The Goal: System Card 4.0

[nectarsis]

ARISE FROM THE DEAD!!

Anything been worked on in the last year and a half+?

[shubibiman]

I didn't see this thread back then so here s my thought :

First of all it is a very ambitious project indeed but as others said, It would be better if it didn't take away the spirit of the PCE. I wouldn't care about mode 7-like games or that other kind of features. What I think would be interesting, though, would be to upgrade the DUO to a "SuperDuo". By that I mean that it would be great if you could develop a card that would allow the DUO to be Supergrafx compatible. So if your card could have a chip that would simulate the second SGX GPU, it would allow developpers to make Super Arcade CD games. It would definitely be the ultimate PCE Hardware without adding extra features that don't already exist.

I think it's so frustrating that NEC HE or Hudson never thought of developping Supergrafx Cd games.

I'm not a dev myself but what I really like with the work everyone of you makes is when you use the already existing PCE hardware at its best.

[TurboXray]

Wow... just looking back at the original specs. That's a whooooole lota system card. Kinda does break the spirit of the PCE though. I'd personally rather, now, go with something much less but still fits within the PCE realm. Some indirect ports mapped into the open address range like what the ACD card does. Maybe a nice very fine res banking system just for the $2000-3fff range or $4000-5fff range. Something that would make far access for C much easier to deal with (would still be 24bit). An option for ACD reading via ports (which is the only method anyway), to interlace bytes from two different regions. You could do auto opcode embedded graphics like that, and run the code out of banks $40-43. Other than that, maybe just add some more ram in the $20000-3ffff region. How much? Dunno. 16k to 32k maybe. This would really help out translation efforts. 

 Everything here is actually doable. It could work as a pass through card, for the ACD card/other systems cards. Like someone else suggested, this would make the legality of keeping the original system card ROM code - a non issue. Though, I personally don't care. I doubt Hudson or NEC would go after us for using this "copyrighted" ROM. The only problem with the pass through is, you'll need to have a hucard connector made - but the up side is that you don't have to try to copy/simulate/emulate any of the Arcade Card funky register system. don't have to include that rom, don't have to include that 192k of sram either. All those are plus'. And makes the pass through card much less expensive, I would imagine. The only concern I would have, would be trying to have a hucard connector made. I'm not sure the cost on something like that.

[SignOfZeta]

What I think would be interesting, though, would be to upgrade the DUO to a "SuperDuo". By that I mean that it would be great if you could develop a card that would allow the DUO to be Supergrafx compatible. So if your card could have a chip that would simulate the second SGX GPU, it would allow developpers to make Super Arcade CD games. It would definitely be the ultimate PCE Hardware without adding extra features that don't already exist.

I think it's so frustrating that NEC HE or Hudson never thought of developping Supergrafx Cd games.

The reason they didn't think of it is because the Supergrafx was dead and out of production for a few years by the time the Arcade Card was even released. In fact, the SGX was dead before the Super System Card was out.

Making an Super Arcade Card game is already possible by just using an Arcade Card in a SuperGrafx with a CDROM unit attached. Figuring out a way to upgrade a Duo to SGX power is a vastly more difficult and expensive way of doing the same thing, assuming its even possible.

Of course the most difficult thing of all would be to organize a game production effort grand enough and capable enough to actually use the resources of all this kit. The more power you have the more time and effort takes to max the potential of the system, and I haven't seen any homebrew so far that even makes the potential of a standard HuCard.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a Super Arcade Card game be made using stuff like high res mode and transparencies that we've seen in demos. Also, some HuVideo, some long load-free cinemas, etc. I'd be much more interested in buying a SGX for this that I would for any official SGX soft.

[shubibiman]

The reason they didn't think of it is because the Supergrafx was dead and out of production for a few years by the time the Arcade Card was even released. In fact, the SGX was dead before the Super System Card was out.

Making an Super Arcade Card game is already possible by just using an Arcade Card in a SuperGrafx with a CDROM unit attached. Figuring out a way to upgrade a Duo to SGX power is a vastly more difficult and expensive way of doing the same thing, assuming its even possible.

I know all of this already but I said that because I don't know that many people who own the complete SGX/SCD/ACD set up ;)

[Arjak]

OK! Time for some naive self-indulgence!

One thing that I see of importance when this project nears completion is the idea of having a flagship game, a game that will make people go, "OMG! I NEED THAT CARD SO I CAN PLAY THAT BADASS GAME!"

Do you have any ideas in the works? If not, I have an idea for a game. People say I'm a decent writer, so...

[SignOfZeta]

The reason they didn't think of it is because the Supergrafx was dead and out of production for a few years by the time the Arcade Card was even released. In fact, the SGX was dead before the Super System Card was out.

Making an Super Arcade Card game is already possible by just using an Arcade Card in a SuperGrafx with a CDROM unit attached. Figuring out a way to upgrade a Duo to SGX power is a vastly more difficult and expensive way of doing the same thing, assuming its even possible.

I know all of this already but I said that because I don't know that many people who own the complete SGX/SCD/ACD set up ;)

Well, it would be a lot easier for those people to just buy an existing and extremely reliable system than to attempt the nearly impossible by adding it to a Duo via the HuCard slot. It would probably cost about the same too (cheaper probably). Most people hard core enough to want something like this (and pay for it) already have a Arcade Card, and there is a good chance they will have a CDROM2/SuperCDROM2 and/or a SGX too. One or the other anyway.

[shubibiman]

The thing is that the SGX itself is quite expensive and the Super Cd Rom not easy to find and expensive as well. I'm not even talking of getting an IFU+SGX+RAU 30. I know a lot of people not that hardcore who'd like to have such a combo but who just can't afford getting all the stuff needed. How about the ones who own a DUO and would be glad if such a device was made?

It would be great if we could have SGX/ACD games, it would be greater if it was available to as many players as can be.

[SignOfZeta]

You can get a bare SGX for $150 if you play your cards right. The CDROM2 is something a lot of us have. SuperCDROM2s are kind of scarce, but not that bad. I was thinking more of the RAU 30 route, and those aren't that expensive. So basically if you have a CDRROM2 (or maybe TG-16CD?, not sure) you can add Super ACD capability for $200-250. If you think that this is a lot of money consider the fact that this mega card thing you are hypothesizing is going to cost at least that much, and will probably be full of problems (if it works at all). Consider the price/problems that come with something like the flash cards from Tototek and multiply that by a factor of at least two.

I don't have a SGX, but if a homebrew Super Arcade CD game came out (that looked interesting) and I wanted to play it, I would be way more interested in playing it with as much NEC hardware as possible.

[OldRover]

If you think that this is a lot of money consider the fact that this mega card thing you are hypothesizing is going to cost at least that much, and will probably be full of problems (if it works at all).

[shubibiman]

Sign Of zeat>IF such a card would cost that much, of course it would be better to just get the real hardware. What if it cost 50$? Then it would be much better to get a DUO-R and the card. But how can we now to that point?

[TurboXray]

Why would the suppose card I just laid out, cost that much!? CLPD are in the $5 range 1-10 quantities and FPGA a little more in the same quantity. And that adds support for hardware large/fast MUL/DIV/etc to the PCE. Even if you had to add the 2megabyte DRAM of the ACD card, 256k rom of the system card, 192k sram of the 3.0 card (from a 512k sram chip) - all for the sake of backwards compatibility, I don't see how it would even be anywhere near that amount. Shit, you could even add video upgrades via some of those CLPD/FPGA (like a color intensity alteration device via image overlays or window registers (levels of transparency), be it composite or RGB in/out). *If* you wanted such an upgrade. Not sure people would like looking at video wires in/out of the front of the cart port and card though. At least on the 32x, they were behind the system. Making an Arcade Card Pro with a few upgrades, wouldn't break the bank. It also make it for people that don't already have an arcade card, that much cheaper because they don't have to buy the original card.

 But of course the true question is: will any software justify the purchase of another card? Hell, for those that don't already own an Arcade Card - would they sell out the ca$h for one just to play ACD homebrew products?

 And to answer any speculation about the SGX+SCD/ACD support. Well, I plan on supporting it. And since Nodt's making the jump to all ASM, he could easily support such platforms (and even if he stuck with HuC, I added support for ACD and SGX already. The SGX needs to be rewrite because they are nothing more than replicas of the original HuC graphic routines). But I have no idea what he plans on doing with said hardware in any future project. It's not like the SGX+SCD unit(and/or +ACD) is a big target audience.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Why would the suppose card I just laid out, cost that much!?

Zeta and shubi are arguing the cost/feasibility of a card that adds SuperGrafx functionality to a Duo, which would undoubtedly be far more complex (or impossible) and expensive than the comparatively simple card you've proposed.  My two cents on a SG card: why stop at just a card?  If anyone's going to be so ambitious as to build such a beast, they might as well go whole hog and build an entirely new console (similar to the nes-on-a-chip or genny offerings).

[SignOfZeta]

Tom: Unless I got confused along the way shubibiman and I were discussing a card that one could use on a Duo that would add SGX capability. Since a flash card from Tototek is $50 by itself and isn't even in the same universe capability-wise as these cards we are discussing (which are in may ways more complex that the PCE itself) I can't imagine the cost being anywhere near as low.

I agree that the audience is small, but viability is a balancing act. There are homebrew hardware addons for the DS (such as the motion sensing card) that don't have any use with legit software. Obviously the DS market is at least 1000 times the size of the PCE market, but PCE people are crazier so maybe they can make up for their lack of numbers by individually putting more $$$ into the scene. (Think Neo Geo here).

Re: my comments regarding possible jankiness of this theoretical product: Here are the things in my mind when I consider this (note the lack of douchebag emoticons):

Adding SGX compatibility via the HuCard slot: Is this possible? Seriously possible? And if it is possible, would be in any way reliable? If you make a piece of software that uses it, would it also work with real NEC hardware? Consider Altered Beast CD which only works with System 1. If a huge corporation can run into a problem like that then wouldn't a team with three guys working on it have even more problems with vastly more complex stuff? Remember a while back we were talking about how for some reason some games no longer worked with certain hardware combinations after grounding pin#29 on the Hu6280? I think it was the SuperCDROM2 when combined with a SGX that didn't work with some random games. Does anyone have the slightest idea WTF that happens?

People don't set out to make crappy hardware on purpose, but sometimes things go wrong. Problems turn out to be more difficult than thought at first, suppliers of parts change, things happen with money, people quit the project, etc.

The Tototek card: This thing is not famous for its reliability and ease of use, even though its made by rather experienced guys. I'd gladly buy a System Card 4.0 for any reasonable price (say, less than $200) but is has to actually work...more or less perfectly. No proprietary software that doesn't run half the time, thank you, and I don't even own a machine on it with a parallel port so fuck that shit.

shubibiman: You asked the question, "But how can we now to that point?" Well, I don't have an answer because I don't understand the question, but I think you are asking how I can speculate on cost at this point? Well, $50...I don't think that's going to happen, even at zero profit, and I'd rather it be made at a profit because I'd like it to actually come out, and to take less time. In other words, I'd like to avoid a situation like the one with D-Lite years back.

Either way, making a card with all these features mentioned (easily the most powerful hardware add-on in history, except possibly the MegaCD) isn't going to happen unless people get more realistic. I'd love to see it, so I hope people start getting more real about it.

I've been involved with fan-ish things in the games and anime scene for a long time. It feels great to pull something off well, but I've also been through a lot of failed projects so I know how that feels too. All I'm saying is that if this topic is just a bullshit pipe dream that is never going to happen, then lets call it that (in that case, I want LDROM support!). If its a real possibility then lets pair down this ridiculous list of features (MP4 playback...wha?) and actually make the thing.

[TurboXray]

Tom: Unless I got confused along the way shubibiman and I were discussing a card that one could use on a Duo that would add SGX capability. Since a flash card from Tototek is $50 by itself and isn't even in the same universe capability-wise as these cards we are discussing (which are in may ways more complex that the PCE itself) I can't imagine the cost being anywhere near as low.

Ohh... Well, the setup I was talking about wouldn't be that expensive as long you don't mind it looking like this:

 Which I don't. Anything more fancy like a real looking hucard is going to be more expensive.

I agree that the audience is small, but viability is a balancing act. There are homebrew hardware addons for the DS (such as the motion sensing card) that don't have any use with legit software. Obviously the DS market is at least 1000 times the size of the PCE market, but PCE people are crazier so maybe they can make up for their lack of numbers by individually putting more $$$ into the scene. (Think Neo Geo here).

Yeah. It is a small target audience. But wouldn't it be a treat for owners of such SGX CD combinations get a cool homebrew soft? I personally think so. And, it's not like the SGX is some convoluted beast and hard to code for. It's just as straight forward as the PCE's video hardware, but really lets loose some of the original limits of the PCE. Imagine games running completely in 512x232 res. SGX has the realistic vram amount for it. SGX has the realistic sprite bandwidth for it. And a second BG layers makes things less complicated for scrolls effects. Not that I don't like a challenge and pushing hardware limits, but sometimes it's nice just to have the hardware directly for you.

Adding SGX compatibility via the HuCard slot: Is this possible? Seriously possible? And if it is possible, would be in any way reliable?

I've looked at this situation a while ago and what's doable. IIRC: From what I've looked at, it appears not 100% doable because of some mirroring issues of the original PCE. That's not to say that they couldn't have just made the SGX as an upgrade to the PCE originally. Given all the pins on the back, they very well could have. So, I *think* the problem might be mirror issues (otherwise if it was open bus, it wouldn't be a problem). If I remember (a few games access this mirrored area, thus the switch they put on the SGX to make it more compatible). This would cause bus conflicts. You can definitely at a version of SGX on a card. But the memory mapped I/O would be in different locations. Any new soft would detect which "SGX" setup, and use the correct address I/O's. You'll also need to have another VCE and redirect all writes to the original (so more hardware). And the biggest problem; you'd have to do analog mixing. Normally, the SGX handles all mixing digitally because the VDP(s) output it's data in digital pixel form. But since you don't have access to this on the cart port, you need to manually mix the two VDP signals. That means a composite scanline sampler (a quite easier it required it to only RGB input though).

 If this were an addon via the backplane of a non duo unit, you don't need the analog mixing part. But the backplane isn't going to solve the mirroring(bus conflict) issues. You'd have to open up the system itself and make some modifications to remove the mirroring.

 So, you could make an SGX card per se, just not one that is backwards compatible via ports. Though software can be easily mapped to use an alternate mapped ports - but is only for future SGX softs and not backwards compatible existing SGX hucards. Did I mention this would be expensive and will most likely require a separate power supply to this card?

 Well, it's not entirely true that you can't do an SGX as a card addon. You could do both VDC's on the cart, and redirect original VDC read/writes to one of the primary VDC on the cart, and VCE/VPC/VDC#2 address writes to those on the card too. No need for analog mixing as you have all the digital pixel data you need right there. And the original VDC, since it has the same settings as the duplicate, still generates the interrupts you need and on the right vector (no SGX soft that I know of uses interrupts from the second VDC. There's no need to). So that means you need to have a VCE, 2xVDC, VPC on the cart. And, you need to find some way of syncing *ALL* of these chips with the VCE and VDC of the original console (because you need scanline interrupts to match up). That means running the composite output to the cart for the initial sync and any resync'ing. Oh and the last condition is: you can't read vram from the second/SGX VDC. As long as no game does this, then it'll be fine (I don't see why they *would* read vram back into main ram, but you never know with devs. The cool thing is, is that you only have like 5 games to test to see if this is the case). Reading from vram of the primary VDC is not a problem, because you're reading the duplicated data inside the original VDC. This card would probably still require an external PS. And yes, that would be expensive still. And 2 or 3 fast fpga's. The VPC and VCE can easily be combined into a single chip since they don't do very much. Probably condense the 2 VDCs into a single chip as well.

 

Remember a while back we were talking about how for some reason some games no longer worked with certain hardware combinations after grounding pin#29 on the Hu6280? I think it was the SuperCDROM2 when combined with a SGX that didn't work with some random games. Does anyone have the slightest idea WTF that happens?

It's not the SGX. It's the Super CDROM^2 unit itself (though the SGX *does* have this yellow wire modification inside the console, going to the back plane to the cart port. Might be this pin specific pin? Maybe not all SGX's got this mod from the factory?). I have a PCE and tested it on the unit. Came up with the same problems. Bubble Gum Crash had problems detecting BRAM (didn't see it, IIRC). The tototek card totally fails though with the SUPER CDROM^2 unit. It'll corrupt BRAM if a flashed hucard tries to access it. Lost all my save files because of this But the ACD Pro, the Super CD 3.0 card, Tonoke back up card, all have no problems accessing BRAM on that unit regardless of what main system is attached. Definitely weird.

The Tototek card: This thing is not famous for its reliability and ease of use, even though its made by rather experienced guys. I'd gladly buy a System Card 4.0 for any reasonable price (say, less than $200) but is has to actually work...more or less perfectly. No proprietary software that doesn't run half the time, thank you, and I don't even own a machine on it with a parallel port so fuck that shit.

It's been very reliable for me. And very easy to use the programming software (just a gui where you pick roms, add cheats, enabled bit swapping, etc). It's finding a system and setting up the parallel port that's always been a bitch. It took a bit of messing with bios to get it to work on this motherboard. I could not get it to work on another tower I had, regardless of the settings. USB interface would be sooo much better though.

[nectarsis]

Remember a while back we were talking about how for some reason some games no longer worked with certain hardware combinations after grounding pin#29 on the Hu6280? I think it was the SuperCDROM2 when combined with a SGX that didn't work with some random games. Does anyone have the slightest idea WTF that happens?

It's not the SGX. It's the Super CDROM^2 unit itself (though the SGX *does* have this yellow wire modification inside the console, going to the back plane to the cart port. Might be this pin specific pin? Maybe not all SGX's got this mod from the factory?). I have a PCE and tested it on the unit. Came up with the same problems. Bubble Gum Crash had problems detecting BRAM (didn't see it, IIRC). The tototek card totally fails though with the SUPER CDROM^2 unit. It'll corrupt BRAM if a flashed hucard tries to access it. Lost all my save files because of this But the ACD Pro, the Super CD 3.0 card, Tonoke back up card, all have no problems accessing BRAM on that unit regardless of what main system is attached. Definitely weird.

I thought there was mention of this "breaking" Aldynes, maybe a couple others that became unplayable, or other issues?

[TurboXray]

I don't why it would cause problems with Aldynes. Does Aldynes try to save your hi-score to BRAM? That would be the only thing I can think of and even then. Actually, I've never heard of it having any problems with any SGX games (the SCD^2 unit attached to the SGX, that is). No have I had any with SGX games in that combo.

[shubibiman]

Ohh... Well, the setup I was talking about wouldn't be that expensive as long you don't mind it looking like this:

 Which I don't. Anything more fancy like a real looking hucard is going to be more expensive.

I personally wouldn't mind at all if it looked like that.

[Arkhan Asylum]

hey tom where did that card come from?  Googled the name on the card and didn't get anything useful!

That thing looks pretty interesting.

[esteban]

hey tom where did that card come from?  Googled the name on the card and didn't get anything useful!

That thing looks pretty interesting.

It is an old prototype for TurboBlodia, which was a file utility (32K for game data) + deluxe upgraded version of Blodia (apparently, Blodia is very popular with Japanese PCE enthusiasts). It has a level editor, so you can design and save your own boards in Blodia.

Pretty kool.

[TurboXray]

hey tom where did that card come from?  Googled the name on the card and didn't get anything useful!

That thing looks pretty interesting.

Memblers is his name (he posts regularly on nesdev forums). He manufactured quite a few of these. I talked with him about doing a two socket version (on for SRAM, but it'd have to be a different socket). And that the one in that pick only supports 4meg games. But it looks pretty decent. Much better than the tototek card.

[SignOfZeta]

hey tom where did that card come from?  Googled the name on the card and didn't get anything useful!

That thing looks pretty interesting.

It is an old prototype for TurboBlodia, which was a file utility (32K for game data) + deluxe upgraded version of Blodia (apparently, Blodia is very popular with Japanese PCE enthusiasts). It has a level editor, so you can design and save your own boards in Blodia.

Pretty kool.

Holy fucking crap that's so awesome.

[Arkhan Asylum]

does he do bulk-sales of them doodads or what?

[OldMan]

I searched around, and found the schematics for something much like the membler board (it might even BE the membler board), so now I have a few questions for you electrical gurus:
1) Assuming I want to build one of these, -and- I find a compatible (but much larger) prom chip, how big (in K) could I go? I don't want to add a lot of stuff to the basic layout, but I would like about 8Mb ( or larger )
2) Would I have to add RAM to it? I *think* the turbo has 8K built in, so if I can keep all the data in that space, would I be 'good to go' ?
3) (And don't laugh) Could this be modified so that one end is for the us tg-16, and the other end is for a japanese system ? Would I have to add the region check code if all I want to do is hook the data lines up in reverse on the other end ?
 Thank in advance for any and all help with this. I -really- want to produce a game on an authentic-looking HuCard, and any help is appreciated.

[guyjin]

3) (And don't laugh) Could this be modified so that one end is for the us tg-16, and the other end is for a japanese system ? Would I have to add the region check code if all I want to do is hook the data lines up in reverse on the other end ?

I think the answer is yes. the region check code was something that was added to (some?) American hucards; if the software is being written by fans, they'd have no reason to include it. the only thing I worry about is whether one end or the other should have a cover, since handling it while it is on could be bad.

[cosmos99]

A new system card would be great sure ,would you consider also building an action replay wich is sadly missing to the system ?