Did anyone else neglect Hucards back in the 90's?

[NightWolve]

Nothing I can add since I don't know anything about channel multiplexing/demultiplexing.

No, about Roland Sound Space. You made this post in 2008 here:

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?17404-PC-Engine-games-with-Dolby-Surround&p=298366&viewfull=1#post298366

Dracula X, Snatcher, and Gradius II, all on CD by Konami, use Roland Sound Space for some kind of [simulated] surround effect.

Zeta said that Roland Sound Space was just pretty much like reverb and what not. I thought you might know more details about RSS since you referred to it as a [simulated] surround effect, etc. That's all you knew about it, then? No biggie, thought I'd ask.

I'm going to have to borrow a cart from a friend or something and try this on equipment I understand (my own shit, in other words).

What would be nice is a receiver/decoder that actually somehow indicates what kind of audio signal that it's decoding, be it a) Dolby Surround (the first form was 3 channels apparently), b) Dolby Pro Logic, c) Dolby Digital 5.1, c) DTS, whatever. That's what's needed here... I dunno what you got, but I'm sure it can't be as old as mine! ;) If you read some of my blurb, I had a more modern RCA unit with 5.1 support (optical input), but the damn thing burned out on me, so I had to go back to this ole Sony model that I bought in ~1996; it still works and I never got rid of it, so until I find a decent replacement and extra cash to burn, I'm stuck with it... Kinda cool though, it's still got a few tricks up its sleeve as you can see from the videos!

I can speculate why any type of surround sound support with the SNES (and all before it) would be news to many people... AV receiver/decoder units were way too expensive back then (what I use in the videos debuted at $549 though I got it for ~$400) so very few people likely owned one when the 16-bit era was in full swing! It was ~1996-97 by the time I bought my first one and now the 32-bit PS1 era was in full swing! The only reason I brought my SNES out of retirement was because I scored a copy of FF IV for $5 bucks from this resale shop that I used to hang out at (I beat the game years ago via rentals I believe)... I used to do VCR repairs for them: they'd buy broken VCRs for cheap, give 'em to me, and if I could fix them, I'd make a little chump change and they'd resell 'em. Once in a blue moon, they'd throw a good deal my way as a perk, etc. This time it was FF IV for cheap, and if not for that, I never would've gone back to the SNES and hooked it up to this new audio equipment that I had purchased with movie enjoyment in mind!

Pro Logic is the term that describes the circuit in a home receiver that decodes Dolby Surround.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic#Pro_Logic_vs._Dolby_Surround

Well, an attempt is made to deal with the confusion that Dolby caused with their terminology choices there. That's why I corrected myself. This part is of note, "Dolby Surround and Dolby Pro Logic decoders are similar in principle, as both use matrix technology to extract extra channels from stereo-encoded audio. However, Dolby Surround only decodes the rear surround channel, while Dolby Pro Logic also decodes the center channel." - They are using "Dolby Pro Logic" as a proper label for a 1987 improvement over "Dolby Surround [3.0]" allowing for 4 channels for the home setting instead of 3 (as was the case with "Dolby Surround"). I know what you're saying about the circuit though and you're right, there is a general usage of Dolby Surround if audio has been encoded with some form of it, etc.. Anyway, I'm just gonna go with the chart that they got on that link. I think I understand what happened, but it's still confusing somewhat.

[CrackTiger]

Although I never knew about FFIV's surround sound, I remember how mags bitd made a big deal out of Super Turrican's surround sound.

Super Darius also has surround sound. I assume that it's only for the music, since it wouldn't be much use for any of the sound effects. Dungeon Explorer would be a great game for surround sound. The original positions the sound effects across the left and right speakers depending on the horizontal position of what is making the sound. I don't remember if it is used for more than player's shots. Anyway, surround sound could be used to give the sound effects vertical positioning as well.

[Tatsujin]

all around surround sound.

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, come to think of it, real Dolby Surround systems were pretty rare in 1992 or whenever this game came out. However, people in Japan will buy basically anything...

My main receiver is a Harmon Kardon AVR235. This isn't exactly brand new (2004) but it has several HK-exclusive settings that do as much or more with matrixed surround than any receiver since. The Logic 7 mode in particular does a freaking AMAZING job of making four channel DS sound nearly as good as DD. When listening to something like Mario Galaxy (made for Pro Logic 2) you'd swear it was DD. I was watching Gundam F91 the other day (the Final Version laserdisc) and what Logic 7 does with a four channel track is nothing short of amazing. Believe me, I'm no sucker for bullshit DSP modes, but this thing is for real.

However, no matter how fancy the receiver is, it can't tell if something is actually DS or not. Maybe some are clever enough to make a guess, but they won't always be right. When they invented this system you'd think they could have put some sort of flag in a sub signal to identify the signal type, but they didn't. The circuitry they used for DPL decoding 25 years ago was incredibly simple compared to the stuff we have now, like Logic 7. Also, the signal is pretty crammed already, so maybe they left it out for bandwidth considerations. Regardless, depending on what sort of signal is there, its quite possible, like I said, for a DPL decoder to separate things into channels based on shear coincidence. I bet this happens all the time with certain types of music that use some of the more interesting synthesizer sounds.

Watching the video you made with that display that shows exactly whats coming out of each speaker...it really really looks like this was intentional. It also looks like it works really well. And yeah, this would be Dolby Surround since that was the only form of Surround Sound that existed back then other than Quadraphonic (which was dead by then, but technically very similar).

As for RSS: This isn't really a video game thing. All the RSS parts are in the redbook music. Therefore, its not, strictly speaking, a video game related expertise question. The person to ask RSS would be anyone with a large collection of Roland keyboards and modules since they've been building it into stuff for ages. I think they still do. AFAIK, its basically the effect you get from those Hall, Cathedral, Jazz, whatever DSP settings on AV receivers. What it really means: the music in Drax was made by Roland keyboards, which is something we probably already knew.

[VestCunt]

Great posts, guys.

AFAIK, [RSS] is basically the effect you get from those Hall, Cathedral, Jazz, whatever DSP settings on AV receivers.

RSS attempts to create a 3D field with just stereo speakers by using subtle techniques like binaural recording, combfiltering, and processing slight changes in the L/R frequency response.  It's not terribly effective because all of this is generated by Roland gear or through extra processors in the audio mastering stage and there's no way to predict everyone's receiver model, speaker frequency response and configuration, room acoustics, listening position, head size, and hearing loss.  

DSPs on receivers will create a 3D field if surround speakers are present, but their main use to the simulate the characteristics of different environments.  Typically, this means hyping the mix with lots of artificial EQ, reverb, delay, and early reflections.  Cinemas are very dead acoustically, so "movie" is extra bassy with no reflections.  "Live" uses long reflections to simulate a large venue.  When used with surround sound, certain frequencies are prioritized in the rear speakers - my "jazz" setting seems to use the rear speakers almost exclusively for high frequencies with sharp transients (i.e. cymbals and snare); "live" uses the rear speakers for mostly just reverb and some mid-range sounds with a slow attack (applause).

Zeta - you probably already know most of this, but I wanted to clarify that RSS/DSP comparison a bit.

[CrackTiger]

Manuals for games using RSS tell you how to position your speakers and where to sit.

[kazekirifx]

Ys IV had the RSS logo too, didn't it?
I remember on that 'boring' slow track for the abandoned shrine (or whatever it is - you know which track I mean  Please don't take issue with me calling it 'boring') there is one part in there where one sound gradually shifts from one channel to the other, and when wearing headphones it really feels like the sound is a blob going in one year, gradually making its way through your brain, and then coming out the other ear. Maybe this didn't have anything to do with RSS, but it was a cool stereo effect anyway.

[VestCunt]

Manuals for games using RSS tell you how to position your speakers and where to sit.

Oh cool.  I guess I've never seen an English manual for an RSS game.  Are there instructions online anywhere?  Are the speakers and listener just an equidistant triangle?

That's what it looks like in this demonstration video:

Youtube compresses audio terribly, but I do hear some 3D effects at 2:10 and 4:14
Does anyone know what the video game is at 4:49?  A vertical shooter on CD in 1991 in the UK?!?

[NightWolve]

Ys IV had the RSS logo too, didn't it?

Yeah, I just looked at my Ys IV case, it does have a RSS logo in the front. Never quite noticed it compared to Dracula X cause of the color choices between font v. background of the manuals... Well, vestcunt answered my question about it in FULL. That about covers that! And that RSS video you found was awesome! I figured it had to be a little bit more fancy than cheap stereo and/or reverb effects if publishers are going to the trouble of displaying a logo and likely paying a license fee for it.

I remember on that 'boring' slow track for the abandoned shrine (or whatever it is - you know which track I mean   Please don't take issue with me calling it 'boring')

*shakes fist*

Why...you NO GOOD ROTTEN $#$!?!#!?!#@!... HOW DARE YOU! Hehe, don't worry man. I think I know what track you're referring to, and yeah, there are some boring ones on there I recall. ;)

Concerning FF IV: I do wanna add that until someone can prove Dolby surround support with an A/V receiver/decoder unit that can detect what type of Dolby signal it's processing, if present, don't draw a firm conclusion from the FF IV sound tests in my videos... To borrow material from esteban, all they proved was that a, "truly immersive FF IV surround sound experience" is possible with basic Home Theater Systems given a stereo signal.

Zeta, here's why I'm unsure: Since the unit doesn't have an indicator of any kind, I wanted to be thorough and try other stereo signals to find a case where I would NOT get ANY surround effects while using the 1st Dolby Surround processing mode. So I tried music CDs and sure enough, EVERYTHING was enhanced with surround effects! I looked for the oldest CD I could find, still, awesome surround effects were exhibited! Then I said, OK, what happens with a mono signal? Let's see what it does then! So I got my VCR and an old VHS tape where I had recorded some NES games I had beat as a kid. So I hook it all up, the first game on the tape is Shadowgate, I rewind and let it play, and NOW the Sony unit finally refuses to produce surround effects: it's only powering the front 3 speakers, L/R equally, with an emphasis on the center speaker, but NO rear channel support! However, when I disconnect one RCA connector from the unit, let's say the right one and I leave the left one connected, the unit responds by playing the left channel AND the rear channel (hence you get output from both rear speakers), almost equally mind you, though... So it's like, a basic stereo effect whereby the Left channel is playing, but the Right channel is lowered, will cause a boost in the rear channel of the surround processing unit, etc. if that makes sense. So there's a basic decision the circuit is making right there to create a surround effect without any Dolby specific encoding technique... At least, so it would appear...

Anyway, I hijacked this thread enough about this, but I thought it was all very interesting. And I don't think I ever got to mention to anybody about the FF IV [simulated or not] surround sound effects I got to enjoy the last time I played it. Now there are videos! Hehe. It's no wonder that the FF IV soundtrack ranks as one of my favorites right alongside Ys Book I&II and III, etc. Long story short, Home Theater Systems are DEFINITELY worth it and they're a lot more affordable these days with packages that usually include all of the surround speakers with subwoofer!!!!

[SignOfZeta]

I'm going to track down some SNES carts and try this out. I'll start a new thread for it when I do.

[ccovell]

Does anyone know what the video game is at 4:49?  A vertical shooter on CD in 1991 in the UK?!?

Yes, Xenon 2 CDTV.

The "sound effects" aren't that of the released game, obviously.  They were dubbed in by the TV studio guys there to "illustrate" what 3D sound would sound like for games.

[esteban]

Does anyone know what the video game is at 4:49?  A vertical shooter on CD in 1991 in the UK?!?

Yes, Xenon 2 CDTV.

The "sound effects" aren't that of the released game, obviously.  They were dubbed in by the TV studio guys there to "illustrate" what 3D sound would sound like for games.

Xenon 2. I want to play this game. 

[Tatsujin]

Pump up teh Volume - bomb teh bass - teh megablast

[Tatsujin]

Damn, I just found out, over all the years, that the main melody of that track is taken from the john carpenters "Assault on Precinct 13" BGM. damndamndamn.

[esteban]

Damn, I just found out, over all the years, that the main melody of that track is taken from the john carpenters "Assault on Precinct 13" BGM. damndamndamn.

Wait, which tune (from which game) is taken from the movie?