: SamIAm on 07/03/2012, 01:26 PMMaybe we can find some middle ground with hipster SNES games. How about Umihara Kawase?

Earthbound is the crowning jewel of hipster collections today. Because it's so obscure and the aesthetics are so unique and it's impossible to figure out.

Quote from: guest on 07/03/2012, 02:34 PMEarthbound is the crowning jewel of hipster collections today. Because it's so obscure and the aesthetics are so unique and it's impossible to figure out.

...and impossible tyo enjoy *cue guyjin*  :twisted: :lol: :-"

Dead head, I can read just fine. Its your delusional narrow mindedness (big word, read it slow) that's the problem.

SNES masterpiece?

Uh.

Secret of Mana.

Fucking duh.

That game had some of the best music the SNES ever played, and some of the coolest towns.

Matango, bitch.

Dont forget about chrono triggler.

Long live Secret of Mana, I have played through it 5 times, and will do it 5 more. DARK LICH theme music please!!! Any of you one track minded audio files need to find me one genny game that can deliver a sound track like Secret of Mana without the Sega CD. I love my genny, but its ok to admit that Mana's got it beat in the audio department.

About aging well. The worst console to age was the Mega Drive. Granted yes the games on it are 1980's styled, but the Mega CD and 32X was not so much a use. That is the problem I am having. The Mega Drive was great and all but

The SNES was the 1990's. The 1990's was just the super 80's. Granted the SNES does blow the NES away, the NES could have been intergrated with the SNES powers, but instead Nintendo decided to start the whole chain. I will admit, compared to the NES, the graphics and sound are bland and repetitive, and the SNES peak was all.

However the SNES title base, and standard is superior even to the PCE7
The SNES had all the powers from the NES granted, including the love of it's users. Then the SNES even had the powers of the Amiga granted ( more like stolen ) inside of it. So the SNES had the best of both worlds, in terms of 2d gaming. Granted the SNES is a weaker console compared to the PCE, it does slove many problems, that would cost a collector thousands of dollars to slove.

The SNES is what the Sega Saturn tried to be, and the PCE was. a nationalist system. Their are tons of titles on the SNES that are collectable and tons of inovations, however I will say this. If the games came in hardcore dedicated boxes, it would be easier to collect for. Instead they come in VHS sized boxes, which is an extreme pain in the arse.

The worst systems are the PS3, 360, and Wii. The Wii is just a GCN, dammit, the GCN has a slot for upgraded graphics. So why not? The
360 was released too early and the red rings of death is proof of that.
The X-box should have stuck around for awhile. In fact the X-box has tons of titles on it, but it also has the worlds most worst GUI screen ever, second the PS2. The PS3 I will admit has a lead, and their are titles on the console that are appealing ( like portal ). but at the same time the PS3 is not an X-box ( direct X-box ) and the Dreamcast believe it or not was practically an X-box. Sega basically said, okay everybody is using windows, C, and PPC os on a full service machine does not seem bad at all. Even NEC caved into the Windows users paradox.

The worst console that aged is the X-box. It was never fully utilized, and people attempting deving for it, and are actually afraid of the law.
The X-box is even better then the 360, because their is no red ring of death nonsense. The X-box even had Dreamcast titles on it.

Then of course the GCN. I mean seriously PN03...........Shinji made a futuristic game, with no logical explantions. Then that other capcom five was never released could have been utilized, as a comeback series.
Oh did I mention, the GCN ( now I am going to sound like a nerd ), was so avoided. Why end it, why cave in.

NEC should have stayed with the suitcase model PCE, and just upgraded the original system. It was the most perfect setup, and
thus the name PC-Engine worked for the whole thing. The worst move
was combining everything into one shell, and then making an
entirely new system all together. I think in the past computer owners,
could have their computers upgraded and serviced, for a small fee.
That is what the PCE was originally meant for, to a be a servicable,
system.

Next to the PCE, the gameboy is the best thing on this planet. The graphics aged just like the PCE, and was spectacular as well. Then some nut had to invent LSDJ and everybody calls chiptunes, that stuff.
The problem with LSDJ is the lack of a floppy disk and conversion tool,
for X PCM types. You can amp like an guitar, but does the amp stick?
no.

Of course the GameGear is probably the worst aged console, because it is just a portable Mark III. Granted the Gamegear has more colors, and sound etc......you can pretty much guess the fault of a game gear games.

What I love about the SNES, is the amass of titles to browse. The genesis has titles but man they suck. I mean PCE oh yeah all the way, but the cheeziness of the SNES is what draws people to it.

Fuck yeah, Regal!

The PCE is the king of upgrade and thats a good thing. I have no doubt that nec could have extended the life of the PCE duo even further with more of their kick ass engineering.  Sega attempted to do this with the 32x and the Sega CD. By and large the Sega Cd was a decent addon. The 32x was not when compared to the chips that nintendo was putting into there carts giving them almost the same abilities. I believe the 32x concept would have succeeded much better on the snes. Ideally I would have loved it if Nec had made some kind of super arcade card pro ass kicking edition for the duo increasing its abilites.  Sure the card would have been an inch thick, but even more memory, video and cpu upgrade, and some sort of fx like chip would have been nice. Not that i'm asking for much or anything :)

Quote from: RegalSin on 07/03/2012, 11:29 PM

The SNES is what the Sega Saturn tried to be, and the PCE was. a nationalist system.

Quote from: guest on 07/03/2012, 02:34 PMEarthbound is the crowning jewel of hipster collections today. Because it's so obscure and the aesthetics are so unique and it's impossible to figure out.

Of course, any real hipster would reject both games anyway. They're like an indie band that got popular. When that happens, you're only allowed to like them ironically.

Never cared for Earthbound.  Honestly RPGs didn't do much for me until Working Designs came around (besides a few on PC like Ultima Underworld).  They just actually made me care about the genre for the first time.  Could never get into Earthbound though, the whole "omg must call home or get homesick" thing just turned me off to it completely.  Good game or not, if I can't stand the main character, I'm not gonna enjoy playing it.

SNES, was something the 1990's had represented, Peace. Everybody, who was anybody had a foot in the SNES. If not the SNES then you was ruffing it on the Genesis, or dealing with Windows,DOS,Apple, Amiga land.

The Genesis was basically the cousin of the Atari, as rumors stated, that SEGA was originally an American game company. Sega back in the good days of the MarkIII gave people a chance to do all sorts of achievements, that was never done before.
I think that is part of the reason, why the Genesis had so much western support as well.

The SNES vs Genesis days was the best days any game player was in. If not then you was using a DOS PC, or an Amiga. Maybe even an Atari or an uhmmmmm Mac.
In fact those were the days of the underdogs.......... when you had a room full of Japanese anime and most of it was Hentai, you was playing music on a virtualkeyboard, and for not being a fighter from the WWE was not gazed upon as great.

QuoteSega attempted to do this with the 32x and the Sega CD. By and large the Sega Cd was a decent addon.

The Sega CD was sappose to outmatch, the SNES, CD-rom PCE, and other game systems. However you have Yuji Nanka to thanks for this. Sega flew him and a couple of other employees to US based shores, and jointed with Senn, and other development teams to create, Sonic 2 for the Genesis. Sonic 2 was never sappose to be released at all.

Back at home, the true creator of Sonic, Naoto Oshima ( whom I believe also created another Mark III game, worked on CD. In fact, CD was also worked on by an western 3rd party, who worked on the original Direct X series, and Sonic CD was part of that creation process.

However people being the cheap morons, decided to buy the Sonic 2 game for the Genesis, instead of the add-on all together. Honest to gosh, the add-on looked like a
joke, but Sega already had made plans from the begining and that is where they failed.

The 32X was a bigger flop because sometimes the games worked with the CD attachment, and sometimes they did not. How many games take full advantage of the 32X, and CD unit was released?

Nanka killed the Hedgehog and his team ( aka Sonic Team ) help that on the Sega Saturn as well. He wanted to go away from Sonic the hedgehog, and while nights was a great game, I believe Sonic R had a bigger booth setup. In Toys R' Us

QuoteEarthbound is the crowning jewel of hipster collections today. Because it's so obscure and the aesthetics are so unique and it's impossible to figure out.

Earthbound is what Linda is to the PCE.................so whoever said "hipster", needs to take it back. The way I see it, like a couple of other titles out their, people in Japan made videogames directed towards American auidience, or a non-videogaming auidience, or a pro-comic book auidience. The same people who made Strider, Secret Of Evermore, and Startropics. If Americans actually made a videogame featuring their own world, maybe, and just maybe we would have had our own Linda, type game but no, we do not. How in tarnation does the Ruben ren, comes up with the idea of Noahs Ark, but a western person can't even think outside of DAD, rap, and Superman. I will tell you why, because since the late 70's into 2001, it was the Christian era, ( post Korea/Vietnam/hippie/utopia( distopia ) ), and everybody was bowing down to the lord. The west had invented the idea of "why should we have to bow down to something that is invisible?" type way of thinking, which also played a part in WWE, and anti-society all together. 

So we had so much pent up rage and hate, anybody who was god like in any manor whatsoever, was deemed as insane, loser, pointless when in reality they are and have been still winning for years, to come. Did you know folks, that various studies are still around, among other high culture arts? Our heads was in smut, grit, and rubbish for many years to come, basically all of this stuff that makes being a youth
( a teenager cool ), and ruins peoples lives.

I wish I could own Earthbound, but seriously the game is not even worth it. What I hate, idiots out their are even starting that Grading BS, with videogames.

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/04/2012, 01:09 AMThe PCE is the king of upgrade and thats a good thing. I have no doubt that nec could have extended the life of the PCE duo even further with more of their kick ass engineering.  Sega attempted to do this with the 32x and the Sega CD.

but please never forget, very different to the Mega CD or the 32x, the pce never got any hardware upgrades for improving graphics or other technical issues. all it ever got was a cd-rom and some more ram only. so even in 1995 it technically was still on the tech level of october 30th 1987.

NEC figured, hey programming wise it was good enough. Our entire nation image is based of the fiction it produce. Why do even need to change or mess with perfection.

Instead NEC decided to make a dedicated system for Comic adventures ( Graphic adventures ) , Another Super Nintendo, called the Turbo Grafx. Hell the PCE animated cut scenes was ten times better, and could do rotation and zoom just like the SNES. The SNES rotation/zoom was probably the most enhanced, since the MegaCD/Saturn at least.

Have anybody ever played DBZ rpg on the SNES? They have some animated cutscenes ( which is most likely GIF files??? )that would be big and beautiful on the PCE.

The MCD was to provide everything that was on the SNES, including FMV, on a television, and 3d graphics. The 32X was provided because SEGA 3d chips inside one cart was terribly expensive to buy and make,
and they decided it was going to be cheaper to just make a fully functioning add-on device. The problem unlike the N64 expansion pack,
it was big hunka junk that would not let certain games play, including the Sega CD. They pretty much a N64 ( yes that is right ) an N64 that was never fully utilized, and nobody cared about.

Back to the Amiga love, we also have the Silicon Graphics love, which kept westerners ( especally in Europe ) on high heels, when it came to creating 3d videogames for the N64. The N64 was even used inside some films as well. Back in Nihongo, everybody was on the fast track of the PSX, and the Saturn, but people in the west had the idea, the N64 was numba one, and was the way to go.

LOL!  Silicon Graphics for N64 games... :lol:

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/04/2012, 01:09 AMThe PCE is the king of upgrade and thats a good thing. I have no doubt that nec could have extended the life of the PCE duo even further with more of their kick ass engineering.  Sega attempted to do this with the 32x and the Sega CD. By and large the Sega Cd was a decent addon. The 32x was not when compared to the chips that nintendo was putting into there carts giving them almost the same abilities. I believe the 32x concept would have succeeded much better on the snes. Ideally I would have loved it if Nec had made some kind of super arcade card pro ass kicking edition for the duo increasing its abilites.  Sure the card would have been an inch thick, but even more memory, video and cpu upgrade, and some sort of fx like chip would have been nice. Not that i'm asking for much or anything :)

The PCE was the only 16-bit  console that didn't get an upgrade to the hardware. It just has two media formats, like the SMS. Nintendo was the king of upgrades for two generations back then. The SNES launched with additional hardware in cart games and NES games used extra hardware even more often.

The Super CD and Arcade Card formats are no different than the huge cart sizes SNES games used.

I was mainly referring to starting off as a cart based console, then getting a cd, then upgrade carts. The reason i love the turbo so much is just how expandable it was and how competitive it was despite not having fancy chips or addons. Thats why i say, imagine if they had, considering what they pulled off without. My duo-r is my pride and joy and will remain so :)

Quote from: guest on 07/04/2012, 02:32 PM

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/04/2012, 01:09 AMThe PCE is the king of upgrade and thats a good thing. I have no doubt that nec could have extended the life of the PCE duo even further with more of their kick ass engineering.  Sega attempted to do this with the 32x and the Sega CD. By and large the Sega Cd was a decent addon. The 32x was not when compared to the chips that nintendo was putting into there carts giving them almost the same abilities. I believe the 32x concept would have succeeded much better on the snes. Ideally I would have loved it if Nec had made some kind of super arcade card pro ass kicking edition for the duo increasing its abilites.  Sure the card would have been an inch thick, but even more memory, video and cpu upgrade, and some sort of fx like chip would have been nice. Not that i'm asking for much or anything :)

The PCE was the only 16-bit  console that didn't get an upgrade to the hardware. It just has two media formats, like the SMS. Nintendo was the king of upgrades for two generations back then. The SNES launched with additional hardware in cart games and NES games used extra hardware even more often.

The Super CD and Arcade Card formats are no different than the huge cart sizes SNES games used.

I would actually disagree, because those extra chips and huge cart sized carts never required additional hardware to be purchased.  I love all three consoles, but you can play EVERY snes game with just the base SNES.  To play Sega CD, 32X, CD-rom2, SCD, ACD games you needed to upgrade your original PCE or Mega Drive.

NEC and Sega went nuts with the add-ons/upgrades to their software.  The big N stuck with their original design all the way to the shit-tastic N64.

Well yes and no, its true that you did not need to buy extra to play the snes games. However, nintendo and other companies shoved all kinds of extra chips into countless games that would not have been possible without them. Those chips raised the price of said games to cover the cost. Nec's system card upgrades expanded the capabilites of the system without transferring the cost to the games.  When the duo came out all upgrades sans the arcade card were included. While nintendo was able to pull off some games on the snes that were not possible on the duo, the duo's cd capabilities allowed for many games the snes could not handle. It all depends on how you look at it. For the record, nintendo developers were not thrilled with the big N over the addon chips. The cost of making the games went up, cutting into the developers profit margins.

The only thing the CD-rom did was made it easier for sound WAV data,
( WAV stored in PCM ) to used as background music. Games depending on the channels, could also have PCM playing in the background along with WAV data being used ( I am talking about hu-cards ). The next thing it did, was to allow the system card, to be used as memory, which has to be timed in comparison to direct CD access.

The SNES had the optional bigger storage chips, and whatever chips the company wanted to install, they had the option. Amazingly the NES also had the same option on the table. We could install a PS2 inside an SNES or NES cart slot and just use the AV output. That is why the SNES is prime.

However I got fed up with Nintendo's Ninconpoop. They made Link get married, and downsized his GCN final. They even made the crappy Wii.
Nintendo is not going backwards, and in comparison the PCE is a million times better in every which way........just not the SONY Mod player
that gave the SNES a unique sound, that the PSX could never captivate.

QuoteI would actually disagree, because those extra chips and huge cart sized carts never required additional hardware to be purchased.  I love all three consoles, but you can play EVERY snes game with just the base SNES.  To play Sega CD, 32X, CD-rom2, SCD, ACD games you needed to upgrade your original PCE or Mega Drive.

NEC and Sega went nuts with the add-ons/upgrades to their software.  The big N stuck with their original design all the way to the shit-tastic N64.

It's all relative. The bare-bones PCE and CoreGrafx, etc units were more of a stripped-down budget model like the SNES Jr, NES2, Genesis 3, SMS2, etc. The CD-ROM existed before the PCE launched and NEC wouldn't have been involved at all if it wasn't. They were just smart with how they introduced everything and how they gave people options. It worked as planned and the CD-ROM format quickly became more popular and was consolidated with the core units.

By the time the SFC launched, so did the PCE Duo. so there was no need to upgrade your PCE, you just bought a single Duo or a single SFC console and both played 99% of their libraries out of the box. Before the Duo, you couldn't play any SFC games at all, so there's no comparison to PCE core units. The Arcade Card + 1 ACD game = the price of many single SFC games. So the Arcade Card's price is irrelevant.

CD games were cheaper than SFC/SNES carts, which got more and more expensive as cart sizes grew. That's separate from all the on-cart additions. You really did have to pay for all those extra chips and add-ons, but SNES games were more expensive either way. You also couldn't play Satellaview games without paying for the Satellaview hardware and Gameboy games couldn't be played on TV unless you bought the additional Super Gameboy hardware. Even if sticking to regular SFC/SNES games, if you actually bought several games, it was cheaper in the long run buying PCE CD games.

Nintendo was always nuts with add-ons/upgrades to their software. They had a freaking robot add-on, modem banking, light guns, disk drive, Satellaview, Super Gameboy, multi-taps, mouse, 3D glasses, keyboard, Power Pad, etc. Really, it was Japan who loved having different options.

I'm not sure what the retail price of the PCE Duo was, but the SFC was less than $100 cheaper than what the TurboDuo launched at, which is about the difference in price of the domestic versions in Canada bitd. But games that I bought new back then, like FFIII, Chrono Trigger and Earthbound all cost up to double the prices of Turbo CD games. So it was definitely more expensive buying SNES hardware and games for me than it was buying Turbo hardware and games. That's not including the value of the 4 games that came packed with a TurboDuo, which was only a year younger than the SNES.

The Sega-CD and games was also cheaper than a SNES and games in the long run.


The bigger complaint some people have is that it's too complicated to figure out the "numerous" PCE game formats and hardware combinations. But it's really straightforward and anyone new enough to the Turbo/PCE that they need to ask, simply has only to follow the same advice that is always given: Just buy a Duo. When they ignore that advice and later want to upgrade? Simple, just buy a Duo and sell your core unit. All the other hardware variants are only for hardcore PCE fans, just as regular SNES players don't need to worry about the Super Comboy or Satellaview.

Quote from: RegalSin on 07/04/2012, 04:45 PMThe only thing the CD-rom did was made it easier for sound WAV data,

No, it also allowed HUGE games like a Drac X or a Sapphire etc., which would have cost AES bucks if released on a huey.

I have undergone many changes of opinion since I started console collecting.  I'd had a SNES for a long time, mainly for the big N titles like Super Metroid, F-Zero, Star Fox, and Super Mario World.  This was because I spent the vast majority of my early gaming career being a die-hard Nintendo fan.  Therefore, I had no desire to own a Genesis & didn't even know the Turbografx-16 existed.

Well, I got my Genesis & was content for awhile playing nothing but Sonic the Hedgehog on it.  Besides, I had just gotten my first (working) NES & still mostly played my Xbox 360 at the time.  However, the more I collected for the NES, the more I became open to getting more games for the Genesis, somehow.  

For the longest time, I thought the audio on the Genny was really week.  It was fitting for the era the console was released in, but the cheesy synths grated on my nerves at first.  I have come to appreciate them a lot more, however.  When you compare them to the SNES's audio, though, it does seem somewhat primitive.  The SNES's synths seem somewhat more realistic, almost MIDI, which would have been better-received back in the day, what with the popularity of computer gaming at that time.  The Genesis sounds, to me, like one of those cheap Casio (or...ya know...Yamaha) keyboard synthesizers from the 80's you sometimes find at yard sales for like $5.  Similar Yamaha sound chips were used in arcade games at the time, too, so its utilization in the Genesis is hardly surprising.

It's hard for me to pick a preference audio-wise, because I think each console's audio was strongly indicative of the time it was released.  The PCE/Turbo, however, is in a league of its own.  I don't think a similar chip (I'm likely mistaken) was used in other arcade/PC hardware at the time.  It obviously can't handle heavy sampling, as is present in many Genesis & SNES games, but it still manages to sound good.  It's like an NES sound chip with more channels and...well...more "umph," for lack of a better term.

As for graphics...it's hard to say.  The Genesis does seem to have a slightly more dull (almost earth-toned) color pallet, but there are many brightly-colored games for the system.  It's probably all subject to clever programming, as you guys have said.  

The SNES has bright colors and the addition of the "mode-7" which...I guess would have been pretty cool at the time.  It's certainly impressive on a 16-bit console.  However, it seems slightly gimmicky to me now.  With polygon graphics coming literally right around the corner in console gaming at the time, it seems the "mode-7" was almost immediately made obsolete.

Besides, who needs mode-7 when you have sprite scaling?  Obviously the Genesis can handle this better than the PCE, but it's wasted on turds like Super Thunder Blade (and After Burner II, to a lesser extent.)  Outrun turned out okay, though.  However, the PCE versions of these games (save maybe for Outrun) seem to look, play, and just be slightly better than their Genesis counterparts.  That's just my opinion, though.  

Anyway, the PCE had bright colors, obviously, and handled itself quite nicely for having an 8-bit CPU.  However (and correct me if I'm wrong) I do believe the PCE was incapable of processing real parallax scrolling, in contrast to the Genny & SNES.  I know many games made use of sprite-based simulated parallax, though, which is just fine by me (hell, the NES and SMS could do it too & it still looks pretty awesome.)  

Now, Polygons...the PCE is obviously out of the competition here, as there were no co-processor-assisted 3D games for the system, so this battle would have to be fought between the SNES and the Genesis.

The first 16-bit polygon game I've ever played was Star Fox (I'm sure many could say the same.)  I had already played SF64 prior to that, but for a 16-bit game, it holds up very well & manages to have its own unique atmosphere.  I've also played Vortex, but not for more than 5 minutes (despite owning a copy.)  Both games look decent, though obviously I prefer SF.  As for the games I haven't played, Stunt Race FX doesn't appeal to me at all, so I really couldn't give an opinion.  Doom, although impressive, seems choppy & I hear it doesn't handle well control-wise.  This is pretty disappointing & is a testament to the SNES's weak CPU.  I mean, even the fucking 8-bit Atari Lynx managed texture-mapped polygons in that AVP prototype, and without the help of a co-processor, so there's really no reason Doom on the SNES should have sucked.

Hell, Zero Tolerance on the Genny, despite having the biggest, ugliest HUD in FPS history, manages to look and handle better than SNES Doom, and again, completely without co-processing...at least, from what I've read.

Although I don't own a copy, I've done a lot of reading on Virtual Racing for the Genesis & I've got to say, the game looks really impressive.  The high polygon-count (colorful polygons, at that) seem to surpass even Star Fox, and the game even seems to move a bit faster (probably thanks to the Genesis's BLAST PROCESSING HURRRR)

I'm not going to talk about the 32X here, partly because I don't own one yet, but also because it essentially turns the Genesis into a 32-bit system, and it seems most of the discussion here is about 16-bit consoles (this is a PCE forum, after all  :D )  It's hard to pick a winner, though, when it comes to the chip-assisted 3D games; Virtua Racing looks better than most Super-FX games, but it's the ONLY game like it on the Genesis.  

Honestly guys, I'm simply too open-minded now to really consider one console better than the other, especially when it comes to cross-generation comparisons.  I mean, come one, of COURSE the PS1 is gonna be better than the SNES.  It was one of the top-selling game consoles of all time (and the best selling 16/32-bit console, I believe...either it or the N64) and it has a whole 16 additional bits on the SNES.

However, when it comes to shooters, the obvious best is the PCE.  It has great graphics for it & keeps it simple with its two-button configuration.  The worst, obviously, is the SNES.  Yes it has some good games, but they're few & even fewer can hold a candle to the PCE...which is seriously fucking sad.  I mean, the Game Gear's Z80 processor runs games like GG Aleste II (one of the best, if not THE best shooter on the system) fairly consistently & the SNES can't even run similar games without massive slowdown, without clever programming.  Jesus, doesn't the SNES's CPU have the same clocking speed as the GG/SMS (Colecovision!?)?  Come on, Nintenderp.

Don't get me wrong, I love the SNES.  I love Gradius III and Super R-Type.  However, I'd still rather be playing Lightening Force or Soldier Blade.


Anyway, sorry for the long post.  This type of topic is one of the things that's kept me interested in console collecting; I like each of my consoles for a different reason & it's especially interesting to note each one's advantages/inadequacies over the other.  I'm probably echoing a lot of things that have already been said here, too, so...sorry guys.  :-#

Quote from: VenomMacbeth on 07/18/2012, 01:03 AMIt [PCE] obviously can't handle heavy sampling....

Champions Forever Boxing wants to have a chat with you.

Quote from: guest on 07/18/2012, 11:50 AM

Quote from: VenomMacbeth on 07/18/2012, 01:03 AMIt [PCE] obviously can't handle heavy sampling....

Champions Forever Boxing wants to have a chat with you.

Whoops!  Well, my point was that the use of sampling is more prevalent in the SNES and Genesis than it is in the PCE...though I could be (and probably am) mistaken.

Very nice read VM, i quite enjoyed your take on the 16-bit wars.  :)

Quote from: VenomMacbeth on 07/18/2012, 01:03 AMHell, Zero Tolerance on the Genny, despite having the biggest, ugliest HUD in FPS history, manages to look and handle better than SNES Doom, and again, completely without co-processing...at least, from what I've read.

Hell yes!  I always wondered why more people don't mention Zero Tolerance more often as far as how impressive the game was.  I always really enjoyed it.  Doom and Wolfenstien were great, but there was like a dozen versions of those games on every console at the time.  ZT was a completely original game made exclusively for Gens.

Quote from: VenomMacbeth on 07/18/2012, 01:03 AMAlthough I don't own a copy, I've done a lot of reading on Virtual Racing for the Genesis & I've got to say, the game looks really impressive.  The high polygon-count (colorful polygons, at that) seem to surpass even Star Fox, and the game even seems to move a bit faster (probably thanks to the Genesis's BLAST PROCESSING HURRRR)

I will say VR for Genesis may have displayed faster, but I always thought by comparison, that StarFox was a far superior presentation.

Here is my take on each console war I care to comment on-

8-bit wars- The winner: NES, My favorite: NES
16-bit wars- The winner: SNES, My favorite: Turbob
32/64-bit wars- The winner: PS1, My favorite: Saturn
128-bit wars- The winner:PS2, My favorite: Dreamcast
Current Gen Wars: The..... does anyone really care at this point?

Star Fox never looked like 3D to me. It was a cool gimmick to have some polygonal objects on a 2D background, but many Genesis games already do that in more of an immersive 3D way and without extra hardware. VR Racing is so much more impressive to me as it has a real 3D environnent and models that actually look like things, instead of 3D gibberish.

Quote from: VenomMacbeth on 07/18/2012, 01:36 PM

Quote from: NecroPhile on 07/18/2012, 11:50 AM

Quote from: VenomMacbeth on 07/18/2012, 01:03 AMIt [PCE] obviously can't handle heavy sampling....

Champions Forever Boxing wants to have a chat with you.

Whoops!  Well, my point was that the use of sampling is more prevalent in the SNES and Genesis than it is in the PCE...though I could be (and probably am) mistaken.

Sampling is definitely most prevailent in SNES games because it is all that the SNES can do. The PCE actually has pretty impressive sample running ability and can run clear samples through wll of its channels at once. But thats a waste of memory and PCE and Genesis games dont waste space on samples when they dont need to.

(https://megadrive-emulator.com/games/images/virtua_racing.png)
time boner!

Quote from: Opethian on 07/18/2012, 03:12 PM(https://megadrive-emulator.com/games/images/virtua_racing.png)
time boner!

The choice is pretty simple:
SNES Star Fox
starfox.webp
Vs.
Genesis Virtua Racing
VirtuaRacing-Genesis.webp

:lol: :wink:

The only thing preventing PCE CD-Rom games from being prime, was the fact the technology was new, and people were thinking records. They left prints, marks, and all kinds of scratches. We all remember handling giscs. It was stupid..

The carts did their job for a generation of people who still used 8-tracks. People who probably left their games out in a pile, in the sun. The Hu-cards could have also did the same, job but by then, everybody decided to abandon the storage medium, in exchange for CD.

On a PCE all you really need is one Hu-card, and in todays money on an national market circuit, the costs would not be a problem. The problem with cost is popularity, the material is not the problem, just the popularity.

It is like with CDs today. They are still being sold but now, they are becoming expensiver.

You guys cant compare games like star fox or VR since all these games used extra 3D chips added to
the cart. Without these, those games would NEVER had looked as they did.
The pce never got any extra power added, simply because it was awesome enuff.

Quote from: VenomMacbeth on 07/18/2012, 01:03 AMBesides, who needs mode-7 when you have sprite scaling?  Obviously the Genesis can handle this better than the PCE, but it's wasted on turds like Super Thunder Blade (and After Burner II, to a lesser extent.)  Outrun turned out okay, though.  However, the PCE versions of these games (save maybe for Outrun) seem to look, play, and just be slightly better than their Genesis counterparts.  That's just my opinion, though.

1. only problem here (and again beside the snes's mode-7), no other 8-/16bit console could handle sprite scaling (beside the Neo Geo).

2. I even think the MDs outrun was inferior to the PCE outrun, mainly because its low frame rate. the speed feeling just won't come up as it does on the PCE and that what makes outrun special. also the cars and side objects as well the backgrounds are much more arcade faithful in the PCE port, even the MD has few extra stuff like the beach in the first level, which was completely missing in the PCE port, as well the street branching was done in a better way.
Both version have their flaws, but the MD one just seems to have more and the more serious one, in terms of gameplay and gamefun.

Now after burner II IMO is a completely different rabbit hole. While the MD port was a really dull and sloppy port (game play and play fun wise), the pce one managed to bring over a real fast paced game play with lots of smoothly fake-scaled objects (f.e. the rocket trails which even changed the colors, scaling of the mid-air fuel plane and navy vessel etc.), which therefore brought us a game much closer to something like we had in the arcades.

Quote from: JoshTurboTrollX-16 on 07/18/2012, 04:15 PM

Quote from: Opethian on 07/18/2012, 03:12 PM(https://megadrive-emulator.com/games/images/virtua_racing.png)
time boner!

The choice is pretty simple:
SNES Star Fox
starfox.webp
Vs.
Genesis Virtua Racing
VirtuaRacing-Genesis.webp

:lol: :wink:

Hey now, I said Virtua Racing, not Hard Driving.  That game is a fucking abomination & should never, EVER even be mentioned.  Ever.

And it may sound like "Time Boner," but at least it's real voice synthesis, unlike Star Fox's "BUDAHBUDUHBLAHBUDUH" :lol:

 

Quote from: Tatsujin on 07/18/2012, 08:33 PM1. only problem here (and again beside the snes's mode-7), no other 8-/16bit console could handle sprite scaling (beside the Neo Geo).

2. I even think the MDs outrun was inferior to the PCE outrun, mainly because its low frame rate. the speed feeling just won't come up as it does on the PCE and that what makes outrun special. also the cars and side objects as well the backgrounds are much more arcade faithful in the PCE port, even the MD has few extra stuff like the beach in the first level, which was completely missing in the PCE port, as well the street branching was done in a better way.
Both version have their flaws, but the MD one just seems to have more and the more serious one, in terms of gameplay and gamefun.

Now after burner II IMO is a completely different rabbit hole. While the MD port was a really dull and sloppy port (game play and play fun wise), the pce one managed to bring over a real fast paced game play with lots of smoothly fake-scaled objects (f.e. the rocket trails which even changed the colors, scaling of the mid-air fuel plane and navy vessel etc.), which therefore brought us a game much closer to something like we had in the arcades.

1. You're right, but some consoles simulate it better than others.  *Insert super-scaler arcade port comparison here*

2. That's exactly what I thought about Outrun.  And After Burner.  Is it ironic that NEC Avenue obviously cared more about their ports of these games than Sega did about their's? (Yes, I know Sega didn't port those games on the Genesis.)

Man you people really need to stop fighting the truth.
SNES sucks.
Just accept it and enjoy your life again.

Quote from: SuperDeadite on 07/18/2012, 11:27 PMMan you people really need to stop fighting the truth.
SNES sucks.
Just accept it and enjoy your life again.

It's not my fav, but I wouldn't go so far to say that it sucks.  The Atari Jaguar sucks.  I can enjoy playing the SNES plenty, but I wouldn't even get close enough to a Jaguar to take a shit on it.  If the horrible graphics or the monstrosity of a controller don't kill the games, the awful Commodore-64-grade synths do.  64 bits my ass.

Quote from: VenomMacbeth on 07/18/2012, 11:35 PMthe awful Commodore-64-grade synths do.  64 bits my ass. 

That's a big insult to the SID, which was and still is one of the greatest synth ever used for gaming purposes :D

Quote from: Tatsujin on 07/18/2012, 11:46 PM

Quote from: VenomMacbeth on 07/18/2012, 11:35 PMthe awful Commodore-64-grade synths do.  64 bits my ass. 

That's a big insult to the SID, which was and still is one of the greatest synth ever used for gaming purposes :D

Well it's just great...on a Commodore-64.  A 64-bit game console deserves a better synth.  Pretty much every other 32/64-bit console, INCLUDING the 32x, has more tolerable synths.  If you guys like it, awesome, but I think it's piss.

Quote from: VenomMacbeth on 07/18/2012, 11:50 PMIf you guys like it, awesome, but I think it's piss.

lol, don't get me wrong. if the jag really had an additional SID inside and properly used as well, I think it would have been a real cool add.
But I think the problem was lesser the synth itself, and more of how poorly it was used (like most of the atari & co stuff).

Every game system made outside of Japan, and after the concept of PCE/NES suck, not including the Amiga. Their was absolutely no development support period for non-Japanese systems. Atari had some but their computers was used for sound mostly, and the apple was just a retard version of the DOS/Intel/Windows

I like starfox, it was a good game, and cutting edge for consoles at the time. As much as i like the snes and have defended its audio, i actually agree the sound in starfox was muddy. Don't know why, its just came across that way.
VR racing is an excellent game. Excellent clear audio, real sensation of speed.
Comparing the two of them is kinda silly though. I agree with blacktiger that VR had a more 3d feel to it, but they are so completely different games i don't feel they can be compared.
Deadite is just trolling to stir that shit, then again, this is fighting street so have at it :)
The jaguar does suck. Compare checkered flag on the jaguar to VR on the genesis. The 64 bit system gets crushed painfully!!!
Hating on the sid is blasphemy punishable by a 1000 lashes from wet spaghetti.
Regal, your losing your touch. You keep making valid reasonable points. I'm losing my faith in you  :mrgreen:

Not trolling, the SNES just sucks.  Any system with less then 10 game worth playing sucks.  This can not be debated.

Nobody can hate the SNES. The SNES was my fav before the PCE, and Saturn. I eventually wanted to settle down with something that is all 2d power, and keeps on kicking.

Also the the SNES best feature was the sound, which was very unique and differnt, compared to the 1980's bliss of the MD. The PSX tried to do what the SNES did, but failed, and made a sound type, that had iffi quality.

The PCE has its' own kind of sound as well, but so did the NES, and previous mentioned.

............................................................................

THe only reason the SNES sucks, is because it had to end, and Nintendo called the shots, plus it was really just an Amiga, with the Nintendo logo on it.

In fact Nintendo basically made a game system that was supportive towards westerners and not an Amiga or Atari. The next time it was the N64 and it's silicon graphics power house. Even the GCN, had the power of the PPC, inside, along with IBM force.

................................................

The Dreamcast was just another NEC Windows PC,

Saturn was an ASMbblers dream but a C persons Nightmare

The Genesis was too big.

The SNES graphics was all compacted.
.................................................................

In fact I like the titles that was on the SNES compared to the Japanese release. I mean okay, some things are better from Japan, but the west had it's powers. That is
what people had to deal with, because everybody was
so afraid of competition.

Quote from: SuperDeadite on 07/20/2012, 03:46 AMNot trolling, the SNES just sucks.  Any system with less then 10 game worth playing sucks.  This can not be debated.

No one takes you seriously. How can they, everyone knows your game buying habits, and you're attitude of self importance when concerning your obsession with all things obscure or un-mainstream in the Japanese gaming market (the fact that you'd have a Virtua Boy and hate the Snes speaks volumes). The wispy nerdy pompous know it all voice on your youtube vids is nuthin but lulz (esp all the lip smacking sounds you make sometimes). The suspected self hate going on too, going out of your way to try to be Japanese yourself (like a character right out of The Man in the High Castle), and the fact that you use a anime girl avatar and maintain a girlish like manicure, how could anyone be expected to really?

This is you: /foreveralone.png

Surrounded by millions of Japanese, but alas, for obvious reasons, forever alone...you really have nuthin to smile about, so you shouldn't bother.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 07/21/2012, 05:01 PM/foreveralone.png

(http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t329/JollyWaffle/kermit.jpg)

professor, their are two truths. either dead head is trolling for comments, or he is painfully stupid. i dont think he is stupid. i think he just like the controversy. its ok. its fighting street. any true gamer knows that quality games exist on all systems. one has to assume that deadites attempt to stir the shit is a plee for attention and nothing more.  after all he has no facts, just shit flying out of his mouth. it does not bother me at all. its his loss, even if he does not realize it.

Quote from: SuperDeadite on 07/20/2012, 03:46 AMNot trolling, the SNES just sucks.  Any system with less then 10 game worth playing sucks.  This can not be debated.

Yes it can. :)

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 07/21/2012, 05:01 PM

Quote from: SuperDeadite on 07/20/2012, 03:46 AMNot trolling, the SNES just sucks.  Any system with less then 10 game worth playing sucks.  This can not be debated.

No one takes you seriously. How can they, everyone knows your game buying habits, and you're attitude of self importance when concerning your obsession with all things obscure or un-mainstream in the Japanese gaming market (the fact that you'd have a Virtua Boy and hate the Snes speaks volumes). The wispy nerdy pompous know it all voice on your youtube vids is nuthin but lulz (esp all the lip smacking sounds you make sometimes). The suspected self hate going on too, going out of your way to try to be Japanese yourself (like a character right out of The Man in the High Castle), and the fact that you use a anime girl avatar and maintain a girlish like manicure, how could anyone be expected to really?

This is you:
Surrounded by millions of Japanese, but alas, for obvious reasons, forever alone...you really have nuthin to smile about, so you shouldn't bother.

You are the creepiest dude on this site hands down

 truth does not equal creepy. you can disagree with professor, but you can not hide from your fanboyism, gua haahhaahhahahaahha

SNES DEFENSE PLAN:
1.  Dig through photobucket.
2.  Google user name.
3.  Spend hours reading youtube comments.
4.  Fantasize about offender until you can understand his inner psyche.
5.  Furiously masturbate to his sexy face pic.
6.  Achieve "Creepy stalker" status.
SUCCESS, THE SNES HAS BEEN DEFENDED.
WORLD PEACE RESTORED!

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/21/2012, 10:52 PMtruth does not equal creepy. you can disagree with professor, but you can not hide from your fanboyism, gua haahhaahhahahaahha

You're pretty creepy as well....

your point is? i love all consoles, i love computer games. i love my pce. i understand that good games come from all. if that makes me creepy so be it. what does that make you? if you dont have a qualifed answer for that, maybe you should stfu and hide for awhile. just a thought.

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/21/2012, 11:08 PMyour point is? i love all consoles, i love computer games. i love my pce. i understand that good games come from all. if that makes me creepy so be it. what does that make you? if you dont have a qualifed answer for that, maybe you should stfu and hide for awhile. just a thought.

No need to go all regalsin on me

Quote from: Forever Alone on 07/21/2012, 10:59 PMSNES DEFENSE PLAN:
1.  Dig through photobucket.
2.  Google user name.
3.  Spend hours reading youtube comments.
4.  Fantasize about offender until you can understand his inner psyche.
5.  Furiously masturbate to his sexy face pic.
6.  Achieve "Creepy stalker" status.
SUCCESS, THE SNES HAS BEEN DEFENDED.
WORLD PEACE RESTORED!

You make it all sound sooo....complicated. It was a lot less effort and time consumption then that. Why would anyone read your youtube comments anyway lol? I saw like two of your videos and had enough of you after hearing you talk on both. That, and well, your creepy fingernails/women's claws, they are fucking gross. And Venoms post is lol, you look oddly like Kermit. Like I said, no one takes you seriously, for the above mentioned reasons. Sad but true... Anyway, dont you have a yellow skin dye session taking place in your bathtub you have to attend to? You know, to help further your assimilation into your adopted culture, the one where you eventually marry your anime pillow and buy a anime real doll so it wont quite feel like you're forever alone?

Punknic, if you feel as though i make no sense at all, then tell me why i'm wrong. its ok if you dont like the snes. there are many systems i dont like, but i understand they still have good games. regalsin may not always be on the cutting edge, but atleast by his comments he understand the quality of a system. punknic, dead head. are you defending your belief, or just suffering from constipation of the bran and diarrhea of the mouth?  its ok if you have no fucking clue what your talking about. this is fighting street. just admit your clueless and all will be forgiven. otherwise, keep talking and bury yourself is bullshit. no one will ever forget your cluelessness, i promise :)

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/21/2012, 11:20 PMPunknic, if you feel as though i make no sense at all, then tell me why i'm wrong. its ok if you dont like the snes. there are many systems i dont like, but i understand they still have good games. regalsin may not always be on the cutting edge, but atleast by his comments he understand the quality of a system. punknic, dead head. are you defending your belief, or just suffering from constipation of the bran and diarrhea of the mouth?  its ok if you have no fucking clue what your talking about. this is fighting street. just admit your clueless and all will be forgiven. otherwise, keep talking and bury yourself is bullshit. no one will ever forget your cluelessness, i promise :)

I don't think I ever said I didn't like the snes

other than you saying its the only system you want to pee on. its ok. if you can't be held to your words, i dont blame you. some people talk out of the side of thier face without thinking about what they are saying. if you don't like the snes. that is your business. if you can't atleast respect if for its contribution to the 16bit era, then you are a loser, or or a fanboy. the pce was amazing, and still is. the snes has great games, and still does. the genesis as well. anyone else  is stirring up the shit for attention. don't agree with me? you dont have to. its fighting street :)

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/21/2012, 11:38 PMother than you saying its the only system you want to pee on.

My SNES looks like someone peed on it.

mathius, so does mine. and i'm planning on using arkhans suggestion to clean it up with peroxide. that has nothing to do with its capabilites as a system, no matter how much you want to be funny. not that i appreciate the attempt.

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/21/2012, 11:49 PMmathius, so does mine. and i'm planning on using arkhans suggestion to clean it up with peroxide. that has nothing to do with its capabilites as a system, no matter how much you want to be funny. not that i appreciate the attempt.

I agree. The SNES is my fave console. :)

Remember...

Quote from: Mathius on 07/21/2012, 10:17 PM

Quote from: SuperDeadite on 07/20/2012, 03:46 AMNot trolling, the SNES just sucks.  Any system with less then 10 game worth playing sucks.  This can not be debated.

Yes it can. :)

...I disagreed with Deadite here saying that debate is valid concerning the SNES's awesomeness.

The pce is my favorite console. the snes is my second favorite.  it does not matter either way as all are good. quality games come from all sources. i for one will take advantage of all good games not matter what system they are on. do i sound like a kiss ass?, maybe so, but atleast i'm playing good games. currently i'm playing earthbound for  nes on my gameaxe. can any of you say your so well rounded. mathius. i'm not taking a shot at you. i'm aware your a strong member of this commmunity. your opinion is appreciated.

how can not be the pce ones most favorite console in this forum? :)

i sure like the sfc, since i loved the 16-bit era to no end.
the sfc was a big part of my life, but in my honest opinion, not many of the better games back then aged very well. so only the very good ones like axelay, contra spirits, macross scramble valkyre, valken, SMW, SMK etc. keeping me busy playing the system from time to time.

I am currently playing through Castlevania IV in an attempt to finally beat the sucker. The music really stands out each time I turn the system on. Konami really made the SNES sing with that game. There is a bass that drives a lot of the tracks in SCIV that inflicts an emotion within me. That is art in its purist form.

...I have said before that I love most all consoles. I can even find redeeming qualities in the Jag and 3DO (especially the 3DO!). If I had one complaint to lay on the core 16-Bit consoles it would be the Mega Drive's soundchip. Don't get me wrong-companies like Sunsoft and Technosoft made the MD rock out with some gorgeous tunes like in Batman and Thunder Force III. It's just the MD's low quality FM synth chip really hindered the potential atmosphere in some games.

 I guess I could call out the MD's composite video output too but that is easily fixed via a S-Video mod.

not only do all consoles kick ass, but we are lucky enough to have people like Thesteve, and Bluebmw to make them better. any idiot that refuses to play one, is just limiting himself, or herself, quality wise. currently my favorite machines are: my pc-engine gt modified by Thesteve, as well as my Gameaxe modified by Thesteve. am i kissing ass. hell yea, and you would be so lucky to do the same i don't care if a system is collectible, i just want to play games on it. any asshat that says they only like one system is doing so to piss you off, or has never played  the other machines. As for Thesteve, currently, he is my pimp to better gaming. if i sound like a kiss ass, so what? he repairs my machines and upgrades them to make the gaming better. don't like it, oh well, if you do like it, sign on and upgrade to better gaming.                         

Quote from: Tatsujin on 07/22/2012, 12:10 AMhow can not be the pce ones most favorite console in this forum? :)

i sure like the sfc, since i loved the 16-bit era to no end.
the sfc was a big part of my life, but in my honest opinion, not many of the better games back then aged very well. so only the very good ones like axelay, contra spirits, macross scramble valkyre, valken, SMW, SMK etc. keeping me busy playing the system from time to time.

If I had opted for a TurboGrafx instead of a Genesis that very well might have been the case with me, Tats. When I was younger I went through a SEGA fanboy phase where I cried the praises of that awesome arcade manufacturer. As much as I hated it the Master System and Genesis just couldn't cut it in some areas (sound, no hardware rotation or scaling) against the competing platforms. "Where was that awesome scaling seen in Thunder Blade?" I thought. Then the SEGA CD was announced and I thought this was my answer! Nope. Not there either.

I should have went with a Turbo Duo. Along with it and the Super Nintendo I could have had the ultimate gaming setup. Two systems I could have equally loved instead of one system causing imbalance. Once again, I still love the Genesis. I always will. It will always be part of my past and I do have a lot of great memories associated with it.

Mathius, nothing wrong with loving the genny. its got some really good games. people who understand that good games come from all systems are good to go in my book.

Quote from: HercTNT on 07/22/2012, 12:30 AMMathius, nothing wrong with loving the genny. its got some really good games. people who understand that good games come from all systems are good to go in my book.

Definitely not. :)

The Genesis/SEGA CD model 1 set-up is truly a magnificent looking console. The model 2 set-up not so much.

But it is all about the games. Thunder Force III, Lunar, Castlevania: Bloodlines- all of these are great all-around games that are only on the Genesis. Except for Thunder Spirits on the SNES. That game pales in comparison to the Genny version. And it's based off the arcade game Thunder Force AC, so Thunder Force III is still a MD exclusive. Unless there is a port out there that I am not aware of.

lol, I like the MD as well, in fact when it comes to the availability of good games, it even beats the SFC.

the MD and the SFC are the most far away placed 16-bit systems, were the pce was just settled very between.

its like the worst colors vs. the best colors, the worst action vs. the best action, almost zero RPGs, vs. almost only RPGs, etc.

the triangle of the 16bit era is formed by the pce, md and sfc. every system completely different and praised with different exclusive stuff. that's what made the 16-bit era so good. and soon or later you had to have 'em all anyway, so do you today.

Quote from: Tatsujin on 07/22/2012, 12:43 AMlol, I like the MD as well, in fact when it comes to the availability of good games, it even beats the SFC.

the MD and the SFC are the most far away 16-bit systems, were the pce was just settled ver between.

its like the worst colors vs. the best colors, the worst action vs. the best action, almost zero RPGs, vs. almost only RPGs, etc.

the triangle of the 16bit era is formed by the pce, md and sfc. every system completely different and praised with different exclusive stuff. that's what made the 16-bit era so good. and soon or later you had to have 'em all anyway, so do you today.

Quoted for truth. Great post! :)

I own a Duo-r
a Jvc-xeye
a gameaxe
a pc-engine-gt
a snes
a nintendo
a super nintendo
a game gear
a playstation
a gamecube
a xbox
a turbografx-16
quality games can be found on all of them. my favorites are my Pc-engine gt (thesteve modified) my gameaxe (thesteve modifided), my game gear ( modifided by me) and my snes, my nes, my genny, and my duo.
i have finished many games on these system in the previous months.
I'm lucky to have a friend that has helped me get these system.
I'm lucky to have a wife that has also helped.
I"m very lucky to have found the steve that has fixed them to work beyond my wildest dreams.
I'm better than anyone that thinks that the best gaming comes form one system. I'm lucky to have the turbo. prove me wrong :)

To be honest I haven't read this entire thread. Still haven't. I skim through a couple of posts due to excess fanboyism, but I got to say my peace.

I had a SMS, NES, Genesis/SEGA CD, and Super NES growing up. So that means I had access to most of what was available when it was current. Those who claim that the SNES was only an acceptable form of entertainment for that time period until you got a hold of something better, and would never have a reason to return to it for any reason later in life, is just blind to the reality of other people's opinions and tastes. I own the majority of retro consoles now, and I still return to my nice selection of 40-50 excellent SNES games on a regular basis. I would own more if I had the room lol

Those of you with differing opinions are more than welcome to call me insane. That is your option. But, please don't shove your "facts" in my face. Not that you have done that to me personally yet. I see it happening to other people though and I feel the need to defend them. Yes I know this is Fighting Street, but there are some real passions springing up.

It really all amounts to fanboyism, as no self-respecting gamer would deny that there is at least some appeal to any given console.  I rag on the Jag (TEEHEE!) but if I saw one for cheap, I'd probably get one for the novelty of it.  Hell, I wouldn't mind playing AVP or Wolfenstein 3D, or perhaps even Raiden on it.  I'm currently investigating good games for the Commodore-64, as my uncle just dug his out of the attic & it apparently still works.  (ironically, though, he isn't much of a gamer at all.  He got it back in the day for programming.).

Anyway, I digress.  There are consoles that are better than others, but there are reasons to own each of them.

My personal favorite console is Sega Genesis. Playing Street Fighter II: Special Championship Edition or Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers with the Sega 6 Button Arcade Stick is heaven.

NEvermind.................Genesis cram out 80's goodness. It is soo lucky to have Splatterhouse, and games like Ecco.

The original PlayStation is my favourite console (yeah yeah) but right now I only own a Master System and a Core Grafx II.

The Master System is never used. ;)

I picked up a sega cdx and have a new found love for sega cd. I had a model 1 when it was released, but I must have bought ALL the wrong games for it back then because I hardly touched it when I was a kid.

And am I the only person that still plays an OG green/gray screen Game Boy? Love the simplicity of that little bastard.

Quote from: galam on 09/02/2012, 06:57 PMI picked up a sega cdx and have a new found love for sega cd. I had a model 1 when it was released, but I must have bought ALL the wrong games for it back then because I hardly touched it when I was a kid.

And am I the only person that still plays an OG green/gray screen Game Boy? Love the simplicity of that little bastard.

i own 4 gameboy's and could easily own 100 more. i love em, you got another fan right here. I was late to the sega cd party. had a friend that owned one and he had all the wrongs games as it were as well. Because of it, i did not like it. i was dead wrong. segacd has some great games, it took me to long to realize that.

Original game boy rocks, but I need back lite, and loud sound.

CDX is the most breakable of the Genesis models, It makes me think of a PCE....................that was released five years later. The idea of the size and display looks cool, but they could have at least pushed a mini display into the darn thing. The PSX and Saturn was released before the CDX.

.............


SEGA CD only had Sonic CD, after that I was like back to Mario...

Sega would have dominated the market if they had imported more, and
just ran commercials, but even the SEGA CD boxing FMV game is no where near it's Genesis or NES counter part.

I forgot about SEGA CD focusing on finishing Mario World, remember how cool that was..ohhhh it's wizinghimer, the Magikoopa AKA Kamek. Our minds was so raped. Meanwhile in Japan. they banned condoms, while we were given free condoms in the fifth grade. Then here comes the TNMNTs, la la lar la la lar la la la lala la la power. 70% of America's obesity should be blamed on TNMNT eating Pizza in almost episode, film, and even had a song about it. One whole segment was just nothing but, people eating pizza outside, in an unrealistic peaceful Manhattan.

I do have a preference for Sega Genesis over the SNES but that's because i had a Genesis back then and all my friends had SNES. Loved to exchange system for a weekend and play more games.

Love my TG16 too. Had one back in the days along my Genesis and played both.

And i'm probably one of the few that love the Game Gear. Own over 100 games for it and beside the low quality screen games are good and i can play all my master game on it !

*bump*  I also hate when people argue about hardware like this.  Not just that but I constantly get people arguing with me over which console has the better game library.  I say the snes has the best library ever, certainly better than what you can get for the genesis or even the pce cd.  And the nes has the second best library.  But people start flame wars about me acting like I'm a retard because they think the genesis has a better library of games.  Sure, if you're into crappy games and hate rpgs / action games then I guess you would consider the genesis to have a better game library.

I like arguing about software libraries, but people rarely agree on whether they're comparing the quantity of good games released or the hit-to-crap ratio. For example, the NES has an awesome selection of great games, but there's so much shit that the overall ratio is bad. People argue both ways and it's like ships passing in the night.

Unless a systems software library sucked so much it was not worth even playing, arguing over it at all does not make sense to me. It does not matter to me how many crap games were made for a system in comparison to good games as long as there are good games and plenty of them. If you make 10,000 games for a system and only 1000 of them are really good, does the system automatically suck? Quality of games is often subjective to based on peoples opinions of what makes a good game. I know people that don't like the sega because they hate sports games. I know people who don't like the snes cause they don't care for platformers and rpg's. Who's right?
So, I say, its hard to argue at all, cause all the systems had great games. Other than the virtual boy and jaguar, how many machines honestly did not have atleast a decent selection of games to play?

Quote from: HercTNT on 10/06/2012, 12:06 AMUnless a systems software library sucked so much it was not worth even playing, arguing over it at all does not make sense to me. It does not matter to me how many crap games were made for a system in comparison to good games as long as there are good games and plenty of them. If you make 10,000 games for a system and only 1000 of them are really good, does the system automatically suck? Quality of games is often subjective to based on peoples opinions of what makes a good game. I know people that don't like the sega because they hate sports games. I know people who don't like the snes cause they don't care for platformers and rpg's. Who's right?
So, I say, its hard to argue at all, cause all the systems had great games. Other than the virtual boy and jaguar, how many machines honestly did not have atleast a decent selection of games to play?

This is exactly why I love the 3DO. Most of the library was either ill-conceived or has aged badly, but games like Star Control 2, the best version of Need for Speed 1, Crash 'n Burn, and the Wing Commander games elevate it to a respectable game console.

It just bothers me when I post that I think the snes has a better library than the genesis and some retard who's against rpgs and platformers responds with "wtf are you smoking?".  There's a huge amount of people out there who agree with me, and one opinionated idiot who's not even willing to try to see things from another perspective really makes me feel like posting elsewhere.  I'm not saying this happened here, but it happened on other forums which I decided to stop posting on because people were so stupid.

Also on the sega16 forums I see people constantly saying that the audio from the genesis is superior to the snes.  Uhm, maybe the genesis audio is less muffled but the snes has more powerful audio hardware, so that's just totally a preference thing.  Personally I'll take the snes audio over the genesis just because I like music having muffled quality samples instead of fm noises.

My point is its silly for people to even argue about stuff like that. Fanboyism is a powerful thing though. There are still people who won't play sega/nintendo because of there total utter blind devotion to just one system. To me, those are not real gamers. Real gamers know that good games can be found everywhere. You can argue system specs as well till your blue in the face and the quality of graphics and sound often depends on the talent of the programmers.  There are some truths but a few will always debate them.

The Genesis does have a faster cpu mhz wise than the Super nes. Most techs seem to agree though that the Genny cpu is more general purpose than the Snes cpu.

The Snes can use more colors, display more colors, and has transparency. This does not stop some Snes games though from looking like ass.

The Genesis does have deep rich bass and more chippy sound. The Snes though can produce more orchestrated music.

The Turbo can trump them both in size of sprites and numbers on screen, yet is often left out of 16-bit discussions by the unwashed masses.

Its a cycle that will never end. Even now there are those who will never play an xbox because they are loyal to ps3 and vice versa. Forums are raging as we speak on which system is more powerful.

it's obvious which console is the best ever. why do we need 11 pages of discussions for? lol

It doesn't matter if one hardware is definitely weaker across the board or if it has games that aren't as good by any random means of judgement. If a console has exclusive worthwhile games then it is worth playing them. Even if a group of people are certain that a particular library is better overall, it still completely fails at having the exclusives from any other particular library.

Why does everyone thing the 3DO has the best version of Need for Speed?  Yeah, the graphics are a bit more rich but they're MUCH slower and there's far less to do in the game.

Not me.  I play my snes, megadrive, famicom, and pc engine cd all equally as much.  I love all these systems the same but I agree that certain consoles have more purely amazing games in their libraries than others.  People don't even compare the pc engine cd because...uhh...it wasn't huge here?  A lot of great games were japan only releases?

I find a lot of people are crazed with "what they grew up with" and I hate that.  I grew up with a model 1 snes and a toaster nes which I sold because the zif system died and I was 12 and I had a snes anyway.  Now I'm using a snes mini, av famicom, japanese megadrive with a 32x, and a pc engine with the model 1 cd unit (soon I'll also be using a turboduo if all goes well).  I'm also using the japanese controllers on the snes and dog bone nes controllers so I'm certainly not using what I grew up with.

Quote from: HercTNT on 10/06/2012, 10:48 AMMy point is its silly for people to even argue about stuff like that. Fanboyism is a powerful thing though. There are still people who won't play sega/nintendo because of there total utter blind devotion to just one system. To me, those are not real gamers. Real gamers know that good games can be found everywhere. You can argue system specs as well till your blue in the face and the quality of graphics and sound often depends on the talent of the programmers.  There are some truths but a few will always debate them.

The Genesis does have a faster cpu mhz wise than the Super nes. Most techs seem to agree though that the Genny cpu is more general purpose than the Snes cpu.

The Snes can use more colors, display more colors, and has transparency. This does not stop some Snes games though from looking like ass.

The Genesis does have deep rich bass and more chippy sound. The Snes though can produce more orchestrated music.

The Turbo can trump them both in size of sprites and numbers on screen, yet is often left out of 16-bit discussions by the unwashed masses.

Its a cycle that will never end. Even now there are those who will never play an xbox because they are loyal to ps3 and vice versa. Forums are raging as we speak on which system is more powerful.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/06/2012, 05:18 PMWhy does everyone thing the 3DO has the best version of Need for Speed?  Yeah, the graphics are a bit more rich but they're MUCH slower and there's far less to do in the game.

The rich graphics are exactly what does it for me. I just enjoy driving through the Alpine and Coastal routes and enjoying the scenery. I don't really play the game to race, and I treat the experience similar to the way I treat a game of Outrun. Now if only the tunes were as good as Outrun's. :)

Quote from: Drakon on 10/06/2012, 06:39 PMNot me.  I play my snes, megadrive, famicom, and pc engine cd all equally as much.  I love all these systems the same but I agree that certain consoles have more purely amazing games in their libraries than others.  People don't even compare the pc engine cd because...uhh...it wasn't huge here?  A lot of great games were japan only releases?

I find a lot of people are crazed with "what they grew up with" and I hate that.  I grew up with a model 1 snes and a toaster nes which I sold because the zif system died and I was 12 and I had a snes anyway.  Now I'm using a snes mini, av famicom, japanese megadrive with a 32x, and a pc engine with the model 1 cd unit (soon I'll also be using a turboduo if all goes well).  I'm also using the japanese controllers on the snes and dog bone nes controllers so I'm certainly not using what I grew up with.

Quote from: HercTNT on 10/06/2012, 10:48 AMMy point is its silly for people to even argue about stuff like that. Fanboyism is a powerful thing though. There are still people who won't play sega/nintendo because of there total utter blind devotion to just one system. To me, those are not real gamers. Real gamers know that good games can be found everywhere. You can argue system specs as well till your blue in the face and the quality of graphics and sound often depends on the talent of the programmers.  There are some truths but a few will always debate them.

The Genesis does have a faster cpu mhz wise than the Super nes. Most techs seem to agree though that the Genny cpu is more general purpose than the Snes cpu.

The Snes can use more colors, display more colors, and has transparency. This does not stop some Snes games though from looking like ass.

The Genesis does have deep rich bass and more chippy sound. The Snes though can produce more orchestrated music.

The Turbo can trump them both in size of sprites and numbers on screen, yet is often left out of 16-bit discussions by the unwashed masses.

Its a cycle that will never end. Even now there are those who will never play an xbox because they are loyal to ps3 and vice versa. Forums are raging as we speak on which system is more powerful.

The comment was for everyone in general not just for you.

Sorry was venting a bit.  Anyway I completely agree that good programming can make any hardware platform shine.

Quote from: HercTNT on 10/06/2012, 09:03 PMThe comment was for everyone in general not just for you.

Quote from: Drakon on 10/07/2012, 01:40 AMSorry was venting a bit.  Anyway I completely agree that good programming can make any hardware platform shine.

Quote from: HercTNT on 10/06/2012, 09:03 PMThe comment was for everyone in general not just for you.

like Mathius said above, the 3d0 is often overlooked but has great games. I was not impressed with its 3d, Its 2d is another story ;)

That's funny my boss at work seems to be all 3do obsessed too.  I've never seen one in action.

Quote from: HercTNT on 10/07/2012, 10:48 AM

Quote from: Drakon on 10/07/2012, 01:40 AMSorry was venting a bit.  Anyway I completely agree that good programming can make any hardware platform shine.

Quote from: HercTNT on 10/06/2012, 09:03 PMThe comment was for everyone in general not just for you.

like Mathius said above, the 3d0 is often overlooked but has great games. I was not impressed with its 3d, Its 2d is another story ;)

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/06/2012, 05:18 PMWhy does everyone thing the 3DO has the best version of Need for Speed?  Yeah, the graphics are a bit more rich but they're MUCH slower and there's far less to do in the game.

Do other versions of NFS run faster? I haven't played them, but the slow speed of the 3DO version is an important part of the real-life, simulator feeling, IMO. The 3DO version is great with the analog Flight Stick Pro, too.

Yeah the PS and Saturn versions run a tad faster, but also visually are weaker and play more arcade like. The best versions of the game are the NFS SE  release for Win95 and NFS for 3DO.

The PS and Saturn versions have more tracks as well.  The PS version is pretty grainy (like most PS games).

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/07/2012, 06:04 PMThe PS and Saturn versions have more tracks as well.  The PS version is pretty grainy (like most PS games).

The newer tracks are also on the PC Se release. It was somewhat of a trade off, because the new tracks are not that great, just arcade style tracks, and in the process you lost the smart ass wise  guy present on the 3DO version.

That sucks. Mr X was an important, annoying, part of growing up in the Nineties. And it's not like NFS needed more tracks. The fun comes from epic crashes, mastering the cars, and playing the same handful of courses over and over trying to shave off a second or two.

Yeah exactly. The original tracks were realistic, elaborate road layouts with one on one races involved and plenty of oncoming traffic making it a perfect experience. The car physics seemed to be more realistic too. The later courses added in were just arcade style lap races basically that did not require any real skill or precise timing like the original ones required, and the car physics on Saturn and Ps1 felt dumbed down somewhat taking away from the challenge. I'd always play it on 3DO using the harder to drive cars like the Dodge Viper and manual controls. It really added to the challenge and you really had to plot out your gear shifting. Anyone could jump in on the Saturn or PS1 port though and use the harder cars fairly well right off the bat due to it being dumbed down.

I think my favorite part of Need for Speed was running over trees.  They'd fall over flat as pancakes.

Quote from: Drakon on 10/05/2012, 07:05 PMI also hate when people argue about hardware like this..... But people start flame wars about me acting like I'm a retard because they think the genesis has a better library of games.  Sure, if you're into crappy games and hate rpgs / action games then I guess you would consider the genesis to have a better game library..... It just bothers me when I post that I think the snes has a better library than the genesis and some retard who's against rpgs and platformers responds with "wtf are you smoking?".

Yep, no bias here.  Are you sure it's not you that's the flaming retard fanboy?

Your argument is no more legitimate than saying "But people start flame wars about me acting like I'm a retard because they think the SNES has a better library of games.  Sure, if you're into slow games and hate shewties / sports games then I guess you would consider the SNES to have a better game library."  The point being that not everybody will agree on what quantifies the 'best' library, and no one system has the strongest library in each and every genre; it's plain and simple fanboyism for you to lay down the law and say the SNES's library, sound chip, and whatever other subjective metric you can come up with is unarguably the absolute best.

As much as I personally love the pc-e/turbo as being my favorite game library I don't think it has the strongest in terms of the number of games ratio.  I actually think the neo-geo is the king when it comes to game ratio.  There is really only a couple games on the neo that I feel are total turds.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/06/2012, 05:18 PMWhy does everyone thing the 3DO has the best version of Need for Speed?  Yeah, the graphics are a bit more rich but they're MUCH slower and there's far less to do in the game.

You know the answer to this, Joe! If a game is released on both an obscure system that nobody has and a popular system that everyone has, the obscure version is the best by default. This is always true, and don't bother arguing with so called "facts" and the fact that you've played both versions even though the fanboy you are arguing against has not.

No RPGs on the Genesis?

(https://segaretro.org/images/3/3b/Phantasy_Star_II%2C_Battle.png)

No Action games?

(https://web.archive.org/web/20160910013947im_/http://games-sega.ru/images2/contrahardcorps.2.gif)

no platformers?

(http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/media/11627/1/87.jpg)

Hard Corps is better than Alien Wars, Phantasy Star 2, 3, and 4 are all fucking tits on toast, and Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Rocket Knight , Vector Man, and Ristar all think you're a retard.

You're clearly on the crack pipe son,  Alien Wars blows Hard Corps out of the water in every category except for challenge. 

Contra III is probably the finest side scrolling run n' gun game ever produced.  Hard Corps is very fun, but isn't in the same league.

Alien Wars is nothing without the Motorcycle level.

Level 1 is just Contra 1 on crack, Level 2 is "why did they do this" Level 3 is alright.  Kinda boring til the end.

Level 4 is YEAHAHAAAAAA

Level 5 is "fuck, whyd they do this!?"

and then Level 6 is "man this is familiar".



Hard Corps has 4 character choices, intenser action, better music, and more challenge.

I choose Hard Corps.

Sheena with the Axe Lazer.

FUCK ALL THE OTHERS.

Quote from: JKM on 10/08/2012, 01:46 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/06/2012, 05:18 PMWhy does everyone thing the 3DO has the best version of Need for Speed?  Yeah, the graphics are a bit more rich but they're MUCH slower and there's far less to do in the game.

You know the answer to this, Joe! If a game is released on both an obscure system that nobody has and a popular system that everyone has, the obscure version is the best by default. This is always true, and don't bother arguing with so called "facts" and the fact that you've played both versions even though the fanboy you are arguing against has not.

I'm not sure if this is meant to be a jab at me, or just a general remark, because I have played/owned every version of NFS pt1 released except the shity Skyline Memorial import, and have been playing NFS1 for years on end now. Unfortunately for Saturn and PS1, their versions were just not as good. It in no way means they are crap though. They were just dumbed down too much on the car handling originally set in the 3DO, and that paired with the higher frame rate, it just felt too arcade like and less like a serious driving sim. This ended up being a problem carried over to NFS II also, and somewhat to NFS 3 until they finally went totally back to their sim roots with Porsche Unleashed and High Stakes.

The best version is of Pt1 is SE on Pc by far, due to the realistic handling, superior visuals and audio both, and all the content contained in the game. The 3DO original is 2nd up easily, because honestly, it was a masterpiece and well ahead of its time, matched only by the original PC non-SE port until PC Se hit the market.

Quote from: guest on 10/08/2012, 01:25 PM

Quote from: Drakon on 10/05/2012, 07:05 PMI also hate when people argue about hardware like this..... But people start flame wars about me acting like I'm a retard because they think the genesis has a better library of games.  Sure, if you're into crappy games and hate rpgs / action games then I guess you would consider the genesis to have a better game library..... It just bothers me when I post that I think the snes has a better library than the genesis and some retard who's against rpgs and platformers responds with "wtf are you smoking?".

Yep, no bias here.  Are you sure it's not you that's the flaming retard fanboy?

Your argument is no more legitimate than saying "But people start flame wars about me acting like I'm a retard because they think the SNES has a better library of games.  Sure, if you're into slow games and hate shewties / sports games then I guess you would consider the SNES to have a better game library."  The point being that not everybody will agree on what quantifies the 'best' library, and no one system has the strongest library in each and every genre; it's plain and simple fanboyism for you to lay down the law and say the SNES's library, sound chip, and whatever other subjective metric you can come up with is unarguably the absolute best.

I don't think I have ever argued that a system is superior to another in my adult life. I just say which I personally enjoy more and leave it at that. Having enough room in my heart for all systems seems to be a rarity among other gamers.

Yeah I respect peoples opinions it's just silly when people have the mentality that everyone should think their way.  I don't care if other people think certain consoles have better libraries but when they treat me like I'm mental for loving the snes library it's just annoying.

Quote from: guest on 10/08/2012, 01:25 PM

Quote from: Drakon on 10/05/2012, 07:05 PMI also hate when people argue about hardware like this..... But people start flame wars about me acting like I'm a retard because they think the genesis has a better library of games.  Sure, if you're into crappy games and hate rpgs / action games then I guess you would consider the genesis to have a better game library..... It just bothers me when I post that I think the snes has a better library than the genesis and some retard who's against rpgs and platformers responds with "wtf are you smoking?".

Yep, no bias here.  Are you sure it's not you that's the flaming retard fanboy?

Your argument is no more legitimate than saying "But people start flame wars about me acting like I'm a retard because they think the SNES has a better library of games.  Sure, if you're into slow games and hate shewties / sports games then I guess you would consider the SNES to have a better game library."  The point being that not everybody will agree on what quantifies the 'best' library, and no one system has the strongest library in each and every genre; it's plain and simple fanboyism for you to lay down the law and say the SNES's library, sound chip, and whatever other subjective metric you can come up with is unarguably the absolute best.

Quote from: Drakon on 10/05/2012, 07:05 PMSure, if you're into crappy games and hate rpgs / action games then I guess you would consider the genesis to have a better game library.

I grew up with a SNES and I've never been a big Genesis gamer, but I prefer the RPG selection on the Genesis. The Genesis has a lot of nontraditional RPGs, tactical RPGs, Western RPGs, and weird experimental shit.

Other than Zelda, my favorite SNES RPGs are all ports: Ultima, Might and Magic, Eye of the Beholder, Wizardry, Ys, Drakken, etc. I don't like the exclusives: plot-heavy Final Fantasies and Chrono Trigger, formulaic JRPGs like Breath of Fire and Lufia, and cutesy RPG-lites for kids like Paladin's Quest, Mystic Quest, Mario RPG.

I realize this is all personal taste of course. I guess I just hate SNES RPG's because FFVI and Chrono Trigger were a big departure from what I enjoy and I still harbor a grudge for how they redefined the genre.

I liked Arkhan's post because the pictures kept getting bigger and bigger, giving the whole thing a "Seriously!  Are you kidding me?" vibe.

Wow, someone got all creepy Internet stalked because they said they think the SNES sucks.

Heres my take on the console wars from that era.  Keep in mind, I was 7 when PS1 came out:

MOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM I WANT TO PLAY SONIC 2.

AND DONKEY KONG COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*got for birthday and shit along with Mario Kart, Road Runner, Taz for Genesis, and some other stuff*

OH MAN PIRATES OF DARK WATER FOR SNES.  I WANNA PLAY THAT


MAXIMUM CARNAGE FOR GENESIS! ONLY 7$ I WANNA TRY THAT!

*spend a ton of money (30$ is alot when youre 10 or whatever)*

OMG THIS GAME STORE HAS TURBO GRAFX GAMES.  WHAT IS CHINA WARRIOR IM BUYING IT

*bought china warrior and fantasy zone*

*played everything on every system*

VIDEO GAMES ARE FUCKING AWESOME.  WHATS A BIT WAR. IS THAT LIKE, A TINY WAR?

Quote*bump*  I also hate when people argue about hardware like this.  Not just that but I constantly get people arguing with me over which console has the better game library.  I say the snes has the best library ever, certainly better than what you can get for the genesis or even the pce cd.  And the nes has the second best library.  But people start flame wars about me acting like I'm a retard because they think the genesis has a better library of games.  Sure, if you're into crappy games and hate rpgs / action games then I guess you would consider the genesis to have a better game library.

Wow, you managed to play through the entire PCE CD library in a couple weeks? How did you manage to clear the RPGs so fast? :shock:

Genesis is generally considered the best 16-bit console for action games and SNES the worst for action in general. The Genesis also has many RPG games (WAY more than you think), many of which offer unique experiences that you can't find anything like for SNES. The Genesis/Mega Drive may have fewer traditional JRPG games than the SNES/SFC, but only someone who doesn't appreciate RPGs would limit themself to a single console for them. Especially a strictly cart-based console like the SNES.

Quote from: guest on 10/08/2012, 10:35 PM

Quote*bump*  I also hate when people argue about hardware like this.  Not just that but I constantly get people arguing with me over which console has the better game library.  I say the snes has the best library ever, certainly better than what you can get for the genesis or even the pce cd.  And the nes has the second best library.  But people start flame wars about me acting like I'm a retard because they think the genesis has a better library of games.  Sure, if you're into crappy games and hate rpgs / action games then I guess you would consider the genesis to have a better game library.

Wow, you managed to play through the entire PCE CD library in a couple weeks? How did you manage to clear the RPGs so fast? :shock:

Genesis is generally considered the best 16-bit console for action games and SNES the worst for action in general. The Genesis also has many RPG games (WAY more than you think), many of which offer unique experiences that you can't find anything like for SNES. The Genesis/Mega Drive may have fewer traditional JRPG games than the SNES/SFC, but only someone who doesn't appreciate RPGs would limit themself to a single console for them. Especially a strictly cart-based console like the SNES.

The only RPGs I could get into on the MD is Lunar and Popful Mail. Which is a pity since there are things I enjoy about the Phantasy Star series (especially PSII's graphics!). That series was just too damned difficult and unforgiving for me.

With or without the CD add-on, the PCE was only ever on the cutting edge of gaming in one genre, and that's console shooters. Almost everything else is B-grade material that we all love either because of nostalgia or because it's a different flavor than Nintendo or Sega.

RPGs did all right on the PCE-CD thanks to animated scenes and voice acting, but the parts that actually involve pressing buttons are mostly not up to par with the best Square/Enix stuff of any given year. There are also a shit-load of action RPGs, but so many of them are so primitive or so flawed that the PCE still didn't really carry the torch for that genre either.

hmm...

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/09/2012, 08:14 AMWith or without the CD add-on, the PCE was only ever on the cutting edge of gaming in one genre, and that's console shooters. Almost everything else is B-grade material that we all love either because of nostalgia or because it's a different flavor than Nintendo or Sega.

I fail to see how all the excellent arcade ports, action titles, and rpgs are "B grade" on Tg-16 and Pce. Seriously, you consider the Y's games B grade? You consider Dracula X B grade? Valis 1? Bloody Wolf? Legendary Axe? Splatterhouse? Parasol Stars? Street Fighter 2 Champ? World Heroes 2?  I mean hell, you are aware that all the Neo ports on both Snes and Pce are better on pce, due to the cutting edge technology called ram and cd drives? This kind of applied to any game in general that was present on both systems. And coming up with complicated button schemes and menu systems in a RPG doesn't make it cutting edge, it just makes it overly complicated. And I mean, its not like the Snes has crap, but its just stupid to say that everything bu the shooters on Necs format were B grade compared to Snes.

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/09/2012, 08:14 AMWith or without the CD add-on, the PCE was only ever on the cutting edge of gaming in one genre, and that's console shooters. Almost everything else is B-grade material that we all love either because of nostalgia or because it's a different flavor than Nintendo or Sega.

RPGs did all right on the PCE-CD thanks to animated scenes and voice acting, but the parts that actually involve pressing buttons are mostly not up to par with the best Square/Enix stuff of any given year. There are also a shit-load of action RPGs, but so many of them are so primitive or so flawed that the PCE still didn't really carry the torch for that genre either.

WOW. :P

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 10/08/2012, 04:23 PMI'm not sure if this is meant to be a jab at me, or just a general remark,

Just a general remark. On NFS specifically, the 3do version is tits, but I've never played any other version.

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/09/2012, 08:14 AMWith or without the CD add-on, the PCE was only ever on the cutting edge of gaming in one genre, and that's console shooters. Almost everything else is B-grade material that we all love either because of nostalgia or because it's a different flavor than Nintendo or Sega.

RPGs did all right on the PCE-CD thanks to animated scenes and voice acting, but the parts that actually involve pressing buttons are mostly not up to par with the best Square/Enix stuff of any given year. There are also a shit-load of action RPGs, but so many of them are so primitive or so flawed that the PCE still didn't really carry the torch for that genre either.

Your already taking alot of flak for this i'm sure...........i'm really sorry about that..........but..............HERE COMES SOME MORE!!! GUAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA. seriously though, thats your opinion and thats fine, but you are really off base in terms of being objective. Airzonk, Magical chase, Liquid kids, legendary axe 2, bonk, super star soldier, blazing lazers, are not B-grade, not by a mile. The turbo may not have the extensive library of the Genesis or super nes, but there are a ton of gems to be found.

SamIAm, I think your opinion would be different if you would have played most pc-e/turbo rpg's before any Square/Enix games clouded your mind on what a jrpg "should" be. :)

HercTNT, the shooters are awesome, man. That's what I was saying. PCE shooters were so good and so plentiful, it's practically a whole movement unto itself in the shooter genre. I'm ragging on the other stuff.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 10/09/2012, 09:26 AMI fail to see how all the excellent arcade ports,

There aren't that many of them, and they hardly contribute to a strong presence in any particular genre for the PCE. Besides, what are a few ports without some sweet exclusives? This ain't the X68000.

QuoteSeriously, you consider the Ys games B grade?

The gameplay, yes.

QuoteYou consider Dracula X B grade?

Notice I said "almost all". This is one of a small number of non-shooter exceptions.

QuoteValis 1?

Valis embodies the console to me. Cutting edge CD sound and cutscenes, nice sprites and colors, plus all the anime you can stomach. But the gameplay design? The stage design? It's fairly conservative stuff, to put it nicely.

The sign of a really great game...or performer or movie or album... is when it made everything before it obsolete, and everything after it bore its mark. Blame it on lack of console sales if you want to, but I don't see that happening very much on the PCE, especially in terms of gameplay design.

Here's a question I'd be happy to have someone school me on: Are there any exclusive, non-shooter PCE games out there that were so good that others cloned their gameplay designs? Like all those SMB3 clones? Sequels on other systems don't count.

The notion that games should fit pre-determined genres is one of the worst things to ever happen to games. The PCE's strongest asset is how many original non-cookie cutter games it has.

Nintendo is one of the worst companies for putting out clones. SMB3 itself is a clone.

Making everything before it obselete and having everything after bear its mark only happens with shallow trendy pop art. Great things remain great and don't cancel out other great things that come before or after. That's how you measure their greatness. You just described "flavour of the month" gaming. If that's what you're into, that's fine. But the rest of us enjoy a great variety of games because of the games themselves, not their popularity.

Quote from: geise on 10/09/2012, 02:50 PMSamIAm, I think your opinion would be different if you would have played most pc-e/turbo rpg's before any Square/Enix games clouded your mind on what a jrpg "should" be. :)

I think thay everyone's opinions of what they truly enjoy would be different if they never discussed games with others and were never exposed to the media.

I'll take that as a no.

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/09/2012, 03:16 PMI'll take that as a no.

Fair point, but arguing innovation is a really tough thing. Are you only considering games that were released in the us or japan as well?  Faceball was very innovative. Obvisously games had been around for along time anyways, so most games released by everybody were not truly innovative. That also depends on what you consider innovative. Are we talking gameplay, graphics, sound, control, or all of the above? Gunstar heroes has very innovative graphics and effects on the sega, but the gameplay has been done before. How about the cd addon for the turbo and its animated cutscenes? is that innovative? Just some food for thought.

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/09/2012, 03:16 PMI'll take that as a no.

WOW. :shock:

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/09/2012, 02:52 PMHere's a question I'd be happy to have someone school me on: Are there any exclusive, non-shooter PCE games out there that were so good that others cloned their gameplay designs? Like all those SMB3 clones? Sequels on other systems don't count.

The rest of your post is too foolish to bother with, but I'll try this one.  Besides the obvious titles like Bomberman '93/'94 and Dracula X, there's Sherlock Holmes, which set the standard for the slew of FMV games to come, and Tengai Makyou Ziria, which was the first title to bring story lines to life with extensive cut scenes and voice acting.

Ok here's one.      

AI - CHO ANIKI

Wait...shooter...damn it!  #-o

Oh, JJ and Jeff! :D


Wait. What are we talking about again?

Damn, Sam, you're doing some serious trolling.

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/09/2012, 08:14 AMthe PCE was only ever on the cutting edge of gaming in one genre, and that's console shooters.

The problem is that you're limiting your criteria to strictly gameplay, as if that's the only defining factor in a genre. The PCE broke ground in many areas.
-----
Shooters: we all agree here.

Fighters: Between Fighting Street and the Neo ports, the PCE wins. We may laugh about Fighting Street, but the PCECD was the first home console capable of even attempting a tournament fighter. When the genre finally exploded on the SNES two years later, the PCE had no trouble raising the ante. The Neo ports smoked everything on the SNES until Killer instinct came out in '95. Also, in a genre that consists almost entirely of arcade ports, I don't know why you criticize the PCE's lack of exclusives (Kabuki Itouryodan? Flash Hiders?).

Music: If you're looking at the gameplay in Ys, you're kind of missing the point. Ys didn't get unprecedented "10's" in magazine reviews because it was a sweet Hydlide clone, it got 10's because it was the first time that video game music was absolutely fucking awesome, orchestrated, dramatic, emotional shit. It was the first time video gaming sounded cool. Years later, video gamers finally ceased to be labeled as dorks as they could listen to Dead Kennedys while playing Tony Hawk.

FMV: for better or worse, the TGCD did it first.

JRPGs: 3-way tie. While Sega was upping the Mega Power and mixing sci-fi and fantasy and Square was refining their battle system, Cosmic Fantasy 2 followed Final Fantasy IV as "RPG of the year" for pioneering little things like an immersive plot, good voice acting, and character development. FFVII, MGS, and all of those memorable characters in Playstation games wouldn't have been the same without it. EDIT: also, like NecroPhile pointed out, Tengai Makyou Ziria really raised the bar in terms of production, cut scenes, and celebrities.

Platformers: the gameplay is elementary, but Bonk was first 16-bit mascot done right.

Party games and Multiplayers: the TG is criminally under-appreciated in this department simply because it wasn't very well known in the U.S., but we have to remember that the TurboTap preceded the Four Score. While the NES introduced a mixed bag of compatible games in 1990-91, the TG already had Dungeon Explorer, some good sports games, the first five-player Bomberman before the NES even had three-player Bomberman.

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/09/2012, 02:52 PMHere's a question I'd be happy to have someone school me on: Are there any exclusive, non-shooter PCE games out there that were so good that others cloned their gameplay designs? Like all those SMB3 clones? Sequels on other systems don't count.

To be honest this is setting up a almost near retarded expectation considering the fact that the different stuff for Atari, computers like the MSX,  the Master System/Sega Mark III, and the Nes were all out prior and kind of laid out all the basic groundwork for everything else done. I mean lets face it, hold this same standard against the Snes or Genesis and you are going to get the same results, just a few titles here or there. Everything else copies off of work done on the prior machines. Most everything on all of the 16-bit systems can point back to everything released prior to them, in action, rpg, adventure, driving, sports, etc. What really matters is how things improved across the board as time went. All the 16 bit systems found ways to improve on the work done prior for prior systems, and they all had their strong points and weak points.

edit:
Contra 3 copies off of Contra and Super C, and to some extent Ikari Warriors
Super Castlevania 4 copies off of Castlevania
Super Mario Worlds basic gameplay elements were all taken from prior Marios.
Final Fantasy later titles all evolved from prior RPG work on Nes and elsewhere
F-Zero? Go talk to Victory Run, Outrun, Al Unser Jr.'s Turbo Racing, and every other racer before it. All F-Zero added was fluff, via mode 7, and a warm soundtrack.
Star Fox? What about Silpheed?
I could keep going, but there is no point.

Yeah, claiming that the pce lacks in innovation and and has nothing more to offer than cutting edge shooting games is total crack sausage.

The PCE brought innovations and cutting edge technologies more than almost any other system ever did above the 8-Bit generation.

Not that this matters alone, but the result out of this were games that weren't even doable on a SNES, which came out more than 3 years later. And we all know that 3 years is a huge gap in the video game timeline. Especially around later 80s/early 90s, were games changed drastically.

In the very beginning, the PCE formed the perfect bridge between the 8 and 16-bit era, hence earlier games tended to look and play simpler, although R-Type already busted that image quickly of the screen. Hella, already Kung Fu did show the finger to the rest.
So it catched up fast with new innovations and games, that disassociated itself from the real 8-bit era. Gorgeous arcadeish action, colors & gameplay finally came to reality within ones own four private walls.
Followed up with a CD-ROM add-on even before Sega could place its Mega Drive in the market.
Which again allowed games that were not possible the same way on competitive systems until the beginning of the 90s.
Also it had "Sega" games that looked much better than segas own in-house production on the MD. Or many other games that were released on both platforms, even snes included.

One thing is for certain, the PCE was ahead of its time. And that was mostly accomplished through innovations (hardware and software).

Quote from: Tatsujin on 10/09/2012, 11:13 PMYeah, claiming that the pce lacks in innovation and and has nothing more to offer than cutting edge shooting games is total crack sausage.

Sig worthy ;) LOL

Quote from: Tatsujin on 10/09/2012, 11:13 PMYeah, claiming that the pce lacks in innovation and and has nothing more to offer than cutting edge shooting games is total crack sausage.

The PCE brought innovations and cutting edge technologies more than almost any other system ever did above the 8-Bit generation.

Not that this matters alone, but the result out of this were games that weren't even doable on a SNES, which came out more than 3 years later. And we all know that 3 years is a huge gap in the video game timeline. Especially around later 80s/early 90s, were games changed drastically.

In the very beginning, the PCE formed the perfect bridge between the 8 and 16-bit era, hence earlier games tended to look and play simpler, although R-Type already busted that image quickly of the screen. Hella, already Kung Fu did show the finger to the rest.
So it catched up fast with new innovations and games, that disassociated itself from the real 8-bit era. Gorgeous arcadeish action, colors & gameplay finally came to reality within ones own four private walls.
Followed up with a CD-ROM add-on even before Sega could place its Mega Drive in the market.
Which again allowed games that were not possible the same way on competitive systems until the beginning of the 90s.
Also it had "Sega" games that looked much better than segas own in-house production on the MD. Or many other games that were released on both platforms, even snes included.

One thing is for certain, the PCE was ahead of its time. And that was mostly accomplished through innovations (hardware and software).

Well said!   =D>

I would take Emerald Dragon on PC-E over any other version.  Especially over the SNES/SFC version.

The MSX version is quite good as well, Geise.

I am torn between those two.

Quote from: guest on 10/09/2012, 08:04 PMDamn, Sam, you're doing some serious trolling.

You may have noticed that I enjoy a good argument.

The whole thing about whether or not there are clones wasn't supposed to be the crux of what I'm saying. It's just an example I used to look for a really innovative PCE game.

Sticking voices and cutscenes into a PCE-CD game is a totally obvious thing to do when you're given the format. But the power-ups in Gunhed and Spriggan? The enemies and pacing in Soldier Blade? The terrain layouts in Lords of Thunder? Those took real creative genius, and they were unparalleled regardless of the hardware. That's what "cutting edge" means to me. Even if they weren't exactly cloned, you can still find their influence in games after them.

That's why I'm rarely impressed by some of the "innovations" everyone makes a big deal out of in PCE-CD games. Of course, you can do some brilliant writing, performance, and animation in CD cutscenes and implement them in really creative ways, but that's far from always being the case on the PCE. Most of it is completely generic anime fluff that hardly works as more than garnish. Then you look at the actual gameplay-side of these (ahem) games, and you see that it's often obsolete and/or seriously flawed somehow.

When it comes to RPGs, Ys and Tengai Makyo have exceptional cutscenes and decent storytelling overall, but even they are little stale on the gameplay-side. How good the actual stories are is a whole other debate that I'd rather not get into, but suffice to say that I don't think they actually beat everybody else.

I'll give it to you that fighters do all right on the PCE if you have the arcade card. I also admit that I don't play the genre enough to know how well the exclusives hold up today.

Anyway, at the end of the day, if a person who likes retro games asks me about the PCE, I'm going to tell him that if he likes shooters, he should get one because PCE shooters are fuckin' awesome. But otherwise, I'll heartily recommend a modest number of other individual titles, and it will start going downhill from there.

Just being honest.

You realize the original Ys game is a PC-98 game, so the PCE one is like WHOADAMN awesome in comparison, while retaining what made the game work.


If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I've come to the conclusion that Sam is wearing bias goggles and is confusing good game design with being an innovator.  Case in point: SMB3 isn't at all innovative.  It's loved for having a fair difficulty level, well executed level design, and nicely drawn sprites and backgrounds, not for doing something different.

I dunno, it had some pretty innovative things, like sliding on your ass to hit all the goombas!!!!!


SMB3 was tits.  Its still great.    I love the fuckin frog suit.   I used to see how many levels I could flail through in that thing.   I once used it on one of the ships.  What a pain in the dick that was.

If you clear the airship with a frog suite the king gives you a special message.

Quote from: guest on 10/10/2012, 01:29 PMI dunno, it had some pretty innovative things, like sliding on your ass to hit all the goombas!!!!!


SMB3 was tits.  Its still great.    I love the fuckin frog suit.   I used to see how many levels I could flail through in that thing.   I once used it on one of the ships.  What a pain in the dick that was.

Quote from: guest on 10/10/2012, 01:29 PMSMB3 was tits.  Its still great.

FUCK YOU!  Super Mario World destroys that shit!  IT HAD FUCKING YOSHI!  So you can take your Super Mario Bros 3 with its 8-bit graphics and 8 bit sounds AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS because Super Mario World has 16-bit graphics, 16-bit soundz and 16-bit gameplay and 16-bit Yoshi and 16-bit controls.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/10/2012, 08:12 PM

Quote from: guest on 10/10/2012, 01:29 PMSMB3 was tits.  Its still great.

FUCK YOU!  Super Mario World destroys that shit!  IT HAD FUCKING YOSHI!  So you can take your Super Mario Bros 3 with its 8-bit graphics and 8 bit sounds AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS because Super Mario World has 16-bit graphics, 16-bit soundz and 16-bit gameplay and 16-bit Yoshi and 16-bit controls.

No, fuck you, and fuck Baltimore too.
http://youtu.be/4sZuN0xXWLc

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/10/2012, 11:51 AMYou may have noticed that I enjoy a good argument.

I know. I do too!  :D

QuoteThe whole thing about whether or not there are clones wasn't supposed to be the crux of what I'm saying. It's just an example I used to look for a really innovative PCE game.

OK, I don't care about your biased console recommendations and you need to stop changing your argument. Why don't you just say that you were wrong, rather than retreating and narrowing your criteria? You're not actually looking for cutting-edge innovations because you're discounting them all. Now you're apparently looking for gameplay innovations that were flawlessly executed in otherwise perfect games on the first attempt.  :roll: Such instances are exceedingly rare. Nintendo has been very fortunate to have several cases: SMB (revolutionized platformers and forever decided which button jumps), SM3, Zelda 1, and Super Mario Kart. The NES also had Square and Enix onboard for two RPG breakthroughs: 1) Dragon Warrior created the JRPG format by dumbing down the D&D-style rules Wizardry was using and breaking away from the non-linear Ultima style that required too much thinking for casual gamers, and 2) Final Fantasy took the rules-lite DW format and added an enjoyable battle interface. Otherwise, most innovations came earlier, like Professorson said.

Even with the absurd innovation + shocking new gameplay improvements + flawless game argument you've backed yourself into, the PCE still wins on both shooters and multiplayer party games, but I guess Dungeon Explorer and Bomberman don't count because they don't have "Mario" in the title.

Going back to your original charges about the PCE not being innovative, here's why you're dead wrong:
1) A lot more goes into a video game than just gameplay.
2) Unpopular games can be every bit as innovative and influential as blockbusters.
 
Just because fighting games weren't up to snuff when Hudson ported a stinker like Fighting Street doesn't mean it wasn't a breakthrough. Just because the music in Ys was slapped on an older game doesn't mean it didn't revolutionize game music. Just because FMV gameplay sucked doesn't mean Sherlock was less innovative than Blazing Lazers. As for the ACD fighters, console fighting games are all ports anyway. So please, stick to your point about cutting-edge games, not exclusives. (How many good fighting exclusives did the SNES have? Seriously.)

I also take issue with writing off the PCE's achievements in the realm of RPG's as a happy accident that came with the CD format. If you read the interviews, Hudson was a very unique environment. They were tight-knit, operated like a family, took chances, and had a very off-beat approach to game design and marketing. It was no accident that they choose to partner with NEC or that NEC happened to have the most affordable CD technology and Hudson had the guts to use it. Calling the first hundred-hour RPGs with cut scenes, decent acting, memorable characters, and small movie budgets "fluff" just because the gameplay wasn't new is a bunch of bullshit. The PCE was pumping out 2-D equivalents of Final Fantasy VII back when we were opening our free copies of Dragon Warrior from Nintendo Power. Innovative enough for you?

Quote from: guest on 10/10/2012, 09:51 PMI know. I do too!  :D

Good. :)

QuoteYou're not actually looking for cutting-edge innovations because you're discounting them all. Now you're apparently looking for gameplay innovations that were flawlessly executed in otherwise perfect games on the first attempt. 

Where did I say first attempt? I listed Gunhed, Soldier Blade and Lords of Thunder, and each of these are obviously stepping stones, particularly Soldier Blade. You're trying to pin the entirety of my argument on examples that aren't conclusions and inferences that aren't actually there.

The point I made in the very first paragraph of my first post a couple of pages ago is: A great many PCE shooters were fresh, thoroughly high-quality and helped move the genre a big step forward, while every other PCE genre struggled. This is true even if you look at only the exclusives. Other PCE games didn't exist in a void, but they had far less impact due to good design, and often far more weaknesses.

The PCE got a lot of firsts, thanks in a big way to things like its CD drive. Firsts are neat, especially when done well, but they don't make an awesome game. I'm sure you know that. While there is more to a game than gameplay, gameplay is the most crucial thing, and PCE RPGs are mostly stale on that front. Sorry, nice try, B+.

Don't confuse the cutting edge of technology or music or whatever else with the cutting edge of games. Ys has incredible music? Well Lords of Thunder has incredible everything, especially gameplay, and it's not alone.

QuoteCalling the first hundred-hour RPGs with cut scenes, decent acting, memorable characters, and small movie budgets "fluff" just because the gameplay wasn't new is a bunch of bullshit. The PCE was pumping out 2-D equivalents of Final Fantasy VII back when we were opening our free copies of Dragon Warrior from Nintendo Power. Innovative enough for you?

That's ridiculous. FFVII didn't just have FMVs, it blew the lid off nearly every aspect of RPG design. Is it even necessary to list them? Tengai Makyo without the little cutscenes every hour or so is not much more than a long Dragon Quest clone with a shitty menu system.

QuoteEven with the absurd innovation + shocking new gameplay improvements + flawless game argument you've backed yourself into, the PCE still wins on both shooters and multiplayer party games, but I guess Dungeon Explorer and Bomberman don't count because they don't have "Mario" in the title.

I'm reading Dungeon Explorer, Bomberman, and from your earlier post, some number of sports games. This alone makes the PCE into a great party game system? A little credit is due, but that's all. If it makes you happy, Dungeon Explorer is on my short list of non-shooters I'd immediately urge anybody to try.

I stand corrected, Sam isn't just biased - he's a straight up troll and/or moron.

I still don't have time to address so many contradictive arguments, but here's a few quick points.

SamIAm, have you actually played through Ys IV and TM Fuun Kabuki Den? It sounds like you're judging the entire TM/FEOE series based on some short play time with Ziria only. Its the PCE tha has RPGs in a higher league than the SNES. Its true that the SNES has more SNES style RPGs, due to them being stuck on the SNES hardware and carts. But PCE CD RPGs actually give you a reason to play through them.

Kabukiden is the ultimate anti-cart RPG. Every dungeon and map has unique art. It is a Final Fantasy  IV style TM game that really drives home the difference the CD format makes for RPGs. Square ditched Nintendo because they saw what the PCE CD-ROM did for RPGs and they copied Kabukiden by actually having characters run up to each other to attack.

Chrono Trigger and FFVII were two of the worst things to happen to JRPGs. They dumbed things down to the point of deserving a sub genre and were so popular that developers continued to kill JRPGs to the point that you now have the characters play themselves in battle and dungeon map consist of straight hallways.

Ignorant people like to trash the PCE Ys games because they don't understand the ramming battle gameplay and think its too simple, only because they've been brainwashed into thinking that you need to hit a button to swing a sword if a character has one im a non-Nintendo game. Nevermind that Twilight Princess battles consist of shaking your fists a few times and you're done. But there isn't even much ramning action in Ys II and IV, as people who have played them know. All that well designed stuff mentioned about particular games is exactly what Ys IV and Kabukiden are full of.

Quote from: CrackTiger on 10/11/2012, 01:12 PMFFVII were two of the worst things to happen to JRPGs. They dumbed things down to the point of deserving a sub genre and were so popular that developers continued to kill JRPGs to the point that you now have the characters play themselves in battle and dungeon map consist of straight hallways.

Err....

How was FFVII a bad thing?  Nothing was dumbed down in that game.  Once you were dumped out of Midgar, things got crazy.    The dungeons weren't linear (A few were, like Nibelheim Mountain, but its a trail up a mountain.  Duhrr).

and, Materia is still probably the best character development system ever put into an RPG.


There are so many side-things you can discover in FFVII, that I hardly see how that game was a bad thing.

I think you meant to type VIII. 

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/11/2012, 10:13 AMDon't confuse the cutting edge of technology or music or whatever else with the cutting edge of games.

Your argument basically comes down to: "Fighting Street, Ys, all PCE RPGs, the Neo ports, FMV games and Bonk weren't cutting edge because I don't like them enough."

QuoteI'm reading Dungeon Explorer, Bomberman, and from your earlier post, some number of sports games. This alone makes the PCE into a great party game system? A little credit is due, but that's all. If it makes you happy, Dungeon Explorer is on my short list of non-shooters I'd immediately urge anybody to try.

WTF. You know you're desperate when you're calling DE a shooter. Arcade run n' gun maybe, but however you define the genre, it's still a multiplayer party game. Also, you just changed your argument again. Now innovations + perfect games aren't enough, the games also have to define the system. Well, if the PCE doesn't have enough party games for you, that's your problem. The fact is DE and Bomberman are PERFECT and the PCE did them first. If you had four people in your living room in 1989, you could play Dungeon Explorer. The NES and Genesis didn't even have fucking multitaps yet. Gauntlet 2 and the Four-score were still a year away. 3-player Bomberman 2 was two years away and 5-player TG Bomberman preceded that too.

Quote from: guest on 10/11/2012, 02:53 PM

QuoteI'm reading Dungeon Explorer, Bomberman, and from your earlier post, some number of sports games. This alone makes the PCE into a great party game system? A little credit is due, but that's all. If it makes you happy, Dungeon Explorer is on my short list of non-shooters I'd immediately urge anybody to try.

WTF. You know you're desperate when you're calling DE a shooter. Arcade run n' gun maybe, but however you define the genre, it's still a multiplayer party game.

To be fair, he called Dungeon Explorer a non-shooter.

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/11/2012, 10:13 AMThat's ridiculous. FFVII didn't just have FMVs, it blew the lid off nearly every aspect of RPG design. Is it even necessary to list them? Tengai Makyo without the little cutscenes every hour or so is not much more than a long Dragon Quest clone with a shitty menu system.

OK, fine, Tengai Makyo is a Dragon Warrior clone. It's also a perfect one. According to you, when PCE clones of Astro Warrior add new elements, they're "innovative stepping stones", but when perfect DW clones make breakthroughs, it's "fluff." What I'm saying is that the PCE RPGs you hate so much were the stepping stones between Dragon Warrior and FFVII. Stupid as it is, FFVII wasn't created in a vacuum. If it hadn't been for Tengai Makyo, Cosmic Fantasy, Lucienne's Quest, and a bunch of shitty FMV games, FFVII wouldn't "blown the top off" anything.

Personally, I can play a JRPG once in a while, but I don't really like PCE JRPGs OR SNES ones. The difference between me and you is that I can appreciate the technical innovations of a well-crafted game whether or not I like it. The more we talk, the more I seem to be talking to a Squaresoft fanboy. Tell me, was your first console a SNES or a Playstation?

Quote from: guest on 10/11/2012, 01:12 PMChrono Trigger and FFVII were two of the worst things to happen to JRPGs. They dumbed things down to the point of deserving a sub genre and were so popular that developers continued to kill JRPGs to the point that you now have the characters play themselves in battle and dungeon map consist of straight hallways.

Chrono trigger is brilliant man, much better than ff7.

Quote from: Drakon on 10/11/2012, 07:28 PM

Quote from: guest on 10/11/2012, 01:12 PMChrono Trigger and FFVII were two of the worst things to happen to JRPGs. They dumbed things down to the point of deserving a sub genre and were so popular that developers continued to kill JRPGs to the point that you now have the characters play themselves in battle and dungeon map consist of straight hallways.

Chrono trigger is brilliant man, much better than ff7.

For what it's worth I like the dumbing down of maze-filled maps in JRPGs. Nothing irritates me more than pointless mazes.

I liked Chrono Trigger (playing through it again right now, actually) but I did not care for Final Fantasy 7.  I got bored pretty fast and just stopped playing, eventually selling my copy.  Chrono Trigger, for the most part, is pretty balanced.  It's not perfect, mind you.  Some of your objectives are ambiguous at best.  I'm not a big fan of mazes, either. I hate coming up to a path that splits 96 different ways. Then they each come to a split which also splits 96 different ways.  I have to explore each and every one of them otherwise I'll always feel like I'm missing something and it takes forever.

Alot of older games have nonsensical dungeons.

Windy/intricate for the sake of making the dungeon last longer.

Into the dungeon.

of DICKS.

If believing that the better stuff coming out of Squaresoft in the early-mid 90's was great makes me a fanboy, then I guess I'm a fanboy. Frankly, I think having to argue why they're good is like having to argue why The Beatles or Spielberg is good. I guess Indiana Jones is the worst thing to happen to cinema, eh Black Tiger? Maybe you don't think so, but I'm sure someone does.

...and no, Squaresoft/SNES RPGs are definitely not the only ones I enjoy.

So if you think PCE RPGs are the bomb, that's fine, but I'm just not feeling it. Neither are most Japanese gamers if the sales numbers of the Tengai Makyo re-releases are any indication.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they're rotten. There are a few I honestly haven't even looked at, and I've had good wholesome fun with Ys and Xanadu, too. It's just that from what I've seen, they're not the best of their time, too much value is placed on their voices/cutscenes, and the games themselves can have any number of very significant problems. Most of them just aren't A-list material.

All my opinion, of course.

Oh, and vestcunt, you could cut every FMV out of FFVII and it would still be balanced, fun, and nearly just as revolutionary. Furthermore, the FMVs themselves have almost nothing in common with PCE cutscenes whether you're looking at creation technique, content, or their usage in-game.

Also, just for the record, I think Square went off the deep end with FFVIII.

What can I say? I've been exploring the PCE library over the course of a few years now, and even though I certainly haven't beaten every last game, the only genre so far with more than one or two games that thoroughly amaze me is shooters.

I think your perception of RPGs on the PCE is going to be skewed because you can't read the text/understand the stories.

Of course you won't be too concerned with a cutscene you can't understand.


I suggest you check out games like Outlive, Necromancer, Anearth, La Valeur, and the LOH games.

The reason Tengai doesn't get rereleases is probably because it never really had a following in the western world.


It also has a running joke making fun of round eye.


You are sorely missing out on some great games though.   Sindibad is another solid RPG.  The Wizardry games are great too. 

Yeah I never liked ff7 either.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/12/2012, 12:31 AMI liked Chrono Trigger (playing through it again right now, actually) but I did not care for Final Fantasy 7.  I got bored pretty fast and just stopped playing, eventually selling my copy.

Me too.  My favourite square games starts with ff3 for the famicom and ends with super mario rpg.

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/12/2012, 11:59 AMIf believing that the better stuff coming out of Squaresoft in the early-mid 90's was great makes me a fanboy, then I guess I'm a fanboy.

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/12/2012, 11:59 AMIf believing that the better stuff coming out of Squaresoft in the early-mid 90's was great makes me a fanboy, then I guess I'm a fanboy.

Me too!
(https://cdn.mobygames.com/covers/4263413-rad-racer-ii-nes-front-cover.jpg)

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/11/2012, 01:37 PM

Quote from: CrackTiger on 10/11/2012, 01:12 PMFFVII were two of the worst things to happen to JRPGs. They dumbed things down to the point of deserving a sub genre and were so popular that developers continued to kill JRPGs to the point that you now have the characters play themselves in battle and dungeon map consist of straight hallways.

Err....

How was FFVII a bad thing?  Nothing was dumbed down in that game.  Once you were dumped out of Midgar, things got crazy.    The dungeons weren't linear (A few were, like Nibelheim Mountain, but its a trail up a mountain.  Duhrr).

and, Materia is still probably the best character development system ever put into an RPG.


There are so many side-things you can discover in FFVII, that I hardly see how that game was a bad thing.

I think you meant to type VIII.  

What I meant was that Square put out a couple dumbed down RPGs for non-RPG fans and they became extremely popular and that led to RPGs in general being simplified further and further to appeal to as many people as possible. I am a fan of FFVII, bought it on launch day and played it to death, tracked down a copy of the PC version as soon as I got my first PC and played it to death. Because I love RPGs, I appreciate FFVII for what it is, even if I would have ranked it below most console RPGs up to that point. I was very disappointed the first time I played it, that everything had been simplified to such a degree from FFVI/FFIII. There are so few slots for equipment, so few pieces of equipment, so few weapons overall and each character has is restricted to a single type, etc. Final Fantasy is a management sim-style RPG among console RPGs. When they nerfed that aspect by so much and made the new system so overly powerful that there isn't much to do with it (a couple tacked on enemies in the N.A. version that can survive past 2 turns is nice), it became sort of a Final Fantasy-lite game for beginners. It also shot for hollywood style storytelling, which game developers seem to model after lower tier b-movies. It doesn't matter how good or bad it is on its own, the impact it had led to RPGs becoming linear barely-interactive packages of entertainment.

Both FFVII and Chrono Trigger had so much potential, but were overly ambitious and seemed to have been kicked out the door before they wee ready. Chorno Trigger also relies heavily on a gimmicky system that is so unbalanced and overly powerful that you can't make use of its potential. But at least Chrono Trigger retained the sense of adventure that most great console/J-RPGs have. FFVII was a cart style game on discs and the opposite of Grandia, which came out at the same time. Grandia didn't even have much in the way of pre-rendered cinemas, but it managed to bring real art to like with its 3D and continued the quality of storytelling found in 16-bit CD RPGs with voice acting and expressive portraits. It is the ultimate tribute/celebration to adventure filled JRPGs, even as it actually offered something new with it battles.

FFVII was also marketed by its cinemas alone and emphasized the sci-fi side. It was again the beginning of the heavy slide towards straight sci-fi and shunning of fantasy. Again, trying to ape hollywood style storytelling, where attempts to make an adaptation of anything fantastical more realistic, so that moviegoers will accept it, instead makes it embarrassingly unbelievable.



Anyway, Kabukiden was clearly developed with the use of a time machine, as it owes so much of its design to the lid-blowing innovation of FFVII from four years in the future.

SPOILER ALERT!









Tengai Makyou Fuun Kabuki Den 1993 / Final Fantasy VII 1997


3 party members -unlike previous Final Fantasy games

Characters/enemies actually run up to each other to attack instead of remaining static -unlike previous Final Fantasy games

Each character has their own unique weapons -unlike previous Final Fantasy games

Characters have unique skills/abilities

Instead of learning spells by gaining levels, you must obtain and equip the items that allow the characters to use those spells.

Summons

Pre-rendered cinematics that blend in and out of in-game content, kicked off with a grand opening cinematic that ends in-game.

Most of the world is pre-industrial Europe style, except for one big industrilazied city and a few industrialized sections here and there across the world.

A small section is modeled after Japan.

An evil organization bent on world domination, which presents itself to the public as not trying to take over the world, that is undermined by a group dedicated to stopping them.

A spiky haired lead character that must be convinced by a member of the group opposed to the evil organization to help stop them.

One of the playable characters is a large/fat man who is full of 'tude, speaks with a unique slang that no one else in the game seems to, even those who live in the same environment as him... and it is obvious that he is an intentional racist stereotype.

Cross dressing

Animal riding

Train riding

An offensive ability named after a norse god.

The final boss is defeated after the game pauses mid-battle and you select a single finishing move from the battle menu, after which the final boss dissolves into white light.

After the final boss is defeated, the heroes struggle to escape the disintegrating dungeon.

Mini-games

Betting on winged animal races which are modeled after horse racing.

Serpent in a lake

There is a circus.

There is a play on a stage which the spiky haired lead character is a part of.

One of the main characters with long hair transforms into a big purple winged demon who floats in battle.

The big shocking twist in the game is when a main character is killed and the spiky haired lead hero holds them in his arms while kneeling.

The spiky haired lead character has one romantic interest part way through the game, but ends up growing closer to the long haired scantly clad woman instead and they share a moment together while sitting during the ending sequence, before noticing some of the other characters behind them.

One of the main characters turns out to not be who everyone thought he was and has an identity crisis, which the bad guy uses to try to sway him into joining his side.




When Square does it on a trendy console, it's "lid-blowing innovation!"

When Tengai Makyou does it years earlier on PC Engine, it's B-grade cloned shit."



Other PC Engine games developed through use of a time machine and un-innovative cloning:

In 1992 Tengai Makyou II copied its final boss, a large insect-like egg (which makes appearances throughout the game) from outer space that contains a two-form boss, the latter of which is a humanoid form, from 1995's Chrono Trigger. Tengai Makyou II also aped the famous cinematic intro of Magus' castle, by doing a much more impressive version for all of its major dungeons.

Anearth Fantasy Stories modeled its battles, in which large animated characters/enemies act out their attacks as they run back and forth along a horizontally scrolling background, after Tales of Phantasia which was released the week before. Anearth Fantasy Stories was less innovative though, because it uses a line scrolling effect on the floors, while ToP uses cutting edge static floors. Tales of Phantasia is also noteworthy for having voice samples in an RPG in 1995, something which PCE CD games had been copying in advance since 1989.

Quote from: Drakon on 10/11/2012, 07:28 PMChrono trigger is brilliant man, much better than ff7.

So are Ys I, II & IV and Tengai Makyou II & Kabukiden, let alone so many other PCE games. As I explained further above, it's not so much what Chrono Trigger and FFVII are, it's that their legacy had more of a negative impact as companies are motivated more by making money by appealing to the lowest common denominator than they are in creating quality or art. Michael Bay, Twilight, auto tune, dubstep, Honey Boo Boo, Katy Perry, Justin Bieber, etc are the kinds of examples SamIAm was talking about, that changed everything and were imitated because of how popular they are. My point is that popularity leading to imitation does not equal quality or groundbreaking. Something seemingly unoriginal can be great and something can be very innovative or original, yet terrible.

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/12/2012, 11:59 AMWhat can I say? I've been exploring the PCE library over the course of a few years now, and even though I certainly haven't beaten every last game, the only genre so far with more than one or two games that thoroughly amaze me is shooters.

See, that's the problem.  You're just now playing these games, and comparing them to ones you've loved and have been nostalgic about.  I really wonder how you would feel about these games if you actually did play them back when they were first released.  At the time it WAS something fresh and fairly new.

Quote from: CrackTiger on 10/14/2012, 05:25 PMWhat I meant was that Square put out a couple dumbed down RPGs for non-RPG fans and they became extremely popular and that led to RPGs in general being simplified further and further to appeal to as many people as possible.

I fail to see how FFVII is dumbed down.  Did you play Mystic Quest?  That's dumbed down.  FFIV?  Pretty simple. 

FFVIII isn't even dumbed down, really.  Neither was 9.

VIII just sucked alot of penis.

QuoteThere are so few slots for equipment, so few pieces of equipment, so few weapons overall and each character has is restricted to a single type, etc.

Each equipment has slots in it for Materia, which is more detailed than playing "find the latest thing for *insert slot here*" in the usual manner which is "Oh, new dungeon?  New equipment is inside!" or "New town!? BUY THE NEW GEAR!"

Each character isn't restricted to a single type.  FFVI has each character basically performing one thing.  I don't recall being able to use Blitz with Terra.

You can have Tifa be the healer, and have Cloud do nothing but nuke.   It won't stop you if that's how you want to hang.

Besides, going back a few years:

Every character is limited to one type in FFIV.  Kind of like most RPGs before and after it.  Dragon Warrior 2?  Ultima III? 

Lufia? 

You want really detailed, unique character actions, go play Knights of Legend or Wizards Crown or something.

QuoteFinal Fantasy is a management sim-style RPG among console RPGs.

...haha.aha...ahaaah... what?

QuoteWhen they nerfed that aspect by so much and made the new system so overly powerful that there isn't much to do with it (a couple tacked on enemies in the N.A. version that can survive past 2 turns is nice), it became sort of a Final Fantasy-lite game for beginners. It also shot for hollywood style storytelling, which game developers seem to model after lower tier b-movies. It doesn't matter how good or bad it is on its own, the impact it had led to RPGs becoming linear barely-interactive packages of entertainment.

Are you sure you played FFVII?  It sounds like you are talking about FFX, to be honest.

QuoteBoth FFVII and Chrono Trigger had so much potential, but were overly ambitious and seemed to have been kicked out the door before they wee ready. Chorno Trigger also relies heavily on a gimmicky system that is so unbalanced and overly powerful that you can't make use of its potential. But at least Chrono Trigger retained the sense of adventure that most great console/J-RPGs have. FFVII was a cart style game on discs and the opposite of Grandia, which came out at the same time. Grandia didn't even have much in the way of pre-rendered cinemas, but it managed to bring real art to like with its 3D and continued the quality of storytelling found in 16-bit CD RPGs with voice acting and expressive portraits. It is the ultimate tribute/celebration to adventure filled JRPGs, even as it actually offered something new with it battles.

FFVII tried something different with the story telling.  Alot of those voiceless cutscenes are pretty intense and exciting to watch.   Sephiroth standing in the fire is one of the most sinister shots ever. 

Who cares if there are no character portraits.  You don't need those to have a sense of what the characters are feeling.  Games do great without those all the time.   Wild Arms didn't have them.  Neither did Beyond the Beyond or Breath of Fire III.

It's just foo-foo-frilly nonsense.  It's nice if it's there, but it's hardly a necessary thing.

Also, the art in FFVII, including the sprawling world map, is pretty great.   It sounds like you're just dismissing the entire thing.

QuoteFFVII was also marketed by its cinemas alone and emphasized the sci-fi side. It was again the beginning of the heavy slide towards straight sci-fi and shunning of fantasy. Again, trying to ape hollywood style storytelling, where attempts to make an adaptation of anything fantastical more realistic, so that moviegoers will accept it, instead makes it embarrassingly unbelievable.

Beginning the slide towards straight Sci Fi?  FFVI had fucking robots called "Magitek".  You take a giant flying whale to the moon in FFIV.  What is your point?

FFVII had alot of non-scifi things to do once you leave Midgar.   Kalm isn't Sci Fi.  Nibelheim isn't either (at least at first), you climb mountains, you go into dungeons and caves.   You hit up Cosmo Canyon and run around like a Navajo warrior.  There's the entire city of the Ancients. 


Plus, FFVII had TONS of things to explore and find out about. 

In short: To say it dumbed things down and was FF-Lite is pretty retarded.

Quote from: geise on 10/15/2012, 09:23 AM

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/12/2012, 11:59 AMWhat can I say? I've been exploring the PCE library over the course of a few years now, and even though I certainly haven't beaten every last game, the only genre so far with more than one or two games that thoroughly amaze me is shooters.

See, that's the problem.  You're just now playing these games, and comparing them to ones you've loved and have been nostalgic about.  I really wonder how you would feel about these games if you actually did play them back when they were first released.  At the time it WAS something fresh and fairly new.

That's not the problem...many of us play a lot of these for the first time years latter.  Te real problem is closed minded fanboyism, and rose colored glasses.

Quote from: nectarsis on 10/15/2012, 11:22 AM

Quote from: geise on 10/15/2012, 09:23 AM

Quote from: SamIAm on 10/12/2012, 11:59 AMWhat can I say? I've been exploring the PCE library over the course of a few years now, and even though I certainly haven't beaten every last game, the only genre so far with more than one or two games that thoroughly amaze me is shooters.

See, that's the problem.  You're just now playing these games, and comparing them to ones you've loved and have been nostalgic about.  I really wonder how you would feel about these games if you actually did play them back when they were first released.  At the time it WAS something fresh and fairly new.

That's not the problem...many of us play a lot of these for the first time years latter.  Te real problem is closed minded fanboyism, and rose colored glasses.

I would say that it is a good mixture of both ;)

am I the only person who thinks chrono trigger is quality?  Sure it's not perfect but it's a great experience of a game.  And just another reminder I never liked ff7.  I agree with arkhan, mystic quest is f#cking RETARDED.  I want to clear mystic quest I really do but the battle system is so mind numbing I can never get through it.  I mean there's like no way to beat opponents quickly in that game.  I don't think ff7 is dumbed down, I just think the story in ff7 isn't gripping at all.

...speaking of dumbed down ff games I should probably check if someone fanslated ff4 easytype.

Anyway back in the day I was the hugest squaresoft fanboy thanks to ff4, ff6, secret of mana, chrono trigger, and even mario rpg.  I bought ff7 on pc right when it came out.  I was so disappointed with it.

Quote from: guest on 10/15/2012, 10:21 AMVIII just sucked alot of penis.

Yeah it does. I bought it for cheap not too long ago and I just can't get into it. Granted I'm still at the beginning of the game in the "training" cave but it is a huge battle just to keep from slipping into a coma.

Quote from: Drakon on 10/15/2012, 06:56 PMam I the only person who thinks chrono trigger is quality?

Not by a long shot. Well, in these forums, maybe. But after years of visiting here, I'm beginning to think the PCEFX forums represent an alternate universe where up is down and black is white.

Chrono Trigger is fucking sweet.  You get to control a frog paladin, a cave chick, a nympho inventor chick, and a semi-retarded Robot.

plus theres motorcycle races and time travel.

and lots of toriyama sweetness.

Quote from: Drakon on 10/15/2012, 06:56 PMam I the only person who thinks chrono trigger is quality?  Sure it's not perfect but it's a great experience of a game.  And just another reminder I never liked ff7.  I agree with arkhan, mystic quest is f#cking RETARDED.  I want to clear mystic quest I really do but the battle system is so mind numbing I can never get through it.  I mean there's like no way to beat opponents quickly in that game.  I don't think ff7 is dumbed down, I just think the story in ff7 isn't gripping at all.

...speaking of dumbed down ff games I should probably check if someone fanslated ff4 easytype.

Anyway back in the day I was the hugest squaresoft fanboy thanks to ff4, ff6, secret of mana, chrono trigger, and even mario rpg.  I bought ff7 on pc right when it came out.  I was so disappointed with it.

Exactly, unlike what narrow-minded people regurgitate from others, Chrono Trigger isn't a perfect game, but at least it's pretty original for a Square and SNES game. It just doesn't shame other games and that's a terrible way of looking at games in general that the media has been using for far too long.

Wasn't the SNES Final Fantasy II already easy enough?

I didn't say Mystic Quest was retarded.  I like Mystic Quest.  It's just very simplistic.  It's also very fun, and has an interesting take on RPG gameplay.   The dungeons are pretty fun, especially once you climb around with the claws.


I also like Chrono Trigger because the settings, music, story, characters, and overall experience are enjoyable and very memorable
 
So, I could care less how it compares to OTHER games.   It does a great job, and is exceptionally fun to play over and over. 

Hopefully that doesn't make me narrowminded or regurgitating someone elses words.

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/16/2012, 02:03 PMI didn't say Mystic Quest was retarded.  I like Mystic Quest.  It's just very simplistic.  It's also very fun, and has an interesting take on RPG gameplay.   The dungeons are pretty fun, especially once you climb around with the claws.


I also like Chrono Trigger because the settings, music, story, characters, and overall experience are enjoyable and very memorable
 
So, I could care less how it compares to OTHER games.   It does a great job, and is exceptionally fun to play over and over. 

Hopefully that doesn't make me narrowminded or regurgitating someone elses words.

Just the opposite, you had something quantifiable to say about the actual game. Not just "it's legendary", or talk about how popular it is, how many times it's been re-issued or how so many mags/sites or a particular internet personality says its so cool or how it ranks so many some lists or how because it's from this company or that console, of course it is special and better than anything on those other hunks of garbage.

I find too often that people who absorb opinions from others and champion popular consoles and games rarely talk why a game is good (and never how they're bad). They usually only say how something is simply "better" than the rest and there is no room for "different" or "also good" or opinions based on personal taste (if your taste isn't popular, then you're "a fanboy blinded by nostalgia").

Chrono Cross BLOWS AWAY Chrono Trigger... in the music department but nothing else.

Quote from: guest on 10/16/2012, 02:03 PMI didn't say Mystic Quest was retarded.  I like Mystic Quest.  It's just very simplistic.  It's also very fun, and has an interesting take on RPG gameplay.   The dungeons are pretty fun, especially once you climb around with the claws.


I also like Chrono Trigger because the settings, music, story, characters, and overall experience are enjoyable and very memorable
 
So, I could care less how it compares to OTHER games.   It does a great job, and is exceptionally fun to play over and over. 

Hopefully that doesn't make me narrowminded or regurgitating someone elses words.

I like both Chrono Trigger and Mystic Quest as well, though I never finished MQ.  I ran into a bug where the game just froze.  If I reloaded from my last save, I'd get the same lock up.  So I restarted the game and it locked up again at the same point (pretty far into the game).  I think I eventually gave the game to a friend so he could at least see what most of the game was like.  I'd like to get it again one of these days and actually finish it.

Chrono Trigger's strongest point is that it has really nice ambience.  It's the same reason Secret of Mana is so great.  The different places you go to all feel really, really unique.


Matango, for example in SOM.    Oh man it rules.

I had and completed Mystic Quest bitd. Say what you will about the game itself, however the music ROCKS!

i liked the game.  It had neat characters, was pretty fun townwise, and the dungeons were really awesome.

I liked the ice dungeon, and that stupid octopus you fight.   It was a solid game, and is unfairly bashed by toolbags.

What do you guys think was the best of the original handhelds?  (Including the Nomad...because I include the Nomad. >_>)

Dumb question there  :P

The Nomad and Turbo Express were the best things to ever happen to handhelds.

As much as I like the Turbo Express, there are some games on the original gameboy that I had a ton of fun with:

Final Fantasy Adventure
Sword of Hope
Kirby 1 and 2
Ultima
Gargoyles Quest


So, I would go with the gameboy.    The turbo express is a bit unfair to pick as the best since it uses the home library.   I put it in a class all by itself.   A very awesome class.

Handhelds that had a different library: Gameboy, all the way.   

Yeah the gameboy rocked when it came to handheld games, but I was wanting a bit more...like color.  It was awesome for me since I could use games I already owned.  Having a real 16-bit handheld was so mega awesome!  I understand why you think it's a bit unfair to pick, but it's still a handheld system. :)  Personally for me they were perfect, regardless of how many batteries I had to bring with me. :lol:

Yeah.  Overall today, I would pick the Express so I can play China Warrior while I'm crappin', but I grew up with my face pressed to a gameboy....

tilted properly under direct light, praying that I didn't move wrong so I could still see.


fuckin monochrome unbacklit retardation

Haha, yeah technology of the times.  It's still that way with the damn psp and other newer handhelds,  but better than in the early days.  I remember when I got my Atari Lynx.  I had to do the same thing to get the screen brightness "just right".  OLED is the way to do it now.  God damn I love my Vita and GP2X Wiz.

Mystic Quest was the first game I bought for my SNES. I was unaware that it was meant to be an introductory RPG. I was like "wow - here's some other Final Fantasy game for $20 less than Final Fantasy II!" It was a fun ride, but I can't think of a less demanding game. Every gamer experiences the exact same thing. No thought, exploration, or character customization required. The only problem solving I remember was a pillar in some dungeon that had to be pushed around to make a bridge before going to the upper level. That stumped me for twenty minutes.

Mystic Quest was easy, but it was still fun, and alot of the monsters looked cool

and the music was great.     I liked the volcano parts of the game alot too, and the huge dinosaur.

Order of greatness

1: SFC/SNES
2: PCE
3: NEO GEO


distance

4: Megadrive





SFC haters you have failed, suck my balls.

Never really cared for Secret of Mana.  It didn't control as well as, say, Zelda, Neutopia, Golevllius, Golden Axe Warrior, Crusader of Centy etc.

Quote from: HardcoreOtaku on 10/17/2012, 07:11 PMSFC haters you have failed

No

Quote from: HardcoreOtaku on 10/17/2012, 07:11 PMsuck my balls.

No thanks

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/17/2012, 11:49 PMNever really cared for Secret of Mana.  It didn't control as well as, say, Zelda, Neutopia, Golevllius, Golden Axe Warrior, Crusader of Centy etc.

I agree with the touchy control on secret of mana, but overall i think the game was incredible. I'm on par with you with the rest of the games as well, except for crusader of Centy. That game has terrible control. I tried to like it, i really did. Great graphics, sound, animation, terrible control.

Quote from: guest on 10/17/2012, 06:45 PMMystic Quest was easy, but it was still fun, and alot of the monsters looked cool

and the music was great.     I liked the volcano parts of the game alot too, and the huge dinosaur.

Completely agree, it may not have been as tough as the main final fantasy games, but it was a very fun distraction.

Quote from: HardcoreOtaku on 10/17/2012, 07:11 PMSFC haters you have failed, suck my balls.

I like the SNES, I just don't like the RPG exclusives. They're like a one-trick pony... doing a trick I don't like.

Quote from: HercTNT on 10/18/2012, 01:10 AM

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/17/2012, 06:45 PMMystic Quest was easy, but it was still fun, and alot of the monsters looked cool and the music was great.     I liked the volcano parts of the game alot too, and the huge dinosaur.

Completely agree, it may not have been as tough as the main final fantasy games, but it was a very fun distraction.

I enjoyed Mystic Quest, but it was one of the least demanding games I've ever played.

I first played FF Mystic Quest in like, 2nd grade (whatever year it came out). 

But I had already beat FF2.

So I thought it was easy, but I also thought it was awesome.

Secret of Mana though, fuck yeah.  I love that game.   It's better than Zelda as far as atmosphere goes.   Sure it controls kind of retarded sometimes, but man, Matango + Flammie + basically the entire game.



I also liked 7th Saga and Illusion of Gaia alot.

Quote from: HardcoreOtaku on 10/17/2012, 07:11 PMOrder of greatness

1: SFC/SNES
2: PCE
3: NEO GEO


distance

4: Megadrive





SFC haters you have failed, suck my balls.

The Neo Geo only has 1.3 RPGs, which places it far behind the other libraries for me.

I haven't really played any RPGs myself since the mid-nineties (there was a period then that's all I played) but the SNES is God like in the RPG stakes.

http://youtu.be/sglKS-HfZMw&list=ELe1yR1P_4clw&t=1m28s

Quote from: HardcoreOtaku on 10/18/2012, 05:55 PMI haven't really played any RPGs myself since the mid-nineties (there was a period then that's all I played) but the SNES is God like in the RPG stakes.

http://youtu.be/sglKS-HfZMw&list=ELe1yR1P_4clw&t=1m28s

Yes, it's true that the SNES was more popular outside of Japan.

Quote from: guest on 10/18/2012, 06:09 PM

Quote from: HardcoreOtaku on 10/18/2012, 05:55 PMI haven't really played any RPGs myself since the mid-nineties (there was a period then that's all I played) but the SNES is God like in the RPG stakes.

http://youtu.be/sglKS-HfZMw&list=ELe1yR1P_4clw&t=1m28s

Yes, it's true that the SNES was more popular outside of Japan.

yes and inside Japan too buy a long way only beaten by the eerrr Famicom.

Yes the PC Engine managed second place in Japan but there was a huge gap between it and the first place Super Famicom or Famicom.

Quote from: HardcoreOtaku on 10/18/2012, 05:55 PMbut the SNES is God like in the [dumbed-down J]RPG stakes.

Fixed!

Quotehttp://youtu.be/sglKS-HfZMw&list=ELe1yR1P_4clw&t=1m28s

Interesting video. The history of influences is fairly accurate, but the comparisons are bullshit. Saying that western RPGs were declining because SNES ports of Wizardry V and Ultima VII sold poorly compared to new exclusives like Chrono Trigger is a bunch of malarkey. They were ports. Of old games. Made for a completely different kind of platform AND medium. I'd like to see what that list of best-selling games would look like if it included PC titles and not just home consoles.

Computer ports in the 16-bit era were really fish out of water. Even with the SNES mouse, the interface for games like Eye of the Beholder and MMIII is completely butchered. The SNES mouse isn't particularly fast or responsive. Games like Ultima played well on computers because they were designed for a keyboard with dozens of different shortcuts and the ability to type questions rather than select them. Also, the process of converting code and porting games tends to be uncreative and boring, so ports are typically assigned to newer or less talented programmers who are less likely to do a good job (see Ultima V NES).

Computer games are/were a completely different medium, especially in the early Nineties. They were designed to be played by individuals sitting at desks in empty rooms with near-field monitors, cutting-edge graphics, flexible input devices, and maybe a CD-ROM. Console games were designed with more instant gratification in mind. They were demoed in toy stores. They were played casually on the couch with one-size-fits-all hardware and a shitty TV with scan lines and a greater likelihood of friends or onlookers being present.

The fact is, console ports of Western RPG's declined because they didn't fit the medium, not because JRPG's are superior. The "rise" of JRPGs was really just console game publishers learning that they could sell more units if they threw out half of the RPG experience (rules, statistics, customization, and problem solving) and replaced it with elements everyone could enjoy - cinema, a linear plot, and flashy spells.

Finally, the video saying that Western RPGs were statistic heavy because their fanbase was made up of technicians isn't really accurate; they were stat-heavy because Dungeons and Dragons was stat-heavy.

Secret of mana is broken in a really fun way.  Just run around casting attack spells and level them up.  Also your characters will level up faster that way since you kill enemies quickly.  Only thing that sucks about secret of mana is that stupid final boss.  A: It took me forever to beat that boss, B: A giant flammie is lame.

Illusion of gaia I could never clear.  I made it pretty far in that game on a rent when it was new but now I just get bored and play some classic square snes / famicom stuff instead.

I love the snes rpgs.  I also love the snes action games.  And starfox, which is like an action game (doesn't feel like a shmup).  And....stunt race fx!  To me the snes is the ultimate rpg machine.

Okay lesse my favourite rpgs are (in no order)

ff3 (famicom)
earthbound zero (famicom)
earthbound (snes)
ff4 snes
ff6 snes
secret of mana snes
(zelda link to the past I don't think counts)
chrono trigger snes

So if these games are all "dumbed down" then I guess I love the dumbed down ones?  I love flashy spells, just as long as they don't take forever.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/17/2012, 11:49 PMNever really cared for Secret of Mana.  It didn't control as well as, say, Zelda, Neutopia, Golevllius, Golden Axe Warrior, Crusader of Centy etc.

Flammie isn't lame.

You're lame.

QuoteSo if these games are all "dumbed down" then I guess I love the dumbed down ones?  I love flashy spells, just as long as they don't take forever.

What I was talking about, is how Chrono Trigger and FFVII are noob friendly, streamlined and have nothing to use your skills against, compared to previous Square games such as those you listed. One of the negative influences FFVII had on future games is the ridiculous unskippable camera shots and in-battle cinematics. A regular fight can have a full minute of time wasted on non-gameplay.

Quote from: CrackTiger on 10/19/2012, 12:31 PMWhat I was talking about, is how Chrono Trigger and FFVII are noob friendly, streamlined and have nothing to use your skills against, compared to previous Square games such as those you listed.

Final Fantasy IV is easy too.  You literally just level grind and magically get all of the stuff for said characters.  Past that, if you can't figure out how to play each character to kill stuff, you're probably retarded.

The game is linear as all hell.  At least Chrono Trigger has a bunch of things you can go wander around and do, and multiple endings.

FFVII has more extra content in it than FFIV has actual content probably.  

QuoteOne of the negative influences FFVII had on future games is the ridiculous unskippable camera shots and in-battle cinematics. A regular fight can have a full minute of time wasted on non-gameplay.

Would you rather they had super quick swings and such like the old games?   Why even run all the way to the enemy!  Just swing in place.  We can't waste any time trying to make the battles look cool.

If you're pressed for time and that impatient, you shouldn't play RPGs.


Granted, they often now allow you to skip the cutscenes in battles.  



It sounds like you just don't like that FFVII is the RPG that made RPGs go mainstream, and you are trying to pick reasons why that are justifiable.   The things you gripe about (save the cutscene), were already occurring in RPGs.  You just aren't acknowledging them.

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/19/2012, 01:21 PMWould you rather they had super quick swings and such like the old games?   Why even run all the way to the enemy!  Just swing in place.  We can't waste any time trying to make the battles look cool.

If you're pressed for time and that impatient, you shouldn't play RPGs.

That's pretty stupid, even for you.  Watching the same 15 second battle animation hundreds of times is not at all 'cool'.

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/19/2012, 01:21 PMIt sounds like you just don't like that FFVII is the RPG that made RPGs go mainstream...

So they were still niche and unloved on the SNES?  Get real.

Quote from: NecroPhile on 10/19/2012, 01:56 PMThat's pretty stupid, even for you.  Watching the same 15 second battle animation hundreds of times is not at all 'cool'.

Errr, There's nothing stupid about it.

FFS, The only battle animations that take forever are the summons.   Knights of the Round is the worst.  However, it's an optional summon.  You don't even have to go get it.  Once you do have it, you barely need to even cast it. If you pick to use its overpoweredness, you already know and are committing to watching it. 

Save it for the last boss, or for Jenova Synthesis/Bizzaro Sephiroth for some hilarious 1 hit kills.   If you look at it that way, using the lengthy summon actually saves you time, because you cast it one time and win!  You don't have to do an entire boss battle! You just watch one summon animation, and win!  Efficiency!

Most of the summons are pretty unneeded in general in the game.  Final Attack-Phoenix is probably the only useful summon combo.  The rest are just for shits and giggles, and pretty graphics.

Aside from that, I don't think Cloud running over and hitting an enemy is really that stressful to sit through.  Spells aren't long at all, and most times, by the time you've selected your next characters action for the turn, the first characters thing has already been cast, and resolved itself.   The game has active battles.  Shit happens while you're poking around the menu picking stuff.

You've played FFVII, right?

The limit breaks aren't long either, except maybe the end game ones that you barely even use anyways.  Even those are pretty short.  I think I used Omnislash one time, and it was when they told me I had to at the end of the game.

For that matter, I don't recall using ANY of the limit breaks "hundreds of times".  You also don't fight the same bosses over and over so you'd never see the same special attack animations from any of them hundreds of times either.

Also, the game must not be that long and drawn out, because i was able to sit through and finish the entire game again one time in a 3 day timespan. 

You ever play a modern RPG that lets you skip through the battle animations?   It looks retarded.  I did that with Hyperdimension Neptunia and mostly laughed at how dumb battles looked because everything jerked around alot.

QuoteSo they were still niche and unloved on the SNES?  Get real.

Uh, I didn't say that.  They certainly weren't mainstream on the SNES either.

FFVII is when people who didn't normally play RPGs started noticing RPGs and going OH MAN OH MAN OH MAN.   FFVII!!!!!!    Do you know how many people I went to school with that would play FFVII but wouldn't touch anything on SNES that had Final Fantasy in the title?   

The perspective, graphics, cutscenes, and story of VII is what tipped the scales.  Sure Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Lufia, and FF3(6) set it all up, but VII is when it took off.


At least, thats how it was around here.  I dunno what it was like in Nebraskastan. 

Man, when it comes to long cutscenes in rpg's I would say Grandia 2 takes the cake.  Very cool the first time, but man those spells and other tactic fighting moves get old quick.  BTW I love the Grandia series.

The ones in Grandia were cool too though.   I think you could skip them, though.   Since that was the PS2 era and all.

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/19/2012, 02:16 PMErrr, There's nothing stupid about it.

No doubt about it - it's dumb to tell people not to play RPGs at all if they prefer quick battles.

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/19/2012, 02:16 PMBattle animations are awesome, and you're playing the game wrong if you don't like 'em.

Sure, chief.  Whatever you say.  I just pray the battle animations are even longer and more numerous in forthcoming remakes, then the game will be really good.

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/19/2012, 02:16 PMUh, I didn't say that.  They certainly weren't mainstream on the SNES either.

I meant unloved by the masses (which should've been obvious from the context), and the opposite of mainstream is indeed 'niche' or 'unloved by the masses'. 

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/19/2012, 02:16 PMFFVII is when people who didn't normally play RPGs started noticing RPGs and going OH MAN OH MAN OH MAN.   FFVII!!!!!!    Do you know how many people I went to school with that would play FFVII but wouldn't touch anything on SNES that had Final Fantasy in the title?   

The perspective, graphics, cutscenes, and story of VII is what tipped the scales.  Sure Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Lufia, and FF3(6) set it all up, but VII is when it took off.


At least, thats how it was around here.  I dunno what it was like in Nebraskastan. 

I suspect it was about the same amongst nine year olds, but not so much amongst adults.  Perhaps we were too busy throwing it on the ground or attempting to determine who is and who isn't a cell phone.

Quote from: NecroPhile on 10/19/2012, 01:56 PMSo they were still niche and unloved on the SNES?  Get real.

The RPG explosion was kind of incremental. FFIII (6) and Chronotrigger certainly popularized the genre, but the SNES itself was still kid's stuff. Since the Playstation was the console made video gaming mainstream, it's easy to argue that FFVII made RPG's mainstream.

Well my first rpg was ff4 which I played when I was 11.  I got to the last dungeon then had to return it to my friend.  I dunno if this's a dumbed down one or not.

FF7 has....fmvs.....annoying playstation polygons.......a story that was as exciting as a decent movie, and a theme with too much zazz.

Quote from: guest on 10/19/2012, 12:31 PM

QuoteSo if these games are all "dumbed down" then I guess I love the dumbed down ones?  I love flashy spells, just as long as they don't take forever.

What I was talking about, is how Chrono Trigger and FFVII are noob friendly, streamlined and have nothing to use your skills against, compared to previous Square games such as those you listed. One of the negative influences FFVII had on future games is the ridiculous unskippable camera shots and in-battle cinematics. A regular fight can have a full minute of time wasted on non-gameplay.

Quote from: NecroPhile on 10/19/2012, 05:44 PMNo doubt about it - it's dumb to tell people not to play RPGs at all if they prefer quick battles.

If you say so.  If you think the battles in a game like FFVII are long, go play Knights of Legend or Eternal Dagger and get back to me on that.  RPGs are never really quick about anything, and aren't for impatient people.

QuoteSure, chief.  Whatever you say.  I just pray the battle animations are even longer and more numerous in forthcoming remakes, then the game will be really good.

So you prefer the guys just stand in place and do nothing, or maybe just fling their arm a little?  All for the sake of getting it done fast?

Or how about FF1 where giant swords just appear in front of the enemies!  Yeah, that looks great.  swords as big as the characters floating in front of them.

Final Fantasy wasn't even the first game to have the characters ACTUALLY run up and attack enemies.  FF was still having the guys stand around like retards when that concept appeared.

Did you even play FFVII?  The battle animations are quick, as I've already mentioned.  Aside from the summons which are obvious eye candy because the PS1 could do it.  They're also optional.  You don't have to use them.  I've completed FFVII without using a single summon spell.

also, the animations go on WHILE you are using the menus.   So, what is the big deal?  Are you pausing the game during battles after everything you pick?

"OH DANG.  CLOUD FINISHED HIS ATTACK JUST AS I FINISHED SELECTING TIFAS.  THAT'S BULLSHIT.  HE SHOULD'VE FINISHED BEFORE I EVEN GOT INTO HER MAGIC MENU! THIS IS TAKING TOO LONG, FUCK!"

plus the new FFVII remake is great. 

QuoteI meant unloved by the masses (which should've been obvious from the context), and the opposite of mainstream is indeed 'niche' or 'unloved by the masses'. 

Doesn't have to be opposite.  It can be somewhere between the two.  That should be obvious.

QuoteI suspect it was about the same amongst nine year olds, but not so much amongst adults.  Perhaps we were too busy throwing it on the ground or attempting to determine who is and who isn't a cell phone.

My adult relatives who also played games were all about it too, and I'd venture to guess they are older than you, and some of them had never played an RPG before.

I love most rpg's. does not matter if the characters move or not. graphics don't matter as much as gameplay and story. play dungeon crawl or nethack and you will see.

The quicker the battles, the better. That said, I do like good graphics on the backgrounds, enemies and characters. A long, drawn out animation of a particular attack might be cool the first 2 or 3 times but it gets old after a while. I hated fighting the zombies in Phantasy Star because it'd take them forever to drop their jaw and attack compared to other monsters. I don't really have all day and I want to get to the end of the maze to get that little trinket I need. Also if I grind, I want my grinding to go as fast as possible. That's why nobody grinds on enemies that give them 2exp and instead go for the ones that give them 240exp or so. Time does matter.  What I hate even more is when a game doesn't let me take my time to make my battle selections and the enemies just keep attacking again and again as I fudge through the clumsy menu system.

In the case of FFVII, I would like to see some actual examples of battle animations that take too long, and are done too often.

The really flashy shit hardly happens unless you're retarded and cast Knights of the Round with every character, in every battle.

Grinding was fairly fast in the game.  The load times often take longer than the battles themselves, especially once you have *overpoweredspell*+All Materia and can wipe the field with one spell cast.

Like you pointed out, Joe, the zombie thing in Phantasy Star is annoying.  That alone is probably worse than anything FF7 was doing.

My only complaint about FFVII is watching Sephiroth use that stupid nova attack.  How many times can you blow up every planet, really?

I can't personally complain about FF7's battles because I haven't played it in forever. I just played Chrono Cross and some of those battles were pretty long. Not because of all of the animations (which they definitely had), but because some of the enemies seemed to take forever to defeat.

(https://web.archive.org/web/20090304082001im_/http://www.bomb-omb.com/images/neo-geo-hotdog.JPG)
(http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/okarola/neogeo_ad_2.jpg)

lol that last ad.

Looks like hes fuckin humping the controller.

holding the joy-stick like this, must be hard to bring some good score on the screen.

Quote from: VestCunt on 10/19/2012, 06:35 PMThe RPG explosion was kind of incremental. FFIII (6) and Chronotrigger certainly popularized the genre, but the SNES itself was still kid's stuff. Since the Playstation was the console made video gaming mainstream, it's easy to argue that FFVII made RPG's mainstream.

I'd buy that it took Final Fantasy mainstream, but not the entire genre.  Outside of FF VII, VIII, and IX (which sold progressively fewer copies), no other RPG titles sold any better than those on the SNES.

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/21/2012, 11:06 PMlol that last ad.

Looks like hes fuckin humping the controller.

Even better, the boss looks like his (mutilated) wang.

Quote from: NecroPhile on 10/22/2012, 01:41 PM

Quote from: VestCunt on 10/19/2012, 06:35 PMThe RPG explosion was kind of incremental. FFIII (6) and Chronotrigger certainly popularized the genre, but the SNES itself was still kid's stuff. Since the Playstation was the console made video gaming mainstream, it's easy to argue that FFVII made RPG's mainstream.

I'd buy that it took Final Fantasy mainstream, but not the entire genre.  Outside of FF VII, VIII, and IX (which sold progressively fewer copies), no other RPG titles sold any better than those on the SNES.

I dunno man.  The stuff after FFVII was more noticed than the stuff before for the most part.  Xenogears, Legend of Legaia, Star Ocean 2, Lunar 1 & 2 remakes...

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/22/2012, 01:53 PMI dunno man.  The stuff after FFVII was more noticed than the stuff before for the most part.  Xenogears, Legend of Legaia, Star Ocean 2, Lunar 1 & 2 remakes...

And all of those sold around a million copies, a feat equaled (or bettered) by at least a dozen SNES RPGs.

But maybe they were noticed more - at least in the media or with better sales in the US and lesser sales in Japan (to explain the relatively low totals).

Yeah, I think there was a definite RPG boom after FF7. Absolutely.

Remember Jade Cocoon?  and LEGEND OF DRAGOOOOOM!

that stuff was wild.

I don't remember any magazines but Nintendo Power having RPGs on the front covers until after PS1, but to be fair I only got Nintendo Power and GamePro, lol.

Ha! Actually, I was going to cite Legend of Dragoon as an example. According to Wikipedia (which is NEVER wrong), it sold nearly a million copies in the US alone.

I loved the "simpler" rpgs before rpgs were mainstream.

yeah, hipster JRPGs FTW!!

w00t!

Quote from: Tatsujin on 10/22/2012, 11:28 PMyeah, hipster JRPGs FTW!!

Quote from: Drakon on 10/22/2012, 10:24 PMI loved the "simpler" rpgs before rpgs were mainstream.

I liked RPGs before FFX.   FFX is what fuckin turned RPGs into a retard fest. 

FOLLOW THE BLINKY DOT.  HURRRRR ALL THE DUNGEONS ARE STRAIGHT LINES

HUHUHUHUHUHRRRRRRRR

Yeah I agree ffx is not fun in any way.  Some dude lent me ffx and I got bored in x (10) minutes of playing.

Quote

Quote from: Drakon on 10/22/2012, 10:24 PMI loved the "simpler" rpgs before rpgs were mainstream.

I liked RPGs before FFX.   FFX is what f*ckin turned RPGs into a retard fest. 

FOLLOW THE BLINKY DOT.  HURRRRR ALL THE DUNGEONS ARE STRAIGHT LINES

HUHUHUHUHUHRRRRRRRR