Have you LOST any auctions lately?

[SamIAm]

Aye, you're free to disagree. I stand by my statements as well.

You say you disagree about re-evaluation. I think you're confusing evaluating how much the item is worth to you vs. how much it's worth to the market. As a bidder, if you're clever, you'll try to keep the market from driving up the price beyond what it's worth to you*. That's why buyers in any auction - real or internet - don't start with their highest bids. Doing that shoots up the price in a hurry. Instead they let people outbid them, and try to game them.

"Pricing" an item before an auction only goes so far if the item is rare and there are lots of bidders. That's part of what's so intriguing about auctions - it gives the market a chance to speak, and it doesn't make up its mind until the very end.

I'm not trying to say that gouging doesn't exist. However, when it comes to games like Magical Chase, the market has spoken, and nobody other than the lucky and the well-connected is going to get that game for what it was going for 10 years ago or whatever. Sometimes I think people around here are in denial about that. With supply and demand, it's what enough people are willing to pay that matters. Whatever price other people are NOT willing to pay does not matter.

And all that aside, I still don't see the big freaking deal about 10-minute extensions. It's better for everybody but the sniper. Again, do you think it causes any problems on yahoo?

*Yes, you.  

[grimm]

I think you are the one confused actually. Ive been talking about Ebay or internet auctions and sniping. I dont go to "normal" auctions. I set a maximum bid, i snipe, and often i win. Sometimes i dont, but then im greatful that i snipe, so i dont pay more than i was actually willing to when i rationally decided how much im willing to pay.

I have not once said anything about evaluation what so ever, and thus not if i agree or disagree with it, and i never will, since i pay what im willing to pay, regardless of what something is "market valued" at. for me its as simple as that. If someone wants to overpay for something because the "market value" is blown up, thats their problem, not mine. You may see the market as its own living entity, i see capitalism for what it is instead, and im not gonna help it along more than im forced to.

Again, ive been talking about sniping on ebay, nothing else. Dont read other things into it please as you will only confuse yourself that way.

[VestCunt]

You say you disagree about re-evaluation. I think you're confusing evaluating how much the item is worth to you vs. how much it's worth to the market.

I'm not confusing them. The going rate for a game and its personal value are distinct factors.

As a bidder, if you're clever, you'll try to keep the market from driving up the price beyond what it's worth to you*.  That's why buyers in any auction - real or internet - don't start with their highest bids.

You're welcome to refer to me in the second person; my objection is when you attribute personal, irrational, behavior to buyers in general.

Anyway, you make an interesting comparison and it holds true for standard auctions, online and otherwise, but Ebay doesn't work like that. Ebay's arbitrary end times have created a completely different paradigm. Pardon my hypocrisy while I now attempt to define the behavior of strangers...
The Four Types of Bidders on Ebay:
"Cruisers" - akin to the great, right whales filtering sustenance from the ocean through open mouths, Cruisers bid token amounts on countless items as they find them. Typically resellers or wealthy, indiscriminate collectors, these weirdos account for most of the early, pathetically low bids that appear. They don't worry about end times and they don't worry about being outbid; quantity alone sustains them.
"The Herd" - indecisive or clueless idiots with an integrity deficit. These are the noobs, the desperate, and the reselling gougers who get in bidding wars and allow the values of others to dictate their budget.
"Joe Gamer" - a dying breed of casual bidders who aren't particularly attached to the outcome. Sometimes they'll snipe, but typically they just place their max bid as late as conveniently possible and hope for the best. They don't get in bidding wars and they can't be bothered to sit by the computer at 3AM or pay for a sniping service.
"Snipers" - thought to be a fringe group of troublemakers, Snipers actually account for 70% of all gamers, collectors, and resellers on ebay.
 

"Pricing" an item before an auction only goes so far if the item is rare and there are lots of bidders. That's part of what's so intriguing about auctions - it gives the market a chance to speak, and it doesn't make up its mind until the very end.

Ebay auctions, especially if there's a bidding war, aren't necessarily representative of "the market". Some of them are. Others represent thirty-year-old bachelors with a tax return. And we're not dealing with any kind of a market in the traditional sense - Ebay, Amazon, Yahoo and the rest are a very small, global monopoly in which we have to compete with virtually every other TG16 enthusiast on the planet every time we want to buy a game. The brick-and-mortar stores and mom-and-pop online dealers that once provided some healthy, capitalist competition have either dried up or changed their prices to reflect ebay rates.

I really don't understand where you're coming from. Do you really sit there and constantly adjudicate your bid based on what other people are willing to pay that day? Most people snipe or wait as long as possible. "Pricing" works. I know what games are generally worth and I know what I'm willing to pay. I walk away from countless items in my watch list or in the last five seconds when I waiting to snipe because bidding goes too high.

And all that aside, I still don't see the big freaking deal about 10-minute extensions. It's better for everybody but the sniper. Again, do you think it causes any problems on yahoo?

I don't know, I've never bought anything on yahoo Japan auctions.

You keep saying that extensions would lead to higher auctions for sellers and more fees for ebay; please explain how this benefits non-sniping buyers (never mind that most serious buyers are snipers). Higher prices = bad for buyers. The buyers are already fucked. Sane people avoid bidding wars, period. Extensions work in a standard auction format because you're standing in a room with X number of people who've all managed to put clothes on that day and drive somewhere. On ebay, it would only give the most indecisive, desperate collectors on the planet more time to jerk off and rethink their bids.

I'm not trying to say that gouging doesn't exist. However, when it comes to games like Magical Chase, the market has spoken, and nobody other than the lucky and the well-connected is going to get that game for what it was going for 10 years ago or whatever. Sometimes I think people around here are in denial about that.

Here at least we're in full agreement. Prices ain't what they used to be. Our moderator Nat has argued time and again that Magical Chase is worth something like $180 and it's possible for anyone to find such a deal. The fact is, he helped the old-school TG collector from Dark City productions auction off his games here on the forums (perhaps the least-inflated TG market in the world), in the shout box (which half of us ignore) one night when one or two dozen people were around. He would not have won it for anything near that had Estaban, I, or countless other members known about the auction.

[CPTRAVE]

I like to say "I avoid bidding wars". 

[SamIAm]

You're welcome to refer to me in the second person; my objection is when you attribute personal, irrational, behavior to buyers in general.
Ebay doesn't work like that. Ebay's arbitrary end times have created a completely different paradigm.

My whole point is that this paradigm sucks, and it doesn't have to be quite like it is. Sniping works, and smart ebayers do it, but that doesn't mean it's a good system.

Ebay auctions, especially if there's a bidding war, aren't necessarily representative of "the market". Some of them are. Others represent thirty-year-old bachelors with a tax return. And we're not dealing with any kind of a market in the traditional sense - Ebay, Amazon, Yahoo and the rest are a very small, global monopoly in which we have to compete with virtually every other TG16 enthusiast on the planet every time we want to buy a game. The brick-and-mortar stores and mom-and-pop online dealers that once provided some healthy, capitalist competition have either dried up or changed their prices to reflect ebay rates.

Where exactly is the injustice happening in this situation?

Ebay and the gang are "the market" for probably the vast majority of retro-gamers, and they have become the dominant forces in determining the market value of 2nd hand collector goods. Overall, despite some downsides, it's good that they exist. They give everybody in the world access to buying and selling anything they could want. If mom-and-pops can't keep up, it ain't because of price-gouging BINs. It's because ebay deals are too cheap. Isn't that what you want?

I really don't understand where you're coming from. Do you really sit there and constantly adjudicate your bid based on what other people are willing to pay that day? Most people snipe or wait as long as possible. "Pricing" works. I know what games are generally worth and I know what I'm willing to pay. I walk away from countless items in my watch list or in the last five seconds when I waiting to snipe because bidding goes too high.

A big factor in determining how much you'll bid is simply trying to avoid paying more than the item can reliably be resold for. For collectors, that's basically the definition of "paying too much".

If the item is so rare as to be a once-a-year thing, then yes, I really do believe that people adjust their estimations of the item's market value based on the progress of a single auction. Until the auction ends, that's the only way they can gauge what the current demand is.

I don't know, I've never bought anything on yahoo Japan auctions.

I've bought about ten things and watched 2-3 times as many auctions end. I don't recall a single one going into overtime. I would bet money that the number of auctions that go beyond 30 minutes extra is no more than one in a thousand. People have no motivation to keep bidding that late when extensions are in place.

Remember that every time someone bids, the price goes up, and it can't go up forever.

You keep saying that extensions would lead to higher auctions for sellers and more fees for ebay; please explain how this benefits non-sniping buyers (never mind that most serious buyers are snipers). Higher prices = bad for buyers. The buyers are already fucked. Sane people avoid bidding wars, period. Extensions work in a standard auction format because you're standing in a room with X number of people who've all managed to put clothes on that day and drive somewhere. On ebay, it would only give the most indecisive, desperate collectors on the planet more time to jerk off and rethink their bids.

OK, first of all, higher prices are good for the buyer who would prefer to pay them in order to get the item. Tell me you've never lost an auction and said to yourself that yeah, you actually would have paid another $2 to get the item now instead of waiting for the next chance. With time extensions, the item will more often go to the guy who really is willing to pay the most, and that's more satisfying for the group as a whole. The seller makes the most money, the guy who wanted it most got the item, and the rest can tell themselves that they didn't pay more than they wanted to.

Second of all, what's with all the vilifying of collectors with money? The "thirty-year-old bachelors with a tax return" have just as much a right to participate in all this as anyone else. I'm sure they know how to dress themselves, too. Yes, resellers are kind of sketchy, but passing around great deals willy-nilly can be stupid as well.

Remember the $100 Keith Courage scenario? If you lean toward giving it to the guy for $1, then you are indeed very kind. However, when that guy turns around and sells it to the next guy for a $99 profit, it's not much use complaining.  Unless you can somehow enforce terms of resale, you should always sell it for as much as you can get. In other words, take the damn $100.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

However, when it comes to games like Magical Chase, the market has spoken, and nobody other than the lucky and the well-connected is going to get that game for what it was going for 10 years ago or whatever. Sometimes I think people around here are in denial about that.

So the only thing that matters in determining its value is the latest eBay auction?  Gimme a break.

Tell me you've never lost an auction and said to yourself that yeah, you actually would have paid another $2 to get the item now instead of waiting for the next chance.

Never - why would I place a max bid of $20 when I'm really willing to pay $22?  Besides, it's more than likely that the winning bidders max bid was higher than the winning bid amount.

With time extensions, the item will more often go to the guy who really is willing to pay the most, and that's more satisfying for the group as a whole. The seller makes the most money, the guy who wanted it most got the item, and the rest can tell themselves that they didn't pay more than they wanted to.

Yes, it's most satisfying to me when I pay absolute top dollar.  I fucking hate it when I get a good deal.

In other words, take the damn $100.

In other words, be an asshole.  Other people might be assholes, so you should be one too.

* forgot this: *

I've bought about ten things and watched 2-3 times as many auctions end. I don't recall a single one going into overtime. I would bet money that the number of auctions that go beyond 30 minutes extra is no more than one in a thousand. People have no motivation to keep bidding that late when extensions are in place.

If time extensions are rarely ever needed, why is it so important that eBay add the option?

[Arkhan Asylum]

I've never had the extension on Yahoo go forever.   I had one go for an extra hour once.

I still won.  Fuckers.  I only had to reup my bid and try scrounging for money.  It went for the proper going rate though.  I was hoping for a bargain, but the snipers came out to try doing the same.  -_-;


If some retard came up to me with 100$ for KC, I'd take the 100$ and donate it to one of those retard charities so the buyer and others like him can get some well needed assistance!  >:]  lol

[SamIAm]

So the only thing that matters in determining its value is the latest eBay auction?  Gimme a break.

Never said it was the only thing. Just a major factor. Do you disagree with that as well?

Never - why would I place a max bid of $20 when I'm really willing to pay $22?  Besides, it's more than likely that the winning bidders max bid was higher than the winning bid amount.

Fairly likely, yes. But who knows? And what if the item was ~$100 and rarely came along? Would you not for a moment question spending an additional 2% to get yourself the item now instead of later?

I'd gladly pay the $2 not to have to wait for another month.

Yes, it's most satisfying to me when I pay absolute top dollar.  I fucking hate it when I get a good deal.

Good for you.

Think about this for a moment - could it be that the fear of being sniped sometimes leads people to artificially inflate their maximum bids, and ultimately the item's market value? Could it be that in an ebay without sniping, for every instance of an item's end-price going up because of additional bids in overtime, there would be another item that sells for less because people bid a little more sincerely?

At least both results are fair. Sniping, on the other hand, is ultimately nothing more than a sneaky trick. You're trying to prevent your competition from having a chance to bid higher than you. You say that they should have bid higher in the first place, when all they were trying to do with their less-than-true-max bid was keep the price from flying out of control and save money - the very same thing you're trying to do. The difference is that they weren't trying to wholly prevent anyone from outbidding them.

It works, and I've done it, but sniping is devious and unnecessary in online auctions. That real-life auction houses use a "going once, going twice" type of system and both buyers and sellers seem to prefer this is indication enough that forced end-times are ebay's bad design. Yahoo proves that there's no reason why an internet auction can't be just like a real auction in this case.

In other words, be an asshole.  Other people might be assholes, so you should be one too.

Well, either that or don't say shit when the guy - a stranger who owes you nothing after your transaction is complete - sells it for $100.

If time extensions are rarely ever needed, why is it so important that eBay add the option?

Because it changes bidder's behavior altogether. Sniping ceases to be effective. In my opinion, that change is for the better.

[Bernie]

When its something I really want, I will bid snipe, or whatever its called.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.  I know what amount I plan on bidding up to before I actually enter that "snipe" bid. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

I do shotgun bidding sometimes.

I go find like a buncha crap I like, and bid on all of it and forget about it.

then I get emails like a week later saying I owe like, 200$ on eBay and I go

FUCK.

then I go

SWEET. LOOK AT THIS CRAP I WON.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Never said it was the only thing. Just a major factor. Do you disagree with that as well?

I do - it's part of the picture, but not the biggest part; if a mere handful are willing to pay $1000 for M.C. when as many copies (or more) have been sold off eBay for considerably less, then those few high priced sales are not setting the worth of the hundreds of other copies in existence.  By the way, why are you so focused on M.C.?  It's relative rarity makes it a rather different kettle of fish compared to 99.9999999999% of other auctions.

Fairly likely, yes. But who knows? And what if the item was ~$100 and rarely came along? Would you not for a moment question spending an additional 2% to get yourself the item now instead of later?

I'd gladly pay the $2 not to have to wait for another month.

Then you were willing to pay $102 (or $105, or $110, etc.) and should have bid accordingly.  You might want to rethink your definition of 'max bid' - to me and other logically minded fellows, it means the most I'd comfortably be willing to pay, not some pie in the sky, hoped for price.

Think about this for a moment - could it be that the fear of being sniped sometimes leads people to artificially inflate their maximum bids, and ultimately the item's market value? Could it be that in an ebay without sniping, for every instance of an item's end-price going up because of additional bids in overtime, there would be another item that sells for less because people bid a little more sincerely?

The only way this works is if snipers quit bidding all together, which obviously won't happen.  They'll just place their bids earlier, more people will react/overreact and place higher bids than they intended (part of your constant reevaluation of worth), and the ending values would be higher.  Despite what you believe, that's not a good thing.

At least both results are fair. Sniping, on the other hand, is ultimately nothing more than a sneaky trick.

It's so sneaky that everyone knows about it and expects it.

You're trying to prevent your competition from having a chance to bid higher than you.

No, I'm trying to prevent others from rebidding higher (there's a difference).  Besides resellers looking to flip pricier items, it's people like you that keep re-upping their bid by a few dollars to try and top the current high bidder that are driving up prices.  Sniping is a defense against such silliness.

You say that they should have bid higher in the first place, when all they were trying to do with their less-than-true-max bid was keep the price from flying out of control and save money - the very same thing you're trying to do. The difference is that they weren't trying to wholly prevent anyone from outbidding them.

Less than 10% of my bid snipes are successful, either because bidding has already progressed beyond my snipe amount, due to a more aggressive sniper, or because a previous bidders max bid was higher, so others are obviously getting their chance to win.

It works, and I've done it, but sniping is devious and unnecessary in online auctions. That real-life auction houses use a "going once, going twice" type of system and both buyers and sellers seem to prefer this is indication enough that forced end-times are ebay's bad design. Yahoo proves that there's no reason why an internet auction can't be just like a real auction in this case.

Have you been to a live auction?  It's hardly uncommon for someone to wait for the last moment to start bidding, leaving others very little time to 're-evaluate' what they're willing to bid.  Consequently, bidders have already set in their minds what their max bid is.  Do you see where I'm going with this?

Well, either that or don't say shit when the guy - a stranger who owes you nothing after your transaction is complete - sells it for $100.

No thanks, I'm a adult.  If someone takes his good fortune and parlays it into a payday by fucking someone over, I'll bitch about it all I want (a.k.a. - verbally throwing them on the ground!).

[SamIAm]

I do - it's part of the picture, but not the biggest part; if a mere handful are willing to pay $1000 for M.C. when as many copies (or more) have been sold off eBay for considerably less, then those few high priced sales are not setting the worth of the hundreds of other copies in existence.  By the way, why are you so focused on M.C.?  It's relative rarity makes it a rather different kettle of fish compared to 99.9999999999% of other auctions.

I suppose we'll just have to disagree about ebay's influence. As for MC, I'm just using it as an example. Have I mentioned it that much?

Then you were willing to pay $102 (or $105, or $110, etc.) and should have bid accordingly.  You might want to rethink your definition of 'max bid' - to me and other logically minded fellows, it means the most I'd comfortably be willing to pay, not some pie in the sky, hoped for price.

I really don't buy that people in general can decide a price like that and not blink when a 1% increase could potentially make the difference to get them the item. I think people have a price that they'd really like to pay, and after that it becomes a darkening spectrum toward an unacceptable price, and they may bail at any point along the way.

Furthermore, my point still stands that people don't want to reveal their max bids until it's necessary for the sake of keeping the price as low as possible.

The only way this works is if snipers quit bidding all together, which obviously won't happen.  They'll just place their bids earlier, more people will react/overreact and place higher bids than they intended (part of your constant reevaluation of worth), and the ending values would be higher.  Despite what you believe, that's not a good thing.

Maybe that concept I mentioned works, maybe it doesn't. Extensions that prevent sniping still strike me as being more fair. Snipers won't stop bidding, but they'll be left with no advantages that others don't have.

It's so sneaky that everyone knows about it and expects it.

Regardless of how many know about it, nothing changes about the fact that snipers are trying to block people from even having the chance to outbid them. "Sneaky" was a poor choice of adjective. How about "selfish"?

No, I'm trying to prevent others from rebidding higher (there's a difference).

Please explain. I see no difference between "rebidding" and "bidding". Neither does ebay or any other site, or they'd only let you make one max bid.

Besides resellers looking to flip pricier items, it's people like you that keep re-upping their bid by a few dollars to try and top the current high bidder that are driving up prices.  Sniping is a defense against such silliness.

Those "re-ups" are honest bids. You have the chance to outbid me. If you don't, then I guess I'm willing to pay more than you. What's the problem? That's how auctions work.

Think I'm driving up the market? Ask sellers how they feel about that. This is business.

Less than 10% of my bid snipes are successful, either because bidding has already progressed beyond my snipe amount, due to a more aggressive sniper, or because a previous bidders max bid was higher, so others are obviously getting their chance to win.

I don't think sniping is a dire problem, but I do think that yahoo's solution is better and more fair.

Have you been to a live auction?  It's hardly uncommon for someone to wait for the last moment to start bidding, leaving others very little time to 're-evaluate' what they're willing to bid.  Consequently, bidders have already set in their minds what their max bid is.  Do you see where I'm going with this?

I get what you're trying to say, but if people were that strongly decided on what their maximums were, auctions wouldn't exist as they do. Rather, everyone would privately submit a single bid, the seller would take the highest one, and that would be the end of it. Yet bids in an open auction keep coming because people change their minds about how much they're willing to pay.

No thanks, I'm a adult.  If someone takes his good fortune and parlays it into a payday by fucking someone over, I'll bitch about it all I want (a.k.a. - verbally throwing them on the ground!).

I think it's immoral for a someone to come into a community like this one and turn good deals that are meant to help other members play into profit. That violates an unwritten term of the community. If they acquire and turn stuff over completely within a marketplace like ebay, though, I have to say that it may be frustrating, but it's fair.

Let the buyer beware.

[VestCunt]

Sniping, on the other hand, is ultimately nothing more than a sneaky trick.

Necro's right - it's a defense against silliness.  I like said before, everyone has the ability to bid whatever the game is worth to them. This universe grants us "choice" in everything we do and no one else has the power to take that away. Weak-minded people blame snipers for their losses rather than feel regret from bad decision making.

And you're back to assuming things about me that aren't true - I have never once wished I had bid an extra two dollars. First, you never know how high the winner's max bid really was. It could have topped at $2, but more likely it was $20. Second, my max bid really is my max bid. When I just barely win an auction, I'm kind of happy, but I also feel a substantial amount of "oh fuck, it's going to be two days before I can come up with that $72.11." I NEVER feel regret from a loss. The auction frenzy quickly vanishes and I walk away glad to have the money for something else. The only time I feel regret is when I forget to bid entirely and the item sells for a pittance.

[SamIAm]

My max bid, at least in the final hour, is usually as much as I can allow myself to pay as well. However, I still believe what I said in that second-to-last paragraph in my last post.

What you call "silliness", I call people each getting the same opportunity, weak-minded or otherwise. I'll take that equality over you and other individual's vigilante moderation of "bad decision making" via your sniping.

[BlueBMW]

Sooo many walls o text!!!  My eyes hurt.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

I really don't buy that people in general can decide a price like that and not blink when a 1% increase could potentially make the difference to get them the item.

But where does it end?  I bid $100, he bids $101, I rebid to $102 (it's a mere $2!), his max bid automatically takes it to $103, I rebid to $104 (it's only $2 more!), his max bid automatically drives it up to $105, I rebid to $106 (it's still only two bucks more!), etc.

Furthermore, my point still stands that people don't want to reveal their max bids until it's necessary for the sake of keeping the price as low as possible.

But nobody can see your max bid until you've been outbid.... what're you trying to do?  Hide your real max bid as long as possible?  Just snipe already.

Please explain. I see no difference between "rebidding" and "bidding". Neither does ebay or any other site, or they'd only let you make one max bid.

bid: to make an offer to pay a certain price
rebid: to offer a revised bid.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?  In any case, I didn't say you weren't allowed to revise bids.

Those "re-ups" are honest bids. You have the chance to outbid me. If you don't, then I guess I'm willing to pay more than you. What's the problem? That's how auctions work.

And you have the option of bidding an item above my limit or setting a max bid above my limit.  If you don't, then I guess I was willing to pay more than you.  What's the problem?  That's how auctions work.

Think I'm driving up the market? Ask sellers how they feel about that. This is business.

It's srs bsns!  Of course the sellers (especially resellers) like the market being driven ever higher.... what's your point?

[SamIAm]

So I take it that when you snipe, it's always your first bid? Because if it's not, you're being a hypocrite. You're preventing someone from doing what you're doing when you have no particular right, just a better sniping program.

But where does it end?  I bid $100, he bids $101, I rebid to $102 (it's a mere $2!), his max bid automatically takes it to $103, I rebid to $104 (it's only $2 more!), his max bid automatically drives it up to $105, I rebid to $106 (it's still only two bucks more!), etc.

Trust me, it won't go on forever.

[VestCunt]

I get what you're trying to say, but if people were that strongly decided on what their maximums were, auctions wouldn't exist as they do. Rather, everyone would privately submit a single bid, the seller would take the highest one, and that would be the end of it. Yet bids in an open auction keep coming because people change their minds about how much they're willing to pay.

You've got a good point here. As much as I try to ignore it, there is a "fun" factor that draws people to auctions and some folks thrive on the excitement. To me it looks really stupid; like mindless consumerism at best or gambling at worst. I lump bid-revisers in the same category as the lifeforms who stand in line and trample each other on Black Friday...

ANYWAY, yeah, I guess my preference for sniping is an effort to turn ebay into that everyone-place-one-bid-and-be-done-with-it system you mentioned. That would be sweet. 

[SamIAm]

ANYWAY, yeah, I guess my preference for sniping is an effort to turn ebay into that everyone-place-one-bid-and-be-done-with-it system you mentioned. That would be sweet. 

Now THAT would strike me as being fair.

However, I'll take the auction format myself.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

So I take it that when you snipe, it's always your first bid?

Yep.  True to its name, I only have one max bid.

Trust me, it won't go on forever.

Of course not, but it also doesn't just stop at 'only $2 more'.

[SamIAm]

Yep.  True to its name, I only have one max bid.

All right, then.

The approach you advocate isn't unfair. However, think of it this way - If everyone shoots in one bid in the last second (the timing should make no difference to them), and ebay calculates the high bidder right then and there without anyone so much as even seeing what others are doing, it's hardly an auction anymore. It's a new game altogether, and I'm not sure how much I'd want to play, as a buyer or a seller. Maybe that's just me, though.

Trust me, it won't go on forever.

Of course not, but it also doesn't just stop at 'only $2 more'.

I'm still not worried.

EDIT: My final thought on this:

In order for sniping and forced end-times to be fair, information about how much is being bid should be kept a secret until after the winner is determined. This prevents anyone from having an unfair advantage. I believe the ideal would be to give sellers a choice of two options: having a forced end-time coupled with non-disclosed bids, or having openly visible bids coupled with the possibility of end-time extension.

Does that jive with your views?

[tpivette]

Lost another auction for a complete (no box) Neutopia. This is the 3rd time I've been outbid on this game. Looks like if I want to win this from ebay I'll have to spend more than $25 shipped

[420GOAT]

Lost another auction for a complete (no box) Neutopia. This is the 3rd time I've been outbid on this game. Looks like if I want to win this from ebay I'll have to spend more than $25 shipped

thats why i buy it now, in a month that price will jump and then youll be in it for more.

[tpivette]

There was a complete in jewel case BIN Neutopia for $25 (+$5 shipping) that I passed on... kinda wishing I didn't now as all the auctions have been going for slightly more lately

[VestCunt]

In order for sniping and forced end-times to be fair...

Does that jive with your views?

The fairness argument still doesn't make a lick of sense. Everyone has the exact same footing on ebay. I'm not friends with any employees giving me insider bidding information, I don't have a price guide with exact market values, I'm not hacking anyone's computer or blocking their internet access at the last second, and I'm not a mind reader or a hypnotist. If my snipe doesn't win the auction (which happens frequently), I'm not left with any time to revise my bid, either. Does sniping deviate from a traditional auction? Yes. Maybe it even makes it less "fun" for those with an appetite for such things, but ANYONE COULD DO WHAT I DO (and most do). If someone doesn't feel like sitting at their computer, then they can pay twenty cents and use Esnipe.

Virtually every auction has multiple snipers waiting at the end; it's a fact of life. Everyone experiences what it's like to be sniped within their first few visits to ebay. Fool me once...

[SamIAm]

Virtually every auction has multiple snipers waiting at the end; it's a fact of life. Everyone experiences what it's like to be sniped within their first few visits to ebay. Fool me once...

On the other hand, with the system I mentioned, there would be no fooling at all. The terms would be clear from the start, and the whole "auction" masquerade would come to an end. Is that not more fair?

[VestCunt]

Your proposal might lead to more deliberation, it might prolong the "thrill" of consumerism and compulsive bidding, and it would certainly lead to higher prices, but it has nothing to do with fairness. The only way in which the current system is unfair is that snipers who choose to live in extremely rural locations may be forced to use dial-up, in which case they have to either place their snipes ten seconds before everyone else or use a sniping service - not a big deal.

My jaw dropped the first time I was sniped in 1998, but it wasn't unfair because I would not have exceeded my max bid. The shock came from naiveté - I had begun to feel ownership for an object that was not yet mine. The lesson I learned was not to count my chickens before they're hatched. Making a false assumption or taking a clumsy first step is part doing anything for the first time. Everybody on ebay has equal footing and everybody learns the rules of the road in short order.

Is ebay the best system? No. IMO, sniping and traditional auctions are both a pain in the butt because they both require participation in the final moments. Is ebay unfair? Absolutely not.

EDIT: also, they're no masquerade - every auction has a clock counting down. No one would expect extensions at the last second.

[DragonmasterDan]

Just one quick note, the existence of snipers and retaliatory bidding just causes more people to snipe. Example, yesterday a game I wanted was due to end. I knew what I wanted to bid long before the auction was over. But because of the likely possibility of jackasses bidding over and over and over and raising the price until they felt the satisfaction of "winning". I waited until 5 seconds left to put in my bid. This didn't give any retaliatory bidders who weren't also prepared to snipe an opportunity to outbid me. And I won my game for about 50.00 less than Vestcunt got for his copy a few months ago. This is consumerism at its finest, if you have the time and opportunity, good deals can be had if you're willing to bid at the right time.

[SamIAm]

Is ebay the best system? No.

That's all I really wanted to hear.

Rather than get into a semantics debate about the word "fair", let me just ask - Why not implement that system I mentioned? Don't you think it's better if forcing all bids to be concealed until the end leads people to think that they might as well just make one large bid anytime before the auction ends? Isn't that what you want?

Ebay in it's current state is trying to have what you want (1 max bid per person) and what I want (a guaranteed rebid opportunity for a person with an undecided maximum) at the same time, and it's simply bad design.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Don't you think it's better if forcing all bids to be concealed until the end leads people to think that they might as well just make one large bid anytime before the auction ends? Isn't that what you want?

This sounds like a silent auction, which many people would definitely not like.  Few would like waiting 'til the end to see how much they've spent (if anything), being forced to pass up other possible deals for fear of overreaching or ending up with two of the same title.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I just bid right away.  If I am outbid, I go find a new one and see if I can get it for the price I want to pay.

I usually go for about half what I am willing to pay, and if I get outbid and haven't found it elsewhere, I shoot it up to my max bid.

[SamIAm]

Few would like waiting 'til the end to see how much they've spent (if anything), being forced to pass up other possible deals for fear of overreaching or ending up with two of the same title.

But is that so different from waiting until the end for the impending sniper fight?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Yes, because if you already bid your max and you've been outbid, you can go off and find a new auction.

[SamIAm]

Considering that auctions for things you want virtually never end simultaneously, that shouldn't be important. Bid your max bid on the one that's ending next. Didn't get it? Do it again for the next one.

[SignOfZeta]

When Arkhan is the voice of reason, you're clearly listening in on a crazy people conversation.

Seriously, retards. Just bid. Once. Doesn't matter when. Learn by email I you've won or not.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

But is that so different from waiting until the end for the impending sniper fight?

It is different when the price is already higher than what I'm willing to pay, hours or even days before the auction ends.

Considering that auctions for things you want virtually never end simultaneously, that shouldn't be important. Bid your max bid on the one that's ending next. Didn't get it? Do it again for the next one.

I don't live in front of a computer, so it's quite common (especially on weekends) that two or more auctions end before I'm back online.  Why should I wait around if the price is already higher than what I want to pay?

[SamIAm]

So it's down to convenience vs. opportunity, eh?

Perhaps it speaks well for your argument that I'm actually going to have to bow out now due to inconvenience. My plane across the Pacific for my brother's wedding in New York leaves today, and I have to get ready.

Happy bidding, anyway.

[FiftyQuid]

My plane across the Pacific for my brother's wedding in New York leaves today, and I have to get ready.

Damn.  I was sure Necromancer would hit 10,000 posts before this conversation ended.  Looks like I owe Bernie $20.

[Bernie]

My plane across the Pacific for my brother's wedding in New York leaves today, and I have to get ready.

Damn.  I was sure Necromancer would hit 10,000 posts before this conversation ended.  Looks like I owe Bernie $20.

??  Why would you owe me $20?

[SamIAm]

Damn.  I was sure Necromancer would hit 10,000 posts before this conversation ended.  Looks like I owe Bernie $20.

I've got a layover, and Seoul has free wifi, so I'll see what I can do.

Necro, the truth is, I don't like silent auctions any more than you do. You're totally right about the inconvenience factor as well, which I hadn't even thought of. But let's keep thinking about alternatives for a moment.

What about a system where bids are visable, and everyone only gets one bid? That would apparently suit most people here just fine. However, how popular would this system be? There would probably be a huge reaction against it.

The whole idea behind an auction, the thing that brings people to the table, is that the guy who is willing to pay the most gets the item. With Ebay's current system, you can have a guy who has decided that he is willing to pay more, but can't because he was cut off by the time limit before he even knew he was outbid. He never got a chance to make the decision to let the item go.

I know that's not how you and vestcunt tick, and that it's possible to place a higher bid in advance of the end, yet you guys at least seem to acknowledge that people with uncertain maximums will always exist in spite that. However, your response to their situation on ebay is to blow them off and say that they're too stupid to know what's good for them and that giving them their way would poison the market. It's awfully bold of you to say that a cheaper price for you is better than a higher price for them, even though they and the seller would disagree. It's the interest of one sniper against the interest of two others.
 
How do you think seasoned bidders of traditional live auctions would react to the proposal of a time limit? I realize it would be hard to implement, but set that aside for a moment. How would the group as a whole feel? Never mind the sellers, most bidders would probably say that they don't want it because they don't want to lose any opportunity to outbid someone. I bet most yahoo users would say so, too, and I bet the majority ebayers would also say the same thing given the chance to try it.

The reason why I think ebay should have time extensions like yahoo is because it's the best system for the whole group. Nobody risks being cut off by time, only by money, and that's something I think all winners, all losers, and all sellers alike feel is fair.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

The whole idea behind an auction, the thing that brings people to the table, is that the guy who is willing to pay the most gets the item. With Ebay's current system, you can have a guy who has decided that he is willing to pay more, but can't because he was cut off by the time limit before he even knew he was outbid. He never got a chance to make the decision to let the item go.

He had a chance by setting his max bid as his MAX BID.  Unless it's his first auction or he's a complete moron, he should've expected bid sniping and bid appropriately.

I know that's not how you and VestCunt tick, and that it's possible to place a higher bid in advance of the end, yet you guys at least seem to acknowledge that people with uncertain maximums will always exist in spite that.

Except in the rare case of something like Magical Chase, similar items are sold regularly and there's absolutely no reason that bidders can't figure out what an item is worth before the other guy bids.

However, your response to their situation on ebay is to blow them off and say that they're too stupid to know what's good for them and that giving them their way would poison the market. It's awfully bold of you to say that a cheaper price for you is better than a higher price for them, even though they and the seller would disagree. It's the interest of one sniper against the interest of two others.

How many times do I have to say that sellers, eBay, and omg rar3z collectors obviously love high prices but this community does not?  If you're so eager to pay more, then set your maximum bid as your MAXIMUM BID!

The reason why I think ebay should have time extensions like yahoo is because it's the best system for the whole group. Nobody risks being cut off by time, only by money, and that's something I think all winners, all losers, and all sellers alike feel is fair.

The only thing 'unfair' about the current system is that you have to figure out what something is worth instead of just bidding $1 more than what the other guy thinks it's worth.

[FiftyQuid]

??  Why would you owe me $20?

I was pretending that I made a bet with you an lost.  Now you'll never see that $20. 

[VestCunt]

With Ebay's current system, you can have a guy who has decided that he is willing to pay more, but can't because he was cut off by the time limit before he even knew he was outbid. He never got a chance to make the decision to let the item go.

Them's the breaks. You can't shelter idiots from the world, dude. If you protect them from being outbid, they're still going to get gouged on BIN's, and ripped off by the fast-talking salesman at Radioshack, and screwed on the stockmarket, and they're always going to buy their plane tickets at the worst possible time. The world is full of rewards for people with the rare ability to place a value on an object in a reasonable amount of time. If a 3-10 day auction isn't long enough, another five minutes isn't going to do any good.

And you can take this "higher prices = everybody wins" BS and jump straight off a cliff.