the lost games!

[Keranu]

Hey Keranu,
I don't know anything about technical system specs, but did those comparison shots with Secret of Mana and Seiken Densentsu 3 abide by the maximum number of colors that the PCE can display?  I know that the number of colors allowed on screen is fewer than the colors available in the palette.

Yes, that screenshot is perfectly good for PCE standards as far as color use. I have this program that Fragmare from MindRec sent me that converts .bmps to PCE palette format (512 colors). The problem is though that it doesn't divide half the colors for the tiles and half for the sprites, so if you used a image tha thad more than 512 colors, then it wouldn't exactly look like that on the PCE palette. If I recall though, that Secret of Mana screenshot had about 120 colors (which is ok to use since that doesn't exceed 256) and the converted image uses over 70.

BTW, can you do a shot of what a game would look like on the SMS?

Nah, sorry. I don't have a program or know of anyway to filter that in a program. If anyone has a method of doing that, let me know because I would be interested .

[CrackTiger]

Maybe Secret of Mana could be ported to PCE, but it would be one hell of a bad port - the map would have to be removed, tons of sprites would have to be removed (and they would have to be MUCH smaller), no transparency, etc etc etc.

Why would any sprites have to be removed or be smaller? Although I think that a warping map could be pulled off(like Chris Covell's Axelay demo), the world maps in FFIV - FFVI look better before they warp.

The PC Engine has lots of games with nice transparency effects. It doesn't matter how the effect is technically done, only the end result. Like when people say that the PC Engine can't due "true" or "real" parallax. Unless you're told that the parallax you're looking at isn't technically being rendered in the technique that counts as "true", you can't tell when the end result is exactly the same.

Just converting the colors has nothing to do with it - the hardware wouldn't be able to handle it. Have you played through SD3? If not - do it. There's TONS of stuff in that game that the PC Engine couldn't pull off regardless of what techniques were used.

There are a lot of SFC games, like SD3, which most people would've said that the SFC couldn't handle until they were made.

Oh yes. Static images. That proves EVERYTHING! Seiken densetsu can DEFINITELY be ported to PCE, and they should have - because the PCE game would've been better (because, you know, it would be on the PCE)!!

But this is your argument, that the PCE can't handle a SFC port because, you know, it's the SFC.

BTW, can you do a shot of what a game would look like on the SMS?

Here you go-

[Keranu]

Haha, great screenshot .

[SignOfZeta]

The PC Engine has lots of games with nice transparency effects. It doesn't matter how the effect is technically done,

No, it does matter because if its done the only way I've ever seen it done on PCE it looks like flickering crap. SFC transparencies are %100 flicker free if done via hardware acceleration and they are like butter. You could do the Super Metroid super bomb effect on the PCE...it would just look like crapola.

Maybe I'm forgetting some PCE techinque for transparencies that looks better than what I'm used to, but I'm pretty sure its always the same sort of thing they used on Neo Geo and Mega Drive. Its passable, but you wouldn't want to use it large scale because the flickering would be near vomit inducing.

There are a lot of SFC games, like SD3, which most people would've said that the SFC couldn't handle until they were made.

That may be true, but SD3 isn't one of those games, IMO. SD3 is the untimate realazation of the SFC's abilities. There is nothing there that technicall was thought to be impossible, there is just a whole ton of the possible stuff. Maybe more than any cart probably.

[CrackTiger]

No, it does matter because if its done the only way I've ever seen it done on PCE it looks like flickering crap. SFC transparencies are %100 flicker free if done via hardware acceleration and they are like butter.

Maybe I'm forgetting some PCE techinque for transparencies that looks better than what I'm used to, but I'm pretty sure its always the same sort of thing they used on Neo Geo and Mega Drive. Its passable, but you wouldn't want to use it large scale because the flickering would be near vomit inducing.

Vasteel's transparencies, which I assume must be flickered, looked pretty much perfect from my memory. I believe that they even had a couple layers of transparent backgrounds scrolling independantly over a third solid outer space themed bg.

Then there's one or two, where a transparent image of one background peels off of the other and then warps all over the place. It's kind of like doing a warping map like Secret Of Mana, but transparent at the same time.

An easy one to see is one of the last bosses in The Legend Of Xandu II(just use the Premium or Debug tricks, he's in Battle Mode door #7). The animated waterfalls use a flickering effect that actually isn't that well done(the actual bosses also uses even poorer flickered effects). But the whole thing still looks amazing. If a version or port of SD3 wound up looking like that, it'd be fine by me. All the boss fights in LOXII are a good indication of how a port of SD3 could look as good on PCE.


http://superpcenginegrafx.com/img/sotb2.gif

http://superpcenginegrafx.com/xan.mpg


But a game doesn't become garbage just because it gets a port optimized for the new console, instead of a super straight port. Because the original was taylor made for the original hardware, the developer would've had to sacrifice a lot of ideas and do certain aesthetics in a way different from their original vision.

Like say, if in SD3 they original wanted to do most of the effects a different way, but had to change them to make them work on SFC. Does this make the SFC version garbage, since it's not faithful to the original design?

On new hardware, they can put some lost things back and use new different aesthetics. I'd rather have a unique port than a carbon copy. Since there's no such thing as a perfect game(except for our personal biases), then change can be a good thing.

Black_Tiger wrote:
There are a lot of SFC games, like SD3, which most people would've said that the SFC couldn't handle until they were made.


That may be true, but SD3 isn't one of those games, IMO. SD3 is the untimate realazation of the SFC's abilities. There is nothing there that technicall was thought to be impossible, there is just a whole ton of the possible stuff. Maybe more than any cart probably.

This is what I mean, the average expert would've said that SD3 or Tales Of Phantasia would have had to be on CD-ROM before they became a reality.

You could do the Super Metroid super bomb effect on the PCE...it would just look like crapola.

This is also the kind of thing I'm talking about. Instead of having to use a scaling circle due to cart limitations, they could use an amazing animation.

[Emerald Rocker]

CrackTiger makes some great points.  The SNES game wasn't necessarily the original vision in the first place... it could have been a compromise all along.  It's kind of like the original Lunar on Sega CD.  It wasn't their original vision.  A port to the SNES/whatever might have ended up more faithful than the original game.



That being said, when Lunar was put on the PSX (supposedly in "truer" form), it was worse, which proves that sticking to the original vision or the original version doesn't always make for a good game.

It never looks like a transparency from a SNES, or a Saturn, or whatever.

Saturn and transparencies don't mix.

You can talk theories, and programming skill, and single screen tech demos made 10 years after the death of the system, but the shit never actually happened on the PCE during its life which leads me to believe that it was either impossible, or such a bitch that it wasn't worth it because there is no shortage of good programing in the PCE library.

You make a good point here, and it's one that I agree with.  SD3 was never ported to the PCE, and no one ever really asked for SD3 to come out on the PCE anyway, because there were already tons of other great programs.  All the theories about "how" to do it (or not do it) don't matter, because all the talk in the world can't change the past.

there is such a thing as reality and reality says that you can't do Seiken 3 on a PC Engine and achieve anything that does the source material justice.

...but then you turn around and start talking about it again.



There are plenty of games that do things the PCE wasn't supposed to be able to do (Sapphire, Metamor Jupiter, etc).  In one breath you say it's pointless to discuss this, but in the next breath you bring the topic back and try to "win".



You seriously think the PCE couldn't do the original source justice?  That's a huge claim to make -- since "do justice" doesn't even imply "perfect".  However, the point remains... it WASN'T done and it's not going to BE done so, as you said, it's silly talk.  It's easy to beat your chest when no one is going to ever prove you wrong.



Personally, I believe it could be ported in near-perfect (or superior) form.  It's not like we're talking about porting something intense like Ranger-X.  We're just talking about the Seiken Densetsu games!

You can't to Gran Turismo on the Watara Supervision, you can't do Sakura Wars 3 on the Vectrex, you can't do Viewtiful Joe on the MSX.

Silly comparisons.  The generation gap between the systems in your "examples" are all huge compared to the difference between PC Engine and SNES.



And besides, the PCE is the better system of the two, so your analogy doesn't even make sense.

[GUTS]

Besides, whats so special about Secret of Mana 3?  I played it, it looked like every other generic super nes RPG.  Plus it's slow as shit, maybe the PCE could actually speed it up a little since the SNES is a crippled slug with pretty transperancies.  Any system that can do Sapphire could have easily done SOM3 since Sapphire is WAY beyond what the shit SNES was capable of.

[TurboXray]

CrackTiger:

 There is another way to transparency effect with much less noticable flicker. It involves switching between two checker board patterns every 1/60 sec - each checker board is 180 phase of the other - resulting in much less flicker. There's also Hsync transparency effects doable on the PCE - see LOT and ShaperShifter for example.

 

You could do the Super Metroid super bomb effect on the PCE...it would just look like crapola.

You could with the Super Grafx - see here

 The SOM games on SNES seem to update/animate at 30fps instead of 60fps. I assume this might be because of the limited bandwidth the SNES has to its VRAM compared to other systems - doing dynamic tilemap updates and such. This is what Sega's advertising was refering to when had those commercials stating "blast processing". The marketing team trying to coin a term for non-techies.

[SignOfZeta]

Besides, whats so special about Secret of Mana 3?  I played it, it looked like every other generic super nes RPG.  Plus it's slow as shit, maybe the PCE could actually speed it up a little since the SNES is a crippled slug with pretty transperancies.  Any system that can do Sapphire could have easily done SOM3 since Sapphire is WAY beyond what the shit SNES was capable of.

Your raging hatred for SFC/SNES makes you a pretty worthless judge or witness in this discussion. People who actually appreciate both machines are more credible critics/witnesses/theoreticians/whatever.

[SignOfZeta]

CrackTiger:

 There is another way to transparency effect with much less noticable flicker. It involves switching between two checker board patterns every 1/60 sec - each checker board is 180 phase of the other - resulting in much less flicker. There's also Hsync transparency effects doable on the PCE - see LOT and ShaperShifter for example.

 

You could do the Super Metroid super bomb effect on the PCE...it would just look like crapola.

You could with the Super Grafx - see here

 The SOM games on SNES seem to update/animate at 30fps instead of 60fps. I assume this might be because of the limited bandwidth the SNES has to its VRAM compared to other systems - doing dynamic tilemap updates and such. This is what Sega's advertising was refering to when had those commercials stating "blast processing". The marketing team trying to coin a term for non-techies.

Well the screen shots look pretty cool, but since I'm on a Mac, and I don't think anyone has written a PCE emu that can do SGX on OSX, I'll have to take your word for it. I guess this makes the SGX even more of a huge disappointment in NEC's history since it could have done stuff like this.

[CrackTiger]

You can talk theories, and programming skill, and single screen tech demos made 10 years after the death of the system, but the shit never actually happened on the PCE during its life which leads me to believe that it was either impossible, or such a bitch that it wasn't worth it because there is no shortage of good programing in the PCE library.

You make a good point here, and it's one that I agree with. SD3 was never ported to the PCE, and no one ever really asked for SD3 to come out on the PCE anyway, because there were already tons of other great programs. All the theories about "how" to do it (or not do it) don't matter, because all the talk in the world can't change the past.

Although I think that if systems weren't retired to make way for new ones, that development for those systems would continue to progress to new levels we'd have never believed(look at euro & brazil SMS, the short life span of the Arcade Card, or even where the Neo Geo got to)...

-it's fine and well to say that with most major consoles, they were more or less fully utilized during their time. But the PC Engine is one of the exceptions where, maybe cuz its a bitch to program for or because of the HuCard/CD formats...

-it wasn't really pushed to very much of it's potential very often. There's more of a wide range in technical displays on PCE than on MD or SFC. Or in other words, for every Drac X and Lords', there are more technically simple (not necessarily bad)games than the other guys.

After the CD format took off, most games were made with quantity over intense quality. PCE fans didn't stop buying games that lacked parallax or 'Mode 7' when they had CD music, voice and cinemas in it's place. It sort of became it's own market like the N64 & amecube.

The Genesis however, was in direct competition with the SNES, so even though it lacked the nifty built-in effects that the SNES had, anyone publishing a top tier game for it had to really push the system to make some visually intensive games. There wasn't any reason to do this on PCE(other than pride).

More important than being able to push hardware though, is managing artwork/graphics. Square may have been great at getting nifty effects out of the SFC, but their games looked best because of how they used art. The main difference between Final Fantasy IV and SD3 or Dragon Quest V and VI is how they made the sprites and tiles. The best looking Genesis games use smart use of color to look like they're displaying double the system's limit.

If Square had the incentive to make a few killer PCE games, but wound up putting out a bunch of duds, then it would be a clearer sign that it was a matter of impossibility. But look at what Falcom and Quest did with the single PCE games they developed.

The PC Engine CD would be perfect for a later Square style game. Even if they used all static bg's and only nicely animated effects. As long as the quality artwork was there. Afterall, most of the crazy effects used for spells and such in SFC carts was a way to save on memory.

When Secret Of Mana was brought up as a dream 'lost game', I wasn't hoping for a straight port anyway. I think a PCE specific one would look at least as good overall. But if the SOM/SD games really are great games and not just eye candy, then keeping the gameplay intact should be the only concern with a port turning out, right?

But on a technical level, when someone says, "if it could be done it would've been", I say look at what a lowly homebrewer like Chris Covell has managed on his own in such a short period of time. And not just his PCE demos.

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, really wish new game systems only came out about half as often as they actually do. The things are left in the dust before they are even made use of. I mean, seriously, who the hell needs an Xbox 360? Do XBox games look like shit and I just can't see it?

Well, yeah, XBox games do look pretty bad most of the time, but that's an art issue, and not a power issue. I don't see why I'd need anything that looks better than Outrun, or Orta as long as I live. I'm still being blown away by Dreamcast games so I must be an old man or something.

[TurboXray]

SignOfZeta:

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~nekocan/group_soft/ht_soft.html

 You'll find the Mednafen PPC binary and the front end launcher - NekoLauncher. Mednafen emulates the SGX among other things.

[Keranu]

Great points by Emerald and Tiger.

[GUTS]

No, my grasp on reality makes me a judge.  Secret of mana looks like shit.  SOM3 looks ok but generic.  Those are the cold hard facts.

[grahf]

No, those are opinions. I happen to love Secret of Mana. Its not the nices game, but to say it looks like shit is absurd. Video games are artwork, and as such not everyone will like the way a certain one looks.

[OldRover]

I agree with grahf, especially knowing GUTS' track record.

[Keranu]

Secret of Mana looks great, GUTS is part of a minority when it comes to that opinion.

[SignOfZeta]

No, my grasp on reality makes me a judge.  Secret of mana looks like shit.  SOM3 looks ok but generic.  Those are the cold hard facts.

Not only are those things that cannot be proven, and therefore cannot be considered facts, but rather opinons, they are also very unpopular facts.

I know of a lot of SNES/SFC fans and all of them would say that SD3 is a top 5 game graphics-wise on the SFC. Of course since you think the SFC is piece of gimmicky shit with nothing to offer that means nothing to you. But really that just reenforces my point. You are no expert on the SFC subject. Similarly I couldn't even begin to tell you what the best Virtual Boy game is. I have no clue.

You are right when you say SD3 is slow. The gameplay in general could have been better. Saying its generic-looking is just kind of crazy. Its gorgeous.

BTW, just to clarify all this SD on PCE business, the game I'm saying is unportable to PCE in a decent manor is SD3. SD2 is just nice. Its not even close to as wonderful looking as SD3. Even so, some concessions would need to be made even with SD2 leaving a PCE port always the inferior joke in the same way we look at LoT for Sega CD, only much worse. More like the PS version of KOF98.

And to clarify what someone said about how transparencies and the Saturn "don't mix". I'm not sure what he was getting at, but the Saturn can certainly do transparencies, via hardware. Even ghetto level programers like Winky Soft have used it (Super Robot Wars F). It doesn't extent to polygons, and I'm not sure about sprites, but certainly it can be done with BG layers.

[SignOfZeta]

SignOfZeta:

http://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~nekocan/group_soft/ht_soft.html

 You'll find the Mednafen PPC binary and the front end launcher - NekoLauncher. Mednafen emulates the SGX among other things.

Wow. That looks friggn awesome!

But, as I predicted, it doesn't run for me with any of my PCE CDs, PCE ROM images, or GBA ROM images. It just produces an error that says, "Please refer to 'Status Information' for details", and I have no idea how to check whatever that is.

When it comes to these sorts of programs I've learned to just walk away and save the effort that would be wasted trying and failing to ever get them to work. Fink taught me that.

[Keranu]

Just to help GUTS out even though I don't necessarily agree with him:

[Emerald Rocker]

The funny thing is, the crap looks better than the game behind it.

[Keranu]

But just look at that transparency!

[guyjin]

I know this digression from the topic is partly my fault, but:

THE TOPIC IS WHAT GAMES YOU WISH WERE PORTED, NOT WETHER SUCH PORTS ARE POSSIBLE.

thank you.

[esteban]

I know this digression from the topic is partly my fault, but:

THE TOPIC IS WHAT GAMES YOU WISH WERE PORTED, NOT WETHER SUCH PORTS ARE POSSIBLE.

thank you.

hahahahhhahaha. I had been swept away by the recent discussions, so much so that even I forgot what the actual topic was!

[akamichi]

i'd have like to have seen:
Gradius 3
Ajax
SF2' Turbo
KOF94
Samurai Spirits
Original Kunio game (aka Renegade)
Bubble Bobble
Captain Commando (and any of the other simliar capcom side scrollers)
Kung Fu Master
Sky Shark
The other 19XX series shooters.

That's pretty much all I can think of right now.  I pretty much wanted every game I played in the arcade back in the day released on PCE.

[CrackTiger]

Yeah, really wish new game systems only came out about half as often as they actually do. The things are left in the dust before they are even made use of. I mean, seriously, who the hell needs an Xbox 360? Do XBox games look like shit and I just can't see it?

Well, yeah, XBox games do look pretty bad most of the time, but that's an art issue, and not a power issue. I don't see why I'd need anything that looks better than Outrun, or Orta as long as I live. I'm still being blown away by Dreamcast games so I must be an old man or something.

Ever since the end of the 32-bit era approached, I've been hoping each time that the generation would bring games with solid 60fps and no draw-in/pop-up, where 3D aspirations would no longer hamper gameplay.

But once again, developers are still trying to push the limits and the whole PS3 vs 360 will keep it that way for this generation and I now fear that it may be 20 years until we finally get games with consistantly solid graphics and therefore gameplay.

i'd have like to have seen:
Gradius 3
Ajax
SF2' Turbo
KOF94
Samurai Spirits
Original Kunio game (aka Renegade)
Bubble Bobble
Captain Commando (and any of the other simliar capcom side scrollers)
Kung Fu Master
Sky Shark
The other 19XX series shooters.

That's pretty much all I can think of right now.  I pretty much wanted every game I played in the arcade back in the day released on PCE.

You know what would've been cool? An original Gradius game for PCE with branching paths, kinda like Drac X and Darius. I know I already mentioned this with Contra, but once again, it just seems to make a lot of sense.

Although I don't seem to ever play beat-em-ups like Capt Commando on anything other than real arcade cabinets, it would be nice to have some more for PC Engine. I have yet to give Double Dragon, Crest
Of The Wolf and Downtown Neketsu(or whatever, -RRS) a serious try though. I don't know why COTW/Riot City gets such mediocre reviews, it looks like a decent Final Fight game to me, with huge sprites.

Again, Bubble Bobble would be perfectly suited to PCE and would completely the original trilogy. I expect at least a straight port to be developed by a homebrewer in the future and is the type of game that I once thought would be the perfect "inspiration" for an original PCE homebrew title. If we're talking dream games though, the Neo Geo Bubble Bobble games would turn out great on Arcade CD, especially if they load each level seperately.

I'd welcome pretty much any more Neo Geo ports, especially Magician Lord and Metal Slug and SS RPG.

I know this digression from the topic is partly my fault, but:

THE TOPIC IS WHAT GAMES YOU WISH WERE PORTED, NOT WETHER SUCH PORTS ARE POSSIBLE.

thank you.

hahahahhhahaha. I had been swept away by the recent discussions, so much so that even I forgot what the actual topic was!

I blame Seldane(again).

[GUTS]

I don't hate the snes, in fact Chrono Trigger and FFVI are 2 of my favorite games of all time.  I just think the graphics are way over rated by people easily impressed by shit, over-abused effects like mode 7.  Besides, I've played just as many SNES/SFAM as any of you guys that are sloppy in love with it, so that makes me just as qualified to judge snes graphics as anyone.

And Secret of Mana does look like shit.  The sprite limit is what, 3 fucking enemies on screen?  Pathetic.  Wow it has pretty colors!  Let's all ignore the fact that the game can't move more than 3 enemy sprites around at once, and even that slows everything down!  Plus the animation is shitty, the collision detection is highly suspect at best, and the treasure chest opening animation is so fucking AWFUL the sprite doesn't even touch the chest 90% of the time.  That game is just amatuer looking, half finished shit.

Part 3 looks like every other late era SNES RPG, which is nice but generic.  It's a decent game, but nothing incredible to look at by any stretch of the imagination.

[OldRover]

I don't know why COTW/Riot City gets such mediocre reviews, it looks like a decent Final Fight game to me, with huge sprites.

COTW/Riot Zone probably gets a lot of mediocre reviews because it's a rather mediocre game. It's fun but mediocre. Attack options are extremely limited, there's absolutely no weapons to pick up, and virtually all enemies can be defeated with a jump kick, leaving very little room for real strategy. It's good for some kill-or-be-killed fun from time to time but it's hard to take serious, as its lack of gameplay gets old pretty quickly. Final Fight was MUCH more entertaining. Even Streets Of Rage, with its much smaller sprites, was more fun.

Now there would be a great PCE port...Streets Of Rage.

[_Paul]

Crest of Wolf was a good showcase for how the Engine could do a scrolling beat em up with big sprites. It suffered from very rough and unfinished graphics, with none of the polish you expect from Husdon.
Gameplay is very samey, like a lot of games of this type. It's good if you want to zone out and play something mindless, it just goes on a bit long.

[SignOfZeta]

I don't know why COTW/Riot City gets such mediocre reviews, it looks like a decent Final Fight game to me, with huge sprites.

COTW/Riot Zone probably gets a lot of mediocre reviews because it's a rather mediocre game. It's fun but mediocre. Attack options are extremely limited, there's absolutely no weapons to pick up, and virtually all enemies can be defeated with a jump kick, leaving very little room for real strategy. It's good for some kill-or-be-killed fun from time to time but it's hard to take serious, as its lack of gameplay gets old pretty quickly. Final Fight was MUCH more entertaining.

The game pretty much sucks. I have the US version. Does anyone want to trade for it? Its boring and repetitive and just will...not...end...In other words its like Final Fight, but just slightly worse.

I really think Final Fight is just a bunch of boring crap. Compared to Technos brawlers Final Fight leaves you with almost nothing to do that you didn't see in the first 1 minute of play. Kunio owns Final Fight for free, in other words.

[RuninRuder]

I don't know why COTW/Riot City gets such mediocre reviews, it looks like a decent Final Fight game to me, with huge sprites.

Well, when a game delivers a line like "WHEAR'S THAT WARRANT" during its opening moments, it's pretty much setting itself up to be ripped on.  

But Riot Zone is fine as far as old-school brawling goes.  It does become tedious after a while and the animation stinks, but the gameplay is a lot like Final Fight.  I don't mind the lack of moves/weapons because I usually just mash buttons in these types of games anyway.  I wish it were as gritty as Final Fight and contained as many memorable tunes and enemies, but contrary to what some reviews say, it holds its own as a 16-bit brawler and isn't nearly as bad as, say, Rival Turf or Captain America.

[Keranu]

I always thought Riot Zone looked great. The game was pretty mediocre, but fun at least.

And Secret of Mana does look like shit.  The sprite limit is what, 3 fucking enemies on screen?  Pathetic.

I don't get it, why would you need a ton of sprites on screen to make a game look like it has good graphics? That would be a nice technical feature, but I think the casual gamer isn't going to care if it has a ton of sprites on screen or only a few.

Wow it has pretty colors!  Let's all ignore the fact that the game can't move more than 3 enemy sprites around at once, and even that slows everything down!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but pretty colors is something that's going to give the player an impression of good graphics. When the artist puts color to good use, people are going to think it looks nice.

Slowdown, yeah that's annoying but that doesn't effect the actual graphics. Hell you consider games like TFIV to look great, but that game suffers slowdown too. Or for my opinion, I think Twinkle Star Sprites looks great but it will have some mad slowdown at times. Does that change my opinion on the graphics? Absolutely not.

Plus the animation is shitty...

Finally a good point. Yes the animation is pretty average, but with artwork that most gamers seem to think is very good, the animation can be ignored.

the collision detection is highly suspect at best, and the treasure chest opening animation is so fucking AWFUL the sprite doesn't even touch the chest 90% of the time.

Collision detection... what does this have to do with bad graphics again? And as far as treasure chest animation, OH MY GOD it doesn't have over 10 frames of animation and doesn't shine or anything when you open it!! Really though, how many games back then did you see that used more than two frames of animation for opening a chest? Even games like FFVI which people really thought had great graphics only used two frames of animation. What a big loss in the graphics department.

That game is just amatuer looking, half finished shit.

I guess the artwork just didn't tickle your fancy as it did with most people. I give you respect though for sticking out like that.

Part 3 looks like every other late era SNES RPG, which is nice but generic.  It's a decent game, but nothing incredible to look at by any stretch of the imagination.

I used to think part 3 looked incredible when I first played it, but I don't think it looks so great anymore. Maybe it's because it does look pretty generic and that I prefer the more vibrant artwork of part 2 instead.

[CrackTiger]

I always though Riot Zone looked great. The game was pretty mediocre, but fun at least.

And Secret of Mana does look like shit.  The sprite limit is what, 3 fucking enemies on screen?  Pathetic.

I don't get it, why would you need a ton of sprites on screen to make a game look like it has good graphics? That would be a nice technical feature, but I think the casual gamer isn't going to care if it has a ton of sprites on screen or only a few.

Wow it has pretty colors!  Let's all ignore the fact that the game can't move more than 3 enemy sprites around at once, and even that slows everything down!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but pretty colors is something that's going to give the player an impression of good graphics. When the artist puts color to good use, people are going to think it looks nice.

Slowdown, yeah that's annoying but that doesn't effect the actual graphics. Hell you consider games like TFIV to look great, but that game suffers slowdown too. Or for my opinion, I think Twinkle Star Sprites looks great but it will have some mad slowdown at times. Does that change my opinion on the graphics? Absolutely not.

Plus the animation is shitty...

Finally a good point. Yes the animation is pretty average, but with artwork that most gamers seem to think is very good, the animation can be ignored.

the collision detection is highly suspect at best, and the treasure chest opening animation is so fucking AWFUL the sprite doesn't even touch the chest 90% of the time.

Collision detection... what does this have to do with bad graphics again? And as far as treasure chest animation, OH MY GOD it doesn't have over 10 frames of animation and doesn't shine or anything when you open it!! Really though, how many games back then did you see that used more than two frames of animation for opening a chest? Even games like FFVI which people really thought had great graphics only used two frames of animation. What a big loss in the graphics department.

That game is just amatuer looking, half finished shit.

I guess the artwork just didn't tickle your fancy as it did with most people. I give you respect though for sticking out like that.

Part 3 looks like every other late era SNES RPG, which is nice but generic.  It's a decent game, but nothing incredible to look at by any stretch of the imagination.

I used to think part 3 looked incredible when I first played it, but I don't think it looks so great anymore. Maybe it's because it does look pretty generic and that I prefer the more vibrant artwork of part 2 instead.

I think that the point GUTS was making with his non-graphics comments, is that the game isn't such a technical marvel that it would be completely impossible for a decent developer to make a PCE port that doesn't make some people vommit.

[Tatsujin]

Ajax

wasn't ajax the top-view heli game which using mode-7 like zoom/-scaling all the way? may be that one would've be one of the most impossible port to the pce

btw: what's happen to the announced port of Xexex? just seen some pre-pix in the mags back in the time. even the sky scaling/stretching and many of the rotation effects may not be possible to port, i'd liked to see the end result of it. or was it just a hoax?

[OldRover]

wasn't ajax the top-view heli game which using mode-7 like zoom/-scaling all the way? may be that one would've be one of the most impossible port to the pce

Ajax switched view styles a lot throughout the game. That game was hard as hell.

[GUTS]

I don't get it, why would you need a ton of sprites on screen to make a game look like it has good graphics? That would be a nice technical feature, but I think the casual gamer isn't going to care if it has a ton of sprites on screen or only a few.

Because how many sprites it's pushing around is part of the the graphical package.  Who cares if the colors are nice if the game can only display 3 sprites?  Gate of Thunder wouldn't be considered graphically intense if it weren't for the amount of action on screen, if there were only 3 enemies at a time everybody would think it looked like shit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but pretty colors is something that's going to give the player an impression of good graphics. When the artist puts color to good use, people are going to think it looks nice.



Slowdown, yeah that's annoying but that doesn't effect the actual graphics. Hell you consider games like TFIV to look great, but that game suffers slowdown too. Or for my opinion, I think Twinkle Star Sprites looks great but it will have some mad slowdown at times. Does that change my opinion on the graphics? Absolutely not.

If there were 3 enemy ships on screen in TFIV when the slowdown happened, then yeah, I'd say it looks like shit.  Secret of Mana is so technically underwhelming that the PCE could probably even do it BETTER than the SNES did.

Collision detection... what does this have to do with bad graphics again? And as far as treasure chest animation, OH MY GOD it doesn't have over 10 frames of animation and doesn't shine or anything when you open it!! Really though, how many games back then did you see that used more than two frames of animation for opening a chest? Even games like FFVI which people really thought had great graphics only used two frames of animation. What a big loss in the graphics department.

Like CrackTiger pointed out, I'm giving reasons why the game looked like shit and was easily possible on the PCE.  Besides, have you ever seen the treasure chest opening animation?  It's the most amatuer looking thing I've ever seen, the character doesn't even touch the chest half the time, and the other half the time the chest is touching his foot or head, and it shakes up and down about 50 fucking times with 2 frames of animation.  It's just terrible looking.  If another game tried to pull that shit people would be all over it complaining about how bad it looks, but for some reason SoM gets away with all kinds of badly done crap like that.

[Keranu]

All I have to say is that people think Secret of Mana looks nice because of it's visual graphics, not the processing aspects. The game could probably be easily done on PCE, but I think GUTS was also stating the visual graphics of the game "looked like shit" as well. Technically the PCE couldn't handle some colors used in SoM, as the screenshots I posted earlier show, but it does a decent enough job.

EDIT: By the way GUTS, lets settle this here. Why don't you think the PCE can handle Ranger X? I played through Ranger X and it didn't seem like anything the PCE couldn't handle to me, except that Genesis transparency effect it used only a little bit in level 2, which could be faked anyways. Other than, I'd say Gates of Thunder did anything that Ranger X did.

[TurboXray]

uhh-ohh

[Emerald Rocker]

oh dear

[Tatsujin]

punch line:

as we all know, all of the 3 systems had its weakness an strength! the SFC came up with beautiful colors and nice and smooth chip tunez but lacked a lot in speed and dynamic issues. the Mega drive in contrary was a much faster machine which was predestined for hardcore action games with raspy and brassy tunez but mostly show up a low palette in game grafx.
the PCE was the perfect mixture of both. with higher color on screen than the MD and also equal in velocity, the PCE could compete easily both of the system in almost all the genres available. and all the later cd-media and all the other adds strengthed up the system beyond anything.
although each of the system has its own unique titles which makes them all more than worth to own and praising.

a sapphire is only possible on the PCE, due to its arcade add on and tons of possible gadgetry!
an alien soldier may be is only pissible on the MD, since the action is overloaded to its max!
an axelay with all its beatiful BGs and technical gadgetry only on the SFC!

and now PLZ back to on-topic, you guys

[Seldane]

Why are you comparing Secret of Mana to various shmups? I don't get this. An action RPG doesn't need tons of sprites on-screen like a shmup does.  

[OldRover]

Why don't you think the PCE can handle Ranger X?

This should be good.    

[esteban]

Holy crap! This thread is just beginning!

[Seldane]

Holy crap! This thread is just beginning!

Well, message board discussions aren't supposed to end. If they did, this board would've been long gone!  

[cozzie]

One genre I think the Pc engine cannot complete with the other systems is driving games.

[CrackTiger]

punch line:

as we all know, all of the 3 systems had its weakness an strength! the SFC came up with beautiful colors and nice and smooth chip tunez but lacked a lot in speed and dynamic issues. the Mega drive in contrary was a much faster machine which was predestined for hardcore action games with raspy and brassy tunez but mostly show up a low palette in game grafx.
the PCE was the perfect mixture of both. with higher color on screen than the MD and also equal in velocity, the PCE could compete easily both of the system in almost all the genres available. and all the later cd-media and all the other adds strengthed up the system beyond anything.
although each of the system has its own unique titles which makes them all more than worth to own and praising.

a sapphire is only possible on the PCE, due to its arcade add on and tons of possible gadgetry!
an alien soldier may be is only pissible on the MD, since the action is overloaded to its max!
an axelay with all its beatiful BGs and technical gadgetry only on the SFC!

and now PLZ back to on-topic, you guys

Speaking of getting back on-topic, I think that Sapphire could been done reasonably well on both systems. They wouldn't be pixel for pixel perfect copies, but would be similar enough to be considered decent ports. Of course, I consider the Sega-CD port of Lords Of Thunder a success and not a reason to vommit, so take that into consideration.

One genre I think the Pc engine cannot complete with the other systems is driving games.

This thread was originally a want list of dream ports for the PC Engine and has been hijacked by "can the PCE even handle any ports at all?".

But as for real actual games that exist, it all depends on the type of driving games you're refering to.

I don't know if the PC Engine "cannot complete" with MD & SFC in Racing RPG's, Top-Down Racers, Super Sprint/single-screen Racers.

But if you're refering to behind the car, driving into the screen, arcade racers, the PC Engine still has a lot of them(maybe more than either the MD or SFC do), but none are fully polygonal or anything.

I haven't played many, but I imagine that of the ones which don't have mind blowng graphics, several must still have some decent gameplay and are fun.

[esteban]

FACT: The PCE couldn't handle the blazing fast gameplay of Hard Drivin' on the Genesis.

FACT: I'm kidding.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but was Hard Drivin' one of the earliest polygonal "racers" to make it to a 16-bit console?

[CrackTiger]

FACT: The PCE couldn't handle the blazing fast gameplay of Hard Drivin' on the Genesis.

FACT: I'm kidding.

I'm too lazy to look it up, but was Hard Drivin' one of the earliest polygonal "racers" to make it to a 16-bit console?

I was actually going to reference Hard Drivin' in my last post, since he said "driving" instead of 'racing' games and I don't remember the PCE having any actual 'driving' games.

Does this mean we can award Falcon and Gunboat earliest awards as well? For "earliest 16-bit console polygonal flight sim" and say... "earliest 16-bit console polygonal gunboat sim"?

[GUTS]

I'd give it the Gunboat award, but I think F-22 Raptor on Genesis was out way before Falcon on TG16.  F-22 actually had a pretty decent frame rate, plus you could go third person and see your jet so it was very impressive for the time.  I remember that was when I first played LHX in arcades and the whole notion of being able to move around in full 3D was amazing, I couldn't get enough of those crappy old polygon games.