Occupy

[VestCunt]

Maybe not be as interesting as Amy Winehouse, Nintega, or camel toe, but here are a couple news items:

1)  cops shoot motionless Iraq vet in the head - http://vimeo.com/31187119
2)  cops ask google to erase online evidence - http://rt.com/news/google-report-police-brutality-767/
3)  House introduces bill to make website owners liable for user content - http://act.demandprogress.org/sign/sopa/?source=fb

[blueraven]

Yes.

[PCEngineHell]

Maybe not be as interesting as Amy Winehouse, Nintega, or camel toe, but here are a couple news items:

1)  cops shoot motionless Iraq vet in the head - http://vimeo.com/31187119
2)  cops ask google to erase online evidence - http://rt.com/news/google-report-police-brutality-767/
3)  House introduces bill to make website owners liable for user content - http://act.demandprogress.org/sign/sopa/?source=fb

1. Doesn't surprise me at all. This is the United states of Double Fucking Standards. We tell other countries not to crack down on their protestors via unpeaceful/excessive force type methods, then we nail our own protestors to the wall for doing much of nothing. To the wall baby 
2. Russia Today/RT can be a good source of info, but they can also be pretty biased, and misleading. They have been known to try to force their own journalist to falsify new reports, and had said journalist/reporters leave them due to that. Regardless of that, I am not surprised in the least bit of the request to remove police brutality footage. Not only does it affect state and national law enforcement public image and throw them under the fucking bus concerning lawsuits, but its major egg on our governments face also when other countries view our own law enforcements mis-handling of these protest.
3. Old news, they have been working on it for awhile now, snipping things, adding things, etc, getting it just right lol. One can only hope it does not get passed.

[TheClash603]

I have been saying since I was a snot nosed punk in high school that people need to stand up and stop being pussies.  Occupy Wall Street is a good start, but it needs to go further.  How about 500 working class individuals that break their back and take home $9/hr storm the house of the owner of the business that does nothing but collect all the money from these people's hard work?  A few house fires will get people talking.  I am not saying that the business owner doesn't deserve something, because their equity does definitely deserve a reward (the owner did take the risk after all).  However, it gets to a point of excess where something needs to happen.

Think of it this way, the average teacher in NY State makes under $50k a year.  In NY State these people need to get a Master's Degree to teach.  The average fortune 500 CEO makes about $8MM a year.  Do you think the average CEO is 160x smarter or better than the average teacher?  Absolutely not.  It's the rich getting richer and an elitist society with no chance of social mobility.

[rag-time4]

Vest, thanks for sharing that video on occupy Oakland and Scott Olsen. It's not far from me as I'm in the SF bay area... I am seriously considering participating.

Prof, regarding parts 1 and 2, it can clearly be said that the U.S. government will not only tell other countries not to crack down on protestors, but the U.S. government will bomb other countries and topple regimes under the pretext of protecting protestors. Along those lines, I have really been impressed by RT's coverage of the situation in Libya ... this recent vid really caught my eye: video link

Clash, I agree with your thought of taking things even further. Hopefully the occupy movement will get stronger and stronger if changes aren't made. That said, the right wing viewpoint is extremely popular in America, even though such a viewpoint is not in the best interest of the majority who believe in it. America as a nation is basically colonised by the rich, and those who believe in a right wing viewpoint yet don't benefit from it are acting as a colonised people is trained to act: against their own interests to the benefit of the coloniser.

[nectarsis]

How about 500 working class individuals that break their back and take home $9/hr storm the house of the owner of the business that does nothing but collect all the money from these people's hard work?  A few house fires will get people talking.

So then these people destroying private property (criminal/riot) for their "deserved share of the pie" would make their "point"....yet is it any more "right" than those bastard fat cats making $ of their breaking backs?  Quiet frankly that is just retarded, bordering on anarchy.  "We don't get what we expect/demand, so we'll steal it by force."

[rag-time4]

How about 500 working class individuals that break their back and take home $9/hr storm the house of the owner of the business that does nothing but collect all the money from these people's hard work?  A few house fires will get people talking.

So then these people destroying private property (criminal/riot) for their "deserved share of the pie" would make their "point"....yet is it any more "right" than those bastard fat cats making $ of their breaking backs?  Quiet frankly that is just retarded, bordering on anarchy.  "We don't get what we expect/demand, so we'll steal it by force."

Sure, it's a tactic we learned by observing how the rich and mega rich operate throughout the world.

[nectarsis]

How about 500 working class individuals that break their back and take home $9/hr storm the house of the owner of the business that does nothing but collect all the money from these people's hard work?  A few house fires will get people talking.

So then these people destroying private property (criminal/riot) for their "deserved share of the pie" would make their "point"....yet is it any more "right" than those bastard fat cats making $ of their breaking backs?  Quiet frankly that is just retarded, bordering on anarchy.  "We don't get what we expect/demand, so we'll steal it by force."

Sure, it's a tactic we learned by observing how the rich and mega rich operate throughout the world.

Makes your point moot when you do the same as them...it's bad when they do it, but ok for you as they did it first?  Pretty big logic fail there.

[OldRover]

Makes your point moot when you do the same as them...it's bad when they do it, but ok for you as they did it first?  Pretty big logic fail there.

Not really... sounds like equality to me. "They" can do it and expect to get away with it, but when it's done to them in return... well, sounds like the playing field's been evened.

[rag-time4]

How about 500 working class individuals that break their back and take home $9/hr storm the house of the owner of the business that does nothing but collect all the money from these people's hard work?  A few house fires will get people talking.

So then these people destroying private property (criminal/riot) for their "deserved share of the pie" would make their "point"....yet is it any more "right" than those bastard fat cats making $ of their breaking backs?  Quiet frankly that is just retarded, bordering on anarchy.  "We don't get what we expect/demand, so we'll steal it by force."

Sure, it's a tactic we learned by observing how the rich and mega rich operate throughout the world.

Makes your point moot when you do the same as them...it's bad when they do it, but ok for you as they did it first?  Pretty big logic fail there.

As rover points out, it sounds like justice.

[nectarsis]

How about 500 working class individuals that break their back and take home $9/hr storm the house of the owner of the business that does nothing but collect all the money from these people's hard work?  A few house fires will get people talking.

So then these people destroying private property (criminal/riot) for their "deserved share of the pie" would make their "point"....yet is it any more "right" than those bastard fat cats making $ of their breaking backs?  Quiet frankly that is just retarded, bordering on anarchy.  "We don't get what we expect/demand, so we'll steal it by force."

Sure, it's a tactic we learned by observing how the rich and mega rich operate throughout the world.

Makes your point moot when you do the same as them...it's bad when they do it, but ok for you as they did it first?  Pretty big logic fail there.

As rover points out, it sounds like justice.

Or hypocrisy ;)  You tend to lose the moral high ground when you do the same things you bemoan the bad guys doing.  Makes you no better than them.

[rag-time4]

How about 500 working class individuals that break their back and take home $9/hr storm the house of the owner of the business that does nothing but collect all the money from these people's hard work?  A few house fires will get people talking.

So then these people destroying private property (criminal/riot) for their "deserved share of the pie" would make their "point"....yet is it any more "right" than those bastard fat cats making $ of their breaking backs?  Quiet frankly that is just retarded, bordering on anarchy.  "We don't get what we expect/demand, so we'll steal it by force."

Sure, it's a tactic we learned by observing how the rich and mega rich operate throughout the world.

Makes your point moot when you do the same as them...it's bad when they do it, but ok for you as they did it first?  Pretty big logic fail there.

As rover points out, it sounds like justice.

Or hypocrisy ;)  You tend to lose the moral high ground when you do the same things you bemoan the bad guys doing.  Makes you no better than them.

It's not about moral high ground. The point is shifting the power structure such that society is less exploitative and more beneficial to as many people as possible.

[VestCunt]

Prof - agreed.  None of this news is terribly surprising.  I just like talking about it so I don't go crazy.

I have been saying since I was a snot nosed punk in high school that people need to stand up and stop being pussies....A few house fires will get people talking.  

If aggression and vandalism were a good idea, police and neo-cons wouldn't plant troublemakers in protests.  A soon as someone breaks some glass, police brutality becomes justified and Rush Limbaugh has a field day.   Being peaceful is slow and it sucks, but I'm afraid the Gandhi route is the only way to go (of course, lots of people withholding taxes might not be a bad idea...).  Otherwise I agree with your points.

Vest, thanks for sharing that video on occupy Oakland and Scott Olsen. It's not far from me as I'm in the SF bay area... I am seriously considering participating.

Yeah, I think I'll crawl out of my shell and go to downtown Minneapolis tomorrow.

That said, the right wing viewpoint is extremely popular in America, even though such a viewpoint is not in the best interest of the majority who believe in it.

Maybe I overly optimistic, but I don't think the extreme right is as popular as we're led to believe.  They're probably only 20-30% of the voters, with a media smokescreen and some rigged voting machines accounting for the rest.  I did door-to-door environmental outreach and political polling all over MN, IN, and NJ for five years and most people are pretty reasonable when you let them talk for a few minutes.

America as a nation is basically colonised by the rich, and those who believe in a right wing viewpoint yet don't benefit from it are acting as a colonised people is trained to act: against their own interests to the benefit of the coloniser.

Yep.  It's like the poor who fought for the South: even though they had no hope of ever being rich or owning slaves they believed in the illusion of economic mobility.

[TheClash603]

How about 500 working class individuals that break their back and take home $9/hr storm the house of the owner of the business that does nothing but collect all the money from these people's hard work?  A few house fires will get people talking.

So then these people destroying private property (criminal/riot) for their "deserved share of the pie" would make their "point"....yet is it any more "right" than those bastard fat cats making $ of their breaking backs?  Quiet frankly that is just retarded, bordering on anarchy.  "We don't get what we expect/demand, so we'll steal it by force."

Sure, it's a tactic we learned by observing how the rich and mega rich operate throughout the world.

Makes your point moot when you do the same as them...it's bad when they do it, but ok for you as they did it first?  Pretty big logic fail there.

As rover points out, it sounds like justice.

Or hypocrisy ;)  You tend to lose the moral high ground when you do the same things you bemoan the bad guys doing.  Makes you no better than them.

I agree with Rag-Time, it's not about the moral high ground.  It is all about making things right, however necessary.

For many years, the ultra rich have exploited everyone else in this country via means that the average person doesn't have.  I will never be in a position to buy a Senator or a Supreme Court Judge, or the media.  With that said, there's very little a common person can do without an uprising, forceful if it must.  If you go to your congressman, they won't list to you because you didn't pay them.  If you try the legal system, the law has been bought by corporations protecting their interest.  If you start a protest, the media makes you look silly because each of those conglomerates are owned by corporations which have a vested interest in making you look bad.

Gandhi's policies worked due to situational factors.  England wasn't the super power it once was and it cost too much money to be spread so thin.  That's not what is going on here, so I don't think a few guys standing around with signs will get anything done.

I have worked 50+ hours a week since I was 14.  I completed college, and strive very hard to be the best I can be.  I am not a societal waste or a leach on the system.  Other than college aid, I have not taken a cent of money from the government.  That's not what I am asking for, I am just asking for people to get a fair share at life.

CEO salaries should be capped.  Like with a Real Estate Investment Trust, companies should be required to spend a certain percentage of earnings annually.  This would put more money back into the pockets of the employees of the country, or into the hands of corporate investors.  Ownership in "public" companies should be limited to a certain percentage, to keep them truly public.  There are things that can be done, we just need to get people rallied up to do them.

[rag-time4]

Prof - agreed.  None of this news is terribly surprising.  I just like talking about it so I don't go crazy.

I have been saying since I was a snot nosed punk in high school that people need to stand up and stop being pussies....A few house fires will get people talking. 

If aggression and vandalism were a good idea, police and neo-cons wouldn't plant troublemakers in protests.  A soon as someone breaks some glass, police brutality becomes justified and Rush Limbaugh has a field day.   Being peaceful is slow and it sucks, but I'm afraid the Gandhi route is the only way to go (of course, lots of people withholding taxes might not be a bad idea...).  Otherwise I agree with your points.

Where i disagree with you is that rush limbaugh and his folowers will mock the protest and have a field day whether or not the protest is peaceful. The only important thing to me is to use the strategy thats most effective.

If people really are as reasonable as you believe they are, perhaps the current non violent tact will be effective. Rush limbaugh and his followers are not interested in being reasonable: they are siding with oppressors and only want the movement to be defeated.

[VestCunt]

Where i disagree with you is that rush limbaugh and his folowers will mock the protest and have a field day whether or not the protest is peaceful.

You're right.  What I was trying to say is that any sign of violence is used to discredit demonstrators.  Tea Partyers have already been scanning crowds for signs with violent rhetoric in an attempt to reverse the accusations leveled at their "movement" after Gifford's shooting.  And then there's the recent comment from Rep Peter King (R-NY): "We have to be careful not to allow this to get any legitimacy," he said, adding "I'm taking this seriously in that I'm old enough to remember what happened in the 1960s when the left-wing took to the streets and somehow the media glorified them and it ended up shaping policy. We can't allow that to happen."

[Nazi NecroPhile]

The occupy movement is basically a bunch of lazy fucksticks that want a free ride.  "Waaah!  I amassed crushing debt while drinking my way to an advanced degree in underwater basket weaving, and even though I can pay a pittance over 25 years and then have the balance forgiven, I don't want to give up my daily trip to Starbucks to make the payments.  Gimme free monies now!"  Fuck 'em.

They have no point other than "too much greed", to which I say "it's called capitalism".  It's inevitable that the divide between rich and poor will widen; those on the bottom end must spend every dime they earn on necessities, but the upper crust can save and invest their ever growing disposable incomes.  The only way to stifle this disparity is to tax the fuck out of 'em, but the occupy clowns can't even agree that too many people don't pay enough taxes.  "I don't know what's wrong or how to fix it - I'm just mad!!"

Think of it this way, the average teacher in NY State makes under $50k a year.  In NY State these people need to get a Master's Degree to teach.  The average fortune 500 CEO makes about $8MM a year.  Do you think the average CEO is 160x smarter or better than the average teacher?  Absolutely not.  It's the rich getting richer and an elitist society with no chance of social mobility.

You're comparing a few hundred jobs at the largest corporations to hundreds of thousands of teachers.  Plus, you're talking about teachers at the bottom end of their respective pay scale.  How much more do they get paid when you factor in longevity incentives or if they move up to a school principal or college professor position?

Not really... sounds like equality to me. "They" can do it and expect to get away with it, but when it's done to them in return... well, sounds like the playing field's been evened.

Did 'they' burn the workers houses to the ground and force them at gunpoint to work for $9 an hour?  I think not.

I am just asking for people to get a fair share at life.

Which 'people'?   Highly paid CEOs of companies that they themselves built from the ground up (i.e. - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, or Larry Ellison), or highly paid CEOs that started low and worked their way to the top (i.e. Bob Iger, Alan Mulally, or Philippe Dauman)?  If people on the bottom end aren't being given a fair shake, then how did these guys do it?  Having money from the word go obviously makes it easier to make more money, but it's certainly not impossible for people with very little to make it big (i.e. - Mark Zuckerberg and Stacey Bendet).

[nectarsis]

"I don't know what's wrong or how to fix it - I'm just mad!!"

I think this is the biggest reason the Occupy, and even the protests  here in Wisconsin earlier this year ultimately do little, or look foolish in the end..  There is almost no one that ever says "Hey how about we try this"..."this will fix the problem."  Just a bunch of yelling, shitting on flags/cops cars, etc. and "ME TO I'M MAD."  Where's the solutions, where's the attempts to make any REAL change besides beating on drums/carrying picket signs/chanting?    Let's not even get into the all the hypocrisy (violence/talk of violence...bad for the other side, ok for them, etc.).


P.S.  Your voices have been heard (and heard, and heard)....if you don't have any solutions STFU and find something constructive to do.

[Joe Redifer]

The whole shitting thing really makes me disrespect the movement.  I know it is just a few of many, but still.  There are a lot of pro-communist signs that some people are holding.  They clearly really hate America.  Yes, there is a problem but shitting on flags in public will not solve it.

[OldRover]

I don't see any problem with communism. Most people who are anti-communism don't even know what it is... and can only recycle the same old Reagan-era bullshit.

[VestCunt]

What's up with the sudden reports of shitting on things?  Did Fox News catch someone popping a squat last night? 

Anyway, there's no surer way to be wrong than making generalizations. 

This movement isn't astroturf and we're not talking about two hundred Tea Partyers with prefab signs from their corporate sponsors.  We're talking about an incredible amount of people in hundreds of cities around the world.  Most of them aren't communist and almost none of them are violent.  They don't hate their homeland.  They don't shit on things.  They're students and teachers and Christians and vets and union workers and the unemployed and parents and the elderly.  The only things they really have in common is that they're getting shot with rubber bullets and they're doing what people have always done throughout history every time stuff sucks.

I have no problem with capitalism.  Financial rewards are a great motivation.  My beef lies with this mythical "free market" BS.  Without democracy, capitalism and civilization are mutually exclusive.

[nectarsis]

The pictures have been circulating for awhile now..hardly new (and no the Fox news attempt to discredit them is false as well.  No on is saying most, but denying things are getting shit on, and there is communist propaganda is ridiculous, as it's been seen by many.  Almost none of them are violent, but seems to be more rapes/sexual assaults, car fires, and theft, etc. at many demonstrations.  Is a majority, no, are those instances hurting the movement, yes.  

[Joe Redifer]

I don't see any problem with communism.

Yeah it worked out so well for the people of Russia and China.  Great on paper, not so great in reality.

[blueraven]

The Oakland PD shot a tear-gas canister at a marine standing at attention and broke his skull. That's fucked up.

That's all I have to say for now. Other than I agree with VestCunt for probably the first time, evar. You're well-informed, V.

[TheClash603]

Which 'people'?   Highly paid CEOs of companies that they themselves built from the ground up (i.e. - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, or Larry Ellison), or highly paid CEOs that started low and worked their way to the top (i.e. Bob Iger, Alan Mulally, or Philippe Dauman)?  If people on the bottom end aren't being given a fair shake, then how did these guys do it?  Having money from the word go obviously makes it easier to make more money, but it's certainly not impossible for people with very little to make it big (i.e. - Mark Zuckerberg and Stacey Bendet).

It is funny that you say I am talking about a few CEOs, and that there are 100,000s of teachers...  then you mention good ol' Mark Zuckerberg.  There are far more people that win the lotto than there are Mark Zuckerbergs.  There is no social mobility in this country, but because there is one in 100 million people that make some serious cash, people think that is going to be them.  Let's be honest, you can't be Mark Zuckerberg, it doesn't happen.

Most rich people are born into it.  Just like most politicians are born into it.  I worked on Wall Street as a trading assistant in 2007 during the start of the credit crisis.  Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE that I worked with that was a multi-millionaire had a father that worked on the street or a mother that went to Brown.  When I started I said "what can I do to get to that position." and the answer was a unanimous "you can't."  They wouldn't hire someone in my social class into the trading jobs, it doesn't happen.  You can tell me if I worked harder I would get there, but I was there, it isn't true.  I met 500 traders that were millionaires and none of them got there from hard work starting out as nothing.

Social mobility doesn't exist.  Those who are ultra-rich are happy you mention Mr. Facebook.  You've fallen for the myth, and I won't.

I work hard and I make a decent middle class living.  I am not asking for more, I am paid a fair wage.  What needs to happen is my bosses bosses boss that makes $4MM a year, that money should be disbursed to back office workers and IT guys and the support staff that makes the machine work.  This guy could make $2MM a year and and a lot of people could get an extra $20k a year.  That's what should happen.

For public companies, CEO salaries should be limited.  For public companies there should be strict limits on the percentage of stock an individual can own.  It should be mandatory that a certain percentage of earnings be disbursed amongst workers and amongst shareholders.  There's your solution.

[nectarsis]

Social mobility doesn't exist.  

Just because something is an everyday event it doesn't exist at all?   See THIS is what I'm talking about.  Some of the nonsense spewed (by all sides) is just absurd.

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/apr/07/slide-show-1-worlds-20-self-made-billionaires.htm

Many of these people were hardly "born into $"...and prob worth FAR more than anyone you met on Wall Street ;)

[rag-time4]

I don't see any problem with communism.

Yeah it worked out so well for the people of Russia and China.  Great on paper, not so great in reality.

Sure, both were backward countries at the beginning of the twentieth century and had to compete with much more developed capitalist economies in the USA, Japan, and Germany. Both Russia and China have emerged as powerful enough to command permanent veto power in the UN security council.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Anyway, there's no surer way to be wrong than making generalizations. 

Yep, kinda like throwing every cop under the bus.  There've been hundreds of mostly civil Occupy events, yet a handful of reports of police being heavy handed must mean that the gubbmint is trying to destroy the movement and we're no better than China/North Korea/Nazis.

Social mobility doesn't exist.  Those who are ultra-rich are happy you mention Mr. Facebook.  You've fallen for the myth, and I won't.

Yep, I'm the one wearing blinders.  What about Stacey Bendet, Dennis Crowley, Naveen Selvadurai, Aaron Patzer, Andrew Mason, David Chang, Chad Hurley, Steve Chen, Jawed Karim, Kevin Rose, or the thousands of less visible people that are worth 'only' a few million?  I'd say that they're all self-made millionaires... but that's just crazy talk. 

I work hard and I make a decent middle class living.  I am not asking for more, I am paid a fair wage.  What needs to happen is my bosses bosses boss that makes $4MM a year, that money should be disbursed to back office workers and IT guys and the support staff that makes the machine work.  This guy could make $2MM a year and and a lot of people could get an extra $20k a year.  That's what should happen.

So you're paid a fair wage but it's not enough?  Sour grapes are delicious.

For public companies, CEO salaries should be limited.  For public companies there should be strict limits on the percentage of stock an individual can own.  It should be mandatory that a certain percentage of earnings be disbursed amongst workers and amongst shareholders.  There's your solution.

Sorry, I'm not interested in government run businesses.  Many CEOs are overpaid, but it's the shareholders' responsibility to set the compensation.

Both Russia and China have emerged as powerful enough to command permanent veto power in the UN security council.

And communism worked so well for 'em that Russia dropped it entirely and China is communist primarily in name, especially when it comes to businesses.

[OldRover]

Only the sensationalist crap will make it into the media anyway, and the general public is usually too stupid to know any better.

[VestCunt]

Just because something is an everyday event it doesn't exist at all?   See THIS is what I'm talking about.  Some of the nonsense spewed (by all sides) is just absurd.

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/apr/07/slide-show-1-worlds-20-self-made-billionaires.htm

Many of these people were hardly "born into $"...and prob worth FAR more than anyone you met on Wall Street ;)

Everyone will agree that talented, smart, hard-working people will occasionally be in the right place at the right time and meet with favorable circumstances (see Outliers for a good look at Bill Gates).  What I and I think TheClash would argue is that these lightning strikes don't constitute social mobility.  IIRC, it's like the documentary Roger and Me, where the General Motors rep points to the guy from Flint, MI who invented lint rollers and became a millionaire, claiming there's no reason the whole city should be in poverty.

Edit:  The Up Series is another good look at how rarely anyone breaks out of their socio-economic background.

[OldRover]

Becoming super rich is almost never about working hard. Very few people have gotten rich by working hard. It's always right-place-at-the-right-time. Millions of people work hard every day, but they're not all rich. You can have the brains, the work ethic, and enough determination to fell an entire country of miscreants... but all that doesn't mean jack shit if the right circumstances don't come your way. Rich people are more often lucky than smart. And those who are born into wealth almost never have any idea of what it's like to be poor, so they don't tend to care. Those rich people who started poor and got lucky at least remember what poor life was like.

[nectarsis]

Just because something is an everyday event it doesn't exist at all?   See THIS is what I'm talking about.  Some of the nonsense spewed (by all sides) is just absurd.

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/apr/07/slide-show-1-worlds-20-self-made-billionaires.htm

Many of these people were hardly "born into $"...and prob worth FAR more than anyone you met on Wall Street ;)

Everyone will agree that talented, smart, hard-working people will occasionally be in the right place at the right time and meet with favorable circumstances (see Outliers for a good look at Bill Gates).  What I and I think TheClash would argue is that these lightning strikes don't constitute social mobility.  IIRC, it's like the documentary Roger and Me, where the General Motors rep points to the guy from Flint, MI who invented lint rollers and became a millionaire, claiming there's no reason the whole city should be in poverty.

Edit:  The Up Series is another good look at how rarely anyone breaks out of their socio-economic background.

As I stated it is uncommon, yet that still directly refutes Clashes it doesn't exist at all.  Absolutes being claimed are part of the problem.  Very few in any of these movements even TRY to find middle ground.  It's an all or nothing.  Say anything you disagree with you disagree with everything (eg. teachers/state workers up here).  Both political sides claims the other is "pitting us against one another/tearing our country apart"....and people lap it up.  Both sides have valid ideas, but to many retards want all their way/no compromise therefore deadlocks, and finger pointing.

[OldRover]

I honestly think that some people are tired of trying to find middle ground with bigwigs who have no idea what middle ground even is. Sometimes, extreme measures are necessary. And it's obvious that this all is having some kind of effect, considering Bank of America's decision to scrap the $5 debit card fee.

[nectarsis]

I honestly think that some people are tired of trying to find middle ground with bigwigs who have no idea what middle ground even is. Sometimes, extreme measures are necessary. And it's obvious that this all is having some kind of effect, considering Bank of America's decision to scrap the $5 debit card fee.

Once again sick of it or not doing the same thing as the "bad guys" makes you no better then them (hypocrisy).   That BoA fee was tenuous at best before the Occupy movement even started.  It may have helped, but was never going to fly anyways.

[OldRover]

Life's full of double standards. I don't approve of some of the measures of the whole Occupy thing, but I do believe that it's at least a step in the right direction. After years of being continually beaten down by corporate greed, I think people have had enough of this shit and are finally fighting back. The amusing irony is that this was largely brought on by the people to begin with; all of the corporate coddling over the past few decades has been a result of voting the wrong people into power, and only the people can do that.

[nectarsis]

Of course life is full of double standards.  But when a movement does the exact same things it complains others are doing, REALLY makes them look foolish/dilutes the force of the message.

"DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO"  has always been extremely stupid.

[VestCunt]

Absolutes being claimed are part of the problem.  Very few in any of these movements even TRY to find middle ground.  It's an all or nothing.  Say anything you disagree with you disagree with everything (eg. teachers/state workers up here).  Both political sides claims the other is "pitting us against one another/tearing our country apart"....and people lap it up.  Both sides have valid ideas, but to many retards want all their way/no compromise therefore deadlocks, and finger pointing.

Nectaris, you make some very good points and I agree with you almost completely.  There's certainly an excess of dogmatic, stubborn, and self-righteous people on both sides.  That said, the root problem is that one side of our political system that used to be fairly sane has been infiltrated by ideas so radical it's become impossible to compromise with them.
*Personal beliefs in creationism are one thing, but how do you compromise with candidates calling it science and want it taught in schools?  According to our republican contenders, I have a chunk of amber on my shelf that doesn't exist.
*Ron Paul wants to abolish the EPA and Department of Education.
*Bush ruined the USPS by mandating that they pay for 75 years of future retirement benefits in the next ten years.
*Taxes are being equated with socialism.
*Mega churches are rewriting the Bible(!) with outright contempt for the poor.
*Oil lobbyists are so radical the want to change the chemical composition of our atmosphere for profit.
*Grover Nyquist of Americans for Tax Reform said: "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."

How can a reasonable person, republican or democrat, compromise in the face of attacks like this?

[OldRover]

"Do As I Say Not As I Do" is already a mainstay of both government and corporate America. Throwing it back in their face, making them whine like the prissy bitches they really are (especially Republicans), just might be what it takes for them to wake the fuck up. "You can dish it out but you can't take it." I'm not sure it works though... after all, how many parents beat their kids to show that hitting is wrong? It doesn't really work.

[Joe Redifer]

Agree with the occupy movement or not, one thing that is cool to do is taking the envelopes that are included in unsolicited credit card offers, sealing them and just sending them back empty.  Or you can stuff your other junk mail into it to make it heavier.  I've done this a few times.

[VestCunt]

Agree with the occupy movement or not, one thing that is cool to do is taking the envelopes that are included in unsolicited credit card offers, sealing them and just sending them back empty.  Or you can stuff your other junk mail into it to make it heavier.  I've done this a few times.

Yeah, that's pretty cool.  BITD, I think Abby Hoffman recommended taking business reply postcards and pasting them to a brick.  And the money supports our mail carriers.  Everybody wins!

[jperryss]

Agree with the occupy movement or not, one thing that is cool to do is taking the envelopes that are included in unsolicited credit card offers, sealing them and just sending them back empty.  Or you can stuff your other junk mail into it to make it heavier.  I've done this a few times.

Yeah, that's pretty cool.  BITD, I think Abby Hoffman recommended taking business reply postcards and pasting them to a brick.  And the money supports our mail carriers.  Everybody wins!

Yep, but I think it doesn't work anymore. It falls under "using the postage paid card as a label" or something.

[rag-time4]

Sorry, I'm not interested in government run businesses.  Many CEOs are overpaid, but it's the shareholders' responsibility to set the compensation.

Both Russia and China have emerged as powerful enough to command permanent veto power in the UN security council.

And communism worked so well for 'em that Russia dropped it entirely and China is communist primarily in name, especially when it comes to businesses.

your statement on slaveholders begs the question: who owns the slaves? What about the process of slaveholders running corporations makes the operation of such businesses democratic when distribution of slaves is uneven as is the distribution of wealth needed to purchase said slaves?

If Russia dropped communism entirely, how did former communist officials move seamlessly into the new regime? If china had never seen mao and the communist party unify china, they might still be stuck on the bottom end of the racist policies and unequal treaties of the capitalists.

[TheClash603]

I work hard and I make a decent middle class living.  I am not asking for more, I am paid a fair wage.  What needs to happen is my bosses bosses boss that makes $4MM a year, that money should be disbursed to back office workers and IT guys and the support staff that makes the machine work.  This guy could make $2MM a year and and a lot of people could get an extra $20k a year.  That's what should happen.

So you're paid a fair wage but it's not enough?  Sour grapes are delicious.

If you read that right, I am not asking for more.  I am asking to give more to others.  I think that a large part of the 99% movement is that people want to help out their fellow man.  The arguments on the other side about wanting "entitlements" are quite false, as most people are looking to give and not take.

Anyway, I may have made broad generalizations, but I am sure that if applied on a case-by-case basis to how socially mobile people in this country are, I'd be right more often than not.

Here's a good one:  "The Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD) has released a report that should deflate this nation's inflated sense of self and fundamentalist devotion to "free-markets." According to their findings, social mobility measured according to earnings, wages and education across generations is relatively low in relation to other developed nations such as Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Spain.

For instance, in terms of earnings levels, nine developed countries, including France, offer greater mobility than the United States. The U.S. only tops Italy and Great Britain. And the U.S. ranks the highest in terms of the influence of parental background on student achievement in secondary education."

Finally, the biggest fault with the 99% movement is a lack of clear goal.  I have read a lot of suggestions, and this one struck me as the best solution I've read so far in that changes are both moderate and could actually be implemented and they are also quantitative and not qualitative ("we want change").

1. Raise the minimum wage for companies with more than $1 billion in annual
revenues. OWS actually calls this "restoration of the living wage" and it
comes from an early post on its web site, but it's a reasonable goal that
could happen if the movement pressures congress enough. My tweak would be
making big business pay for its labor at a decent rate. This could be
combined with a tax for companies that use foreign labor and materials to
build their products.
 
2. One-year moratorium on foreclosures and credit card defaults. This would
be less than the OWS demand that all consumer debt be forgiven. On the
surface, this would be outrageous to the banks and the housing industry,
and it may not even help the economy heal, but given that the banks were
bailed out to the tune of $1.13 trillion in loans and guarantees for more
than a year, it's only fair.
 
3. Raise the capital gains tax rate to 25%. Individually, OWS members have
talked about the inequity that gives certain Wall Street funds a two-thirds
discount on their taxes. At 25%, the rate still wouldn't be near the
standard income tax rate for millionaires, but it would be closer.
 
4. Financial transactions tax to pay for all regulatory efforts. Think of
it as a toll road for users of the financial system.
 
5. Bring back Glass-Steagall. The Depression-era law that divided
casino-style investment banking with the retail system used by moms and
pops worked for nearly seven decades. It wasn't broke, and they fixed it
and us.

The fifth change is the most important of all the suggestions.  I have made this post too long already, but if any of you don't know about Glass-Steagall, you should give it a look.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

your statement on slaveholders begs the question: who owns the slaves? What about the process of slaveholders running corporations makes the operation of such businesses democratic when distribution of slaves is uneven as is the distribution of wealth needed to purchase said slaves?

Slaves?!?  Is that some sort of cute way of mocking stock ownership?  In any case, your questions are pointless. 

Who owns shares?
       Whoever buys 'em.  Duh.

... is it democratic...?
       Why should it be?  Do you think that everyone in the U.S. should have an equal say in how each and every business in the US is operated?  You've gotta be kidding me!

If Russia dropped communism entirely, how did former communist officials move seamlessly into the new regime? If china had never seen mao and the communist party unify china, they might still be stuck on the bottom end of the racist policies and unequal treaties of the capitalists.

Okay, keep your head in the sand.  Communism is so awesomesauce that countries are moving away from capitalism and towards communism in droves.

If you read that right, I am not asking for more.  I am asking to give more to others.

So you get a fair wage but nobody else does.  Makes total sense.

I think that a large part of the 99% movement is that people want to help out their fellow man.  The arguments on the other side about wanting "entitlements" are quite false, as most people are looking to give and not take.

So all those guys begging for student loan forgiveness, mortgage modifications, credit card debt waivers, etc. want it for everyone else's loans/debts and not their own; and they don't want to take money away from the 1%, they want to give them more.  Again, makes total sense.

Anyway, I may have made broad generalizations, but I am sure that if applied on a case-by-case basis to how socially mobile people in this country are, I'd be right more often than not.

There's a big difference between being content with where you are and wanting to move up the ladder but being denied.

Here's a good one:  "The Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD) has released a report that should deflate this nation's inflated sense of self and fundamentalist devotion to "free-markets." According to their findings, social mobility measured according to earnings, wages and education across generations is relatively low in relation to other developed nations such as Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Spain.

For instance, in terms of earnings levels, nine developed countries, including France, offer greater mobility than the United States. The U.S. only tops Italy and Great Britain. And the U.S. ranks the highest in terms of the influence of parental background on student achievement in secondary education."

If you're not in first place, then you're a failure.  I guess I'll thank the gods that Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Spain, and France don't have dirty capitalist free markets.

1. Raise the minimum wage for companies with more than $1 billion in annual revenues.

Small businesses account for about half the GDP and jobs, so why are they given a free ride?  People working at Walmart can get paid a good wage but screw the guy working for a local retailer!

2. One-year moratorium on foreclosures and credit card defaults.

There's already been multiple loan modification programs, it's not the bank's fault if idiots spent money they didn't have, and banks had to pay back their loans.  Fair indeed.

3. Raise the capital gains tax rate to 25%.

Like Buffet, I agree that capital gains taxes should be raised.  I think it should be a graduated rate though, otherwise it'd hurt people's retirement savings.

4. Financial transactions tax to pay for all regulatory efforts. Think of it as a toll road for users of the financial system.

Isn't most regulation done by the Federal Reserve and FDIC?  For the most part they're already self-funded.

5. Bring back Glass-Steagall.

Good idea that's already in the works.  What do you wanna bet that less than 5% of the Occupy maroons even know what this is much less contacted their Sen./Rep. to urge them to move it forward?

[OldRover]

There's already been multiple loan modification programs, it's not the bank's fault if idiots spent money they didn't have, and banks had to pay back their loans.  Fair indeed.

This one actually is partially the banks' fault. Through underhanded tactics, they convinced an entire legion of the American public that they could indeed get ahead and live beyond their means. Lots of people, shattered by what was already a shitty economy, wanted a piece of the American pie that was seemingly being promised to them; something that they had already been denied for years under an already unfair legal system. All they got in the end was an unlubed construction cone up the ass as their troubles doubled or even tripled... the housing market went to shit, unemployment skyrocketed, and banks had to be "bailed out" because of the very problem that they themselves created.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

This one actually is partially the banks' fault.

For mortgages that's true.  I should have worded that better, like this:

2. One-year moratorium on foreclosures

There's already been multiple loan modification programs.

... and credit card defaults.

It's not the bank's fault if idiots spent money they didn't have.

... given that the banks were bailed out to the tune of $1.13 trillion in loans and guarantees for more
than a year, it's only fair.

But banks had to pay back their loans.

And it's only partially the banks' faults for making these crap mortgages, as the buyers were no less greedy in buying a house they knew they couldn't afford and gambling on the value rising enough for them to have adequate equity when the ARM or short term interest only loan came due.

[OldRover]

That's part of the problem... even if they knew they couldn't afford it, they were led to believe that they could. Banker greed let to consumer greed, which is one of the major points of the crash.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

That's part of the problem... even if they knew they couldn't afford it, they were led to believe that they could.

People need to make decisions for themselves and take responsibility if it doesn't work out.  If the car dealer gets me to bite on the $1000 rust proofing and fabric protection, whose fault is that?

Maaaan, I'm an adult!  I throw your salesmanship on the ground!

[VestCunt]

Thirty Of America's Most Profitable Companies Paid 'Less Than Zero' In Income Taxes In Last 3 Years

Compare to the amounts and rhetoric cited in Daily Show's "World of Class Warfare."

[OldRover]

People need to make decisions for themselves and take responsibility if it doesn't work out.  If the car dealer gets me to bite on the $1000 rust proofing and fabric protection, whose fault is that?

Maaaan, I'm an adult!  I throw your salesmanship on the ground!

If people could think for themselves and take responsibility, then we wouldn't have churches.