London Metropolitan Police raid Nation of Islam Mosque!!

[rag-time4]

Very surprised to stumble across this on youtube today! The police department is saying that they believed that the building was being used as a cannabis factory and they had no idea the building was a Mosque! Despite the large bright red sign!

[OldRover]

Not everyone understands a bright red sign, even if it's large. So, was it being used as a cannabis factory or not? And is this only "news" because it's about Islam?

[rag-time4]

Not everyone understands a bright red sign, even if it's large. So, was it being used as a cannabis factory or not? And is this only "news" because it's about Islam?

According to the london daily news no drugs were found whatsoever.

[Joe Redifer]

The "Nation of Islam" isn't even real Islam. Just like Mormons aren't real Christians.  What they are are racist.  How many white Nation of Islam members are there?

"White people are potential humans...they haven't evolved yet."

That's nice.  Thank you.  I love you, too.

[Keranu]

I'm interested in knowing what lead police to even think cannabis was being grown there.

Either way, the church didn't deserve it and cannabis needs to be legalized. 

[rag-time4]

The "Nation of Islam" isn't even real Islam. Just like Mormons aren't real Christians.  What they are are racist.  How many white Nation of Islam members are there?

"White people are potential humans…they haven’t evolved yet."

That's nice.  Thank you.  I love you, too.

How many descendants of slaves have been able to form their own independent nation on the North American continent, free from the constitution that sanctioned their suffering? The slaves have never really been 'freed' as they have always been subject to a legal document crafted by whites and for the benefit of whites.

I tried to find the full article with the Minister's quote that you posted Joe, but couldn't do it. What I can say about it is that it comes from a perspective 1) that truly being a human being is a high standard to strive for, 2) that white people have only been on the planet for 6,000 years and have not been able to develop a society that can coexist indefinitely with nature without destroying nature and the foundation of life itself, and 3) that black people are most likely potential humans as well, and who need to be raised up to a high standard of humanity as well.

[Joe Redifer]

That quote is from the Philadelphia Inquirer, 3/18/00.

Slaves have never been freed?  What the shit is this?  That must be some pretty tasty Kool-Aid you're drinkin'.  Wait, let me guess... they aren't fully free until retributions have been paid!

Bottom line is this:  Blacks have the same freedoms as whites.  If a black person fails at any given thing, it is not because the white man is the oppressor.  That is a huge cop-out.  "It's not my fault!".  Sure, many hurdles are tougher, mainly due to $$$ reasons.  But success is still absolutely possible.  And sure, all man may have descended from Africa, but I don't see how that makes any difference in anything.

Nation o' Islam does not believe that whites are worthy to be evangelized, and thus does not accept them into the Nation o' Islam.

The NOI believes that black people purposely created white people through selective breeding.  I guess they thought "We need some white people 'round here".  Blaming white people for any inadequacies is the same as blaming black people, since black people created white people.  I don't understand their attitude of "us vs them".  But I do enjoy Damon Wayans' impersonation of the rambling, nonsensical Farrakhan.

[rag-time4]

That quote is from the Philadelphia Inquirer, 3/18/00.

Slaves have never been freed?  What the shit is this?  That must be some pretty tasty Kool-Aid you're drinkin'.  Wait, let me guess... they aren't fully free until retributions have been paid!

Bottom line is this:  Blacks have the same freedoms as whites.  If a black person fails at any given thing, it is not because the white man is the oppressor.  That is a huge cop-out.  "It's not my fault!".  Sure, many hurdles are tougher, mainly due to $$$ reasons.  But success is still absolutely possible.  And sure, all man may have descended from Africa, but I don't see how that makes any difference in anything.

Nation o' Islam does not believe that whites are worthy to be evangelized, and thus does not accept them into the Nation o' Islam.

The NOI believes that black people purposely created white people through selective breeding.  I guess they thought "We need some white people 'round here".  I don't understand their attitude of "us vs them".

Can you post the text of the article from 3/18/00 that the quote was alledgedly taken from?

What was the extent of black participation as far as crafting the constitution that they were forced to live under?

If the London Nation of Islam mosque fails now to provide education to the youth, can you say the oppression of the white police played no role?

And what about Oscar Grant, the young man killed by the BART cop on New Years, 2009. He failed to make it home. Can't blame the cop, though, for Grant's failure.

The Nation of Islam believes that one black man was responsible for making white people (it was not a project of black people generally). His purpose was to create a new kind of man who could rule over the original black man.

I'm interested in knowing what lead police to even think cannabis was being grown there.

Either way, the church didn't deserve it and cannabis needs to be legalized. 

Even though the UK is supposedly a democratic country these days, I would imagine that the police department is probably not transparent when it comes to revealing its sources of false information...

[Joe Redifer]

The Philidelphia Inquirer's online database doesn't seem to go that far back, but put that quote into Google.

What was the extent of black participation as far as crafting the constitution that they were forced to live under?

I counter that with a question of my own:  What about the Constitution would you change?  To that extent, why didn't Latinos, American Indians, and any other type of immigrant get a direct say?  Even today, blacks comprise less than 13% of all Americans.  Yet if they get a job they are condemned for working for a white man's corporation.  Solution:  All black people need to own their own businesses.

If the London Nation of Islam mosque fails now to provide education to the youth, can you say the oppression of the white police played no role?

I don't purport to know anything about that particular mosque.  Does it double as a school?  What kind of education does it provide?  Can you prove that white people went in there with the intention of shutting down the mosque?  What would be their motive, other than they they just want to oppress people for fun?  Because, somehow, the black race is a threat to them?  Since they found no drugs I don't think the operation of the mosque will be affected.  I chalk it up to bad police work.  Also, are only white people allowed to join the police?  Not everything that happens has a racial motive, you know.  The NAACP is just as bad... nothing is coincidence, everything is racist to them.

And what about Oscar Grant, the young man killed by the BART cop on New Years, 2009. He failed to make it home. Can't blame the cop, though, for Grant's failure.

I don't know about that particular case.  Racism does exist, but it is not present every time a white cop shoots a black person.  Believe it or not, black people can be racist, too.  But if Oscar Grant was innocent, then it was not his failure.  However that does not mean he was the victim of a giant white conspiracy.

The Nation of Islam believes that one black man was responsible for making white people ... His purpose was to create a new kind of man who could rule over the original black man.

Well, then he was a very successful black man since white people have only one goal in mind: Oppress the black man.  It's all we care about, really.    When I am driving down the street with my white friends and we see a black guy walking around, we pull over to make sure that he is nowhere near approaching his potential.  A white man's heaven is a black man's hell, after all (another quote from Farrakhan, I believe).     But even so, I fail to see how this is even logical.  One man breeds white people, which would take generations upon generations.  And he breeds them for the sole purpose of being the oppressor.  Why would their color matter?  Did this same guy breed Asian people to invent and engineer small electronics?  What was his goal in breeding Latinos and Native Americans?  And why oh why did he make the French?   

[rag-time4]

The Philidelphia Inquirer's online database doesn't seem to go that far back, but put that quote into Google.

What was the extent of black participation as far as crafting the constitution that they were forced to live under?

I counter that with a question of my own:  What about the Constitution would you change?  To that extent, why didn't Latinos, American Indians, and any other type of immigrant get a direct say?  Even today, blacks comprise less than 13% of all Americans.  Yet if they get a job they are condemned for working for a white man's corporation.  Solution:  All black people need to own their own businesses.

If the London Nation of Islam mosque fails now to provide education to the youth, can you say the oppression of the white police played no role?

I don't purport to know anything about that particular mosque.  Does it double as a school?  What kind of education does it provide?  Can you prove that white people went in there with the intention of shutting down the mosque?  What would be their motive, other than they they just want to oppress people for fun?  Because, somehow, the black race is a threat to them?  Since they found no drugs I don't think the operation of the mosque will be affected.  I chalk it up to bad police work.  Also, are only white people allowed to join the police?  Not everything that happens has a racial motive, you know.  The NAACP is just as bad... nothing is coincidence, everything is racist to them.

And what about Oscar Grant, the young man killed by the BART cop on New Years, 2009. He failed to make it home. Can't blame the cop, though, for Grant's failure.

I don't know about that particular case.  Racism does exist, but it is not present every time a white cop shoots a black person.  Believe it or not, black people can be racist, too.  But if Oscar Grant was innocent, then it was not his failure.  However that does not mean he was the victim of a giant white conspiracy.

The Nation of Islam believes that one black man was responsible for making white people ... His purpose was to create a new kind of man who could rule over the original black man.

Well, then he was a very successful black man since white people have only one goal in mind: Oppress the black man.  It's all we care about, really.    When I am driving down the street with my white friends and we see a black guy walking around, we pull over to make sure that he is nowhere near approaching his potential.  A white man's heaven is a black man's hell, after all (another quote from Farrakhan, I believe).     But even so, I fail to see how this is even logical.  One man breeds white people, which would take generations upon generations.  And he breeds them for the sole purpose of being the oppressor.  Why would their color matter?  Did this same guy breed Asian people to invent and engineer small electronics?  What was his goal in breeding Latinos and Native Americans?  And why oh why did he make the French?   

I noticed that you chose not to answer my questions directly.

Firstly, black people played an extremely minimal role in crafting the constitution, and those who were enslaved had no say at all. Then, with the passage of the thirteenth amendment, slaves were "freed" but still subject to the jurisdiction of the constitution that they (formerly enslaved) had no part in crafting. How can you be considered "free" if you are bound to submit to someone else's legal system?

In this context, you may not understand an "us vs them" mentality, but I understand it.

The Nation of Islam believes that all people should have freedom, justice, and equality.

Stories like the London police raid show that freedom (of religious worship and assembly) and justice (ransacking a building on false pretense) are yet to be attained, though if you were to say that police are out of control in general and tend to mistreat everyone, I would have to agree... though I do certainly feel that black people and other 'people of color' tend to get it far, far worse than white people when it comes to police abuse.

[Joe Redifer]

Like I asked, what would you change about the Constitution?  What about it displeases you other than the fact that white peeps didn't directly ask black people for their direct input?  How would one go about that, anyway?  I know of no one person or group of people who can represent all black people, though idiots like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson sure try.  The NAACP tries, too.  Your claim that blacks aren't free because they had no part in creating the Constitution is ridiculous.  I didn't have part in crafting it, either, so therefore I am not free.  In fact, only the founding fathers are truly free.

I truly believe that the NOI and NAACP do more to harbor racism than to abolish it.  They are their own greatest enemy.  There are many whites who are racist, yes.  But white people as a whole?  That's just incredibly stupid and quite offensive.  Like I said, black people can be racist, too.  Just because they are black doesn't make their racism OK.  I rank the NOI right up there with Scientology.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I'm interested in knowing what lead police to even think cannabis was being grown there.

Maybe they saw you walking out of the place?

I had to do it! Sorry >_O



anyway, anyone who thinks one color created another color is a dumbass and needs to learn him some science. 

[Joe Redifer]

It's not hard to believe we all originated from basically the same geographic regions, but color is more based on environment and takes hundreds if not thousands of years to change without cross breeding.  But if there were no white people to cross breed with, then WTF?  I guess you could selectively breed light-skinned blacks over a few dozen generations, but would that give them the natural desire to build castles, submit to a king and queen and enslave them some foreigners?

Cannabis should be legalized, though I'd never use it.  I have plenty o' fun without it.

[rag-time4]

Like I asked, what would you change about the Constitution?  What about it displeases you other than the fact that white peeps didn't directly ask black people for their direct input?  How would one go about that, anyway?  I know of no one person or group of people who can represent all black people, though idiots like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson sure try.  The NAACP tries, too.  Your claim that blacks aren't free because they had no part in creating the Constitution is ridiculous.  I didn't have part in crafting it, either, so therefore I am not free.  In fact, only the founding fathers are truly free.

I truly believe that the NOI and NAACP do more to harbor racism than to abolish it.  They are their own greatest enemy.  There are many whites who are racist, yes.  But white people as a whole?  That's just incredibly stupid and quite offensive.  Like I said, black people can be racist, too.  Just because they are black doesn't make their racism OK.  I rank the NOI right up there with Scientology.

How can you say that my claim that the slaves weren't truly freed is rediculous? Free in theory, yes, as long as they submit to another nation's laws. Real freedom would entail being able to craft their own flag, their own legal system, their own economic system, etc. If black people decide to become communist, for example, they may be subject to assassination at the hands of the american government, such as Fred Hampton and Mark Clark.

The difference between black slaves and with you and I is that the slaves were captured and brought here against their will, while we as whites are more likely to have been descendant from immigrants. To capture a large group of people, then to release them in a land that is not their land of national origin, then force them to abide by laws and cultural norms that may be foreign to their own ancestral laws and cultural norms is not giving them freedom.

White people are not required for cross breeding, because black people contain all of the recessive genetic characteristics of whites in their genetic makeup. Therefore you can slectively breed those who come out with recessive characteristics.

I'm interested in knowing what lead police to even think cannabis was being grown there.

Maybe they saw you walking out of the place?

I had to do it! Sorry >_O



anyway, anyone who thinks one color created another color is a dumbass and needs to learn him some science. 

You can certainly breed other mammals to produce specific characteristics, why not humans?

[Joe Redifer]

So you are saying that the law should not apply to black people?  Again, that is ridiculous.  If anyone feels that way, they are free to leave the country (unless, of course, you were an asshole criminal and decided to break laws to begin with because you feel that they do not apply to you).  Good luck with that as most other countries are much less desirable places to live, especially in Africa.  In fact, what you have said is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.  Yes, black people were brought here by force.  Nobody condones that.  But to say that all of their ancestors are not truly free is indeed ridiculous (beyond, actually).  I am not truly free, either, as I cannot gather a group of 3/4 German 1/4 French people like myself and create our own flag, laws and economic system.  As for becoming communists, I don't think the extreme reaction to such a think had any color boundaries.  You think white people didn't get the shaft when certain government people thought they were commies?  Also, what happens when a black cop shoots a black suspect?  Is it still the white man's fault because the black man is working for the white man or some nonsense like that?

Yes, you can breed dogs.  But dogs are ready to reproduce at less than a year old so it goes much, much faster yet still takes a very long time.  Humans have to be 13 or 14 years old before they can safely reproduce.  One man could not do this.  To think he could flies in the face of logic.  Also, he must have been a very powerful single man if he could control a whole bunch of people for this long just to do this.  I am positive that no science was involved in this idiotic theory.

OK that's enough for now.  Let's have a discussion next time about how the stork brings babies or something else that is solved with simple common sense.

[rag-time4]

So you are saying that the law should not apply to black people?  Again, that is ridiculous.  If anyone feels that way, they are free to leave the country (unless, of course, you were an asshole criminal and decided to break laws to begin with because you feel that they do not apply to you).  Good luck with that as most other countries are much less desirable places to live, especially in Africa.  In fact, what you have said is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.  Yes, black people were brought here by force.  Nobody condones that.  But to say that all of their ancestors are not truly free is indeed ridiculous (beyond, actually).  I am not truly free, either, as I cannot gather a group of 3/4 German 1/4 French people like myself and create our own flag, laws and economic system.  As for becoming communists, I don't think the extreme reaction to such a think had any color boundaries.  You think white people didn't get the shaft when certain government people thought they were commies?  Also, what happens when a black cop shoots a black suspect?  Is it still the white man's fault because the black man is working for the white man or some nonsense like that?

Yes, you can breed dogs.  But dogs are ready to reproduce at less than a year old so it goes much, much faster yet still takes a very long time.  Humans have to be 13 or 14 years old before they can safely reproduce.  One man could not do this.  To think he could flies in the face of logic.  Also, he must have been a very powerful single man if he could control a whole bunch of people for this long just to do this.  I am positive that no science was involved in this idiotic theory.

OK that's enough for now.  Let's have a discussion next time about how the stork brings babies or something else that is solved with simple common sense.

I'm not saying "the law" shouldn't apply to black people. I'm saying that white people capturing black people and forcing them to live under laws established by whites does not make black people free.

[turbogrfxfan]

blacks cant take the credit for making white people aliens are.  Thats why whites cant coexist with nature.j/k thats such bs.   I met farakkan in his home in arizona cause i did work there.  he was very nice  just like any white racist would be to a black mans face. the thing about the constitution being for whites is a crock of shit! please sounds like some b/s out of a spike lee film. like remember a few years back black people were saying blacks cant be racist. yeah ok, move your ass to nyc and say that.  I dont think the london police are a a racist gang busting up places of warship for shits and giggles. them saying it was for pot may be just a cover. it sounds to outlandish. its modern london its not alabama in the fifties.   lol this is also funny. ok I understand blacks being forced here but they are long ass dead. has nothing to do with now.  every race or people were slaved, rapped etc... get over it

[rag-time4]

Here's an update to the story, from telegraph.co.uk:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7906443/Nation-of-Islam-mosque-seeks-compensation-after-accidental-drugs-raid.html

The photo in the story does not appear to be a photo of the interior of the mosque in question.

To Turbo: I didn't say that "whites can't coexist with nature".... I did say that we have thus far failed to develop a society (large-scale social organization) capable of doing so. It certainly doesn't have to be that way, but resource extraction, industrial production, and environmental damage will be tough to overturn without unseating some very powerful people and institutions.

[turbogrfxfan]

Here's an update to the story, from telegraph.co.uk:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7906443/Nation-of-Islam-mosque-seeks-compensation-after-accidental-drugs-raid.html

The photo in the story does not appear to be a photo of the interior of the mosque in question.

To Turbo: I didn't say that "whites can't coexist with nature".... I did say that we have thus far failed to develop a society (large-scale social organization) capable of doing so. It certainly doesn't have to be that way, but resource extraction, industrial production, and environmental damage will be tough to overturn without unseating some very power people and institutions.

i was just joking   but i agree with you 100 percent

[Arkhan Asylum]

if blacks made whites, why is it that whites were in houses/advancing technology/etc. while blacks were still running around being tribal

and getting enslaved and brought here?


Did they set this all up to torture themselves?

[turbogrfxfan]

if blacks made whites, why is it that whites were in houses/advancing technology/etc. while blacks were still running around being tribal

and getting enslaved and brought here?




Did they set this all up to torture themselves?

lol why in the hell would someone make someone to rule over them? yunno how many generations it would take to do that? it couldnt be just one guy. and then what? he fd up and made a mexican and he didnt know what to do with it so he jumped on a boat sailed to a new world that nobody knew about and dropped him off so noone would find out about it?

[Joe Redifer]

Did they set this all up to torture themselves?

According to the Nation of Islam, it was one black guy who created whites.  I guess he felt that only whites could rule and enslave.  I think most will agree that whites are physically weaker, so why he would choose to "create" a weaker race to rule is beyond my comprehension.  But again, it's all fairy tales from the Nation o' Islam.

[CrackTiger]

How can you be considered "free" if you are bound to submit to someone else's legal system?

Because they are free to leave and choose any other society to live in. They're also free to vote to to change the "legal system" and/or anything else in the society they're currently in. They're also free to say anything they want. America and Canada are free countries and nobody's forcing you to stay. Whatever the law of the land is, at this point it is what it is, even though it's constantly evolving. The human world isn't perfect, but you don't get any "free-er" than having an equal say in your country and the freedom to come and go as you please. Even "if" the law of the land was inherently "racist" or prejudiced (in the States it kinda is with gay rights), no one has to submit to anything because they are free to go.

How can you say that my claim that the slaves weren't truly freed is rediculous? Free in theory, yes, as long as they submit to another nation's laws. Real freedom would entail being able to craft their own flag, their own legal system, their own economic system, etc. If black people decide to become communist, for example, they may be subject to assassination at the hands of the american government, such as Fred Hampton and Mark Clark.

They are every bit as free as the so-called white people that are largely responsible for forming America, to go to another land and commit genocide and/or whatever else it takes to seize control and craft their own flag, their own legal system, their own economic system, etc. It's not like "white people" were born inherently free and everything landed in their lap. But everyone born in North America is more or less as free as any humans on the planet today. So-called "black people" are free to come to Canada and not only join our many current communist parties or form their own, but they are also free to vote for them at the federal level. And if your description of a genocidal America is even remotely accurate, then they will have no problem quickly gaining full citizenship here.

Humans in general don't even have the right to claim ownership of the land and enslave and murder animals and destroy the landscape. It's something they do by choice at the expense of everything in their path (including other humans). You may want a specific group of humans to be free to be as guilty as the rest for taking what they want, but they already are as free as others to do so since it's a self-created "right".

And what about Oscar Grant, the young man killed by the BART cop on New Years, 2009. He failed to make it home. Can't blame the cop, though, for Grant's failure.

When you blame the actions of a single person on an entire race, whether or not that single person was motivated by racism them self, you are being truly racist. Especially when it comes to the wide range of enthicities that fall under the banner of "white".

That kind of police brutality happens regularly in Canada and society in general condemns it. A man in this Province was arrested for drinking a beer outside a hockey rink and in the jail cell block at the local police station while unarmed and face down, an officer shot him in the back of the head. Is that an indication of the lack of true freedom that [insert race of choice] has in our society?

As long as a person is lost in a skewed world view that pits specific races against each other, they'll never be free of the racist society of their own creation.

[OldRover]

Freedom is a myth. No one is free.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Freedom is a myth. No one is free.

FIGHT THE POWAH.

*raises fist*

[Joe Redifer]

The whole "no one is free" thing usually revolves around the concept of money/currency.  Like some song says: "You're a slave to the money and then you die".  This is very true.  Nothing on the planet is as powerful as the concept of money.  But at the same time how can we have a productive society without it?  Greed drives people and gives people incentive to work.  "I want that phiggidy new TV, so I will get a job".  But that concept doesn't really make me lose any sleep.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Id rather be a slave to money, than be a broke ass caveman running around naked trying to catch a fuckin rabbit so I can eat back in my smelly cave with my cave-hoe that has no deodorant / feminine products and thus smells like rotting doom.

Bring on the phiggidy jiggidy televisions and order some take out chinese foods.  Slave it up. 

[Joe Redifer]

Even if you were a broke-ass caveman, you still aren't free.  Why not?  Because you need food and water to survive so you are a slave to them as well.  It's good to be a slave!

Justifying slavery.  It's what I do.

[OldRover]

No matter what you do, you're always answering to someone or something higher on the chain than you. You are therefore never free.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Even if you were a broke-ass caveman, you still aren't free.  Why not?  Because you need food and water to survive so you are a slave to them as well.  It's good to be a slave!

Justifying slavery.  It's what I do.

I AM A SLAVE TO BIOLOGY.  MY BODY MAKES ME DO STUFF.

DAMNIT.

[turbogrfxfan]

Id rather be a slave to money, than be a broke ass caveman running around naked trying to catch a fuckin rabbit so I can eat back in my smelly cave with my cave-hoe that has no deodorant / feminine products and thus smells like rotting doom.

Bring on the phiggidy jiggidy televisions and order some take out chinese foods.  Slave it up. 

ahhh haaaa thats the best!!    for me i kinda do what i wanna do.  alot of the stuff that is against the law is morrally wrong. so most the time i dont break the law.  as far as money, i work to live not live to work.  ill never be a slave to money like mc jagger said

[Ceti Alpha]

Wow! This NOI stuff is better than the crazy Nazi business with white man being created from lightning from God - or something like that. lol

Skin colour is due to genetic drift. Humans need vitamin D, but melanin in our eyes and skin acts as a filter. So, because melanin acts as a filter humans in northern regions have lighter skin containing less melanin, which allows us to take in more vitamin D when there isn't much sunlight. Southern regions have darker skinned people because they need to filter out the UV rays from the intense sun. That's why blacks used to get rickets when they first started migrating to northern regions. They weren't getting enough vitamin D from the sun. It's also why whites are more prone to skin cancer - we don't have as much melanin to filter out the UV rays. One isn't better than the other and there are, in fact, more differences within so-called "races" than between.

This type of crap is precisely why religion pisses me off. It promotes ignorant BS as divine truth and perpetuates myths, which in turn perpetuates hate.

This makes me laugh. Though I laughed so hard I lost my moral "barometer". That's fine though - I found my compass.

[turbogrfxfan]

Wow! This NOI stuff is better than the crazy Nazi business with white man being created from lightning from God - or something like that. lol

Skin colour is due to genetic drift. Humans need vitamin D, but melanin in our eyes and skin acts as a filter. So, because melanin acts as a filter humans in northern regions have lighter skin containing less melanin, which allows us to take in more vitamin D when there isn't much sunlight. Southern regions have darker skinned people because they need to filter out the UV rays from the intense sun. That's why blacks used to get rickets when they first started migrating to northern regions. They weren't getting enough vitamin D from the sun. It's also why whites are more prone to skin cancer - we don't have as much melanin to filter out the UV rays. One isn't better than the other and there are, in fact, more differences within so-called "races" than between.

This type of crap is precisely why religion pisses me off. It promotes ignorant BS as divine truth and perpetuates myths, which in turn perpetuates hate.

This makes me laugh. Though I laughed so hard I lost my moral "barometer". That's fine though - I found my compass.

awesome ceti great info

[Joe Redifer]

This makes me laugh. Though I laughed so hard I lost my moral "barometer". That's fine though - I found my compass.

Ha!  That's great.  I love it when people believe that there is no way atheists can have good morals.  I usually argue that atheists choose their morals based on their own sense of right and wrong, not what religion tells them is right and wrong.

[OldRover]

Steve Harvey is a total fool... always has been, always will be.

[turbogrfxfan]

Steve Harvey is a total fool... always has been, always will be.

lol he bites.  not funny at all.  and whose his friend?cedric the entertainer? nice!

[rag-time4]

if blacks made whites, why is it that whites were in houses/advancing technology/etc. while blacks were still running around being tribal

and getting enslaved and brought here?


Did they set this all up to torture themselves?

Firstly, to say that blacks were "running around and being tribal" makes a mockery of African history, even "sub-saharan" Africa. Prior to European contact and colonization of west Africa, centralized empires had began to develop after contact with Muslims. I would recommend taking at least a glance at a couple of wiki pages on the topic for quick reading: Songhai Empire and Timbuktu. Timbuktu, as the page says, "is assumed to have had one of the first universities in the world."

If you're into books on the subject, I would recommend checking out They came before Columbus: The African presence in Ancient America

Secondly, to respond to the other parts of your question, the "why" and the "was it to torture themselves?"....

As we are taught by the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the making of the white race was not a project undertaken by "black people in general" or even by any group of aurhorities (people in power) of that time....

According to the Nation of Islam, it was one black guy who created whites.  I guess he felt that only whites could rule and enslave.  I think most will agree that whites are physically weaker, so why he would choose to "create" a weaker race to rule is beyond my comprehension.  But again, it's all fairy tales from the Nation o' Islam.

It was not one black guy who made the white race, but it was one black man who came up with the idea to make the white race, who subsequently attracted followers and developed an institution which finished the process. As Joe argued earlier in the thread, it would take a long time from start to finish to complete the selective breeding process necessary.

The Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us that the process took 600 years, of which Yakub, the black man who started the process, only lived to see a portion of.

I'll quote from the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad's book, Message to the Blackman in America, pages 110 to 111 (text bolded):

According to the word of Allah to me, 'Mr. Yakub was seen by the twenty-three Scientists of the black nation, over 15,000 years ago. They predicted that in the year 8,400 (what was in our calendar year before this world of the white race), this man (Yakub) would be born twenty miles from the present Holy City, Mecca, Arabia. And, that at the time of his birth, the satisfaction and dissatisfaction of the people would be: - 70 per cent satisfied, 30 per cent dissatisfied.'

And, that when this man is born, he will change civilization (the world), and produce a new race of people, who would rule the original black nation for 6,000 years (from the nine thousandth year to the fifteen thousandth year).

After that time, the original black nation would give birth to one, whose wisdom, Knowledge and power would be infinite. One, whom the world would recognize as being the greatest and mightiest God, since the creation of the universe. And, that He would destroy Yakub's world and restore the original nation, or ancient nation, into power to rule forever.

...

Mr Yakub was, naturally, born out of the 30 per cent dissatisfied. As we know, wherever there is a longing or demand for a change, nature will produce that man, who will bring it about.

-----

At this point I would like to break from the discussion to question Joe: What was your original motivation in deliberately insulting my religious beliefs? (Nation of Islam isn't real Islam, they are racists)

I posted this thread to share the news of the London Mosque being raided, or as it turns out, having its door broken, by London police. I didn't originally post it to discuss my religious beliefs or black history, though both topics are certainly important to me. If Ceti Alpha, for example, posted a news story about an atheist organization being raided by police, I wouldn't respond to the post by insulting his atheist beliefs, no matter how I feel about them!

Also, I don't mean to avoid anyones questions or arguments here by any means. I am totally fine with continuing the discussion that has broken out.

[turbogrfxfan]

if blacks made whites, why is it that whites were in houses/advancing technology/etc. while blacks were still running around being tribal

and getting enslaved and brought here?


Did they set this all up to torture themselves?

Firstly, to say that blacks were "running around and being tribal" makes a mockery of African history, even "sub-saharan" Africa. Prior to European contact and colonization of west Africa, centralized empires had began to develop after contact with Muslims. I would recommend taking at least a glance at a couple of wiki pages on the topic for quick reading: Songhai Empire and Timbuktu. Timbuktu, as the page says, "is assumed to have had one of the first universities in the world."

If you're into books on the subject, I would recommend checking out They came before Columbus: The African presence in Ancient America

Secondly, to respond to the other parts of your question, the "why" and the "was it to torture themselves?"....

As we are taught by the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the making of the white race was not a project undertaken by "black people in general" or even by any group of aurhorities (people in power) of that time....

According to the Nation of Islam, it was one black guy who created whites.  I guess he felt that only whites could rule and enslave.  I think most will agree that whites are physically weaker, so why he would choose to "create" a weaker race to rule is beyond my comprehension.  But again, it's all fairy tales from the Nation o' Islam.

It was not one black guy who made the white race, but it was one black man who came up with the idea to make the white race, who subsequently attracted followers and developed an institution which finished the process. As Joe argued earlier in the thread, it would take a long time from start to finish to complete the selective breeding process necessary.

The Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad teaches us that the process took 600 years, of which Yakub, the black man who started the process, only lived to see a portion of.

I'll quote from the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad's book, Message to the Blackman in America, pages 110 to 111 (text bolded):

According to the word of Allah to me, 'Mr. Yakub was seen by the twenty-three Scientists of the black nation, over 15,000 years ago. They predicted that in the year 8,400 (what was in our calendar year before this world of the white race), this man (Yakub) would be born twenty miles from the present Holy City, Mecca, Arabia. And, that at the time of his birth, the satisfaction and dissatisfaction of the people would be: - 70 per cent satisfied, 30 per cent dissatisfied.'

And, that when this man is born, he will change civilization (the world), and produce a new race of people, who would rule the original black nation for 6,000 years (from the nine thousandth year to the fifteen thousandth year).

After that time, the original black nation would give birth to one, whose wisdom, Knowledge and power would be infinite. One, whom the world would recognize as being the greatest and mightiest God, since the creation of the universe. And, that He would destroy Yakub's world and restore the original nation, or ancient nation, into power to rule forever.

...

Mr Yakub was, naturally, born out of the 30 per cent dissatisfied. As we know, wherever there is a longing or demand for a change, nature will produce that man, who will bring it about.

-----

At this point I would like to break from the discussion to question Joe: What was your original motivation in deliberately insulting my religious beliefs? (Nation of Islam isn't real Islam, they are racists)

I posted this thread to share the news of the London Mosque being raided, or as it turns out, having its door broken, by London police. I didn't originally post it to discuss my religious beliefs or black history, though both topics are certainly important to me. If Ceti Alpha, for example, posted a news story about an atheist organization being raided by police, I wouldn't respond to the post by insulting his atheist beliefs, no matter how I feel about them!

Also, I don't mean to avoid anyones questions or arguments here by any means. I am totally fine with continuing the discussion that has broken out.

I decided i dont know enough about this to continue.  sorry if i hurt your feelings in any way rags.  were all people and we all believe in different things.  i think were all half alien and in 2012 they will come back and destroy us.  we are who we are and whats awesome that we can put shit aside and be friends regardless of the outside world.

[Joe Redifer]

rag-time4, Nation of Islam, Scientology and The Church of Latter Day Saints all upset me more than other, established religions.  Believe me, even established religions disturb me greatly.  Sometimes I just want to say "Listen to what you are actually saying!"  All 3 religions were established by a single man who wanted power and/or money that results from such a thing (Elijah Muhammad, L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith, respectively).  I am not meaning to insult you personally.  If you were to attempt to insult atheism, I would not take it as a personal insult from you.  I would counter your arguments, but I wouldn't think you had an agenda against me personally. However I am sure that police make stupid moves all over the place.  If they would have busted in to a Jewish Synagogue instead under the same pretenses, would you have posted the story?

Nation of Islam seems to think that whites have a huge hard-on for ruling over blacks.  Farakkhan has said some very controversial things that can easily be construed as racist.  The NAACP jumps all over greeting cards that are not racist in any way and insist that they are.  I know, they are not the same organization, but the point I am trying to make is that if a white man said the same exact things that Farrakhan said only about black people, believe you me everyone would be all up in his ass screaming "racist!"  And they'd be right.  Racism doesn't only work in one direction.  As for Nation of Islam not being real Islam, that also is true.  There are many differences (I can list them if you'd like).  Ask any random Muslim if he (or she) believes that Allah came in the person of Wallace Fard aka The Dishonorable Elijah Muhammad.  Just the same as Christians will not concur that Jesus Christ came and appeared before Joseph Smith in the USA.  Though I should be careful about criticizing Fard/Elijah as I wouldn't want my house to be broken in to, 5 of my children, my 9-day-old grandson and a guest brutally murdered by members of the Nation o' Islam.  Oh wait, that already happened to some guy named Khalifa Hamaas Abdul Khaalis.

[Ceti Alpha]

Rags, I just figured that you were already familiar with my stance on religion. heh. And really I have no issue with religion until it starts spitting out racist, or other potentially harmful rhetoric in the guise of divine truth, and Islam is most certainly not the only religion guilty of this.

As for "atheism", it's a term I reluctantly accept. I just find it odd to identify myself to something I scarcely think about - my disbelief in god. It's not like I believe in my disbelief. And everyone is an "atheist" to one degree or another. Muhammad, Christ, Abraham were all atheists in regards to the Greek and Nordic gods, though if you read the first commandment you might come to a different conclusion - "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me...". What I take out of the first commandment is that god is saying "Yeah, there are these other gods out there, but don't listen to them. Only I speak the truth.", which is sketchy at best. So, I would find it weird to be part of some Atheist organization since, besides the disbelief in god, there is no other overarching atheistic belief system. In fact, a lot of these "new atheists" like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris just piss me off more than anything else. They use atheism to draw in readers and then spout anti-Islam/anti-Arab nonsense trying to justify the illegal occupation of Palestine and other areas in world.

Anyway, you know I don't mean anything personal against you. Now get crackin' on Rtype! *cracks whip*

[Keranu]

I think I have the same religious view as ceti except instead of being atheist I believe in all religions .

[Joe Redifer]

You must have many interesting conversations with yourself, Keranu. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

Firstly, to say that blacks were "running around and being tribal" makes a mockery of African history, even "sub-saharan" Africa. Prior to European contact and colonization of west Africa, centralized empires had began to develop after contact with Muslims. I would recommend taking at least a glance at a couple of wiki pages on the topic for quick reading: Songhai Empire and Timbuktu. Timbuktu, as the page says, "is assumed to have had one of the first universities in the world."

They were running around and being tribal.  Battling, etc.  I took two classes on the stuff, it happened.  They weren't putting on suits, walking out of their homes and waving bye to the missus and trotting off to the office.  They were running around stabbing shit with spears, etc. 

"running around" is a stretch, yes.  They were tribal, primitive... but organized and detailed in everything.   

So my question is why'd they up and go LISTEN GUYS, WE NEED TO MAKE US A WHITE MAN TO CAPTURE US ON SOME BOATS AND MAKE US WORK IN FIELDS AND RAPE OUR WIMINS.    Doesn't make much sense, especially since the reason for various skin colors is biological and based off where you live.  Pale ass Europeans wouldn't fair too good basking in the African sun all day.

Also your book link contradicts the whole thing.  Its about before the white man came and fucked them all up.  If that was them before the white man came, and they never went up to Europe-lands, how did the white man come down?  This makes no sense.  Did they gather in a circle and will a white man and his crew to appear from the shadows and enslave them!?  It's like the stupid Terminator nonsense.  How does John Connor send his dad back in time to make himself?  He didn't.  It makes no sense, and is wrong.  Just like this black mans made the white mans thing. 

Secondly, to respond to the other parts of your question, the "why" and the "was it to torture themselves?"....

As we are taught by the Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the making of the white race was not a project undertaken by "black people in general" or even by any group of aurhorities (people in power) of that time....

Honorable for what?  Being full of shit and annoying?

[Keranu]

You must have many interesting conversations with yourself, Keranu. 

All the time!

[nectarsis]

The difference between black slaves and with you and I is that the slaves were captured and brought here against their will, while we as whites are more likely to have been descendant from immigrants.

Seeing  as the black slaves were enslaved/sold to the white man by OTHER black people (usually a conquering tribe, etc.)...yet WHITEY IS THE DEVIL?  As said before in this thread, racism goes both ways (and sometimes much worse from black to whites) the rhetoric has just gotten old.

I think I have the same religious view as ceti except instead of being atheist I believe in all religions .

I thought you were an ardent follower of Islam as well? 

[Keranu]

I think I have the same religious view as ceti except instead of being atheist I believe in all religions .

I thought you were an ardent follower of Islam as well? 

I am, but I believe all religions and beliefs share truths in one way or another. Personally I find this to be an aspect of Islam, even if it includes religions established after Muhammad. We're all in this bitch known as life together ;) .

[guyjin]

I am, but I believe all religions and beliefs share truths in one way or another. Personally I find this to be an aspect of Islam, even if it includes religions established after Muhammad. We're all in this bitch known as life together ;) .

From everything I know about Islam, that seems like the very opposite of it. But whatever makes you happy

[Senshi]

 

I think I have the same religious view as ceti except instead of being atheist I believe in all religions .

This sounds like flower child hippie crap. You have to at least pick and choose some portions of it because most of them contradict each other in some way (when they aren't contradicting themselves).

Along with what nectarsis said, people just generally treat people like shit no matter what race the other person is. The palastinians and jews are basically of the same origins as far as i'm concerned but they have been killing each other for the last X hundreds of year. Black people in Africa still kill each other. They don't stop because they're black. Maybe if everyone was taught to have a moral center and make decisions (instead of it being handed to them in a book) about right and wrong we wouldn't have all these religious morons telling people to kill in their gods name for economic gain and actually being successful at doing it. Organized religion is about control and agendas and always will be.

[Keranu]

From everything I know about Islam, that seems like the very opposite of it. But whatever makes you happy

Does Islam not bring a sense of unity among people of Abrahamic faiths? Does Allah consider himself to be a separate deity from Judaism and Christianity? Does the Quran not refer to Jews and Christians as "People of the book"? Ask Muslims at your nearest mosque about how they feel about this issue. From my experience, Muslims embrace Jews and Christians as brothers and the mosque I attend holds regular cross religious discussions with nearby churches and synagogues. There's a lot more peace between religions than people take for granted.

This sounds like flower child hippie crap. You have to at least pick and choose some portions of it because most of them contradict each other in some way (when they aren't contradicting themselves).

I do not view religion as literally as you two do. Religion is free to everyone's own interpretation (for good or bad) and if someone like me that believes in a universal harmony between all people, species, and life, why would anyone want to criticize that? I'm promoting peace; should I be a terrorist instead?

I agree with Senshi that organized religion can (and has) been problematic, maybe because it inhibits followers from gathering their own interpretation. Religions generally start off with a good and peaceful cause -- in the case of Muhammad, he risked his life to spread a message that would eventually replace the cruel practices of Quraysh, who brutally owned slaves and buried female babies alive. It wasn't until literally after the death of the prophet that Islam would branch off into different sects, mostly for political reasons. What I'm getting at here is that religion isn't necessarily the problem as people taking advantage of it for their own greed and power are. I really don't believe religion is the primary cause behind Israel/Palestine, Ireland/England, and even North/south Nigeria, etc... Heck some of the biggest pro-Palestine advocates aren't even Muslims (Edward Said, Jimmy Carter, ceti_alpha ).

Everyone has a right to believe and practice what they want, no matter how unscientific or ridiculous it is. I've always admired the Mormons because no matter how hip it is to make fun of them, they have always been able to hold a cool and friendly attitude. Militant atheists convincing believers that their religion is wrong is just as dogmatic as Evangelical Christians proclaiming you're going to hell for not accepting Christ. As long as people aren't harming others, let them believe or disbelieve whatever they want. If we want peace we have to learn to accept differences and move on.

[Joe Redifer]

Except that there ARE lots of people harming others in the name of religion.

I also do not believe in granting people special rights because of their culture or religion.  For example, if a workplace has a certain uniform, someone from Islam should not be able to bypass it and wear the shit that they do (saw a K-Mart employee with lots of garb wrapped around her).