My Console is better than your Console, let the flame war begin (again)

[geise]

SamIAm, I think your opinion would be different if you would have played most pc-e/turbo rpg's before any Square/Enix games clouded your mind on what a jrpg "should" be.

[SamIAm]

HercTNT, the shooters are awesome, man. That's what I was saying. PCE shooters were so good and so plentiful, it's practically a whole movement unto itself in the shooter genre. I'm ragging on the other stuff.

I fail to see how all the excellent arcade ports,

There aren't that many of them, and they hardly contribute to a strong presence in any particular genre for the PCE. Besides, what are a few ports without some sweet exclusives? This ain't the X68000.

Seriously, you consider the Ys games B grade?

The gameplay, yes.

You consider Dracula X B grade?

Notice I said "almost all". This is one of a small number of non-shooter exceptions.

Valis 1?

Valis embodies the console to me. Cutting edge CD sound and cutscenes, nice sprites and colors, plus all the anime you can stomach. But the gameplay design? The stage design? It's fairly conservative stuff, to put it nicely.

The sign of a really great game...or performer or movie or album... is when it made everything before it obsolete, and everything after it bore its mark. Blame it on lack of console sales if you want to, but I don't see that happening very much on the PCE, especially in terms of gameplay design.

Here's a question I'd be happy to have someone school me on: Are there any exclusive, non-shooter PCE games out there that were so good that others cloned their gameplay designs? Like all those SMB3 clones? Sequels on other systems don't count.

[CrackTiger]

The notion that games should fit pre-determined genres is one of the worst things to ever happen to games. The PCE's strongest asset is how many original non-cookie cutter games it has.

Nintendo is one of the worst companies for putting out clones. SMB3 itself is a clone.

Making everything before it obselete and having everything after bear its mark only happens with shallow trendy pop art. Great things remain great and don't cancel out other great things that come before or after. That's how you measure their greatness. You just described "flavour of the month" gaming. If that's what you're into, that's fine. But the rest of us enjoy a great variety of games because of the games themselves, not their popularity.

SamIAm, I think your opinion would be different if you would have played most pc-e/turbo rpg's before any Square/Enix games clouded your mind on what a jrpg "should" be.

I think thay everyone's opinions of what they truly enjoy would be different if they never discussed games with others and were never exposed to the media.

[SamIAm]

I'll take that as a no.

[HercTNT]

I'll take that as a no.

Fair point, but arguing innovation is a really tough thing. Are you only considering games that were released in the us or japan as well?  Faceball was very innovative. Obvisously games had been around for along time anyways, so most games released by everybody were not truly innovative. That also depends on what you consider innovative. Are we talking gameplay, graphics, sound, control, or all of the above? Gunstar heroes has very innovative graphics and effects on the sega, but the gameplay has been done before. How about the cd addon for the turbo and its animated cutscenes? is that innovative? Just some food for thought.

[CrackTiger]

I'll take that as a no.

WOW.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Here's a question I'd be happy to have someone school me on: Are there any exclusive, non-shooter PCE games out there that were so good that others cloned their gameplay designs? Like all those SMB3 clones? Sequels on other systems don't count.

The rest of your post is too foolish to bother with, but I'll try this one.  Besides the obvious titles like Bomberman '93/'94 and Dracula X, there's Sherlock Holmes, which set the standard for the slew of FMV games to come, and Tengai Makyou Ziria, which was the first title to bring story lines to life with extensive cut scenes and voice acting.

[geise]

Ok here's one.      

AI - CHO ANIKI

Wait...shooter...damn it!  

Oh, JJ and Jeff!


Wait. What are we talking about again?

[VestCunt]

Damn, Sam, you're doing some serious trolling.

the PCE was only ever on the cutting edge of gaming in one genre, and that's console shooters.

The problem is that you're limiting your criteria to strictly gameplay, as if that's the only defining factor in a genre. The PCE broke ground in many areas.
-----
Shooters: we all agree here.

Fighters: Between Fighting Street and the Neo ports, the PCE wins. We may laugh about Fighting Street, but the PCECD was the first home console capable of even attempting a tournament fighter. When the genre finally exploded on the SNES two years later, the PCE had no trouble raising the ante. The Neo ports smoked everything on the SNES until Killer instinct came out in '95. Also, in a genre that consists almost entirely of arcade ports, I don't know why you criticize the PCE's lack of exclusives (Kabuki Itouryodan? Flash Hiders?).

Music: If you're looking at the gameplay in Ys, you're kind of missing the point. Ys didn't get unprecedented "10's" in magazine reviews because it was a sweet Hydlide clone, it got 10's because it was the first time that video game music was absolutely fucking awesome, orchestrated, dramatic, emotional shit. It was the first time video gaming sounded cool. Years later, video gamers finally ceased to be labeled as dorks as they could listen to Dead Kennedys while playing Tony Hawk.

FMV: for better or worse, the TGCD did it first.

JRPGs: 3-way tie. While Sega was upping the Mega Power and mixing sci-fi and fantasy and Square was refining their battle system, Cosmic Fantasy 2 followed Final Fantasy IV as "RPG of the year" for pioneering little things like an immersive plot, good voice acting, and character development. FFVII, MGS, and all of those memorable characters in Playstation games wouldn't have been the same without it. EDIT: also, like NecroPhile pointed out, Tengai Makyou Ziria really raised the bar in terms of production, cut scenes, and celebrities.

Platformers: the gameplay is elementary, but Bonk was first 16-bit mascot done right.

Party games and Multiplayers: the TG is criminally under-appreciated in this department simply because it wasn't very well known in the U.S., but we have to remember that the TurboTap preceded the Four Score. While the NES introduced a mixed bag of compatible games in 1990-91, the TG already had Dungeon Explorer, some good sports games, the first five-player Bomberman before the NES even had three-player Bomberman.

[PCEngineHell]

Here's a question I'd be happy to have someone school me on: Are there any exclusive, non-shooter PCE games out there that were so good that others cloned their gameplay designs? Like all those SMB3 clones? Sequels on other systems don't count.

To be honest this is setting up a almost near retarded expectation considering the fact that the different stuff for Atari, computers like the MSX,  the Master System/Sega Mark III, and the Nes were all out prior and kind of laid out all the basic groundwork for everything else done. I mean lets face it, hold this same standard against the Snes or Genesis and you are going to get the same results, just a few titles here or there. Everything else copies off of work done on the prior machines. Most everything on all of the 16-bit systems can point back to everything released prior to them, in action, rpg, adventure, driving, sports, etc. What really matters is how things improved across the board as time went. All the 16 bit systems found ways to improve on the work done prior for prior systems, and they all had their strong points and weak points.

edit:
Contra 3 copies off of Contra and Super C, and to some extent Ikari Warriors
Super Castlevania 4 copies off of Castlevania
Super Mario Worlds basic gameplay elements were all taken from prior Marios.
Final Fantasy later titles all evolved from prior RPG work on Nes and elsewhere
F-Zero? Go talk to Victory Run, Outrun, Al Unser Jr.'s Turbo Racing, and every other racer before it. All F-Zero added was fluff, via mode 7, and a warm soundtrack.
Star Fox? What about Silpheed?
I could keep going, but there is no point.

[Tatsujin]

Yeah, claiming that the pce lacks in innovation and and has nothing more to offer than cutting edge shooting games is total crack sausage.

The PCE brought innovations and cutting edge technologies more than almost any other system ever did above the 8-Bit generation.

Not that this matters alone, but the result out of this were games that weren't even doable on a SNES, which came out more than 3 years later. And we all know that 3 years is a huge gap in the video game timeline. Especially around later 80s/early 90s, were games changed drastically.

In the very beginning, the PCE formed the perfect bridge between the 8 and 16-bit era, hence earlier games tended to look and play simpler, although R-Type already busted that image quickly of the screen. Hella, already Kung Fu did show the finger to the rest.
So it catched up fast with new innovations and games, that disassociated itself from the real 8-bit era. Gorgeous arcadeish action, colors & gameplay finally came to reality within ones own four private walls.
Followed up with a CD-ROM add-on even before Sega could place its Mega Drive in the market.
Which again allowed games that were not possible the same way on competitive systems until the beginning of the 90s.
Also it had "Sega" games that looked much better than segas own in-house production on the MD. Or many other games that were released on both platforms, even snes included.

One thing is for certain, the PCE was ahead of its time. And that was mostly accomplished through innovations (hardware and software).

[nectarsis]

Yeah, claiming that the pce lacks in innovation and and has nothing more to offer than cutting edge shooting games is total crack sausage.

Sig worthy ;) LOL

[Sadler]

Yeah, claiming that the pce lacks in innovation and and has nothing more to offer than cutting edge shooting games is total crack sausage.

The PCE brought innovations and cutting edge technologies more than almost any other system ever did above the 8-Bit generation.

Not that this matters alone, but the result out of this were games that weren't even doable on a SNES, which came out more than 3 years later. And we all know that 3 years is a huge gap in the video game timeline. Especially around later 80s/early 90s, were games changed drastically.

In the very beginning, the PCE formed the perfect bridge between the 8 and 16-bit era, hence earlier games tended to look and play simpler, although R-Type already busted that image quickly of the screen. Hella, already Kung Fu did show the finger to the rest.
So it catched up fast with new innovations and games, that disassociated itself from the real 8-bit era. Gorgeous arcadeish action, colors & gameplay finally came to reality within ones own four private walls.
Followed up with a CD-ROM add-on even before Sega could place its Mega Drive in the market.
Which again allowed games that were not possible the same way on competitive systems until the beginning of the 90s.
Also it had "Sega" games that looked much better than segas own in-house production on the MD. Or many other games that were released on both platforms, even snes included.

One thing is for certain, the PCE was ahead of its time. And that was mostly accomplished through innovations (hardware and software).

Well said!  

[geise]

I would take Emerald Dragon on PC-E over any other version.  Especially over the SNES/SFC version.

[Arkhan Asylum]

The MSX version is quite good as well, Geise.

I am torn between those two.

[SamIAm]

Damn, Sam, you're doing some serious trolling.

You may have noticed that I enjoy a good argument.

The whole thing about whether or not there are clones wasn't supposed to be the crux of what I'm saying. It's just an example I used to look for a really innovative PCE game.

Sticking voices and cutscenes into a PCE-CD game is a totally obvious thing to do when you're given the format. But the power-ups in Gunhed and Spriggan? The enemies and pacing in Soldier Blade? The terrain layouts in Lords of Thunder? Those took real creative genius, and they were unparalleled regardless of the hardware. That's what "cutting edge" means to me. Even if they weren't exactly cloned, you can still find their influence in games after them.

That's why I'm rarely impressed by some of the "innovations" everyone makes a big deal out of in PCE-CD games. Of course, you can do some brilliant writing, performance, and animation in CD cutscenes and implement them in really creative ways, but that's far from always being the case on the PCE. Most of it is completely generic anime fluff that hardly works as more than garnish. Then you look at the actual gameplay-side of these (ahem) games, and you see that it's often obsolete and/or seriously flawed somehow.

When it comes to RPGs, Ys and Tengai Makyo have exceptional cutscenes and decent storytelling overall, but even they are little stale on the gameplay-side. How good the actual stories are is a whole other debate that I'd rather not get into, but suffice to say that I don't think they actually beat everybody else.

I'll give it to you that fighters do all right on the PCE if you have the arcade card. I also admit that I don't play the genre enough to know how well the exclusives hold up today.

Anyway, at the end of the day, if a person who likes retro games asks me about the PCE, I'm going to tell him that if he likes shooters, he should get one because PCE shooters are fuckin' awesome. But otherwise, I'll heartily recommend a modest number of other individual titles, and it will start going downhill from there.

Just being honest.

[Arkhan Asylum]

You realize the original Ys game is a PC-98 game, so the PCE one is like WHOADAMN awesome in comparison, while retaining what made the game work.


If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

I've come to the conclusion that Sam is wearing bias goggles and is confusing good game design with being an innovator.  Case in point: SMB3 isn't at all innovative.  It's loved for having a fair difficulty level, well executed level design, and nicely drawn sprites and backgrounds, not for doing something different.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I dunno, it had some pretty innovative things, like sliding on your ass to hit all the goombas!!!!!


SMB3 was tits.  Its still great.    I love the fuckin frog suit.   I used to see how many levels I could flail through in that thing.   I once used it on one of the ships.  What a pain in the dick that was.

[Drakon]

If you clear the airship with a frog suite the king gives you a special message.

I dunno, it had some pretty innovative things, like sliding on your ass to hit all the goombas!!!!!


SMB3 was tits.  Its still great.    I love the fuckin frog suit.   I used to see how many levels I could flail through in that thing.   I once used it on one of the ships.  What a pain in the dick that was.

[Joe Redifer]

SMB3 was tits.  Its still great.

FUCK YOU!  Super Mario World destroys that shit!  IT HAD FUCKING YOSHI!  So you can take your Super Mario Bros 3 with its 8-bit graphics and 8 bit sounds AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS because Super Mario World has 16-bit graphics, 16-bit soundz and 16-bit gameplay and 16-bit Yoshi and 16-bit controls.

[PCEngineHell]

SMB3 was tits.  Its still great.

FUCK YOU!  Super Mario World destroys that shit!  IT HAD FUCKING YOSHI!  So you can take your Super Mario Bros 3 with its 8-bit graphics and 8 bit sounds AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS because Super Mario World has 16-bit graphics, 16-bit soundz and 16-bit gameplay and 16-bit Yoshi and 16-bit controls.

No, fuck you, and fuck Baltimore too.

[VestCunt]

You may have noticed that I enjoy a good argument.

I know. I do too! 

The whole thing about whether or not there are clones wasn't supposed to be the crux of what I'm saying. It's just an example I used to look for a really innovative PCE game.

OK, I don't care about your biased console recommendations and you need to stop changing your argument. Why don't you just say that you were wrong, rather than retreating and narrowing your criteria? You're not actually looking for cutting-edge innovations because you're discounting them all. Now you're apparently looking for gameplay innovations that were flawlessly executed in otherwise perfect games on the first attempt.  Such instances are exceedingly rare. Nintendo has been very fortunate to have several cases: SMB (revolutionized platformers and forever decided which button jumps), SM3, Zelda 1, and Super Mario Kart. The NES also had Square and Enix onboard for two RPG breakthroughs: 1) Dragon Warrior created the JRPG format by dumbing down the D&D-style rules Wizardry was using and breaking away from the non-linear Ultima style that required too much thinking for casual gamers, and 2) Final Fantasy took the rules-lite DW format and added an enjoyable battle interface. Otherwise, most innovations came earlier, like Professorson said.

Even with the absurd innovation + shocking new gameplay improvements + flawless game argument you've backed yourself into, the PCE still wins on both shooters and multiplayer party games, but I guess Dungeon Explorer and Bomberman don't count because they don't have "Mario" in the title.

Going back to your original charges about the PCE not being innovative, here's why you're dead wrong:
1) A lot more goes into a video game than just gameplay.
2) Unpopular games can be every bit as innovative and influential as blockbusters.
 
Just because fighting games weren't up to snuff when Hudson ported a stinker like Fighting Street doesn't mean it wasn't a breakthrough. Just because the music in Ys was slapped on an older game doesn't mean it didn't revolutionize game music. Just because FMV gameplay sucked doesn't mean Sherlock was less innovative than Blazing Lazers. As for the ACD fighters, console fighting games are all ports anyway. So please, stick to your point about cutting-edge games, not exclusives. (How many good fighting exclusives did the SNES have? Seriously.)

I also take issue with writing off the PCE's achievements in the realm of RPG's as a happy accident that came with the CD format. If you read the interviews, Hudson was a very unique environment. They were tight-knit, operated like a family, took chances, and had a very off-beat approach to game design and marketing. It was no accident that they choose to partner with NEC or that NEC happened to have the most affordable CD technology and Hudson had the guts to use it. Calling the first hundred-hour RPGs with cut scenes, decent acting, memorable characters, and small movie budgets "fluff" just because the gameplay wasn't new is a bunch of bullshit. The PCE was pumping out 2-D equivalents of Final Fantasy VII back when we were opening our free copies of Dragon Warrior from Nintendo Power. Innovative enough for you?

[SamIAm]

I know. I do too! 

Good.

You're not actually looking for cutting-edge innovations because you're discounting them all. Now you're apparently looking for gameplay innovations that were flawlessly executed in otherwise perfect games on the first attempt. 

Where did I say first attempt? I listed Gunhed, Soldier Blade and Lords of Thunder, and each of these are obviously stepping stones, particularly Soldier Blade. You're trying to pin the entirety of my argument on examples that aren't conclusions and inferences that aren't actually there.

The point I made in the very first paragraph of my first post a couple of pages ago is: A great many PCE shooters were fresh, thoroughly high-quality and helped move the genre a big step forward, while every other PCE genre struggled. This is true even if you look at only the exclusives. Other PCE games didn't exist in a void, but they had far less impact due to good design, and often far more weaknesses.

The PCE got a lot of firsts, thanks in a big way to things like its CD drive. Firsts are neat, especially when done well, but they don't make an awesome game. I'm sure you know that. While there is more to a game than gameplay, gameplay is the most crucial thing, and PCE RPGs are mostly stale on that front. Sorry, nice try, B+.

Don't confuse the cutting edge of technology or music or whatever else with the cutting edge of games. Ys has incredible music? Well Lords of Thunder has incredible everything, especially gameplay, and it's not alone.

Calling the first hundred-hour RPGs with cut scenes, decent acting, memorable characters, and small movie budgets "fluff" just because the gameplay wasn't new is a bunch of bullshit. The PCE was pumping out 2-D equivalents of Final Fantasy VII back when we were opening our free copies of Dragon Warrior from Nintendo Power. Innovative enough for you?

That's ridiculous. FFVII didn't just have FMVs, it blew the lid off nearly every aspect of RPG design. Is it even necessary to list them? Tengai Makyo without the little cutscenes every hour or so is not much more than a long Dragon Quest clone with a shitty menu system.

Even with the absurd innovation + shocking new gameplay improvements + flawless game argument you've backed yourself into, the PCE still wins on both shooters and multiplayer party games, but I guess Dungeon Explorer and Bomberman don't count because they don't have "Mario" in the title.

I'm reading Dungeon Explorer, Bomberman, and from your earlier post, some number of sports games. This alone makes the PCE into a great party game system? A little credit is due, but that's all. If it makes you happy, Dungeon Explorer is on my short list of non-shooters I'd immediately urge anybody to try.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

I stand corrected, Sam isn't just biased - he's a straight up troll and/or moron.

[CrackTiger]

I still don't have time to address so many contradictive arguments, but here's a few quick points.

SamIAm, have you actually played through Ys IV and TM Fuun Kabuki Den? It sounds like you're judging the entire TM/FEOE series based on some short play time with Ziria only. Its the PCE tha has RPGs in a higher league than the SNES. Its true that the SNES has more SNES style RPGs, due to them being stuck on the SNES hardware and carts. But PCE CD RPGs actually give you a reason to play through them.

Kabukiden is the ultimate anti-cart RPG. Every dungeon and map has unique art. It is a Final Fantasy  IV style TM game that really drives home the difference the CD format makes for RPGs. Square ditched Nintendo because they saw what the PCE CD-ROM did for RPGs and they copied Kabukiden by actually having characters run up to each other to attack.

Chrono Trigger and FFVII were two of the worst things to happen to JRPGs. They dumbed things down to the point of deserving a sub genre and were so popular that developers continued to kill JRPGs to the point that you now have the characters play themselves in battle and dungeon map consist of straight hallways.

Ignorant people like to trash the PCE Ys games because they don't understand the ramming battle gameplay and think its too simple, only because they've been brainwashed into thinking that you need to hit a button to swing a sword if a character has one im a non-Nintendo game. Nevermind that Twilight Princess battles consist of shaking your fists a few times and you're done. But there isn't even much ramning action in Ys II and IV, as people who have played them know. All that well designed stuff mentioned about particular games is exactly what Ys IV and Kabukiden are full of.

[Arkhan Asylum]

FFVII were two of the worst things to happen to JRPGs. They dumbed things down to the point of deserving a sub genre and were so popular that developers continued to kill JRPGs to the point that you now have the characters play themselves in battle and dungeon map consist of straight hallways.

Err....

How was FFVII a bad thing?  Nothing was dumbed down in that game.  Once you were dumped out of Midgar, things got crazy.    The dungeons weren't linear (A few were, like Nibelheim Mountain, but its a trail up a mountain.  Duhrr).

and, Materia is still probably the best character development system ever put into an RPG.


There are so many side-things you can discover in FFVII, that I hardly see how that game was a bad thing.

I think you meant to type VIII. 

[VestCunt]

Don't confuse the cutting edge of technology or music or whatever else with the cutting edge of games.

Your argument basically comes down to: "Fighting Street, Ys, all PCE RPGs, the Neo ports, FMV games and Bonk weren't cutting edge because I don't like them enough."

I'm reading Dungeon Explorer, Bomberman, and from your earlier post, some number of sports games. This alone makes the PCE into a great party game system? A little credit is due, but that's all. If it makes you happy, Dungeon Explorer is on my short list of non-shooters I'd immediately urge anybody to try.

WTF. You know you're desperate when you're calling DE a shooter. Arcade run n' gun maybe, but however you define the genre, it's still a multiplayer party game. Also, you just changed your argument again. Now innovations + perfect games aren't enough, the games also have to define the system. Well, if the PCE doesn't have enough party games for you, that's your problem. The fact is DE and Bomberman are PERFECT and the PCE did them first. If you had four people in your living room in 1989, you could play Dungeon Explorer. The NES and Genesis didn't even have fucking multitaps yet. Gauntlet 2 and the Four-score were still a year away. 3-player Bomberman 2 was two years away and 5-player TG Bomberman preceded that too.

[Sadler]

I'm reading Dungeon Explorer, Bomberman, and from your earlier post, some number of sports games. This alone makes the PCE into a great party game system? A little credit is due, but that's all. If it makes you happy, Dungeon Explorer is on my short list of non-shooters I'd immediately urge anybody to try.

WTF. You know you're desperate when you're calling DE a shooter. Arcade run n' gun maybe, but however you define the genre, it's still a multiplayer party game.

To be fair, he called Dungeon Explorer a non-shooter.

[VestCunt]

That's ridiculous. FFVII didn't just have FMVs, it blew the lid off nearly every aspect of RPG design. Is it even necessary to list them? Tengai Makyo without the little cutscenes every hour or so is not much more than a long Dragon Quest clone with a shitty menu system.

OK, fine, Tengai Makyo is a Dragon Warrior clone. It's also a perfect one. According to you, when PCE clones of Astro Warrior add new elements, they're "innovative stepping stones", but when perfect DW clones make breakthroughs, it's "fluff." What I'm saying is that the PCE RPGs you hate so much were the stepping stones between Dragon Warrior and FFVII. Stupid as it is, FFVII wasn't created in a vacuum. If it hadn't been for Tengai Makyo, Cosmic Fantasy, Lucienne's Quest, and a bunch of shitty FMV games, FFVII wouldn't "blown the top off" anything.

Personally, I can play a JRPG once in a while, but I don't really like PCE JRPGs OR SNES ones. The difference between me and you is that I can appreciate the technical innovations of a well-crafted game whether or not I like it. The more we talk, the more I seem to be talking to a Squaresoft fanboy. Tell me, was your first console a SNES or a Playstation?

[Drakon]

Chrono Trigger and FFVII were two of the worst things to happen to JRPGs. They dumbed things down to the point of deserving a sub genre and were so popular that developers continued to kill JRPGs to the point that you now have the characters play themselves in battle and dungeon map consist of straight hallways.

Chrono trigger is brilliant man, much better than ff7.

[Mathius]

Chrono Trigger and FFVII were two of the worst things to happen to JRPGs. They dumbed things down to the point of deserving a sub genre and were so popular that developers continued to kill JRPGs to the point that you now have the characters play themselves in battle and dungeon map consist of straight hallways.

Chrono trigger is brilliant man, much better than ff7.

For what it's worth I like the dumbing down of maze-filled maps in JRPGs. Nothing irritates me more than pointless mazes.

[Joe Redifer]

I liked Chrono Trigger (playing through it again right now, actually) but I did not care for Final Fantasy 7.  I got bored pretty fast and just stopped playing, eventually selling my copy.  Chrono Trigger, for the most part, is pretty balanced.  It's not perfect, mind you.  Some of your objectives are ambiguous at best.  I'm not a big fan of mazes, either. I hate coming up to a path that splits 96 different ways. Then they each come to a split which also splits 96 different ways.  I have to explore each and every one of them otherwise I'll always feel like I'm missing something and it takes forever.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Alot of older games have nonsensical dungeons.

Windy/intricate for the sake of making the dungeon last longer.

[Tatsujin]

Into the dungeon.

[Arkhan Asylum]

of DICKS.

[SamIAm]

If believing that the better stuff coming out of Squaresoft in the early-mid 90's was great makes me a fanboy, then I guess I'm a fanboy. Frankly, I think having to argue why they're good is like having to argue why The Beatles or Spielberg is good. I guess Indiana Jones is the worst thing to happen to cinema, eh Black Tiger? Maybe you don't think so, but I'm sure someone does.

...and no, Squaresoft/SNES RPGs are definitely not the only ones I enjoy.

So if you think PCE RPGs are the bomb, that's fine, but I'm just not feeling it. Neither are most Japanese gamers if the sales numbers of the Tengai Makyo re-releases are any indication.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they're rotten. There are a few I honestly haven't even looked at, and I've had good wholesome fun with Ys and Xanadu, too. It's just that from what I've seen, they're not the best of their time, too much value is placed on their voices/cutscenes, and the games themselves can have any number of very significant problems. Most of them just aren't A-list material.

All my opinion, of course.

Oh, and vestcunt, you could cut every FMV out of FFVII and it would still be balanced, fun, and nearly just as revolutionary. Furthermore, the FMVs themselves have almost nothing in common with PCE cutscenes whether you're looking at creation technique, content, or their usage in-game.

Also, just for the record, I think Square went off the deep end with FFVIII.

What can I say? I've been exploring the PCE library over the course of a few years now, and even though I certainly haven't beaten every last game, the only genre so far with more than one or two games that thoroughly amaze me is shooters.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I think your perception of RPGs on the PCE is going to be skewed because you can't read the text/understand the stories.

Of course you won't be too concerned with a cutscene you can't understand.


I suggest you check out games like Outlive, Necromancer, Anearth, La Valeur, and the LOH games.

The reason Tengai doesn't get rereleases is probably because it never really had a following in the western world.


It also has a running joke making fun of round eye.


You are sorely missing out on some great games though.   Sindibad is another solid RPG.  The Wizardry games are great too. 

[Drakon]

Yeah I never liked ff7 either.

I liked Chrono Trigger (playing through it again right now, actually) but I did not care for Final Fantasy 7.  I got bored pretty fast and just stopped playing, eventually selling my copy.

Me too.  My favourite square games starts with ff3 for the famicom and ends with super mario rpg.

If believing that the better stuff coming out of Squaresoft in the early-mid 90's was great makes me a fanboy, then I guess I'm a fanboy.

[VestCunt]

If believing that the better stuff coming out of Squaresoft in the early-mid 90's was great makes me a fanboy, then I guess I'm a fanboy.

Me too!

[CrackTiger]

FFVII were two of the worst things to happen to JRPGs. They dumbed things down to the point of deserving a sub genre and were so popular that developers continued to kill JRPGs to the point that you now have the characters play themselves in battle and dungeon map consist of straight hallways.

Err....

How was FFVII a bad thing?  Nothing was dumbed down in that game.  Once you were dumped out of Midgar, things got crazy.    The dungeons weren't linear (A few were, like Nibelheim Mountain, but its a trail up a mountain.  Duhrr).

and, Materia is still probably the best character development system ever put into an RPG.


There are so many side-things you can discover in FFVII, that I hardly see how that game was a bad thing.

I think you meant to type VIII.  

What I meant was that Square put out a couple dumbed down RPGs for non-RPG fans and they became extremely popular and that led to RPGs in general being simplified further and further to appeal to as many people as possible. I am a fan of FFVII, bought it on launch day and played it to death, tracked down a copy of the PC version as soon as I got my first PC and played it to death. Because I love RPGs, I appreciate FFVII for what it is, even if I would have ranked it below most console RPGs up to that point. I was very disappointed the first time I played it, that everything had been simplified to such a degree from FFVI/FFIII. There are so few slots for equipment, so few pieces of equipment, so few weapons overall and each character has is restricted to a single type, etc. Final Fantasy is a management sim-style RPG among console RPGs. When they nerfed that aspect by so much and made the new system so overly powerful that there isn't much to do with it (a couple tacked on enemies in the N.A. version that can survive past 2 turns is nice), it became sort of a Final Fantasy-lite game for beginners. It also shot for hollywood style storytelling, which game developers seem to model after lower tier b-movies. It doesn't matter how good or bad it is on its own, the impact it had led to RPGs becoming linear barely-interactive packages of entertainment.

Both FFVII and Chrono Trigger had so much potential, but were overly ambitious and seemed to have been kicked out the door before they wee ready. Chorno Trigger also relies heavily on a gimmicky system that is so unbalanced and overly powerful that you can't make use of its potential. But at least Chrono Trigger retained the sense of adventure that most great console/J-RPGs have. FFVII was a cart style game on discs and the opposite of Grandia, which came out at the same time. Grandia didn't even have much in the way of pre-rendered cinemas, but it managed to bring real art to like with its 3D and continued the quality of storytelling found in 16-bit CD RPGs with voice acting and expressive portraits. It is the ultimate tribute/celebration to adventure filled JRPGs, even as it actually offered something new with it battles.

FFVII was also marketed by its cinemas alone and emphasized the sci-fi side. It was again the beginning of the heavy slide towards straight sci-fi and shunning of fantasy. Again, trying to ape hollywood style storytelling, where attempts to make an adaptation of anything fantastical more realistic, so that moviegoers will accept it, instead makes it embarrassingly unbelievable.



Anyway, Kabukiden was clearly developed with the use of a time machine, as it owes so much of its design to the lid-blowing innovation of FFVII from four years in the future.

SPOILER ALERT!









Tengai Makyou Fuun Kabuki Den 1993 / Final Fantasy VII 1997


3 party members -unlike previous Final Fantasy games

Characters/enemies actually run up to each other to attack instead of remaining static -unlike previous Final Fantasy games

Each character has their own unique weapons -unlike previous Final Fantasy games

Characters have unique skills/abilities

Instead of learning spells by gaining levels, you must obtain and equip the items that allow the characters to use those spells.

Summons

Pre-rendered cinematics that blend in and out of in-game content, kicked off with a grand opening cinematic that ends in-game.

Most of the world is pre-industrial Europe style, except for one big industrilazied city and a few industrialized sections here and there across the world.

A small section is modeled after Japan.

An evil organization bent on world domination, which presents itself to the public as not trying to take over the world, that is undermined by a group dedicated to stopping them.

A spiky haired lead character that must be convinced by a member of the group opposed to the evil organization to help stop them.

One of the playable characters is a large/fat man who is full of 'tude, speaks with a unique slang that no one else in the game seems to, even those who live in the same environment as him... and it is obvious that he is an intentional racist stereotype.

Cross dressing

Animal riding

Train riding

An offensive ability named after a norse god.

The final boss is defeated after the game pauses mid-battle and you select a single finishing move from the battle menu, after which the final boss dissolves into white light.

After the final boss is defeated, the heroes struggle to escape the disintegrating dungeon.

Mini-games

Betting on winged animal races which are modeled after horse racing.

Serpent in a lake

There is a circus.

There is a play on a stage which the spiky haired lead character is a part of.

One of the main characters with long hair transforms into a big purple winged demon who floats in battle.

The big shocking twist in the game is when a main character is killed and the spiky haired lead hero holds them in his arms while kneeling.

The spiky haired lead character has one romantic interest part way through the game, but ends up growing closer to the long haired scantly clad woman instead and they share a moment together while sitting during the ending sequence, before noticing some of the other characters behind them.

One of the main characters turns out to not be who everyone thought he was and has an identity crisis, which the bad guy uses to try to sway him into joining his side.




When Square does it on a trendy console, it's "lid-blowing innovation!"

When Tengai Makyou does it years earlier on PC Engine, it's B-grade cloned shit."



Other PC Engine games developed through use of a time machine and un-innovative cloning:

In 1992 Tengai Makyou II copied its final boss, a large insect-like egg (which makes appearances throughout the game) from outer space that contains a two-form boss, the latter of which is a humanoid form, from 1995's Chrono Trigger. Tengai Makyou II also aped the famous cinematic intro of Magus' castle, by doing a much more impressive version for all of its major dungeons.

Anearth Fantasy Stories modeled its battles, in which large animated characters/enemies act out their attacks as they run back and forth along a horizontally scrolling background, after Tales of Phantasia which was released the week before. Anearth Fantasy Stories was less innovative though, because it uses a line scrolling effect on the floors, while ToP uses cutting edge static floors. Tales of Phantasia is also noteworthy for having voice samples in an RPG in 1995, something which PCE CD games had been copying in advance since 1989.

Chrono trigger is brilliant man, much better than ff7.

So are Ys I, II & IV and Tengai Makyou II & Kabukiden, let alone so many other PCE games. As I explained further above, it's not so much what Chrono Trigger and FFVII are, it's that their legacy had more of a negative impact as companies are motivated more by making money by appealing to the lowest common denominator than they are in creating quality or art. Michael Bay, Twilight, auto tune, dubstep, Honey Boo Boo, Katy Perry, Justin Bieber, etc are the kinds of examples SamIAm was talking about, that changed everything and were imitated because of how popular they are. My point is that popularity leading to imitation does not equal quality or groundbreaking. Something seemingly unoriginal can be great and something can be very innovative or original, yet terrible.

[geise]

What can I say? I've been exploring the PCE library over the course of a few years now, and even though I certainly haven't beaten every last game, the only genre so far with more than one or two games that thoroughly amaze me is shooters.

See, that's the problem.  You're just now playing these games, and comparing them to ones you've loved and have been nostalgic about.  I really wonder how you would feel about these games if you actually did play them back when they were first released.  At the time it WAS something fresh and fairly new.

[Arkhan Asylum]

What I meant was that Square put out a couple dumbed down RPGs for non-RPG fans and they became extremely popular and that led to RPGs in general being simplified further and further to appeal to as many people as possible.

I fail to see how FFVII is dumbed down.  Did you play Mystic Quest?  That's dumbed down.  FFIV?  Pretty simple. 

FFVIII isn't even dumbed down, really.  Neither was 9.

VIII just sucked alot of penis.

There are so few slots for equipment, so few pieces of equipment, so few weapons overall and each character has is restricted to a single type, etc.

Each equipment has slots in it for Materia, which is more detailed than playing "find the latest thing for *insert slot here*" in the usual manner which is "Oh, new dungeon?  New equipment is inside!" or "New town!? BUY THE NEW GEAR!"

Each character isn't restricted to a single type.  FFVI has each character basically performing one thing.  I don't recall being able to use Blitz with Terra.

You can have Tifa be the healer, and have Cloud do nothing but nuke.   It won't stop you if that's how you want to hang.

Besides, going back a few years:

Every character is limited to one type in FFIV.  Kind of like most RPGs before and after it.  Dragon Warrior 2?  Ultima III? 

Lufia? 

You want really detailed, unique character actions, go play Knights of Legend or Wizards Crown or something.

Final Fantasy is a management sim-style RPG among console RPGs.

...haha.aha...ahaaah... what?

When they nerfed that aspect by so much and made the new system so overly powerful that there isn't much to do with it (a couple tacked on enemies in the N.A. version that can survive past 2 turns is nice), it became sort of a Final Fantasy-lite game for beginners. It also shot for hollywood style storytelling, which game developers seem to model after lower tier b-movies. It doesn't matter how good or bad it is on its own, the impact it had led to RPGs becoming linear barely-interactive packages of entertainment.

Are you sure you played FFVII?  It sounds like you are talking about FFX, to be honest.

Both FFVII and Chrono Trigger had so much potential, but were overly ambitious and seemed to have been kicked out the door before they wee ready. Chorno Trigger also relies heavily on a gimmicky system that is so unbalanced and overly powerful that you can't make use of its potential. But at least Chrono Trigger retained the sense of adventure that most great console/J-RPGs have. FFVII was a cart style game on discs and the opposite of Grandia, which came out at the same time. Grandia didn't even have much in the way of pre-rendered cinemas, but it managed to bring real art to like with its 3D and continued the quality of storytelling found in 16-bit CD RPGs with voice acting and expressive portraits. It is the ultimate tribute/celebration to adventure filled JRPGs, even as it actually offered something new with it battles.

FFVII tried something different with the story telling.  Alot of those voiceless cutscenes are pretty intense and exciting to watch.   Sephiroth standing in the fire is one of the most sinister shots ever. 

Who cares if there are no character portraits.  You don't need those to have a sense of what the characters are feeling.  Games do great without those all the time.   Wild Arms didn't have them.  Neither did Beyond the Beyond or Breath of Fire III.

It's just foo-foo-frilly nonsense.  It's nice if it's there, but it's hardly a necessary thing.

Also, the art in FFVII, including the sprawling world map, is pretty great.   It sounds like you're just dismissing the entire thing.

FFVII was also marketed by its cinemas alone and emphasized the sci-fi side. It was again the beginning of the heavy slide towards straight sci-fi and shunning of fantasy. Again, trying to ape hollywood style storytelling, where attempts to make an adaptation of anything fantastical more realistic, so that moviegoers will accept it, instead makes it embarrassingly unbelievable.

Beginning the slide towards straight Sci Fi?  FFVI had fucking robots called "Magitek".  You take a giant flying whale to the moon in FFIV.  What is your point?

FFVII had alot of non-scifi things to do once you leave Midgar.   Kalm isn't Sci Fi.  Nibelheim isn't either (at least at first), you climb mountains, you go into dungeons and caves.   You hit up Cosmo Canyon and run around like a Navajo warrior.  There's the entire city of the Ancients. 


Plus, FFVII had TONS of things to explore and find out about. 

In short: To say it dumbed things down and was FF-Lite is pretty retarded.

[nectarsis]

What can I say? I've been exploring the PCE library over the course of a few years now, and even though I certainly haven't beaten every last game, the only genre so far with more than one or two games that thoroughly amaze me is shooters.

See, that's the problem.  You're just now playing these games, and comparing them to ones you've loved and have been nostalgic about.  I really wonder how you would feel about these games if you actually did play them back when they were first released.  At the time it WAS something fresh and fairly new.

That's not the problem...many of us play a lot of these for the first time years latter.  Te real problem is closed minded fanboyism, and rose colored glasses.

[Tatsujin]

What can I say? I've been exploring the PCE library over the course of a few years now, and even though I certainly haven't beaten every last game, the only genre so far with more than one or two games that thoroughly amaze me is shooters.

See, that's the problem.  You're just now playing these games, and comparing them to ones you've loved and have been nostalgic about.  I really wonder how you would feel about these games if you actually did play them back when they were first released.  At the time it WAS something fresh and fairly new.

That's not the problem...many of us play a lot of these for the first time years latter.  Te real problem is closed minded fanboyism, and rose colored glasses.

I would say that it is a good mixture of both ;)

[Drakon]

am I the only person who thinks chrono trigger is quality?  Sure it's not perfect but it's a great experience of a game.  And just another reminder I never liked ff7.  I agree with arkhan, mystic quest is f#cking RETARDED.  I want to clear mystic quest I really do but the battle system is so mind numbing I can never get through it.  I mean there's like no way to beat opponents quickly in that game.  I don't think ff7 is dumbed down, I just think the story in ff7 isn't gripping at all.

...speaking of dumbed down ff games I should probably check if someone fanslated ff4 easytype.

Anyway back in the day I was the hugest squaresoft fanboy thanks to ff4, ff6, secret of mana, chrono trigger, and even mario rpg.  I bought ff7 on pc right when it came out.  I was so disappointed with it.

[Joe Redifer]

VIII just sucked alot of penis.

Yeah it does. I bought it for cheap not too long ago and I just can't get into it. Granted I'm still at the beginning of the game in the "training" cave but it is a huge battle just to keep from slipping into a coma.

[jlued686]

am I the only person who thinks chrono trigger is quality?

Not by a long shot. Well, in these forums, maybe. But after years of visiting here, I'm beginning to think the PCEFX forums represent an alternate universe where up is down and black is white.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Chrono Trigger is fucking sweet.  You get to control a frog paladin, a cave chick, a nympho inventor chick, and a semi-retarded Robot.

plus theres motorcycle races and time travel.

[Tatsujin]

and lots of toriyama sweetness.