LUNAR The Silver Star PCE Project

Arm · 09/15/2010, 04:53 AM

Hi, this thread follows the conversation about this project, which had begun here :

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=8436.msg146889#msg146889

Arkhan Asylum · 09/15/2010, 02:52 PM

I think it could be done. The cutscenes wouldn't even be hard to implement because the ones from the Silver Star were kind of crapass for the most part.

Alot of times it was a static image that maybe moved its mouth, with the text window still -_- lol.

Arm · 09/15/2010, 03:38 PM

I think the cutscenes would be the easiest part. With better colors and some details corrected or redrawn or 1 or 2 additional cuts for specific cutscene).
What would be more complicated is recreating the maps without reference (btw, I sent you a map via pm) and also to program a game engine and battle engine (I don't have any clue when it comes to program and coding)

So, I guess ripping the graphics from the iso would be a good idea. I've also heard that graphics could also be ripped from brm file (save state) I know that fusion has uncompressed save states which can contain data.

To my knowledge, there doesn't exist a Mega CD emu that allows you to disable layers (only megadrive games). If I really had to, I can do screen captures of the town ingame and copy and paste in photoshop to reassemble the map. The towns in this game aren't very big. But I assume that I would also have to convert the screenshots I create in pce color format before recreating the maps in mapwin.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/15/2010, 04:04 PM

I could just play the game and remake each map as I get to it,

I have an old strategy guide somewhere too! Might help.

Keranu · 09/15/2010, 04:10 PM

Sounds fun! Never thought of the idea of porting Lunar to PCE. It would be great to see the colors get the face lift they deserved since the dithering was pretty yuck.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/15/2010, 04:13 PM

Quote from: Keranu on 09/15/2010, 04:10 PMSounds fun! Never thought of the idea of porting Lunar to PCE. It would be great to see the colors get the face lift they deserved since the dithering was pretty yuck.

hey man that dithering was charming. dont diss on the dithering.

I always did wonder why it never went to PCE. It would've done awesome there.

Arm · 09/15/2010, 04:15 PM

Yes, I remember the orange guide

I also have a japanese guide which is rarer. It was published in Japan in 92 and contains color maps from the game.

"I could just play the game and remake each map as I get to it"
I can send the emu or the image file if you need them

"Sounds fun! Never thought of the idea of porting Lunar to PCE. It would be great to see the colors get the face lift they deserved since the dithering was pretty yuck."

I think it would give a nice result with a good selection of colors and good use of dithering.
Here's another example I had made changing some elements and creating others:

/lunartss2pce.png

lord_cack · 09/15/2010, 06:23 PM

Don't get me wrong, I always love the enthusiasm people get when they talk about ports to the PCE. Especially when its those older titles for the NES/SMS or older. But, I always wonder why the time isn't spent creating something new and interesting. Even if its using some of the similar ideas from the game your trying to Port.... in this case we would say an epic RPG. A nice example of this is what Arkhan is doing with the classic arcade games. Using them as the basis to release something unigue in appearance and even in some small examples unique, in someway, mechanically. Like the nice new touches to "Pac-Man" title Pyramid Plunder.... the map and large, varied playfields etc.....

Arm · 09/15/2010, 06:53 PM

I see what you mean. But creating something from the ground means even more work/time spent as you have to write a story, write music, etc... And I wouldn't be capable of doing that. I'm not even sure if this project will lead to something or if I'm losing my time

But in my case, I was rather interested by doing design and pixel art. That's why I was looking if someone was interested to help me for the code/program.
I think that recreating a new version for the PC Engine is already a pretty big task, almost like a new game.
I'm trying to do this more like a proof of concept rather than anything else.

I also do this because I think it would be fun to revisit a game with new graphics, remixed musics, on a system the game wasn't originally intended for. The original graphics are really dark and rather simple. I think you could consider this as an equivalent to the remake of Mysterious Song.

Lunar on the MegaCD has never been reedited on another platform. More over, it's a classic game with good story and above all in english. There wasn't that many RPGs of that kind in english on the PC Engine. Well, even if there's nothing playable in the end, at least there will remain a couple of pretty screenshots

The difference is like day and night

MCD

/lunartss2.png

PCE

/lunartss2pce.png

Vecanti · 09/15/2010, 10:08 PM

Quote from: lord_cack on 09/15/2010, 06:23 PMDon't get me wrong, I always love the enthusiasm people get when they talk about ports to the PCE. Especially when its those older titles for the NES/SMS or older. But, I always wonder why the time isn't spent creating something new and interesting. Even if its using some of the similar ideas from the game your trying to Port.... in this case we would say an epic RPG. A nice example of this is what Arkhan is doing with the classic arcade games. Using them as the basis to release something unigue in appearance and even in some small examples unique, in someway, mechanically. Like the nice new touches to "Pac-Man" title Pyramid Plunder.... the map and large, varied playfields etc.....

From my perspective it is easier to port a game even if you are starting with no code. Starting with something where you already know how the game engine should work is easier to code. Trying to create a game engine from your imagination and code it at the same time is tuff. Similar with the graphics. Improving graphics is a lot easier then trying create an entire world in your head/paper while in addition you still have to physically try to pixel the graphics anyway.

For a single person that can both create and code they alway have my respect. Usually you need a team of people where some have the ideas and others turn those ideas into code/graphics. Working over the internet it's very tough to coordinate a team even if it's 3 or 4 people.

In this case all the planning for how the game should look, function, behavior, including characters, weapons, inventory is done. All team members would just start working on their own pieces and then just bring it together.

lord_cack · 09/15/2010, 11:16 PM

Quote from: GobanToba on 09/15/2010, 10:08 PM....create an entire world in your head/paper while in addition you still have to physically try to pixel the graphics anyway.

Thats what I do

Hopefully everyone will get to find out sometime. That is, if it works out ....

Quote from: GobanToba on 09/15/2010, 10:08 PM....Working over the internet it's very tough to coordinate a team even if it's 3 or 4 people.

And if it doesn't work out.... the above quote will most likely be the reason. Trust me (and those of us who do this sort of work) it is very difficult. But, the rewards when they pay off, even in small ways like seeing an animation, hearing the tune you have been working on, or playing a brief snippet of your game.... make the risks worth the effort. Its tough and when you throw in the fact that personal life always takes center stage. Its the most important thing. So sometimes finishing that project will have to wait.

There is also the option to rip the games guts out and just use the engine.... Theres no reason your original RPG couldn't use Lunar's game engine.... Not sure the technical problems present in doing such a thing. But Im sure if you can rip the graphics off and lay them back overtop the game, then you could just as well lay your own world overtop the engine. Maybe I over simplify....

ParanoiaDragon · 09/16/2010, 12:58 AM

I was thinking, you could pick n' choose your favorite version of every song, however, I'd guess that some songs would have to be PCM, so, atleast for those, someone would have to rewrite them, not to mention, using the right sounding sound engine. The sound engine used (alteast) in LOX2 was fairly organic sounding at times, deffinitly one of my favorites. It's probably the same as the one used in LOX1, but perhaps tweaked a bit?

SignOfZeta · 09/16/2010, 03:38 AM

When I see projects like this being started my only hope is that eventually a downloadable ISO of a working demo (burnable by N00bS, playable on real hardware) gets made. Anything more than that %99 of the time never comes to completion.

lord_cack · 09/16/2010, 05:44 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 09/16/2010, 03:38 AMWhen I see projects like this being started my only hope is that eventually a downloadable ISO of a working demo (burnable by N00bS, playable on real hardware) gets made. Anything more than that %99 of the time never comes to completion.

Sad but true

Arm · 09/16/2010, 07:39 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 09/16/2010, 03:38 AMWhen I see projects like this being started my only hope is that eventually a downloadable ISO of a working demo (burnable by N00bS, playable on real hardware) gets made. Anything more than that %99 of the time never comes to completion.

I'm afraid you're right

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 09/16/2010, 12:58 AMI was thinking, you could pick n' choose your favorite version of every song, however, I'd guess that some songs would have to be PCM, so, atleast for those, someone would have to rewrite them, not to mention, using the right sounding sound engine. The sound engine used (alteast) in LOX2 was fairly organic sounding at times, deffinitly one of my favorites. It's probably the same as the one used in LOX1, but perhaps tweaked a bit?

Actually, 90 % of the original soundtrack/speech is composed of cdda tracks, which could be reused as is or remixed a bit.
I've already remixed the intro song with soundforge and Premiere with effects and sfx to illustrate the animation in a better way. I think there's still room to put a couple of additional tracks. For ingame sfx, I have the saturn sfx in wav for reference if it had to be recreated. What remains are a couple of small/short melodies like when you win a battle and such. The chip music in LoX 2 is very good.

Unfortunately, I don't really know how to create soundchip music, so I guess someone would have to rewrite them.

Quote from: lord_cack on 09/15/2010, 11:16 PMThere is also the option to rip the games guts out and just use the engine.... Theres no reason your original RPG couldn't use Lunar's game engine.... Not sure the technical problems present in doing such a thing. But Im sure if you can rip the graphics off and lay them back overtop the game, then you could just as well lay your own world overtop the engine. Maybe I over simplify....

You would need to rewrite all the main engine and the battle engine code for the PCE anyway. The PCE has technical limitations the MegaCD doesn't have. Creating a new RPG like Lunar would mean even before starting pixel art to recreate all the world settings/ color style/characters designs. This would require a tremendous amount of design works if you wanted it to be done properly.

I agree, creating something new and original is rewarding. Creating cutscenes art for Pier Solar was interesting
Personally, I prefer to create a short animation movie to tell a story that I've imagined. I choose this medium because I know that I'll be able to recreate what I would have in my mind and manage to handle every step of the process which would be impossible in a game because of the graphic, sound or coding constraints.

These images were in the other thread so I put them here. The wrong syscard screenshot was created from the ground (after being drawn on paper then scanned)

/lunartss1pcedialportrai.png
/lunasyscardpceversion2.png

Arkhan Asylum · 09/16/2010, 10:37 AM

the white on purple is great. I vote that be standard in all RPGs.

OldRover · 09/20/2010, 06:37 PM

I've thought about doing a PCE conversion of Lunar TSS before, as well as a PCE conversion of Vay... but never gave either any effort. What I think would be more interesting though is to take a game on a more advanced console and "downconvert" it to the PCE... anyone ever see that old NES FF7 mockup based on an FF1 battle scene?

lord_cack · 09/20/2010, 07:32 PM

Quote from: OldRover on 09/20/2010, 06:37 PMI've thought about doing a PCE conversion of Lunar TSS before, as well as a PCE conversion of Vay... but never gave either any effort. What I think would be more interesting though is to take a game on a more advanced console and "downconvert" it to the PCE... anyone ever see that old NES FF7 mockup based on an FF1 battle scene?

Now that is really a fantastic idea....

Arm · 09/20/2010, 08:32 PM

Quote from: lord_cack on 09/20/2010, 07:32 PM
Quote from: OldRover on 09/20/2010, 06:37 PMI've thought about doing a PCE conversion of Lunar TSS before, as well as a PCE conversion of Vay... but never gave either any effort. What I think would be more interesting though is to take a game on a more advanced console and "downconvert" it to the PCE... anyone ever see that old NES FF7 mockup based on an FF1 battle scene?
Now that is really a fantastic idea....

Yes, that would be a good idea.

A talented coder has agreed to help me on the programming and technical side.
So we're doing the LUNAR project together now.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/20/2010, 10:38 PM

Quote from: Arm on 09/20/2010, 08:32 PMA talented coder has agreed to help me on the programming and technical side.
So we're doing the LUNAR project together now.

a PCE coder? Which one?

OldRover · 09/21/2010, 02:05 AM

You can count talented PCE coders on your fingers, so subtract two fingers coz it isn't me nor you, Arkhan

Chris Covell, Bt Garner, Charles MacDonald, Tomatheous, Gravis Zero, maybe a couple of others... there aren't many PCE coders to begin with, let alone talented ones, so it should be easy to figure out who it is, hehe.

Mathius · 09/21/2010, 02:34 AM

I'll be cheering you guys on from the stands. Arkhan, if you aren't his secret coder then please at least offer to assist in packaging design. Your Insanity package looks (and plays) great!

It looks like a real PCE Super CD-ROM ROM sitting in my tower. Broken case and all.

Hold me a copy if this ever gets off the ground to completion please.

touko · 09/21/2010, 03:43 AM

Hum , my little finger telling me that this coder is tomaitheous ..

I don't know why !!

Arm · 09/21/2010, 03:58 AM

Touko said it.

touko · 09/21/2010, 04:54 AM

Wahou, with your both talent, we can expect an incredible port ..

Arkhan Asylum · 09/21/2010, 08:52 AM

Ah, I figured. Well, all I can say is good luck and don't invest too much time in the artwork.

Arm · 09/21/2010, 08:54 AM

Quote from: guest on 09/21/2010, 08:52 AMAh, I figured. Well, all I can say is good luck and don't invest too much time in the artwork.

Ok, I'll try. Hopefully it doesn't turn out too good

Arkhan Asylum · 09/21/2010, 09:00 AM

Quote from: Arm on 09/21/2010, 08:54 AMOk, I'll try. Hopefully it doesn't turn out too good

lol you misunderstood that I think.

Arm · 09/21/2010, 09:01 AM

I know, I was kidding

DragonmasterDan · 09/21/2010, 02:07 PM

Why would anyone choose to convert Vay. It's the Deep Blue or Darkwing Duck of Sega CD RPGs.

blueraven · 09/21/2010, 02:18 PM

Vay has been done on the iPhone already. And it still sucks (kinda). I beat it AGAIN.

_Paul · 09/21/2010, 03:00 PM

Now when is someone going to convert all these new Ys games to the PC Engine?

Arkhan Asylum · 09/21/2010, 03:16 PM

Quote from: DragonmasterDan on 09/21/2010, 02:07 PMWhy would anyone choose to convert Vay. It's the Deep Blue or Darkwing Duck of Sega CD RPGs.

Ima have to ask you to leave now.

haha

OldRover · 09/23/2010, 12:28 AM

I love Vay, so fuck y'all!

Comparing it to Deep Blue or Darkwing Duck is sacrilege!

Anyways... backports of the newer Ys games is what I was referring to earlier... taking a more modern game and remaking it for the PCE. The newer Ys games would be perfect for it.

Arm, a little warning about working with Tomatheous... he's a great coder and a great guy in general, but I've seen him bail on promising projects before so you would really have to keep him interested to see this through to completion. He is known for his coding skill, not his dedication, so keep that in mind.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/23/2010, 08:53 AM

Quote from: The Old Rover on 09/23/2010, 12:28 AMArm, a little warning about working with Tomatheous... he's a great coder and a great guy in general, but I've seen him bail on promising projects before so you would really have to keep him interested to see this through to completion. He is known for his coding skill, not his dedication, so keep that in mind.

+1

(not that I didn't already mention that to Arm or anything, :-D)

Also, am I the only one who refers to Vay as Lunar 1.5 ?

Arm · 09/23/2010, 08:58 AM

Quote from: OldRover on 09/23/2010, 12:28 AMArm, a little warning about working with Tomatheous... he's a great coder and a great guy in general, but I've seen him bail on promising projects before so you would really have to keep him interested to see this through to completion. He is known for his coding skill, not his dedication, so keep that in mind.

Thanks for your concern

but I don't think this was necessary.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/23/2010, 09:04 AM

I think I speak for the rest of the PCE scene when I say it is necessary as a warning, only because we don't need another disappointment due to tons (read: 99%) of the audio visual elements being completed, followed by mockups, followed by the coding never happening, or being abandoned one tech-demo in.

If I had to pick one "what if" project though, Lunar would be it for sure, so I hope this project gets started and sees completion.

lord_cack · 09/24/2010, 05:57 AM

Quote from: guest on 09/23/2010, 09:04 AM....we don't need another disappointment due to tons (read: 99%) of the audio visual elements being completed, followed by mockups, followed by the coding never happening, or being abandoned one tech-demo in.

DragonmasterDan · 09/24/2010, 08:14 AM

Quote from: guest on 09/23/2010, 08:53 AMAlso, am I the only one who refers to Vay as Lunar 1.5 ?

Yes, yes you are.
Mainly because there's such an enormous gap between the quality of the games.

Then again, there's a huge gap between the other Lunar titles and Lunar: Dragon Song as well.

Added in edit: Just to clarify that statement reads back to me like "am I the only one who refers to Cheetahmen II as Super Mario Bros 3.5"

Vay is an unbalanced game with boring characters, a poor story, lousy overall game design, uninspired battles and is as bad as any 16-bit RPG released in the US.

Lunar is basically the exact opposite, a well packaged game with a compelling story (though cliched now, unique for its time), fun battles, fantastic characters, great dungeon and overworld design, great art, and great music.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/24/2010, 08:48 AM

I dunno, the general style of the game was fairly similar.

I thought the story was pretty good, though admittedly the Japanese version is better. I blame the voice actors.

Theres something awesome about "BITCH STOLE MY WOMAN, TIME TO GET POWER ARMOR AND SAVE HER" to me.

I also really liked the music in that game.

It certainly isn't as charming as Lunar, but not many games accomplish that in general.

DragonmasterDan · 09/24/2010, 09:32 AM

Quote from: guest on 09/24/2010, 08:48 AMI dunno, the general style of the game was fairly similar.

I thought the story was pretty good, though admittedly the Japanese version is better. I blame the voice actors.

Theres something awesome about "BITCH STOLE MY WOMAN, TIME TO GET POWER ARMOR AND SAVE HER" to me.

I also really liked the music in that game.

It certainly isn't as charming as Lunar, but not many games accomplish that in general.

The general style of all j-RPGs are fairly similar. Especially anime style ones.

Vay was just uninteresting, when Pottle died I was relieved. Way too much time was spent leveling up, the dungeon design was boring.

And I guess that's the other thing. Lunar was not just charming but fantastic overall. You're comparing a shining example of a genre to a below average to poor at best game.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/24/2010, 12:39 PM

Quote from: DragonmasterDan on 09/24/2010, 09:32 AMAnd I guess that's the other thing. Lunar was not just charming but fantastic overall. You're comparing a shining example of a genre to a below average to poor at best game.

Not everyone thinks its below average. *shrug*. I thought Pottle getting shot was sad.

I ignore grinding/leveling as grounds for how good a game is. Dragon Warrior 2 requires a ton of it and the games still awesome.

Not all J-RPGs are fairly similar. There are a few definite trendsetters (Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior), but alot of games derive from it enough to make their own sort of style. Vay borrows some from western RPGs. The character HUD is like straight out of Ultima.

I dunno, I don't think it is as below average as you're saying. I think maybe your Lunar<3 is getting in the way. Not that thats a bad thing.

DragonmasterDan · 09/24/2010, 12:56 PM

Quote from: guest on 09/24/2010, 12:39 PM
Quote from: DragonmasterDan on 09/24/2010, 09:32 AMAnd I guess that's the other thing. Lunar was not just charming but fantastic overall. You're comparing a shining example of a genre to a below average to poor at best game.
Not everyone thinks its below average. *shrug*. I thought Pottle getting shot was sad.

I ignore grinding/leveling as grounds for how good a game is. Dragon Warrior 2 requires a ton of it and the games still awesome.

Not all J-RPGs are fairly similar. There are a few definite trendsetters (Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior), but alot of games derive from it enough to make their own sort of style. Vay borrows some from western RPGs. The character HUD is like straight out of Ultima.

I dunno, I don't think it is as below average as you're saying. I think maybe your Lunar<3 is getting in the way. Not that thats a bad thing.

Dragon Warrior 2 requires a ton of leveling up, but it's a very early JRPG and it at least has a more interesting battle system (and interesting looking enemies) than Vay, and it's better paced.

And Vay is below average for a Western released RPG at that time period. Keep in mind, we didn't get a lot of them, but it's worse than the following 16-bit RPGs that were out at the same time Cosmic Fantasy 2, Lunar, Dragon Slayer: Legend of Heroes, Final Fantasy 2 (IV), Phantasy Star II, even games like Phantasy Star III, Paladins Quest, were better. I can't think of many worse 16-bit classic style RPGs that were out in the US in that same time period.

Added in edit: Maybe Tecmo's Secret of the Stars, but even that was probably better than Vay

Arkhan Asylum · 09/24/2010, 01:37 PM

Eh, its a matter of opinion.

I also tend to like games everyone else hates, like Hydlide, Brain Lord, and Faxanadu, so maybe I'm busted.

blueraven · 09/24/2010, 03:40 PM

You like Faxanadu?

DragonmasterDan · 09/24/2010, 03:54 PM

Quote from: blueraven on 09/24/2010, 03:40 PMYou like Faxanadu?

I also like Faxanadu, but that's based on the fact that it's an 8-bit game from around 1988 and considering the time it was pretty decent. The only similar games on the US NES (or any other domestic console) at the time were Zelda 2 or Rygar, and even those aren't super similar. It's based on the context it was released.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/24/2010, 05:48 PM

I'm a big fan of Faxanadu, Legacy of the Wizard, and the Hydlide series.

All 3 games tend to make western gamers piss-and-moan about life.

There are a few other games like this as well.

Legacy of the Wizard is a great game, and most whiners didn't read the manual

DragonmasterDan · 09/24/2010, 06:40 PM

Quote from: guest on 09/24/2010, 05:48 PMI'm a big fan of Faxanadu, Legacy of the Wizard, and the Hydlide series.

All 3 games tend to make western gamers piss-and-moan about life.

There are a few other games like this as well.

Legacy of the Wizard is a great game, and most whiners didn't read the manual

I like Legacy of the Wizard as well.

Hydlide on the other hand, not so great. But that's if you compare it to games like Ys and Zelda which are newer game relative to when Hydlide was actually developed. The problem with Hydlide was it didn't reach the US until after those games did, which it was instantly compared to in a negative light.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/24/2010, 09:39 PM

Quote from: DragonmasterDan on 09/24/2010, 06:40 PMHydlide on the other hand, not so great. But that's if you compare it to games like Ys and Zelda which are newer game relative to when Hydlide was actually developed. The problem with Hydlide was it didn't reach the US until after those games did, which it was instantly compared to in a negative light.

Hydlide 3 trumps zelda so hard

Mathius · 09/25/2010, 12:40 AM

I never knew there was a Hydlide 3.