My Console is better than your Console, let the flame war begin (again)

[CrackTiger]

am I the only person who thinks chrono trigger is quality?  Sure it's not perfect but it's a great experience of a game.  And just another reminder I never liked ff7.  I agree with arkhan, mystic quest is f#cking RETARDED.  I want to clear mystic quest I really do but the battle system is so mind numbing I can never get through it.  I mean there's like no way to beat opponents quickly in that game.  I don't think ff7 is dumbed down, I just think the story in ff7 isn't gripping at all.

...speaking of dumbed down ff games I should probably check if someone fanslated ff4 easytype.

Anyway back in the day I was the hugest squaresoft fanboy thanks to ff4, ff6, secret of mana, chrono trigger, and even mario rpg.  I bought ff7 on pc right when it came out.  I was so disappointed with it.

Exactly, unlike what narrow-minded people regurgitate from others, Chrono Trigger isn't a perfect game, but at least it's pretty original for a Square and SNES game. It just doesn't shame other games and that's a terrible way of looking at games in general that the media has been using for far too long.

Wasn't the SNES Final Fantasy II already easy enough?

[Arkhan Asylum]

I didn't say Mystic Quest was retarded.  I like Mystic Quest.  It's just very simplistic.  It's also very fun, and has an interesting take on RPG gameplay.   The dungeons are pretty fun, especially once you climb around with the claws.


I also like Chrono Trigger because the settings, music, story, characters, and overall experience are enjoyable and very memorable
 
So, I could care less how it compares to OTHER games.   It does a great job, and is exceptionally fun to play over and over. 

Hopefully that doesn't make me narrowminded or regurgitating someone elses words.

[CrackTiger]

I didn't say Mystic Quest was retarded.  I like Mystic Quest.  It's just very simplistic.  It's also very fun, and has an interesting take on RPG gameplay.   The dungeons are pretty fun, especially once you climb around with the claws.


I also like Chrono Trigger because the settings, music, story, characters, and overall experience are enjoyable and very memorable
 
So, I could care less how it compares to OTHER games.   It does a great job, and is exceptionally fun to play over and over. 

Hopefully that doesn't make me narrowminded or regurgitating someone elses words.

Just the opposite, you had something quantifiable to say about the actual game. Not just "it's legendary", or talk about how popular it is, how many times it's been re-issued or how so many mags/sites or a particular internet personality says its so cool or how it ranks so many some lists or how because it's from this company or that console, of course it is special and better than anything on those other hunks of garbage.

I find too often that people who absorb opinions from others and champion popular consoles and games rarely talk why a game is good (and never how they're bad). They usually only say how something is simply "better" than the rest and there is no room for "different" or "also good" or opinions based on personal taste (if your taste isn't popular, then you're "a fanboy blinded by nostalgia").

[Joe Redifer]

Chrono Cross BLOWS AWAY Chrono Trigger... in the music department but nothing else.

[roflmao]

I didn't say Mystic Quest was retarded.  I like Mystic Quest.  It's just very simplistic.  It's also very fun, and has an interesting take on RPG gameplay.   The dungeons are pretty fun, especially once you climb around with the claws.


I also like Chrono Trigger because the settings, music, story, characters, and overall experience are enjoyable and very memorable
 
So, I could care less how it compares to OTHER games.   It does a great job, and is exceptionally fun to play over and over. 

Hopefully that doesn't make me narrowminded or regurgitating someone elses words.

I like both Chrono Trigger and Mystic Quest as well, though I never finished MQ.  I ran into a bug where the game just froze.  If I reloaded from my last save, I'd get the same lock up.  So I restarted the game and it locked up again at the same point (pretty far into the game).  I think I eventually gave the game to a friend so he could at least see what most of the game was like.  I'd like to get it again one of these days and actually finish it.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Chrono Trigger's strongest point is that it has really nice ambience.  It's the same reason Secret of Mana is so great.  The different places you go to all feel really, really unique.


Matango, for example in SOM.    Oh man it rules.

[Mathius]

I had and completed Mystic Quest bitd. Say what you will about the game itself, however the music ROCKS!

[Arkhan Asylum]

i liked the game.  It had neat characters, was pretty fun townwise, and the dungeons were really awesome.

I liked the ice dungeon, and that stupid octopus you fight.   It was a solid game, and is unfairly bashed by toolbags.

[VenomMacbeth]

What do you guys think was the best of the original handhelds?  (Including the Nomad...because I include the Nomad. >_>)

[Tatsujin]

Dumb question there 

[geise]

The Nomad and Turbo Express were the best things to ever happen to handhelds.

[Arkhan Asylum]

As much as I like the Turbo Express, there are some games on the original gameboy that I had a ton of fun with:

Final Fantasy Adventure
Sword of Hope
Kirby 1 and 2
Ultima
Gargoyles Quest


So, I would go with the gameboy.    The turbo express is a bit unfair to pick as the best since it uses the home library.   I put it in a class all by itself.   A very awesome class.

Handhelds that had a different library: Gameboy, all the way.   

[geise]

Yeah the gameboy rocked when it came to handheld games, but I was wanting a bit more...like color.  It was awesome for me since I could use games I already owned.  Having a real 16-bit handheld was so mega awesome!  I understand why you think it's a bit unfair to pick, but it's still a handheld system.  Personally for me they were perfect, regardless of how many batteries I had to bring with me.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Yeah.  Overall today, I would pick the Express so I can play China Warrior while I'm crappin', but I grew up with my face pressed to a gameboy....

tilted properly under direct light, praying that I didn't move wrong so I could still see.


fuckin monochrome unbacklit retardation

[geise]

Haha, yeah technology of the times.  It's still that way with the damn psp and other newer handhelds,  but better than in the early days.  I remember when I got my Atari Lynx.  I had to do the same thing to get the screen brightness "just right".  OLED is the way to do it now.  God damn I love my Vita and GP2X Wiz.

[VestCunt]

Mystic Quest was the first game I bought for my SNES. I was unaware that it was meant to be an introductory RPG. I was like "wow - here's some other Final Fantasy game for $20 less than Final Fantasy II!" It was a fun ride, but I can't think of a less demanding game. Every gamer experiences the exact same thing. No thought, exploration, or character customization required. The only problem solving I remember was a pillar in some dungeon that had to be pushed around to make a bridge before going to the upper level. That stumped me for twenty minutes.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Mystic Quest was easy, but it was still fun, and alot of the monsters looked cool

and the music was great.     I liked the volcano parts of the game alot too, and the huge dinosaur.

[Otaking]

Order of greatness

1: SFC/SNES
2: PCE
3: NEO GEO


distance

4: Megadrive





SFC haters you have failed, suck my balls.

[Joe Redifer]

Never really cared for Secret of Mana.  It didn't control as well as, say, Zelda, Neutopia, Golevllius, Golden Axe Warrior, Crusader of Centy etc.

[Tatsujin]

SFC haters you have failed

No

suck my balls.

No thanks

[HercTNT]

Never really cared for Secret of Mana.  It didn't control as well as, say, Zelda, Neutopia, Golevllius, Golden Axe Warrior, Crusader of Centy etc.

I agree with the touchy control on secret of mana, but overall i think the game was incredible. I'm on par with you with the rest of the games as well, except for crusader of Centy. That game has terrible control. I tried to like it, i really did. Great graphics, sound, animation, terrible control.

Mystic Quest was easy, but it was still fun, and alot of the monsters looked cool

and the music was great.     I liked the volcano parts of the game alot too, and the huge dinosaur.

Completely agree, it may not have been as tough as the main final fantasy games, but it was a very fun distraction.

[VestCunt]

SFC haters you have failed, suck my balls.

I like the SNES, I just don't like the RPG exclusives. They're like a one-trick pony... doing a trick I don't like.

Mystic Quest was easy, but it was still fun, and alot of the monsters looked cool and the music was great.     I liked the volcano parts of the game alot too, and the huge dinosaur.

Completely agree, it may not have been as tough as the main final fantasy games, but it was a very fun distraction.

I enjoyed Mystic Quest, but it was one of the least demanding games I've ever played.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I first played FF Mystic Quest in like, 2nd grade (whatever year it came out). 

But I had already beat FF2.

So I thought it was easy, but I also thought it was awesome.

Secret of Mana though, fuck yeah.  I love that game.   It's better than Zelda as far as atmosphere goes.   Sure it controls kind of retarded sometimes, but man, Matango + Flammie + basically the entire game.



I also liked 7th Saga and Illusion of Gaia alot.

[CrackTiger]

Order of greatness

1: SFC/SNES
2: PCE
3: NEO GEO


distance

4: Megadrive





SFC haters you have failed, suck my balls.

The Neo Geo only has 1.3 RPGs, which places it far behind the other libraries for me.

[Otaking]

I haven't really played any RPGs myself since the mid-nineties (there was a period then that's all I played) but the SNES is God like in the RPG stakes.

[CrackTiger]

I haven't really played any RPGs myself since the mid-nineties (there was a period then that's all I played) but the SNES is God like in the RPG stakes.

Yes, it's true that the SNES was more popular outside of Japan.

[Otaking]

I haven't really played any RPGs myself since the mid-nineties (there was a period then that's all I played) but the SNES is God like in the RPG stakes.

Yes, it's true that the SNES was more popular outside of Japan.

yes and inside Japan too buy a long way only beaten by the eerrr Famicom.

Yes the PC Engine managed second place in Japan but there was a huge gap between it and the first place Super Famicom or Famicom.

[VestCunt]

but the SNES is God like in the [dumbed-down J]RPG stakes.

Fixed!

Interesting video. The history of influences is fairly accurate, but the comparisons are bullshit. Saying that western RPGs were declining because SNES ports of Wizardry V and Ultima VII sold poorly compared to new exclusives like Chrono Trigger is a bunch of malarkey. They were ports. Of old games. Made for a completely different kind of platform AND medium. I'd like to see what that list of best-selling games would look like if it included PC titles and not just home consoles.

Computer ports in the 16-bit era were really fish out of water. Even with the SNES mouse, the interface for games like Eye of the Beholder and MMIII is completely butchered. The SNES mouse isn't particularly fast or responsive. Games like Ultima played well on computers because they were designed for a keyboard with dozens of different shortcuts and the ability to type questions rather than select them. Also, the process of converting code and porting games tends to be uncreative and boring, so ports are typically assigned to newer or less talented programmers who are less likely to do a good job (see Ultima V NES).

Computer games are/were a completely different medium, especially in the early Nineties. They were designed to be played by individuals sitting at desks in empty rooms with near-field monitors, cutting-edge graphics, flexible input devices, and maybe a CD-ROM. Console games were designed with more instant gratification in mind. They were demoed in toy stores. They were played casually on the couch with one-size-fits-all hardware and a shitty TV with scan lines and a greater likelihood of friends or onlookers being present.

The fact is, console ports of Western RPG's declined because they didn't fit the medium, not because JRPG's are superior. The "rise" of JRPGs was really just console game publishers learning that they could sell more units if they threw out half of the RPG experience (rules, statistics, customization, and problem solving) and replaced it with elements everyone could enjoy - cinema, a linear plot, and flashy spells.

Finally, the video saying that Western RPGs were statistic heavy because their fanbase was made up of technicians isn't really accurate; they were stat-heavy because Dungeons and Dragons was stat-heavy.

[Drakon]

Secret of mana is broken in a really fun way.  Just run around casting attack spells and level them up.  Also your characters will level up faster that way since you kill enemies quickly.  Only thing that sucks about secret of mana is that stupid final boss.  A: It took me forever to beat that boss, B: A giant flammie is lame.

Illusion of gaia I could never clear.  I made it pretty far in that game on a rent when it was new but now I just get bored and play some classic square snes / famicom stuff instead.

I love the snes rpgs.  I also love the snes action games.  And starfox, which is like an action game (doesn't feel like a shmup).  And....stunt race fx!  To me the snes is the ultimate rpg machine.

Okay lesse my favourite rpgs are (in no order)

ff3 (famicom)
earthbound zero (famicom)
earthbound (snes)
ff4 snes
ff6 snes
secret of mana snes
(zelda link to the past I don't think counts)
chrono trigger snes

So if these games are all "dumbed down" then I guess I love the dumbed down ones?  I love flashy spells, just as long as they don't take forever.

Never really cared for Secret of Mana.  It didn't control as well as, say, Zelda, Neutopia, Golevllius, Golden Axe Warrior, Crusader of Centy etc.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Flammie isn't lame.

You're lame.

[CrackTiger]

So if these games are all "dumbed down" then I guess I love the dumbed down ones?  I love flashy spells, just as long as they don't take forever.

What I was talking about, is how Chrono Trigger and FFVII are noob friendly, streamlined and have nothing to use your skills against, compared to previous Square games such as those you listed. One of the negative influences FFVII had on future games is the ridiculous unskippable camera shots and in-battle cinematics. A regular fight can have a full minute of time wasted on non-gameplay.

[Arkhan Asylum]

What I was talking about, is how Chrono Trigger and FFVII are noob friendly, streamlined and have nothing to use your skills against, compared to previous Square games such as those you listed.

Final Fantasy IV is easy too.  You literally just level grind and magically get all of the stuff for said characters.  Past that, if you can't figure out how to play each character to kill stuff, you're probably retarded.

The game is linear as all hell.  At least Chrono Trigger has a bunch of things you can go wander around and do, and multiple endings.

FFVII has more extra content in it than FFIV has actual content probably.  

One of the negative influences FFVII had on future games is the ridiculous unskippable camera shots and in-battle cinematics. A regular fight can have a full minute of time wasted on non-gameplay.

Would you rather they had super quick swings and such like the old games?   Why even run all the way to the enemy!  Just swing in place.  We can't waste any time trying to make the battles look cool.

If you're pressed for time and that impatient, you shouldn't play RPGs.


Granted, they often now allow you to skip the cutscenes in battles.  



It sounds like you just don't like that FFVII is the RPG that made RPGs go mainstream, and you are trying to pick reasons why that are justifiable.   The things you gripe about (save the cutscene), were already occurring in RPGs.  You just aren't acknowledging them.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Would you rather they had super quick swings and such like the old games?   Why even run all the way to the enemy!  Just swing in place.  We can't waste any time trying to make the battles look cool.

If you're pressed for time and that impatient, you shouldn't play RPGs.

That's pretty stupid, even for you.  Watching the same 15 second battle animation hundreds of times is not at all 'cool'.

It sounds like you just don't like that FFVII is the RPG that made RPGs go mainstream...

So they were still niche and unloved on the SNES?  Get real.

[Arkhan Asylum]

That's pretty stupid, even for you.  Watching the same 15 second battle animation hundreds of times is not at all 'cool'.

Errr, There's nothing stupid about it.

FFS, The only battle animations that take forever are the summons.   Knights of the Round is the worst.  However, it's an optional summon.  You don't even have to go get it.  Once you do have it, you barely need to even cast it. If you pick to use its overpoweredness, you already know and are committing to watching it. 

Save it for the last boss, or for Jenova Synthesis/Bizzaro Sephiroth for some hilarious 1 hit kills.   If you look at it that way, using the lengthy summon actually saves you time, because you cast it one time and win!  You don't have to do an entire boss battle! You just watch one summon animation, and win!  Efficiency!

Most of the summons are pretty unneeded in general in the game.  Final Attack-Phoenix is probably the only useful summon combo.  The rest are just for shits and giggles, and pretty graphics.

Aside from that, I don't think Cloud running over and hitting an enemy is really that stressful to sit through.  Spells aren't long at all, and most times, by the time you've selected your next characters action for the turn, the first characters thing has already been cast, and resolved itself.   The game has active battles.  Shit happens while you're poking around the menu picking stuff.

You've played FFVII, right?

The limit breaks aren't long either, except maybe the end game ones that you barely even use anyways.  Even those are pretty short.  I think I used Omnislash one time, and it was when they told me I had to at the end of the game.

For that matter, I don't recall using ANY of the limit breaks "hundreds of times".  You also don't fight the same bosses over and over so you'd never see the same special attack animations from any of them hundreds of times either.

Also, the game must not be that long and drawn out, because i was able to sit through and finish the entire game again one time in a 3 day timespan. 

You ever play a modern RPG that lets you skip through the battle animations?   It looks retarded.  I did that with Hyperdimension Neptunia and mostly laughed at how dumb battles looked because everything jerked around alot.

So they were still niche and unloved on the SNES?  Get real.

Uh, I didn't say that.  They certainly weren't mainstream on the SNES either.

FFVII is when people who didn't normally play RPGs started noticing RPGs and going OH MAN OH MAN OH MAN.   FFVII!!!!!!    Do you know how many people I went to school with that would play FFVII but wouldn't touch anything on SNES that had Final Fantasy in the title?   

The perspective, graphics, cutscenes, and story of VII is what tipped the scales.  Sure Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Lufia, and FF3(6) set it all up, but VII is when it took off.


At least, thats how it was around here.  I dunno what it was like in Nebraskastan. 

[geise]

Man, when it comes to long cutscenes in rpg's I would say Grandia 2 takes the cake.  Very cool the first time, but man those spells and other tactic fighting moves get old quick.  BTW I love the Grandia series.

[Arkhan Asylum]

The ones in Grandia were cool too though.   I think you could skip them, though.   Since that was the PS2 era and all.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Errr, There's nothing stupid about it.

No doubt about it - it's dumb to tell people not to play RPGs at all if they prefer quick battles.

Battle animations are awesome, and you're playing the game wrong if you don't like 'em.

Sure, chief.  Whatever you say.  I just pray the battle animations are even longer and more numerous in forthcoming remakes, then the game will be really good.

Uh, I didn't say that.  They certainly weren't mainstream on the SNES either.

I meant unloved by the masses (which should've been obvious from the context), and the opposite of mainstream is indeed 'niche' or 'unloved by the masses'. 

FFVII is when people who didn't normally play RPGs started noticing RPGs and going OH MAN OH MAN OH MAN.   FFVII!!!!!!    Do you know how many people I went to school with that would play FFVII but wouldn't touch anything on SNES that had Final Fantasy in the title?   

The perspective, graphics, cutscenes, and story of VII is what tipped the scales.  Sure Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Lufia, and FF3(6) set it all up, but VII is when it took off.


At least, thats how it was around here.  I dunno what it was like in Nebraskastan. 

I suspect it was about the same amongst nine year olds, but not so much amongst adults.  Perhaps we were too busy throwing it on the ground or attempting to determine who is and who isn't a cell phone.

[VestCunt]

So they were still niche and unloved on the SNES?  Get real.

The RPG explosion was kind of incremental. FFIII (6) and Chronotrigger certainly popularized the genre, but the SNES itself was still kid's stuff. Since the Playstation was the console made video gaming mainstream, it's easy to argue that FFVII made RPG's mainstream.

[Drakon]

Well my first rpg was ff4 which I played when I was 11.  I got to the last dungeon then had to return it to my friend.  I dunno if this's a dumbed down one or not.

FF7 has....fmvs.....annoying playstation polygons.......a story that was as exciting as a decent movie, and a theme with too much zazz.

So if these games are all "dumbed down" then I guess I love the dumbed down ones?  I love flashy spells, just as long as they don't take forever.

What I was talking about, is how Chrono Trigger and FFVII are noob friendly, streamlined and have nothing to use your skills against, compared to previous Square games such as those you listed. One of the negative influences FFVII had on future games is the ridiculous unskippable camera shots and in-battle cinematics. A regular fight can have a full minute of time wasted on non-gameplay.

[Arkhan Asylum]

No doubt about it - it's dumb to tell people not to play RPGs at all if they prefer quick battles.

If you say so.  If you think the battles in a game like FFVII are long, go play Knights of Legend or Eternal Dagger and get back to me on that.  RPGs are never really quick about anything, and aren't for impatient people.

Sure, chief.  Whatever you say.  I just pray the battle animations are even longer and more numerous in forthcoming remakes, then the game will be really good.

So you prefer the guys just stand in place and do nothing, or maybe just fling their arm a little?  All for the sake of getting it done fast?

Or how about FF1 where giant swords just appear in front of the enemies!  Yeah, that looks great.  swords as big as the characters floating in front of them.

Final Fantasy wasn't even the first game to have the characters ACTUALLY run up and attack enemies.  FF was still having the guys stand around like retards when that concept appeared.

Did you even play FFVII?  The battle animations are quick, as I've already mentioned.  Aside from the summons which are obvious eye candy because the PS1 could do it.  They're also optional.  You don't have to use them.  I've completed FFVII without using a single summon spell.

also, the animations go on WHILE you are using the menus.   So, what is the big deal?  Are you pausing the game during battles after everything you pick?

"OH DANG.  CLOUD FINISHED HIS ATTACK JUST AS I FINISHED SELECTING TIFAS.  THAT'S BULLSHIT.  HE SHOULD'VE FINISHED BEFORE I EVEN GOT INTO HER MAGIC MENU! THIS IS TAKING TOO LONG, FUCK!"

plus the new FFVII remake is great. 

I meant unloved by the masses (which should've been obvious from the context), and the opposite of mainstream is indeed 'niche' or 'unloved by the masses'. 

Doesn't have to be opposite.  It can be somewhere between the two.  That should be obvious.

I suspect it was about the same amongst nine year olds, but not so much amongst adults.  Perhaps we were too busy throwing it on the ground or attempting to determine who is and who isn't a cell phone.

My adult relatives who also played games were all about it too, and I'd venture to guess they are older than you, and some of them had never played an RPG before.

[HercTNT]

I love most rpg's. does not matter if the characters move or not. graphics don't matter as much as gameplay and story. play dungeon crawl or nethack and you will see.

[Joe Redifer]

The quicker the battles, the better. That said, I do like good graphics on the backgrounds, enemies and characters. A long, drawn out animation of a particular attack might be cool the first 2 or 3 times but it gets old after a while. I hated fighting the zombies in Phantasy Star because it'd take them forever to drop their jaw and attack compared to other monsters. I don't really have all day and I want to get to the end of the maze to get that little trinket I need. Also if I grind, I want my grinding to go as fast as possible. That's why nobody grinds on enemies that give them 2exp and instead go for the ones that give them 240exp or so. Time does matter.  What I hate even more is when a game doesn't let me take my time to make my battle selections and the enemies just keep attacking again and again as I fudge through the clumsy menu system.

[Arkhan Asylum]

In the case of FFVII, I would like to see some actual examples of battle animations that take too long, and are done too often.

The really flashy shit hardly happens unless you're retarded and cast Knights of the Round with every character, in every battle.

Grinding was fairly fast in the game.  The load times often take longer than the battles themselves, especially once you have *overpoweredspell*+All Materia and can wipe the field with one spell cast.

Like you pointed out, Joe, the zombie thing in Phantasy Star is annoying.  That alone is probably worse than anything FF7 was doing.

My only complaint about FFVII is watching Sephiroth use that stupid nova attack.  How many times can you blow up every planet, really?

[Joe Redifer]

I can't personally complain about FF7's battles because I haven't played it in forever. I just played Chrono Cross and some of those battles were pretty long. Not because of all of the animations (which they definitely had), but because some of the enemies seemed to take forever to defeat.

[Otaking]

[Arkhan Asylum]

lol that last ad.

Looks like hes fuckin humping the controller.

[Tatsujin]

holding the joy-stick like this, must be hard to bring some good score on the screen.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

The RPG explosion was kind of incremental. FFIII (6) and Chronotrigger certainly popularized the genre, but the SNES itself was still kid's stuff. Since the Playstation was the console made video gaming mainstream, it's easy to argue that FFVII made RPG's mainstream.

I'd buy that it took Final Fantasy mainstream, but not the entire genre.  Outside of FF VII, VIII, and IX (which sold progressively fewer copies), no other RPG titles sold any better than those on the SNES.

[jlued686]

lol that last ad.

Looks like hes fuckin humping the controller.

Even better, the boss looks like his (mutilated) wang.

[Arkhan Asylum]

The RPG explosion was kind of incremental. FFIII (6) and Chronotrigger certainly popularized the genre, but the SNES itself was still kid's stuff. Since the Playstation was the console made video gaming mainstream, it's easy to argue that FFVII made RPG's mainstream.

I'd buy that it took Final Fantasy mainstream, but not the entire genre.  Outside of FF VII, VIII, and IX (which sold progressively fewer copies), no other RPG titles sold any better than those on the SNES.

I dunno man.  The stuff after FFVII was more noticed than the stuff before for the most part.  Xenogears, Legend of Legaia, Star Ocean 2, Lunar 1 & 2 remakes...