I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.

[CrackTiger]

BT - the only problem with that is I don't have a flash card.  Lemme borrow yours!  But you bring up an interesting question... does any music actually mix the ADPCM into it for instruments?  I know Sega CD games do this a lot when there is chip-based music on a CD game.  Also, if the interface unit is attached, why couldn't the ADPCM be played anyway?

Several games do mix adpcm with psg for music. The easiest example to listen to is Dragon Slayer. Just switch the music to PSG in the menu and towns and battles will be a mix of system generated sound. If you have the import version, play it with the Turbo CD system card and you can probably access them in a sound test.

My flashcard is a pain in the ass because it requires a one of those giant old scanner/printer port cables and I cant get the drivers to work on anything beyond Windows ME (even then it stops working after a while and I have to reinstall Windows). You're welcome to borrow it though. I've been planning on getting a Neo flash card once I have the time to make use of it.

Tom made a few nice adpcm HuCard roms that I tried out on real hardware. HuCard games could've included extra adpcm samples that could be optional or just kick in when the hardware is detected. But they also could've included sound enhancement chips, lots of regular samples or just larger sized games in general... But it wasn't worth the extra production costs versus a cheap to produce CD game that would likely sell better.

Wouldn't touting personal OPINION that the SNES kills the PCE sound wise be JUST as fanboyish? 

I never said that the SNES kills the PCE soundwise. I am saying that the SNES sound hardware is superior, and in the right hands can do things that the PCE can't come close to. I'm not an SNES fanboy either. I have a Supergrafx in the box, a PCE CDRom2 in the box, Coregrafx in the box, white PCE, 2 Turbografx-16s, the Turbo CD, Arcade Card Pro, and a shit load of games. I love the PCE as much as anyone here, I just couldn't help but notice everybody poo-pooing the SNES not only in this thread but the MD/SFC/PCE comparison thread.

That's exactly what he was implying that you meant. :-P

If Nectarsis' Super Famicom collection is bigger than your PC Engine, does that mean that SFC sound isn't as good? ;-)

I agree that the SFC/SNES can do things with sound that the PCE & MD can't, but it goes both ways. Just like with graphics. Also, every game is different and even NES games can sound better than 16-bit versions (see Ys III).

All the tech in the world doesn't mean anything, the end result is what matters. Would CD games have sounded better if the music skipped eratically and used autotune just like the cutting edge music from decades in the future?

As I said before, I am also surprised just how much some people seem to outright dislike SNES sound in general. But you are once again the one throwing around "doesn't even compare!" type comments.

[nectarsis]

EXACTLY Tiger...especially when someone says "You show me a HuCard that sounds as good as Super Adventure Island, Axelay, Donkey Kong Country, or Chronotrigger and I'll eat my hat."  Yes you ARE saying that no PCE game can hang with the "superior" SNES.  Tech is far from what makes a system (or MUCH more importantly the the GAMES) the "best"...as proven repeatedly.  

P.S.  If you notice there are some games that get praise in the PCE/MD/SNES thread.  But by your logic Drac X KILLS it's bastard SFC brother in animation frames  (let's loosey call that "tech") it would be "better" on that merit alone ;)

[Joe Redifer]

My flashcard is a pain in the ass because it requires a one of those giant old scanner/printer port cables and I cant get the drivers to work on anything beyond Windows ME (even then it stops working after a while and I have to reinstall Windows). You're welcome to borrow it though. I've been planning on getting a Neo flash card once I have the time to make use of it.

I believe I do have a PC with those ports, but it is running XP so I am probably out o' luck there.  That's why I like the Everdrive for the Genesis since it uses an SD card and doesn't rely on such ancient transfer means.  I have't checked out the Neo Flash yet, but I imagine it is probably pretty expensive.

[Arkhan Asylum]

My flashcard is a pain in the ass because it requires a one of those giant old scanner/printer port cables and I cant get the drivers to work on anything beyond Windows ME (even then it stops working after a while and I have to reinstall Windows). You're welcome to borrow it though. I've been planning on getting a Neo flash card once I have the time to make use of it.

I believe I do have a PC with those ports, but it is running XP so I am probably out o' luck there.  That's why I like the Everdrive for the Genesis since it uses an SD card and doesn't rely on such ancient transfer means.  I have't checked out the Neo Flash yet, but I imagine it is probably pretty expensive.

I use parallel port to send stuff to a C64 drive.  I would hope the PCE flash card that uses it (PCE Pro?) works fine if the C64 one does.

The NeoFlash is like, 149$ for the best one.

The cheapest ones like 60 or 70 maybe

[BlueBMW]

I remember when I built my current computer I had the hardest time finding a motherboard that still sported serial ports and a parallel port.  Harder yet was finding one that had a floppy connector inside lol.

[TurboXray]

<- @ 11:30. Transparency non flicker. The sprites on the top transition line flicker (alternate - ala Sonic water levels) - but you can't see it in that video. But everything below the translation line isn't flicker transparency.

 Joe: Fiend Hunter used the ADPCM channel in chiptunes: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=YZLRDSH6

 Also, the Project MD demo is cool. I saw the effect you were talking about. But the game also does the Jackie Chan effect on the light bulbs (when the character walks behind them). It also does 60hz flicker on XOR patterns to increase the master palette. I bet it pretty decent on a real TV (emulators break the effect because they drop frames from time to time). He even uses it on a translucent area. Alternates the see through XOR pattern.

[esteban]

Pick some SFC/Super Nintendo games that actually have a soundtrack worthy of the humble Dungeon Explorer and we will see.

How about Crystal Beans.

Indeed, I was thinking of Crystal Beans when I made that challenge: the SFC version of the soundtrack is nice, but it simply can't compare to the warm, smooth original PCE PSG.

OK, clearly, this is subjective, but the SFC version, for all of its nice flourishes (believe me, I am entirely grateful to have this "alternate"  SFC soundtrack), suffers from the "stilted staccato" effect on many instruments/samples. It is a pet peeve of mine and I can't help but wish the sound flowed smoothly:

(A) SFC's electric guitars just annoy me (e.g. "Knowledge Temple"). STOP IT!

vs.

(B) SFC's beautiful rendition of the MAIN THEME (with gorgeous church bells chiming and adding immensely to the overall atmosphere).

I can't fault "Main Theme"--it's divine, as are many other SFC tracks.

Some SFC tracks are "spoiled":  SFC's "Floating Tower" has a nice organ solo, but guitars spoil it.

SFC's "Overrun with Darkness" is overrun with a a horrendous, grating, staccato metronome. Then, when the solo kicks in, it is weak and frail compared to the mighty PCE "organ" and synth leads. The PCE tune (sub 7) is brooding, elegant, masterful. All the tracks complement each other and form a harmonious whole--the SFC version sounds muddled, the tracks are at the wrong levels (the mix is off).

BOTTOM LINE:
There are many truly lovely aspects to the SFC soundtrack and I love it, overall. I wish we had more music from Dungeon Explorer on other platforms, because it is a treat to hear different arrangements/variations. Staccato guitar will continue to irk me, but I've learned to look past it.

[Arkhan Asylum]

This is pretty good.

[spenoza]

This is pretty good.

But it sounds like it's being performed by a tiny synth orchestra at the bottom of a deep well, or perhaps from inside a metal dumpster. I think the problem is that some of the samples are actually really good, but some of them are kinda crappy, leaving me feeling like I've listened to something mismatched.

[Arkhan Asylum]

This is pretty good.

But it sounds like it's being performed by a tiny synth orchestra at the bottom of a deep well, or perhaps from inside a metal dumpster. I think the problem is that some of the samples are actually really good, but some of them are kinda crappy, leaving me feeling like I've listened to something mismatched.

yeah but... the maelstrom is a deep dark echoey dungeon....

[CrackTiger]

Another cool spotlight behind a pattern effect-




Shows up in more than one dungeon.

[Ceti Alpha]

Interesting. I forget if those spotlight enemies were in the original, as well. 

[CrackTiger]

Interesting. I forget if those spotlight enemies were in the original, as well. 

If you are talking about the screen shots I just posted, they are from the first Dungeon Explorer game.

[Ceti Alpha]

Interesting. I forget if those spotlight enemies were in the original, as well. 

If you are talking about the screen shots I just posted, they are from the first Dungeon Explorer game.

hahaha. Wow. I guess I could have just taken a better look at the screen shots and read the "Dungeon Explorer" text. My bad. heh

I thought those spotlight things looked familiar... 

[Tatsujin]

Ceti didn't take his supps today again.

[Ceti Alpha]

Ceti didn't take his supps today again.

[blueraven]

 

[Joe Redifer]

Don't let this thread die!  It's very interesting to read.

[nat]

OK.

The TurboGrafx-16 singlehandedly beats down all contenders including Genesis, SNES and Neo Geo. Blockbuster hits like Boxyboy and the TV Sports titles are proof.

[Joe Redifer]

Boxyboy TROUNCES Last Resort.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I JUST PLAYED SYSTEM CARD 2.0. WOW.

IT IS SUPERIOR TO THE ENTIRE LINE OF SEGA CONSOLES.

[Ceti Alpha]

OK.

The TurboGrafx-16 singlehandedly beats down all contenders including Genesis, SNES and Neo Geo. Blockbuster hits like Boxyboy and the TV Sports titles are proof.

Oh man. I was playing NHL 2010 with some buds on the 360 and then I sneaked my Turbo Duo out and threw on some TV Sports Hockey, and their faces lit up just like the really cool dudes from the old TG commercials. TV Sports Hockey ftw!

[Joe Redifer]

I JUST PLAYED SYSTEM CARD 2.0. WOW.

Effing System Card 2.0 fanboys.  I don't know why you guys continues to praise how great it is when the sequel is far better.  It is even built in to some of the later systems because it was so fun.  Remember how Alex Kidd was built into the SMS 2?  Same thing here.

[CrackTiger]

Only the over-hyped System 3.0 is easily crushed by the superior System 3.01 in full-USA-english, without those ugly "PC Engine" graphics ruining the title screen. Plus it's a full year more advanced. Just as the wimpy 2.0 is outclassed by the 2.01 and 2.10. I mean, the only thing that the 2.0 has going for it over the 1.0 is CD+G support. Of course, all of these look like garbage when compared to the sexy Games Express cards.

[SuperDeadite]

1.0 = LEGIT!

[spenoza]

How can you talk about system cards this way? The Arcade Card is clearly the best because it doesn't have any numbers at all. Just like Windows ME was better than Windows 98 and XP was better than 2000, the Arcade Card is better than any of those numbered cards. There was even an Arcade Card Pro, and as everyone knows, putting the word Pro on the end of something makes it more awesome, just like people with Type R stickers on their cars. Those words change EVERYTHING.

[Arkhan Asylum]

my car would be faster if I painted it RED.

and got vanity plates

[grahf]

Back to reality for a moment, I thought the Genesis was ass when I was younger. I did own one for a short time, but traded it in. I had a 1st gen unit, and the picture was grainy and washed out. The audio was OK, but some of the sports games I played had barely intelligible voice samples that sounded cheap.

It just goes to show what a shitty video encoder can do to a first impression. These days I'm a fan of the Genesis/Megadrive, now that I've seen it on better equipment. The SNES and the TG16 on the other hand had a far superior video encoder, so I thought they looked amazing back then. They were just so much brighter and clearer than the Genesis (not taking the colors into consideration, because I couldn't tell on my TV at the time).

[Arkhan Asylum]

When I was younger (3ish), we got a Sega.

Sonic was immediately cooler than Mario.  Even at the gimpy age of 3 I thought mario 1 was "slow and gay". (actual words used).  I still will prefer Mario 2 over any other Mario in existence.  It's slowish, but its so fun.

I was too young to give a rats ass about graphics/hardware/stuff.     I just wanted to see cartoony crap flying around.

I thought GnG for NES looked good.

Now, I am like "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH HIM".

[blueraven]

I thought this was appropriate.

Welcome back, Sinistron

In response to two out of Guyjin's five PCEDAI listed clears being for a system card and a tennokoe card- this is what people are saying!

[Bernie]

Man, I played the shit outta this game when it came out!!  I loved it, and the music in my eyes, was perfect for the game setting.  Too bad the pcengine version is only Japanese..  ..  I would love to be able to play it again on the system.

This is pretty good.

[Tatsujin]

and the music in my eyes, was perfect for the game setting. 

Nice, you can hear with your eyes?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Man, I played the shit outta this game when it came out!!  I loved it, and the music in my eyes, was perfect for the game setting.  Too bad the pcengine version is only Japanese..  ..  I would love to be able to play it again on the system.

This is pretty good.

You could probably manage to beat Heart of the Maelstrom without being able to read japanese.

Theres alot of english in the game still, and once you know what the Japanese menu stuff says, ... use a guide from SNES one for general-stuff... .you could putz your way thru it!

[CrackTiger]

<- @ 11:30. Transparency non flicker. The sprites on the top transition line flicker (alternate - ala Sonic water levels) - but you can't see it in that video. But everything below the translation line isn't flicker transparency.

What is also cool about that particular scene, is that the "transparency" section also has a wavy "TFIII" effect. Something that wouldn't be possible by simply turning on a SNES transparency layer. If something similar was done in a SNES game with a transparency, the transparent layer could make use of a wavy effect itself, if it had patterned art to register the effect. But it wouldn't be the same.

[TurboXray]

<- @ 11:30. Transparency non flicker. The sprites on the top transition line flicker (alternate - ala Sonic water levels) - but you can't see it in that video. But everything below the translation line isn't flicker transparency.

What is also cool about that particular scene, is that the "transparency" section also has a wavy "TFIII" effect. Something that wouldn't be possible by simply turning on a SNES transparency layer. If something similar was done in a SNES game with a transparency, the transparent layer could make use of a wavy effect itself, if it had patterned art to register the effect. But it wouldn't be the same.

SNES has three modes of transparency AFAIK; BG layer and color window. The color window is the simplest, but you can change the color math and base color with an HMDA (basically an Hsync interrupt) to make it fade down the screen. You can still do warp or do other effects to the BG underneath it but that would take additional HDMA channels to do that (each channel can write a byte to a PPU register per scanline. There are 8 HDMA channels). The Sprite have some attribute attached to some of the subpalettes to 'pop' a sprite out of the color math window or such areah so it doesn't get the effect. The BG layer mode, which I don't remember much about - is basically a translucent background layer over top the other BG and sprite layer. I don't think it's restricted to the 3 BG layer modes (as in just the 2bit BG layer can be assigned that function), but I'd have to recheck that. I'm also not sure if you can use color window and translucent BG mode at the same time, as I don't remember any games doing that.

 PCE can kind of simulate the color window mode of the SNES. Though it's through subpalette and precalculated colors, but the effect is automatic to the screen area. CCovell's Axelay demo changes the BG color #0, but he could have duplicated the original repeating city tiles map over a larger tilemap and used the hsync interrupt to show the map in different color gradient (the all the tiles on that scanline as translucent, not just the BG color #0) going down the screen. On both VDCs too. That would have looked very SNESish.

[Joe Redifer]

I remember on the Saturn in games like Shining Wisdom, you could not have a color window on top of a transparency.  Open up a window and the transparent layer underneath it disappears.

[shubibiman]

I just read the Sol Moonarge review at Brothers duomazovs' and I was wondering if there was not some transparency here :