PCE shooters have lost their magic for me...

[ddd1234]

I recently got into Sega Saturn, and started collecting shmups for it.
I must say, after playing games like Darius Gaiden, Sōkyūgurentai, Dodonpachi, Batsugun and Battle Garegga, I am having hard going back to the PCE shmups.
They seem dated to me now in terms of presentation and game play. Anyone feel the same?

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Anyone feel the same?

Nope, not at all.  Newer shooters may look better in terms of more colors, resolution, etc., but their play mechanics are no better than older shooties (worse in the case of bullet hells).

[ddd1234]

Don't get me wrong, I still love some shooters like Sapphire, Lords of thunder, Nexzr and various other CD shmups.

But Hucard games seem to suffer the most for me.

I guess PCE shmups are more fair in terms of difficulty and gameplay, whereas Saturn shmups throw everything at you but the kitchen sink.

[CrackTiger]

Post 16-bit shooters have lost some of their magic for me as time goes on. I only apreciate 8 & 16-bit shooters all the more. Even the best 32+-bit shooters feel clunky and unweildly compared to 16-bit games. It seems like they are made by people who don't understand the feel of 16-bit shooters that makes them so special and most seem to be designed for arcades. The tweaks made for console play make most shooters that much better. Super Darius 2 is a good example, which is so much more enjoyable for than the arcade and Saturn versions and even has nicer visuals in many places.

Aeroblasters is a good example of a HuCard game. It's one of my favorite shooters of all time and the arcade and arcade faithful Genesis versions just don't feel the same, even though they are technically superior in may ways.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I think Star Soldier for MSX rules.

[SamIAm]

One thing I can appreciate about older PCE shooters is that for most of them, once you memorize a few tricky spots and general play techniques, you can kick back and just enjoy the game. Not only can you probably finish it, but the simple scoring systems make it a lot easier to deal with mistakes. When I play shmups from the mid-90's forward, no matter what the so-called difficulty level is, I'm always on the edge of my seat trying to exploit the scoring system to whatever extreme I can.

I'm pretty good at Radiant Silvergun, but I can screw up an entire run so badly with a single split-second mistake that I'll just reset the game. In Lords of Thunder, I can usually recover a little goof well enough to finish the game and still score pretty well.

[Digi.k]

I'll always put on parodius.. and if you got it Tatsujin I think still looks amazing as well as hucards: raiden, hana taka daka and pc dengin

[TurboXray]

PCE shooters have lost their magic for me... 

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

[RegalSin]

I understand, but the Saturn is one big censored flip-flop system, that breifly took the place of the PCE, along with the Playstation. The Saturn is a 3d system, with two proccessors. The PCE can do every single 2d feet the Saturn gave to us, if they only tried. Look at the N64 and Resident Evil 2.

With a 2d game, each proccessor does a seperate job. With the PCE you have one 8-bit proccessor doing most of the work, with a small amount of memory.

However honestly I was into Saturn games, but I got sick of it. I wanted less 3d and more 2d. Then when I discovered that most of the Saturn games were on the PCE, I said so long Nights, and hello Deneb.

[ddd1234]

I understand, but the Saturn is one big censored flip-flop system, that breifly took the place of the PCE, along with the Playstation. The Saturn is a 3d system, with two proccessors. The PCE can do every single 2d feet the Saturn gave to us, if they only tried.

What? Not possible! Let me see Pc-Engine handle stage 2 of Galactic attack/Layer Section.

[dq333]

Bah  I got my Jap Sega Saturn 10 years ago and I've got all those games plus more (have since appreciated in price)  You MUST get RS and Layer Section(best on SS).  But having said that, I got my PCE about 2 years ago and absolutely LOVE the shooters.  There is just something about them and the media, love them f'ing HUs!  The SS and the PCE are a shooter fans heaven so consider yourself privileged.  Nothing like playing some RS, then Layer Section Then finishing up with......... Violent Soldier

[dq333]

Jumped too fast, I suppose you already have Layer Section, but what a frigging game, the music is just crazy (good).  I strongly believe you will find a need for Hu shooters again.  They may look simple but they will always have a certain magic.  I mean look at Soldier Blade and Parodius, they certainly warrant some attention.

[ddd1234]

Oh ya, I will go back to them eventually, because I love shooters and teh PCE. But these days I am totally hooked on the Saturn, and I do enjoy the crazy "edge of your seat" type game play.

[Tatsujin]

It's so apples vs. oranges.

SS shewties are mostly arcade ports of that time/era, so are most of the PS1 shewties. PCE also had a lot of arcade ports of its time/era, but also tons of exclusive console only shewties.

Just generally saying that they're outdated due to technical limitations is BS.

If you can't appreciate 'em anymore, then it's your very own beef. But i doubt that most of the peeps thinking that way.

[dq333]

I hear ya.  If you had not previously experienced the Saturn and are an avid shooter fan, getting hooked on it right now is completely understandable.  If you love shooters, you owe it to yourself to try a Saturn one day guys. What sux is the prices going up.  Man, i love shooters, my "best" genre of them all.

[Tatsujin]

sure i think the same way. and so does the PS1 have its raison d'être. both have great shewties and both have their very own exclusive titles. and some of the shared titles are better played on the saturn, while others are better on the PS1.

if you love/choose 32-bit (aka 16-bit arcade) home shooting, you can't miss both of 'em.

[Samurai Ghost]

I'm a fan a both. I have tons of shooters on both the Saturn and PCE, and both have their time and place for me. The gameplay style is just different for each generation of shooters. With the Saturn a lot of games started towards the bullet-hell play style while the PCE shooters are more old school style with more enemy dodging and the like.

As much as I love the Saturn, the fact is that there are tons of great shooters that never came out on the Saturn that were on the PCE HuCard format, like PC Denjin, Magical Chase, Hana taka da, and the fantastic Soldier series. To me I love the gameplay, presentation, and music of these games despite the technical superiority of shooters on the Saturn, Dreamcast, PS2, PS3/360, iOS, etc. Those games will always be great no matter what else came out after them!

[FraGMarE]

I recently got into Sega Saturn, and started collecting shmups for it.
I must say, after playing games like Darius Gaiden, Sōkyūgurentai, Dodonpachi, Batsugun and Battle Garegga, I am having hard going back to the PCE shmups.
They seem dated to me now in terms of presentation and game play. Anyone feel the same?

A good game's a good game no matter what era it came from.  I've got favorite shmups from just about every era of gaming ranging from Asteroids Deluxe (if you count that a shmup) on up through Raiden IV.

[Tatsujin]

I personally would put GoT over any shewties that came out on both the saturn or PS1, at any times.

[Digi.k]

I recently got into Sega Saturn, and started collecting shmups for it.
I must say, after playing games like Darius Gaiden, Sōkyūgurentai, Dodonpachi, Batsugun and Battle Garegga, I am having hard going back to the PCE shmups.
They seem dated to me now in terms of presentation and game play. Anyone feel the same?

Battle Garegga is an awesome shmup as I too have a sega saturn but noway will i get rid of my pce..

You should also consider cotton 2 and cotton boomerang and Sengoku blaede... plus another game called game paradise but you have to twink around the options screen to improve the gameplay which is all in japanese..

Consider an xbox 360 for its shmups as well, the ones by cave some are region free and are getting quite expensive now.. and the slew of shmups on the XBL arcade is another realm to discover and be surprised by..

[Tatsujin]

Peeps who get rid of their PCEs are morons. Nobody wants to be a moron.

[HercTNT]

tyrian 2000 is my favorite non pce shooter.  other than that, the pce is my shooter get away. I'm not saying that other systems dont have decent shooters. I'm just saying they dont have the magic that the pce ones have in my opinion. I never get tired of them.

[Bernie]

Peeps who get rid of their PCEs are morons. Nobody wants to be a moron.

Oh I am positive we have a few here that strive to be just that, a moron...

[majors]

If you can't appreciate 'em anymore, then it's your very own beef. But i doubt that most of the peeps thinking that way.

Never turn your back on Turbo...

I'm a fan a both.

Ditto.

Saturn to me WAS shooters and fighters to me. A lot of good arcade ports there and some new ones like Thunderforce 5. I have recently been getting back into PS2 shooters (Raiden 3, Ibara, Mushi, Dodon, etc) and the retro collections (SNK and Taito). But to be truthful, a lot of that has to do with the new 500gb HD I installed and Gamestop dumping PS2 games (10 games for $7?! Why sure, I'll take a look at the trash that has been picked over for a decade now)

[turbokon]

I personally would put GoT over any shewties that came out on both the saturn or PS1, at any times.

Couldn't agree more. GOT is the best shooter ever made. I played shooters on the newer systems, latest one being raiden iv for the 360, which I think is the best with what the latest crops have to offer. That being said, I always find myself playing shooters more on the turbo.

[ddd1234]

Peeps who get rid of their PCEs are morons. Nobody wants to be a moron.

Who got rid of their PCE?

Oh I am positive we have a few here that strive to be just that, a moron...

Sounds like you are taking a indirect (cheap) shot at me.
As a fan, I have been collecting Pc-Engine games over the past several years, so it makes no fucking sense for me to sell my Pc-Engine.
I still like the system.

[Starfighter]

(worse in the case of bullet hells).

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

[Nazi NecroPhile]

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

Heh.  My biggest gripe over bullet hell shmups is that many of 'em shrink the hit box down to a single pixel; 'evading' enemy shots when they clearly hit your ship is le dumb.

[geise]

I used to love Cave games and some bullet hell's like RS, but I have a hard time playing them now.  The "on purpose" slow down, 1 pixel hitbox, and soemtimes impossible unavoidable deaths, makes the genre boring.  The chaining/scoring make it fun for a while, but the earlier Cave games like E.S.P. Ra De and Dangun Feveron were where I had my last major enjoyment with a bullet hell game.  Well I did like Mushihimesama 1.5 on the 360.

PCE shooters I can always, always, always come back to and enjoy.  It's not just because that's what I grew up with, (cause I also grew up with Saturn shooters) it's mainly they are so much fun to play.  It's just different playing a shooter on the PCE than it is on other systems.  I guess is if you really didn't grow up with the system it's kinda hard to explain.

[CrackTiger]

What I'm not fond of in bullet hell games is that they break the feeling of flight and it seems more like a puzzle game with a background just for the sake of it. Instead of feeling like I'm flying through places, to often bullet hell games feel more like Galaga, Space Invaders, Silpheed, etc.  I still enjoy games like that, but one of the things I love about 16-bit shooters is the balanced action and feeling immersed in the world of a game.

[Joe Redifer]

Personally, I tend to prefer designed-for-console shooters over arcade shooters.  There are some arcade shooters which I feel are better on the console than in the arcade, like R-Type or the aforementioned Aero Blasters.  I don't really care for anything made by Cave.  Just the music alone is fatiguing.

[Starfighter]

I'm the opposite on this. The more walls to take damage of, the bigger hitbox, the worse shooter for me. I also like everything about Cave-games except chaining (and as Joe said, the music sucks. But I think most of the video game music sucks) - one of the last thing that makes them interesting to some players. But I just want the core, the "avoid bullets and shoot".

Oh, and the biggest dealbreaker for me in shoot 'em ups - is horizontal. I have to this day not liked a single horizontal shoot 'em up I have ever tried, and I have tried a lot of the popular ones (Border Down, Deathsmiles, R-Type-series, Gradius-series, Einhänder, Darius-series, U.N. Squadron, Thunder Force-series, Progear etc). It's vertical all the way for me.

But I still love the shooters on PCE for some reason, that was even the primary reason for getting a PC Engine in the first place.

[CrackTiger]

I'm the opposite on this. The more walls to take damage of, the bigger hitbox, the worse shooter for me. I also like everything about Cave-games except chaining (and as Joe said, the music sucks. But I think most of the video game music sucks) - one of the last thing that makes them interesting to some players. But I just want the core, the "avoid bullets and shoot".

Oh, and the biggest dealbreaker for me in shoot 'em ups - is horizontal. I have to this day not liked a single horizontal shoot 'em up I have ever tried, and I have tried a lot of the popular ones (Border Down, Deathsmiles, R-Type-series, Gradius-series, Einhänder, Darius-series, U.N. Squadron, Thunder Force-series, Progear etc). It's vertical all the way for me.

But I still love the shooters on PCE for some reason, that was even the primary reason for getting a PC Engine in the first place.

Have you tried Gate of Thunder?

[Tatsujin]

ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

Heh.  My biggest gripe over bullet hell shmups is that many of 'em shrink the hit box down to a single pixel; 'evading' enemy shots when they clearly hit your ship is le dumb.

THIS!!!

I liked 'em until like Dodonpachi era, what came after got just worse and worse. also graphically wise, since they had more and more replaced good old handrawn sprites through pre-render cack.

[Tatsujin]

Peeps who get rid of their PCEs are morons. Nobody wants to be a moron.

Who got rid of their PCE?

I'm very certain about the fact, that somewhere there are peeps out there selling away their only PCE systems.

[Tatsujin]

I'm the opposite on this. The more walls to take damage of, the bigger hitbox, the worse shooter for me. I also like everything about Cave-games except chaining (and as Joe said, the music sucks. But I think most of the video game music sucks) - one of the last thing that makes them interesting to some players. But I just want the core, the "avoid bullets and shoot".

Oh, and the biggest dealbreaker for me in shoot 'em ups - is horizontal. I have to this day not liked a single horizontal shoot 'em up I have ever tried, and I have tried a lot of the popular ones (Border Down, Deathsmiles, R-Type-series, Gradius-series, Einhänder, Darius-series, U.N. Squadron, Thunder Force-series, Progear etc). It's vertical all the way for me.

But I still love the shooters on PCE for some reason, that was even the primary reason for getting a PC Engine in the first place.

What a strange point of view.

[SamIAm]

Actually, the thing that I find most disappointing about Cave games is that they've stylistically sold out to the anime crowd over the last decade or so. Back in the Dodonpachi days, their visuals were cultivating a very tight angular-perspective low-res look. I don't know how much of that was hand-drawn or computer assisted, but it was a unique style and a good example of 2D video game art. Nowadays, I feel like they just throw in whatever background they can pre-render fastest and bank on a bunch of anime lolis to catch people's interest.

Ketsui, however, is the shit. There's not a single aspect of that game that I don't like.

[dq333]

Bah forget cave games, the real big hits on the Sega Saturn are Radiant Silvergun, Layer Section, Battle Garegga, Batsugun (ok some of Toaplan formed Cave) and Soukyugurentai.  Layer Section is unbelievable.  The music is the best, the gameplay is challenging, the weapon system while simple just feels right, and there are no bombs to save your ass.  The graphics are gorgeous and reminds me of old school shooters but jazzed up.  Watch some vids and tell me if this game ain't epic. 


Off to play Einhander; gotta love the techno soundtrack.  To the guy who doesn't like horizontal, come on Gradius V was the Shizuoka (iPAD inserted that one )

[Bernie]

Sounds like you are taking a indirect (cheap) shot at me.
As a fan, I have been collecting Pc-Engine games over the past several years, so it makes no fucking sense for me to sell my Pc-Engine.
I still like the system.

Touchy any?    I wasn't referring to "YOU" in particular..

[Obfuscate]

I am having hard going back to the PCE shmups.
They seem dated to me now in terms of presentation and game play.

Sucks for you......




....but you'll be back

[spenoza]

I love shooters, but I have trouble with ones that are too simple or too complex (especially complex scoring and tiered systems and bullet hell crap). The PCE is a great platform because there are a number of shooters which are straight-forward. They give you options for dealing with enemies but they don't cause you to flip out.

[Tatsujin]

PCE is shooter king, that was decided since day one.

[Starfighter]

Have you tried Gate of Thunder?

I don't... think so. I can't really remember. Should I?

What a strange point of view.

Haha, yes! I think you could say that about most of my opinions. ;)

To the guy who doesn't like horizontal, come on Gradius V was the Shizuoka (iPAD inserted that one )

I actually played Gradius V for quite some time! But I never fell in love with it.

[Samurai Ghost]

Have you tried Gate of Thunder?

I don't... think so. I can't really remember. Should I?

YES, yes, Yes, YESSSS!!!, ... yes. Play it.

[Starfighter]

YES, yes, Yes, YESSSS!!!, ... yes. Play it.

Damn, the software bible tells me it's on disc! I don't have a duo. But... it seems to have been released on PSN as well, maybe I'll check it out there!

[bartre]

YES, yes, Yes, YESSSS!!!, ... yes. Play it.

Damn, the software bible tells me it's on disc! I don't have a duo. But... it seems to have been released on PSN as well, maybe I'll check it out there!

honestly, i'm kinda with you on the whole horizontal thing, i've liked significantly fewer horizontal shmups when compared to vertical.
that said, GATE OF THUNDER!
play it, yo.

[Tatsujin]

I can't believe there are still peeps out there haven't ever play any GoT

[RegalSin]

PCE is shooter king, that was decided since day one.

The PCE is numbaaaa wwwon in everything. Just not the extreme usage of 3d graphics. With that said, all is right in the world. It is soooo
perfect. The only thing that prevented it from being perfect is man
laws, Who really cares, about mans laws. this is what I love about future world. Everybody has a five second attention span.

However in terms of Shooters. The NES also has it's share of creative content
as well.

[soop]

Well, I really like Puzznic.  So there.

[majors]

I liked 'em until like Dodonpachi era, what came after got just worse and worse. also graphically wise, since they had more and more replaced good old handrawn sprites through pre-render cack.

Otomedius and Death Smiles 2 graphics do not hold me, but Mushi and Mars Matrix do. All four have a pre-rendered look IMO so I do not like to blanket-hate on all "pre-render" style games. I'll take every shooter one at a time, give it the love or hate per game, not per company.

Tats -> What about polygon shooters like Gradius V, Strania or Ikaruga? Still like "hand-drawn" games over those?

As a side note, when we bring cabs to conventions. One of the Wedoca crew is a shump-cave-whore, so having $800-$1500 PCB's up and running is neat. A lot of people have never been able to play some of these titles and to play them on real hardware in real Japanese arcade cabinets does have a appeal if not a novelty.

(I can't fathom folks not playing Spriggan!)