Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate

[Vic Viper]

Hey all.  I'm new to this forum.  I know this is an old thread, but I just had to put in my two cents.  I don't know why people on this forum would make such a big deal about graphics!  When it comes to games, the graphics are not all that important.  It's the game play that counts.  If graphics were the be all and end all of gaming, our Turbo and Genesis systems would all be long-forgotten and collecting dust somewhere, or at the dump, and we would only be discussing our Playstation 3's and X-Box 360's.  But since someone brought this up, I actually prefer to think of my TG-16 as an 8-bit system, because when you compare it to other 8-bit systems, the graphics are downright miraculous!  Eat you heart out, NES and Master System fans!

[albinoMithos]

Hey all.  I'm new to this forum.  I know this is an old thread, but I just had to put in my two cents.  I don't know why people on this forum would make such a big deal about graphics!  When it comes to games, the graphics are not all that important.  It's the game play that counts.  If graphics were the be all and end all of gaming, our Turbo and Genesis systems would all be long-forgotten and collecting dust somewhere, or at the dump, and we would only be discussing our Playstation 3's and X-Box 360's.  But since someone brought this up, I actually prefer to think of my TG-16 as an 8-bit system, because when you compare it to other 8-bit systems, the graphics are downright miraculous!  Eat you heart out, NES and Master System fans!

Back again huh nintega? 

[albinoMithos]

If this is who I think it is, it is DEFINITELY not Nintega.

Hopefully it's not, but I do remember nin making that same exact argument...  And the name.  Just sayin'  anyways off topic on my part.  Sorry 'bout that.

[CrackTiger]

Hey all.  I'm new to this forum.  I know this is an old thread, but I just had to put in my two cents.  I don't know why people on this forum would make such a big deal about graphics!  When it comes to games, the graphics are not all that important.  It's the game play that counts.  If graphics were the be all and end all of gaming, our Turbo and Genesis systems would all be long-forgotten and collecting dust somewhere, or at the dump, and we would only be discussing our Playstation 3's and X-Box 360's.  But since someone brought this up, I actually prefer to think of my TG-16 as an 8-bit system, because when you compare it to other 8-bit systems, the graphics are downright miraculous!  Eat you heart out, NES and Master System fans!

I like to think of my Xbox 360 as an 8-bit console, because it crushes the puny competition even more so.

[Vic Viper]

I like to think of my Xbox 360 as an 8-bit console, because it crushes the puny competition even more so.

That's a fun dream, whereas the Turbo REALLY IS an 8-bit console.  Last time I heard, the X-box 360 was getting crushed by the lame-assed Wii.  No I am not this nintega person.  I would never disgrace myself by using a name that has any part of the word nintendo in it.

[CrackTiger]

That's a fun dream, whereas the Turbo REALLY IS an 8-bit console.  Last time I heard, the X-box 360 was getting crushed by the lame-assed Wii.  No I am not this nintega person.  I would never disgrace myself by using a name that has any part of the word nintendo in it.

The Intellivision REALLY IS a 16-bit console by the same standards.

[spenoza]

I like to think of my Xbox 360 as an 8-bit console, because it crushes the puny competition even more so.

That's a fun dream, whereas the Turbo REALLY IS an 8-bit console.  Last time I heard, the X-box 360 was getting crushed by the lame-assed Wii.  No I am not this nintega person.  I would never disgrace myself by using a name that has any part of the word nintendo in it.

How do you define bit-ness? The CPU is 8-bit, but the graphics chip is fully 16-bit. Further, the CPU in the Genesis is 16-bit, but I suspect (maybe Tom can clarify) that the data bus is only 8-bit. And really, bit-ness doesn't mean much. The SNES has a 16-bit CPU, but the core design is still very similar to the 8-bit CPU on which it is based. And when you take an objective (well, in a relative sense, anyway) measure of CPU performance, like MIPS or somesuch, you find that the CPUs in the Genesis, SNES, and TG-16 all perform on a similar level. So is an 8-bit CPU that's as "powerful" as a 16-bit CPU a lesser CPU because it is 8-bit? Or is it a peer CPU because it can chug out just as much real-world performance?

See, the whole 8-bit console vs 16-bit console thing is really more about perceptions than technical details. It's about lumping together games of similar style and make rather than technical specifications, ultimately. There's no argument that some of the very early TG-16 games were largely 8-bit in scale and scope and meant clearly to compete with the NES. But the later games on the system were very clearly the peers of any of the titles on the SNES or Genesis. It's hard to argue that games like Art of Fighting, Magical Chase, Aero Blasters, Lords of Thunder, etc... are somehow of the same generation of development, graphics, and audio as the NES. These games are clearly peers to anything released on the "true 16-bit" systems. So in this sense, the PCE is a bridge system. It's the system that connects the 8-bit generation to the 16-bit generation. Just as the Neo Geo bridges the 16-bit generation with the 2D games of the 32-bit generation. The N64, with its 64-bit CPU, is clearly of the 32-bit generation regardless of its technical details, whereas the Dreamcast is considered, at least timing-wise, the bridge system between the 32-bit generation and the following generation (PS2, GC, Xbox).

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, rehashing stuff we all largely agree on. There's no point arguing the bit-ness thing any further. Regardless of particular design decision trade-offs and the lack or presence of a particular capability, the PCE is definitely a peer system to the Genesis and SNES. On this I think there is no meaningful debate. It doesn't matter if any one of us likes one system a little better than the others, they're all clearly in the same ballpark and playing the same game, if you will.

[ccovell]

The 68000 is actually a 32-bit processor, at least as far as internal registers and [macro]instructions are concerned.  However, over its lifetime, different varieties of the 68000 had data buses ranging from 8 bits wide to 32 bits.

[CrackTiger]

I think that "amazing for only 8-bit!" comments are more appropriate for SMS games, many of which feature graphics and sometimes sound equal to or better than many 16-bit gen console games.

There's no argument that some of the very early TG-16 games were largely 8-bit in scale and scope and meant clearly to compete with the NES.

There are many Gen/MD & SNES/SFC games with 8-bit-like aspects, which aren't all early efforts either.

[spenoza]

The 68000 is actually a 32-bit processor, at least as far as internal registers and [macro]instructions are concerned.  However, over its lifetime, different varieties of the 68000 had data buses ranging from 8 bits wide to 32 bits.

I tried to assert something like this some time back and Tom took me to task for over-simplifying. But yes. The 68000 as used in the Genesis and early PC varieties was tied to a 16-bit bus, I believe. Just goes to show how little all this bit-shit actually adds up to...

[spenoza]

I think that "amazing for only 8-bit!" comments are more appropriate for SMS games, many of which feature graphics and sometimes sound equal to or better than many 16-bit gen console games.

There's no argument that some of the very early TG-16 games were largely 8-bit in scale and scope and meant clearly to compete with the NES.

There are many Gen/MD & SNES/SFC games with 8-bit-like aspects, which aren't all early efforts either.

This is very true. From my perspective, however, there are a greater proportion of games (among chip titles, at least) on the TG-16 which exhibit those qualities. It has less to do with the technical qualities of the system and more to do with the timing of its introduction and the conditions of the market at the time, I suppose.

[OldRover]

The whole bit war thing was stupid from the start and had no bearing on how the games were. I've played many an NES game that was superior to anything I've seen on the PS3. The bit thing was just marketing hype that they eventually had to abandon once consoles got too complex to measure in bits.

[TurboXray]

The 68000 is actually a 32-bit processor, at least as far as internal registers and [macro]instructions are concerned. 

Even Sega and SNK didn't hype that in marketing Paired 16bit regs and a 16bit ALU, never mind the 16bit data bus.

 Funny thing, a standard random access memory read, add, store of 32bit element is slower on the 68k(even with its macro instructions) than on the 65816 and that's a 16bit processor on an 8bit bus. And that's with the 65816 using *no* DP/ZP regs. Sequential free incrementing on the 68k though brings the cycle counts ,between the two, even - which is still surprising for the 65816 considering it has no macro instructions or pair 16bit regs or auto-increment. Some people also boast about it having the ability of moving 32bits at a time for source/destination, yet fail to see the 65816 and 6280 block move instructions are faster at the same clock speed. Among other examples.

 I wrote a 68k hsync routine for the PCE. The idea was to drop in a 68k in place of the 6280, to see some direct comparisons. Surprisingly, the 68k code ended up being 49cycles longer or 35% percent slower (93 vs 142). And that was with reserved half the registers of the 68k - which is going to cripple it fairly good for other game code because it's more of a register-register processor than the 65x arch. Realistically, I wouldn't reserve that many registers and the cycle count would go up to about 160+ or more. If that was a full screen sine or such, you'd really start to eat into cpu resource.  And my 6280 code could have been 80 something cycles for some instances(if you only need to change the lower 8bit part of the scroll reg) or even 70 something cycles for arcade card optimization. That's definitely not going to be the case for every situation. But that's a good example how one can optimize for 8bit elements to drive that speed.

The whole bit war thing was stupid from the start

Yeah. And it still goes on.

[Blammo]

The whole bit war thing was stupid from the start and had no bearing on how the games were. I've played many an NES game that was superior to anything I've seen on the PS3. The bit thing was just marketing hype that they eventually had to abandon once consoles got too complex to measure in bits.

It might have been bogus but it wasn't stupid - at least on Sega's part anyway, and on Atari and Commodore's in the computer market. It was a good marketing move that summed up in a single term what made - or was alleged to make - the Genesis better than the competition.

Perhaps NEC shouldn't have pushed it quite so much though. I do wonder how much of it was an attempt to compete with Sega though: by the time NEC started shouting about 16-bit with the Turbo's release in '89, the Japanese Mega Drive with its massive 16-Bit sign had already been out a year. I don't remember ever seeing "16-Bit" being used in relation to the PC Engine. It certainly seems as if pushing the 16-bit angle didn't occur to them until Sega started it.

[Joe Redifer]

Putting "16" in the name of the US console was NEC's way of marketing against Sega's 16-Bit campaign.  They didn't want to be seen as "less bits" and therefore less powerful  Marketing can be a powerful tool.

[Gentlegamer]

Putting "16" in the name of the US console was NEC's way of marketing against Sega's 16-Bit campaign.  They didn't want to be seen as "less bits" and therefore less powerful  Marketing can be a powerful tool.

Now explain the "TurboGrafx" part.

[NecroPhile]

Now explain the "TurboGrafx" part.

Turbo = more power and Grafx = graphics, so TurboGrafx must = more powerful graphics.  What about that isn't obvious?  It's not like they named it something completely groundless (such as Xbox or Wii).

[TurboXray]

Putting "16" in the name of the US console was NEC's way of marketing against Sega's 16-Bit campaign.  They didn't want to be seen as "less bits" and therefore less powerful  Marketing can be a powerful tool.

Now explain the "TurboGrafx" part.

I think that decision came from Japan. I mean, SuperGrafx and CoreGrafx names came out the same time frame as TurboGrafx.

[Joe Redifer]

I always thought that TurboGrafx-16 literally translated into "Fast 16-Bit Graphics!!!!"  Very descriptive and actually not really deceptive at all.

[guyjin]

Actually, I think the TurboGrafx-16 has the best name of the 16 bit consoles: "Super Nintendo entertainment system", while it gets the point across, is not terribly interesting. And "Genesis" doesn't even make sense. Did they want us to think of the Bible or early 80s british bands? what do those things have to do with videogames? "mega drive" was better, but not as cool as "TurboGrafx-16".

[OldRover]

"Genesis" was meant to imply "the dawn of 16 bit gaming".

[Joe Redifer]

And "Genesis" doesn't even make sense. Did they want us to think of the Bible or early 80s british bands?

No, they wanted us to think that is was so cool that even Khan and Christopher Lloyd would go apeshit over trying to get it.

[Ceti Alpha]

And "Genesis" doesn't even make sense. Did they want us to think of the Bible or early 80s british bands?

No, they wanted us to think that is was so cool that even Khan and Christopher Lloyd would go apeshit over trying to get it.

haha!! GIVE MEEE GENESIIIISSSSS!!!!

[Keranu]

Genesis doesn't make any sense, but it just sounds awesome. Maybe it means like "The beginning of raw video game power", or in other words "blast processing".

[Joe Redifer]

According to what Sega told me before it came out, it was meant as their own personal "New beginning", especially since they were marketing it themselves instead of Tonka.

[Ceti Alpha]

According to what Sega told me before it came out, it was meant as their own personal "New beginning", especially since they were marketing it themselves instead of Tonka.

And that makes sense. Kinda what I always thought of it as - a new beginning after the SMS days.

[esteban]

I'm doing the smart thing and not reading (re-reading) anything in this thread.

Instead, I'll just jump in at the current conversation: "Genesis" was, and remains, a great name for a console.

The only way to trump "Genesis" was if Sega had named its successor "Leviathan".

Awesome.

If only more consoles made biblical references... I'd be stoked.

[geise]

I personally would prefer if consoles made name references to ninjas.

[TurboXray]

I personally would prefer if consoles made name references to ninjas.

Could you give some examples?

[guyjin]

Well, there's the Sega Katana (known to its friends as the Dreamcast)

[NecroPhile]

If only more consoles made biblical references... I'd be stoked.

MS could've named the Xbox Mary's Virginal Box.  I still wouldn't have bought it.

Could you give some examples?

How 'bout the Wii nunchuks?

[Joe Redifer]

The only way to trump "Genesis" was if Sega had named its successor "Leviathan".

Haha I laughed out loud on that one.  An actual, real life LOL.  That's hilarious... and AWESOME!  The 32-Bit Sega Leviathan!

[spenoza]

Fortunately, Sega wasn't all that interested in sending a message to consumers that their next system was big, mean, and ugly. Could you imagine a minicomputer (think Vax) form factor home console?

[OldRover]

I prototyped an x86-based console a few years ago called Leviathan. I also designed (but never prototyped) a smaller version called Serpent.

[NecroPhile]

I prototyped an x86-based console a few years ago called Leviathan. I also designed (but never prototyped) a smaller version called Serpent.

Was that for MS?  If sounds like the Xbox - the largest or most massive thing of its kind. 

[OldRover]

It wasn't for Microsoft...it was prototyped after the Xbox was already released. The system specs were far more impressive than any console of the era, and would have been a real contender even in the current generation. But since I had no corporate backing, I was never able to have it manufactured, let alone released on the open market to compete with the big boys. It used an AMD XP 3200+ processor, 64MB of main RAM, a Geforce 4 graphics chipset, and a Creative Audigy sound system, plus featured an 8x DVD-ROM drive, removable flash storage, a 40GB internal HDD, and two USB ports for keyboards/mice/etc. I designed controllers for it (based largely on the PSX controller scheme) but never made them; the controller interface was a digital dual gamepad port. Serpent was a lesser system, using a 500MHz AMD K6, 32MB of RAM, 8MB of video RAM (no hardware 3D capabilities), a Creative SB Live! chipset, and a 50x CDROM drive. Both systems were designed to boot their operating system from the disc (much like the Dreamcast, which was where I got the idea from), meaning you could theoretically use any x86-compatible OS to make games (provided you respected the hardware details). For Leviathan, I experimented with FreeDOS, Windows 98, and Slackware as bootable OSes. Ironically, I had the best luck with Windows 98. I ran a custom-compiled version of MAME for my system and had great luck with it through Windows 98. Since I never prototyped Serpent, I don't know how well it would have done, though looking at some of the "kiddie consoles" out there today (like the ones made by Leapfrog), I'd say it could have given some of them a run for their money.

[Tatsujin]

lol..were or for who do you work TOR? :shock:sounds very interessting

[OldRover]

Wasn't working for anyone...I designed both consoles in my free time.

[Tatsujin]

but for what purpose? pics please game demos please lay off everything please

[OldRover]

Unfortunately, I have neither pics of the machine nor the machine itself anymore. Pics I took of the prototype were on one of the CDROMs that was destroyed a few years back, and I have no idea where the prototype itself went...it might still be in storage in Camuy though...I have to go through storage again anyways so I'll take a look-see. The only "game demo" it would have is the customized MAME version I built so that doesn't help much.

And for what purpose? It was designed to be an open-format machine...anyone could dev for it, not just big corporations. Many people have long since dreamed of making such a console and having it run free on the open market...and all attempts thus far have largely failed. Gamepark is the only one to come close to succeeding.

[guyjin]

you know, you might want to get in touch with EA and tell them about your projects. I seem to recall that they were bitching about having to develop for so many platforms and having to pay licence fees and all that to the console makers... with your unit, they could kill 2 birds with one stone.

and lose lots of money when it fails. 

[Keranu]

There was another open source Linux-based console in the works around the time of Xbox/Gamecube I think, maybe earlier. I can't remember the name right now, but if I recall it was making great progress, but for whatever reason couldn't make it to the market. Anyone have links to what I'm talking about?

[OldRover]

Keranu, that might have been the Tuxbox...

guyjin, fuck EA. Besides, I abandoned Leviathan at the prototype stage.

[Tatsujin]

how do you approach such a project like that as a one man show?

just assemble existing components together?
designing the hardare from scratch (inkl. pcb, layout etc.)?

it ain't easy to do something lonely.

please tell lil'bit more about

[OldRover]

I found the smallest normal PC motherboard I could find and wrote a custom BIOS for it...yeah bad me, reverse-engineering the original BIOS. I used a PCI riser board to fit additional cards, and crafted two plastic rods with grooves cut into them to hold the cards in place, and attached the rods to the motherboard through holes that would normally be used to attach the board to a case. I then fitted the board monstrosity into a plastic shell that I had built at a plastics shop about an hour away. The rest was just basically cutting holes in the shell to attach the additional I/O ports and building risers into the shell to hold the DVD-ROM and HDD. To power the beastie, I found a very efficient, very small 450W power supply and attached an exhaust fan to the back next to it.

The whole process involved finding the smallest components possible that would get the job done to spec. It wasn't easy.

After I had abandoned all hope of mass-producing Leviathan, I attempted to design a handheld...that was even more difficult, because you really have to know computer design...nowhere near the same as building a normal console out of x86-compatible components. Since I was just starting out with "console from scratch" ideas, I based it on the familiar 65C02 and coupled it with a very basic graphics chip (I don't remember which chip I was going to use). For a screen, I found a very nicely done 320x240 pixel LCD screen available pretty cheaply. But after I had finished developing the schematic, I did a power profile and discovered that the machine would require way too much amperage. This was before Li-Ion batteries were widespread and built-in chargers were uncommon, so I had no idea how I would be able to power the damn thing...as it was, it would have required three 9V batteries to run it. So, I scrapped it.

Console design really isn't my thing though...I'd rather make games for existing consoles, like the PC Engine.

[Tatsujin]

yeah..console designing nowadays is more like puting some preferably cheap but small and powerful pc components together, attach some periferials and I/Os then write a stand alone application for it and call it a console (e.g. xbox etc.)

back in the days, especially for the PC Engine, a hardware was designed from the very scratch an CPU base on. compared to now, this time must have been very exciting for game hardware developers.

still if you want do a handheld today, you can either switch to a already existing mobile application or you can do it from the scratch, which will be a hell of work as well needs a lot of cash and outsourced help to reach such a target. but it must be very exciting to something like that

[Keranu]

Keranu, that might have been the Tuxbox...

After searching for Tuxbox, I found out that the Tuxbox was actually the "successor" to the console I was originally thinking of: The Indrema.