2011 Turbo Homebrew Discussion (Was: CCAG 2011 Footage)

[Arkhan Asylum]

Heres some footage, bitches.

I will add the other links as they upload, or just get them from the channel once youre on youtube.

[roflmao]

Awesome.

[TheClash603]

Catchy tune!  Looks good so far, keep up the good work.

[SuperPlay]

Nice work, dam I now have that tune stuck in my head ;-)

[lord_cack]

Very Nice Work. I thinks that going with the under water theme, and Sunteam_Paul art work, is great! The Chip tune is awesome and just overall Im impressed.

I must say everytime I see the games from Retrocade, Im glad I had the opportunity to be a part of it! That being said, you need anymore work done, let me know 

[shubibiman]

Ooops! Double post, sorry.

[shubibiman]

Nice work being done here! I love the paralaxe. I can see by the theme you chose that you're a big fan of the greatest PCE game ever : Deep Blue!

[Arkhan Asylum]

I love deep blue.

Once I get home today from fathers day stuff I will be putting up an Insanity X video, and another video.   4 CCAG videos.   

yay

[spenoza]

You know, I had a though. What if that first layer of tile-based parallax were a line-scroll, ala SF2 floors, connecting the main BG to the faster-scrolling bottom trim? Since you're doing this underwater, I keep wanting some kind of line scroll effect to either simulate water or depth. It certainly doesn't need it, but I'm greedy.

[Arkhan Asylum]

do you mean scroll two parts at same speed?  I am not sure what you mean exactly, lol.

anyway, more videos in about 10 mins

[spenoza]

You know how the floor warps in some fighting games, most notably SF2? Well, what if there was a faster scrolling border at the bottom of the screen with the sea monkeys, and the larger background scrolls at a slower speed, and then there's a space between them where you use line scrolling to make it look like there's a "floor" of sorts that connects the faster bottom background to the slower main background area. It might be that, when implemented, such a thing would look stupid, but in my head I imagine it looking cool.

[_Paul]

Questions questions questions....!!

How practical would it be to produce those HuCards for an actual release? How much would it add to the cost of the game?
In theory, how much memory can you fit onto one that a real PCE could actually use? Could you have cards rivalling the storage of a CD-Rom, but with the instant access they provide? I assume there would be limitions still in place due to VRAM or something?

[SignOfZeta]

SFII style line scrolling floors only work like that because the screen only scrolls a little bit left and right. It doesn't loop and it only scrolls so far.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Questions questions questions....!!

How practical would it be to produce those HuCards for an actual release? How much would it add to the cost of the game?
In theory, how much memory can you fit onto one that a real PCE could actually use? Could you have cards rivalling the storage of a CD-Rom, but with the instant access they provide? I assume there would be limitions still in place due to VRAM or something?

the sky is the limit with space on a card, but also, there are physical limitations. AFAIK you can just slap a dickload of ROM not RAM (lol oops) on there, but that would involve more planning/design/costs/etc.

The  more you put on there, the more you have to worry about physically, obviously.... but doing these kind of games will be no real problem or concern.

I want to move forward with HuCards as a release. I have ideas for how to produce/sell them and have them be presentable (instead of janky boards!).  

I thought Atlantean would be great for a HuCard game.

If it goes well, the bar can be raised.... We could do larger cards, bigger games....

but I prefer starting small and making sure its even do-able, and popular.

If it is done, the first wave would be small quantities, to see how much interest there really is.

[_Paul]

It would be really interesting to calculate what is cost effective. If we are looking at massive capacity compared to existing HuCards, I imagine you could do stuff on them that could possibly make them a good choice over CD Format (more animation, tons more BG tiles etc) without the system card limitiations. Quite an exciting thought.

[spenoza]

SFII style line scrolling floors only work like that because the screen only scrolls a little bit left and right. It doesn't loop and it only scrolls so far.

I disagree. I've seen a number of games that use such effects to mimic a cloud plane or water surface. Line scrolling shouldn't be too CPU intensive, either. Again, what I'm specifically describing might look dumb, but I'd need to see it, and I don't think your "it only works because..." reasons are necessarily accurate.

[_Paul]

The bottom areas of parallax are front-on buildings and structures. I'm not visualising what you're proposing here.

However, a watery effect on the blue coral background might look cool.

[BlueBMW]

Sign me up for any homebrew HuCard games that are made

[spenoza]

The bottom areas of parallax are front-on buildings and structures. I'm not visualising what you're proposing here.

However, a watery effect on the blue coral background might look cool.

OK, here is a VERY crappy rendition of what I'm trying (apparently badly) to describe.

[turbogrfxfan]

awesome!!!  im excited to get these games

[Arkhan Asylum]

I had planned for wigglewater but have to think of a good way to do it that I like.

I still dont understand what you mean at the bottom there though.  What do you want the row of buildings closest to the blue background to do?

[SignOfZeta]

SFII style line scrolling floors only work like that because the screen only scrolls a little bit left and right. It doesn't loop and it only scrolls so far.

I disagree. I've seen a number of games that use such effects to mimic a cloud plane or water surface. Line scrolling shouldn't be too CPU intensive, either. Again, what I'm specifically describing might look dumb, but I'd need to see it, and I don't think your "it only works because..." reasons are necessarily accurate.

Now that I think about it, Galaxy Fight (Neo Geo) uses infinite line scrolling. It does it with simplistic repeatable patterns though, not actual objects. So it could be done, but not with the sort of foreground that is in this game. I think Macross 2036 does it too, but I can't remember. It would be nice to see it used somewhere in this collection, if not in this specific game. I love line scrolling. In fact, just as my friend and I were waiting to get into this very show we were talking about what a bummer it was that line scrolling floors disappeared from fighters right around the time of Street Fighter Zero, and how that was kind sad.

[ParanoiaDragon]

The bottom areas of parallax are front-on buildings and structures. I'm not visualising what you're proposing here.

However, a watery effect on the blue coral background might look cool.

OK, here is a VERY crappy rendition of what I'm trying (apparently badly) to describe.

What you want, is the same effect used on the floor of levels in Defender 2000 for the Jaguar:

[Arm]

For SF 2, I think he's referring to the separate horizontal layers forming the ground (in the foreground) which scroll as you move right or left in order to simulate the perspective of the scene when the camera follows the character.
I suppose you could recreate this as an animation loop (horizontal layers forming the ground scrolling) to simulate the ground perspective as the cam follows the ship to the right or left.
Or to mimic some kind of ripple effect for the water or clouds

[Arkhan Asylum]

the games already doing that... lol

do you mean scroll something that ISNT the buildings?

[Arm]

What I mean by that is that the grounds in SF2 have a skewed perspective and are comprised of horizontal layers which move to simulate the skewed perspective movement. (the star's perspective moving on the ground in guile's stage)

Most shoot em up use classic layer/overlay scrolling to simulate a multiplane effect.
The principle is the same, but visually it looks different.

[spenoza]

the games already doing that... lol

do you mean scroll something that ISNT the buildings?

Yes! Have something DIFFERENT between the top part of the background and the faster scrolling buildings on the bottom. The Defender 2000 link actually demonstrates what I was thinking pretty well.

Hey, what screen resolution are you using for this game?

[touko]

What I mean by that is that the grounds in SF2 have a skewed perspective and are comprised of horizontal layers which move to simulate the skewed perspective movement. (the star's perspective moving on the ground in guile's stage)

Most shoot em up use classic layer/overlay scrolling to simulate a multiplane effect.
The principle is the same, but visually it looks different.

It's impossible to do with huc scroll function ..
You must use an hsync interrupt to make that ..

And i think that this defender demo was make speedly to show something at CCAG ..
Some sprites problems can be resolved simply by arranging graphics datas on screen IMO.

[OldMan]

the sky is the limit with space on a card, but also, there are physical limitations. AFAIK you can just slap a dickload of ram on there

Please get the terms right. There is NO RAM on the board. It is all ROM.

There are only 20 address lines on the connecctor, so 1Mbyte is the ROM size limit. Unless you want to design a map register chip, and all the logic to map it into an i/o area?

Theoretically, you -could- have infinite ROM. Practically, you can have 1M.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Right now its rocking default res, but I *might* crank it up.  I haven't decided.  Right now its pretty nice looking.  

Did you have an idea of what to put there for this skewed perspective stuff? Cause I sure don't.  I blow at art/concepts involving it for the most part

It's impossible to do with huc scroll function ..
You must use an hsync interrupt to make that ..

Thats why I wont be using much of the HuC stuff probably.  Though you can just go in and modify HuCs functions.  Its not like we havent done that crap before, lol.

And i think that this defender demo was make speedly to show something at CCAG ..
Some sprites problems can be resolved simply by arranging graphics datas on screen IMO.

No they can't.  Its not as simple as you think.

You realize this is an empty demo.  This is just the background/scenery... even if you arrange it optimally for what is on screen now, once you introduce a full amount of enemies that shoot at you, you will have issues again.  There can be a pretty fair amount of things on screen in defender style games.

Its going to involve a bit more planning/rethinking of some things, and probably some trickery and magic.

Please get the terms right. There is NO RAM on the board. It is all ROM.

whoops, thats what I get for playing MMOs and forums at the same time, lol.

I meant ROM  .  Ive pulled enough of those out of carts and stuff to know what they are called, haha.  Man, tons of RAM would make no sense as far as putting a big game on there.  lol

"THERES THE GAME!" *turns off the console* *turns it back on* CRAP WHERED THE GAME GO! o_O

and yeah in theory you can definitely have as much as you want (even says so in the docs!).  but you have to make sure you have the card designed to handle a massive amount of ROM.  You can't just shove a huge rom chip in place of a tiny one and have it automagically fall into place.  

Maybe one day, but for now, keeping it simple, effective, and working is the goal.

If we can't even reproduce the most basic of hucards realistically, there is zero point in planning for balls to the wall SF2 or larger sized cards.  We'd be shooting ourselves in the feet/faces for attempting it!

[spenoza]

Right now its rocking default res, but I *might* crank it up.  I haven't decided.  Right now its pretty nice looking. 

Did you have an idea of what to put there for this skewed perspective stuff? Cause I sure don't.  I blow at art/concepts involving it for the most part

If you're already having trouble with too many sprites on a single line, cranking up the res is NOT going to make that easier to deal with.

As for the line-scrolling section... Well, a Google Images search for ocean floor, like the following, might lend some ideas. It would be worth, I think, seeing how it looks.

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=20&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=ocean%20floor&btnG=Search&biw=1127&bih=728

How are you, so far, for CPU overhead? I know you were hitting some line-based sprite limits, but I figure you've still got juice to spare in other areas.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Well there is some sloppyherpderp math going on right now that causes slow down, but thats because it was a sloppy job as far as putting enemies out and making them do stuff.

Realistically there is a good chunk of juice left (and its already playing music/sfx. ;))

if theres an ocean floor above the buildings wouldnt that make the buildings underground...

or do you mean try to create the perspective where as the floor comes towards screen it lines up so it looks like its the ground under the buildings (the perspective fades into the buildings)

???

[spenoza]

Well there is some sloppyherpderp math going on right now that causes slow down, but thats because it was a sloppy job as far as putting enemies out and making them do stuff.

Realistically there is a good chunk of juice left (and its already playing music/sfx. ;))

if theres an ocean floor above the buildings wouldnt that make the buildings underground...

or do you mean try to create the perspective where as the floor comes towards screen it lines up so it looks like its the ground under the buildings (the perspective fades into the buildings)

???

You got it. The latter bit. As for the sprite problems, I wasn't referring to slowdown but the sprite clipping you get when 2 enemies mob the character on one of the lower areas.

Also, in the original Defender you could fire pretty quickly. Your demo has one shot at a time. If you are keeping to one shot at a time make sure to tone down enemy speed and aggressiveness to account for that, otherwise you'll be slaughtering your players left and right  : )

[Arkhan Asylum]

Don't worry, you'll be able to pound the shots out rapid fire!  I wish there was a good way to do particle effects without really torching things. 

The slowdown is one thing, the clipping is another.  Alot of the clipping will be sorted out once I rethink a few things. 

I dunno, the floor thing could be neat.   I cant even begin to imagine how to paint it though.  I suck at art.

We have to see what paul thinks about that since hes the pixelfiddler.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

You're gonna crank out 'real' HuCards?!? 

[SignOfZeta]

Well, they won't be "real" HuCard™ games but they will run from a cartridge and not a CD. With mass production of PCBs being a lot easier than it used to be, all it takes is a simple EPROM.

I'm rather excited about that part alone. I'd love to see Retrocade come out as a HuCard. With a half dozen or so games as good as Insanity, Pyramid Plunder, and Atlantean, and with a linkable on Express version of Asteroids, I think it would be a hit. It would sell for more money than a CD-R would, and even those guys with HuCard only systems could play it.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I have ideas for making it as HuCard as possible.

as in possibly no giant chip nonsense pokin up.

We will see once I get some boards in and start soldering crap. 

basically, I know some people.  We might have something interesting to use as a card making process.  If it works as neatly as I think, oh man. 

I am trying to keep Atlantean as HuCard as possible, no CD stuff, so it can be on a card too.   Pyramid Plunder is too heavily entrenched as a CD game now to turn back...because we weren't planning on that as a HuCard...

but some of the other games (joust, skate or die, etc.) should be ok.

We will see! its all pending how well the card ideas turn out.

but, Aetherbyte likes to do things that need done.  like chiptunes and hucards.  reconizeeee

[shubibiman]

That would be so great and leave the possibility to Hucard only machines to play the game. I really hope you can make it!

[Arkhan Asylum]

The real question here is, would people want to pay ~50$ for a basic HuCard with Atlantean on it?

We have the unfortunate privilage of not being able to repro carts as easily as Genesis and NES stuff.

Those boards can be sorta large, and then get shoved into the cart.

We on the other hand... have to see how slim we can get it to be like a real HuCard.

Like I said though, I have some ideas.  If it works, a standard wimpy size game will be doable, and I believe I know a good way to make cases as well.

[_Paul]

The real question here is, would people want to pay ~50$ for a basic HuCard with Atlantean on it?

The devoted will at first, but long term I don't think you'd get as many takers for simplistic arcade games (when people can buy actual better HuCards for less).

However, given other styles of games, I do see a future in it. Puzzle games would be particularly suited I think. They don't need the bells and whistles of an arcadey title, or the complexity to make them fun to play. CC's Tongueman's Logic is a great example of a superb but simple puzzler. I'm sure something original could be designed that would suit the format well.

[Keranu]

How about Obomba Man '11 on HuCard?

[_Paul]

I actually have in mind a puzzle game that would be perfect for HuCard, but it might require getting permission to convert it from some ZX Spectrum homebrewers where it originated.

[shubibiman]

We want Puzzle Bobble!

[Nazi NecroPhile]

The real question here is, would people want to pay ~50$ for a basic HuCard with Atlantean on it?

I'd guess not very many, considering how slowly Insanity/Implode/Meteor Blaster DX sold for almost half the price.  New HuCards would be the Hudson bee's knees, but it's hard to justify a $50 price tag (plus a substantial expense to have cases made or selling your soul and skinning a bunch of TV Sports Football donor games) when discs can be had for a mere buck each.  Plus flash carts can be had for $60, so no doubt a few peeps would ignore the negligible cost of the slave labor building the flash cart and label your huey as overpriced.

That said, I'd buy one. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

Well my trickery for jewel cases would keep costs down, but the 50$ cost of the entire package, includes estimates for the case/etc.

Whole packaged deal would be 50 money

and it would probably cost 40$ + time/effort to build per card, so when someone goes OMG PROFITEERING ASSHEOOL, we can all tell them to shut up.

I would be doing surface mount/low profile. And, if my plan for making it cardy, not boardy works, it would be pretty near legit style.   We don't get to have carts like Sega/NES stuff.  Total bummer really.

So really, were boned either way!

CD: Not many people have it.  America is all n00b about OBEY.
HuCard: People will go OMG TOO PRICEY. G T F O.




maybe itll be a short-run mostly for the loyalOBEYers.

[spenoza]

Does designing the game for HuCard rule out a CD release and vice-versa? Honestly, I would say the decision should be based on how much something bare-board looking would save over doing something with polish.

[Arkhan Asylum]

well it would need to be rewritten to handle the CD, lol

Theres lots of calls (cd loading/etc)

that you have to account for.  It could be setup PRIOR to starting it, but shoving it in post-completion, is a PITA.

What I mean by prior to starting it is, set up everything to do both, with a flag set for building.   If CD, call CD shit, otherwise, dont.

[touko]

No they can't.  Its not as simple as you think.

You realize this is an empty demo.  This is just the background/scenery... even if you arrange it optimally for what is on screen now, once you introduce a full amount of enemies that shoot at you, you will have issues again.  There can be a pretty fair amount of things on screen in defender style games.

Its going to involve a bit more planning/rethinking of some things, and probably some trickery and magic.

Eh, send me a screen snapshot, and i 'll tell you how i did   ...
not some trickery and magic della mouerte, only simple programming   (joke inside).

[nat]

If these actual "HuCards" got produced, I personally wouldn't give a damn if they were as flat as regular HuCards or if they had a big giant chip sticking out of them. Just the fact that someone bothered to make some HuCards in 2011 would be good enough for me.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Eh, send me a screen snapshot, and i 'll tell you how i did  ...
not some trickery and magic della mouerte, only simple programming  (joke inside).

Well the thing is, because the game scrolls both directions, sprites are tracked even off screen, as this makes it easier to do the parallax, but even so, this demo shows some problems I will have to deal with.

Condensing the building tops will help...but then comes the fact you could have:

hero + 5 hero shots + 5ish enemies/humanoids and their shots.... that alone is pushing/breaking the line limit... not counting the building tops + coral....

and then comes the radar, and making sure that is accurate ...   thank god for Pyramid Plunder.

Its going to require some hoojoo voodoo

If these actual "HuCards" got produced, I personally wouldn't give a damn if they were as flat as regular HuCards or if they had a big giant chip sticking out of them. Just the fact that someone bothered to make some HuCards in 2011 would be good enough for me.

Well, I agree with this, except for the part where they dont fit in jewel cases that way. 

If you want big ROMs stickin up, fuck, thats no probrem at all!  Get boards duped, solder ROM on, done.

but I will try to get a good surface setup, and find out how resilient my card plan is.

It could be awesome.