Mac vs Big Brother

[spenoza]

The classic Windows MIDI model had real problems with latency. That's why the Mac was the defacto professional MIDI platform for a long time. Now that there's USB MIDI adaptors and other fun stuff those problems have largely become a thing of the past.

[Arkhan Asylum]

The classic Windows MIDI model had real problems with latency. That's why the Mac was the defacto professional MIDI platform for a long time. Now that there's USB MIDI adaptors and other fun stuff those problems have largely become a thing of the past.

on the contrary, USB midi sucks balls.

I use an MAudio midi card that still has a giant DIN on the back.

[spenoza]

I haven't worked with USB MIDI, but I know some individuals who have who haven't had any complaints, at least not compared to the old latency and timing issues with classic Windows MIDI 2000 and earlier.

[Arkhan Asylum]

My midi guitar and keyboard both lag like ass on Windows 7 w/ USB midi.

It is pretty awful

[spenoza]

The folks I know use Macs, so it may be Windows still sucks for MIDI without expensive equipment.

[OldMan]

The classic Windows MIDI model had real problems with latency

Seconded. That's why I gave up for a few years....

I haven't worked with USB MIDI, but I know some individuals who have who haven't had any complaints

The folks I know use Macs, so it may be Windows still sucks for MIDI without expensive equipment.

Still lags over usb. On windows XP with a midi-in on a sound card (5 pin din), it's much, much better.

And back on topic, still waiting to see what's up with the master disc....<sigh>

[Arkhan Asylum]

What I like about Windows is I can get a 60$ soundcard and experience fast MIDI.

You get great USB response on a Mac...

but the damn computer costs like 409350980948$

[BlueBMW]

Ive used my midi keyboard via usb on win 7 and havent had any latency issues at all.  Maybe Im lucky

[spenoza]

but the damn computer costs like 409350980948$

This has been disproved so many times it hurts to still hear the myth.

You can get a Mac for $600, and the $600 Mac is perfectly adequate for MIDI.

[OldRover]

It only hurts Mac zealots.

[TheClash603]

but the damn computer costs like 409350980948$

This has been disproved so many times it hurts to still hear the myth.

You can get a Mac for $600, and the $600 Mac is perfectly adequate for MIDI.

The same $600 could build me a PC with 4x the power.  That's not an exaggeration.

However, the $600 Mac would look prettier and impress more people at the coffee shop than my powerhouse.  So I guess you got that.

[spenoza]

It is absolutely an exaggeration. Show me a computer that's 4x faster than a Core i5 mini for $600. Go ahead. And how come I don't see you complaining that you can build a Dell for 1/2 of what Dell charges.

As for the Apple zealot comment, I don't own a Mac. I use a PC I built from parts. A number of media outlets like Ars Technica have also challenged this Apple myth and taken it apart piece by piece.

Here's the thing. Apple is in the premium PC market. They use higher quality, more durable parts. Their computers have better reliability records than any other pre-build. Further, Apple doesn't make low-end machines. Every Apple computer currently sold has an i5 or better. You won't find any i3s or AMD CPUs in their lineup. Further, their iMac all-in-ones are all quad core. Apple's limited options mean you pay more for a PC, but on the whole you get what you pay for. Video cards are about the only place Apple really falls down on price any more.

If you try to configure a computer that is an exact match to what you get from Apple from other pre-built vendors you often end up with something that costs more. Now, you can shave off a lot of money when buying from someone other than Apple by shaving off ports (like Firewire or Thunderbolt) or sacrificing form factor (mini or iMac vs desktop tower), but in that case you aren't comparing apples to apples any longer, if you'll pardon the pun. At that point you're comparing apples to oranges. Exact feature and form comparisons reveal Apple to actually often sell for less.

If you wonder why you can't get a Mac that does what you want at the price you want, it's because Apple doesn't make a Mac for you. Apple isn't in the budget market, and they're not in the 100 variations on the same PC with only minor tweaks and wildly varied prices market. Apple makes only a narrow selection of form factors with only a few iterations on specs. It saves them lots of money when sourcing parts and allows them to purchase higher-quality parts, which allows them to make better profit margins than their competitors and produce more reliable hardware while selling for the same or less (for models that are closest possible approximations).

You'll notice that there is still no Windows competition to the MacBook Air that can match it on speed and price. I doubt there are any small form factor i5 PCs that can match the Mac Mini on features and price. I seriously doubt that there are any all-in-ones on the market that can compete with the iMac in any department, given than the smallest iMac is 21.5" and has a quad core i5. Apple's current Mac Pro tower is their weak link because the line hasn't had a meaningful refresh in over 3 years, but the Mac Pro is probably Apple's worst seller and is pretty much only used to keep the professionals on-board with them.

A mod is welcome to move this latest swath of posts to the Fighting Street forum, but I just can't brook urban myths about Apple's costing more for the same thing.

[Arkhan Asylum]

lol.  Macs.  Ohdamn.

I bought a Macbook Pro right when the Intel ones came out, and within 8 months, the battery died, the AC adapter broke, The SUPER DVD AWESOEM drive stopped reading anything except brand new DVDs, and the casing around the laptop started to crack.   Their bullshit protection plan didn't do much for me except cost 350$.   Higher quality my ass.  That thing was a pile of shit.  The nicest thing about the whole entire laptop was the smell of the thing when I opened it.

The HP Laptop I replaced it with is like 5+ years old now, and works like the day I bought it.   I even spilled Dr. Pepper on it, and it is functioning fine.

The Macbook Pro's final fate was a can of Pepsi destroying it.   It would have cost me only 800$ to fix it!    I sold it broken on eBay for 700$, used 500$ of it to buy an HP laptop that outperformed it, and spent the other 200$ on PC Engine games.

Lets now go on an adventure to compare all of the various Apple machines I've messed with since on my own time or at school since the Macbook pro, just to see if I had a bad experience.

The MacMini is a toss up.  You can sometimes build Mini ITX or MicroATX machines into tiny cases with the same kind of specs for the same kind of prices.   The PC will always win from a configurability standpoint.  The Mac will always lose from a "shit, something broke" standpoint.   We're I to ever buy a Mac again, I'd buy these.  However, I can probably turn a front loader NES into a machine of equal or greater power for less and slap Linux on it.   Same basic effect.   So, it still doesn't do it for me.

The MacBook Air:   No.  There are cheaper thin options out there, and the end result is a machine that can do more because it's got Windows on it.


    1.8GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 processor
    Turbo Boost up to 2.8GHz
    4GB memory
    256GB flash storage1
    Intel HD Graphics 4000
^^^^^^^ 1500$+ ^^^^^^^^^

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1415590&Sku=YYI1-LE5038
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230170&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA

Asus Zenbook's offer similar (sometimes faster!) specs, for less money.   That tiger direct one is faster, and it's only big difference is half as much storage... but it comes with a 1 year accidental damage warranty.   That's more than you can say for the 1500$+ MacBook Air.   Most people I've seen with Air's use the thing to sit and fuck off on the internet in public.  So really, you could just go buy a 300$ netbook if you just want to tag yourself at starbucks on facebook.

As far as the MacBook pro, yeah, uh, you can get better PC's for less.  That's sort of a known fact.   You can pickup comparable Sony, Toshiba, Asus, or any other stuff for less.  I think MAYBE the only place you won't beat Apple, is with the Retina display... but the best one is like 2800$+, so I am not sure if that's honestly worth the extra money.

I've seen Samsung laptops that have better specs, for less, anyways.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2580856&CatId=4938 

This is arguably better and you don't have to pay 80$ for a fuckin' external disc drive.  AND , you can play games.   Holy crap!


Now, we get to the iMac:

For 2500$+, you can get an i7 w/ 16gb RAM, and a 256gb SSD, with a 21.5" screen

My gaming PC has a 6 core Phenom II at 2.8ghz each, overclocked past that to 3.1, a RAID setup, a 256GB SSD, a way better video card than Apple will ever supply with a computer, and it's on a 23" screen, and it cost me <2500$.  Even with the idiotic full tower case I got that had sweet fans in it, this machine cost me about 1900$+tax.  The Intel vs. AMD debate can blow me, since I can max out FFXIV no problem.  I've been using AMD for years and haven't been let down with the performance.  Until that happens, I'll just use them.

I can play all of the most recent games on fullblown settings and I can do all that Adobe photo/video crap that a Mac is known for.

All on a bigger screen, for less.   Plus, I can add to this thing or remove from it easily.  I just pull the door open and have at it.  Ever open a mac computer?  It's a quick way to ruin your day.

I've got a friend at work who uses Macs.  He uses them only for his photo/video work.  Other then that, he uses a PC.  He's been using Mac's ever since he started doing all that shit and went to school for it.

His basic stance is, if you aren't going to go balls deep with Adobe products, just buy a PC.  The only time you should really consider using a Mac for alot of things, is if your work or school is giving you it for nothing.

I can't do my daily computer routine on a Mac nearly as easily on a PC.   Some things I do on a PC can't even be done on a Mac without booting Windows.

FruityLoops' alternative on Mac is expensive.   Holy.Fuck. expensive.   I've used it.  I wasn't that impressed.  It'd be great if I were some rich-as-fuck studio that wiped my ass with 100$ bills, but I still think FruityLoops offers the same amount of control over music.

No games on Mac, no XNA game making on Mac, and a pain in the ass time of trying to do PCE / MSX on a mac, because all of the software is Win/Dos/Linux. 

and, CD authoring would go great with no CDRwin or Nero. 

All in all, anything I need to do on a Mac, I could do on a PC..... or Linux (for free).  There are plenty of people in this same category who do more with a computer than any Mac user I have ever personally encountered.

Anyway, Apple's pricetag on their shit has unfortunately created an army of snooty, clueless douchebags using their machines.  Often, these people do things on the computer that aren't even worth a damn.  They could be using single core, 512mb ram laptops with Windows XP, and do the same crap.  Or they could just use their phones to tag each other and check in to places with Four Square or whatever.

Apple using higher quality products is debatable.  I think it's false.   That Macbook I trashed was using Samsung parts inside.  You can get those in a PC.  The Samsung HDD that was in that laptop was put into my PS3.  My PCs I build use high quality parts anyway.  I'm not using some goony knockoff RAM or HDDs.  So, I have a higher quality machine for less, that does more.

[spenoza]

I worked helpdesk support for 6 years and have repaired hundreds of computers over the years. I can say fairly conclusively that Macs are better built than just about any other PC out there. Beyond that, there are sources like Consumer Reports that regularly do reliability ratings and always place Apple at the top. I would be pissed if I coughed up for a nice Mac laptop and it was a POS out the gate, but that sounds to me like one of those one in a million bizarro cases which is not at all indicative of an entire manufacturing line.

I'm going to address hardware only, here, because I'm not interested in getting into an OS war. I think Windows is perfectly functional. Hell, I even like Vista more than most folks appear to. At the same time, OS X is just as functional, less in some areas and far more in others (like having BSD under the hood and not having 5 different SKUs with cascading levels of functionality). Needless to say, an awful lot of *nix Junkies these days are also OS X fans. I'm not fond of a lot of Apple corporate moves (locking down iOS devices, the new Mac Store for OS X apps, shitty/no optimization of iTunes for Windows) but their software devs, by and large, know what they're doing, and OS X is a fantastic piece of OS programming, both from a user/usability standpoint and from a technical standpoint.

As for your ultrabook comparisons, they're all more expensive than Apple's offerings. The Air starts at $999. Compared to your TigerDirect link, I can build a MacBook air which is 300 mhz faster for $50 more, or with a slightly slower i5 for $100 less, with the RAM, SSD HD, and screen size all the same. That Mac Tax is starting to look non-existent. I built a 13" Air to compare to the second link and came up with something 100 mhz faster for $150 more, but it also includes the typical Air premiums like backlit keyboard and Thunderbolt, both items those Zenbooks appear to lack. Further, according to every review I've read so far, none of the Zenbooks or other wannabes come even close on battery life. The Air trounces them handily.

With your later examples you are also, again, comparing Apples to oranges. You can indeed configure something that has most of the same core specs as the Apple, but it will be missing a lot of the other bits. I don't compare the value of a Camry to the value of a Lexus, even when they have the same platform and sometimes even engine under the hood. Good design, good component selection, good fit and finish, attention to detail, and reliability are all worth money. You can configure similar laptops that are a good bit cheaper, but you can't price one that has the same quality, fit and finish, and equal or better configuration in every regard without basically landing in the same ballpark. Sure, you can build a tower desktop using larger, cheaper parts that might run as fast as an iMac for quite a bit less, but you can't price an all-in-one from Dell or HP that's got the same specs for less, and Dell and HP notoriously do not have good build quality across their models.

What you are getting at is that Apple is not interested in building a cheap PC in a plain tower case. There's almost no margin in that. Dell is barely profitable if at all on their PCs, and HP likewise. The only companies who can make margin on the bland, expandable, commodity desktop are the Chinese OEMs themselves. That's why Apple stays in the premium market, for the most part. Apple's not interested in selling you a cheap DIY gaming rig, and that's not a remotely even-keel comparison to begin with. That's like complaining that BMW doesn't make anything to compete with the Chevy Malibu.

As for part selection, Apple does indeed use parts from many standard suppliers, but suppliers like Samsung have different grades of components, and Apple generally chooses mid- to high-grade components and vets them carefully. Unlike most PC manufacturers they actually design the machines in-house, to the component level.

I Was a Mac user for several years on pre-OS X machines. I used OS X machines and Windows machines side-by-side at work for about 6 years. Given the choice, I would rather have used the Mac for most tasks. There were a few things I had to use Windows for because there weren't Mac alternatives, but those things were infrequent. I think the Mac user experience is simply a better experience.

But as I've said, I don't own a Mac right now. It's because I DO want to play games and I want to play them on a budget, and Apple doesn't cater to my current wants. If it were just a matter of needs I'd have a Mac Mini in here. It costs less than the PC I'm using now and does everything I need and more, but it doesn't do what I want for a price I can afford. This is why I drive a used Suzuki instead of a new Honda. Once my financial outlook improves I likely will end up getting a Mac Mini for my wife, so that she can use it for it's value as a music tool, one area where the Mac is still largely unrivaled.

[VestCunt]

Started typing this in the other thread - haven't read Spenoza's response yet.
----------------
Macbook Pro prices are insane.

In 2010 I bought a 14" HP with an i3, 4GB ram, 7200RPM HD, esata, SD reader, express port, hdmi out = $650.
The 15" Macbook Pro that year was basically the same except it had an i5, Firewire 800, no express port, and a 5400rpm hard drive = $2000
An i5 with hyperthreading is nice, but new CPUs are rarely maxed out, while a 5400rpm hard drive will slow down a computer every time it's powered on. The Mac's screen is an inch bigger, but firewire is slower than esata and the lack of an expressport will make the Mac obsolete that much faster *ahem..usb3...cough*.

Anyway, last year I upgraded the RAM to 8GB and, because HP makes their service manuals available to their users (Apple does not), I was able to throw in an i7 I bought on ebay for $150. So I now have an i7-8GB-7200rpm-esata-expressport HP death machine for less than half of what idiots are paying for an inferior macintosh.

More Macintosh rip off stories:
*Again, no service manuals.
*They're still using archaic, 5400rpm HDs.
*Cute video output. Want to hook it up to something? That'll be another $30 for a cute, little, proprietary adapter.
*A mouse chewed through the power cord on my sister's Mac Book. Her AC adapter was fine, but Mac power cords can't be detached from their AC adapters like other laptops. So she went to the Apple store. Cost of a new AC adapter = $80 (compare to $30 charged by gougers like Radio Shack with their commissioned salesmen). And of course she couldn't buy a generic one because Mac uses those nifty, magnetic jacks. Happy ending: I spliced the cord and fixed it for free.
*A friend of mine broke the audio jack on her Macbook Pro. She took it to the Apple store so they could fix it with their special, proprietary tool.  Their tool couldn't fix it.  They told her it would cost $1,000 to take apart their convoluted, nearly-unserviceable machine to fix the audio jack. She opted for the hassle of carrying around a USB dongle.
*A sound engineer friend of mine couldn't upgrade his $2000 G5 to the new version of Pro Tools because the he needed to install the new Mac OS which didn't support his CPU.  And, of course, he couldn't upgrade his CPU because it's a Mac.  Admittedly, this was last year and his G5 was 4-5 years old, but I'm still running Pro Tools on my $500, 2007, Dell contemporary and with no problem after maxing-out my RAM and CPU with $30 worth of parts from ebay.
*Finally, let's not forget the first generation of iPods with their irreplaceable battery that lasted 12-18 months.  Did Apple "go green" and change the design?  Not until consumers sued the pants off them.

[nectarsis]

*Finally, let's not forget the first generation of iPods with their irreplaceable battery that lasted 12-18 months.  Did Apple "go green" and change the design?  Not until consumers sued the pants off them.

I swear I just read they have the same irreplaceable, glued to case batteries in the new Air (and Ipad's)?

[spenoza]

You know what, the battery shit pisses me off. I'm OK with proprietary parts, but I'm not cool with the non-user-replaceable batteries. That's a big strike against Apple in my book. Still doesn't change the fact that Apple computers are actually priced pretty competitively with other high-end PC venders and models.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I worked helpdesk support for 6 years and have repaired hundreds of computers over the years. I can say fairly conclusively that Macs are better built than just about any other PC out there. Beyond that, there are sources like Consumer Reports that regularly do reliability ratings and always place Apple at the top. I would be pissed if I coughed up for a nice Mac laptop and it was a POS out the gate, but that sounds to me like one of those one in a million bizarro cases which is not at all indicative of an entire manufacturing line.

I dunno, my personally built PCs dwarf the quality of Mac components, and don't require jackass screwdrivers to access them.  But, it IS a bit unfair, since I probably just got a lemon.  However, two of my friends with Macbooks (we all got them at the same time), have had similar issues.   First round intel macbook pro failures, I think.

Their accessories are overpriced and retarded.  They always have been.   Even their Apple II switchbox for TVs.  It looks all fancy and crap but it's just a 3$ drugstore antenna switch.  Waste of $.

I'm going to address hardware only, here, because I'm not interested in getting into an OS war. I think Windows is perfectly functional. Hell, I even like Vista more than most folks appear to. At the same time, OS X is just as functional, less in some areas and far more in others (like having BSD under the hood and not having 5 different SKUs with cascading levels of functionality). Needless to say, an awful lot of *nix Junkies these days are also OS X fans. I'm not fond of a lot of Apple corporate moves (locking down iOS devices, the new Mac Store for OS X apps, shitty/no optimization of iTunes for Windows) but their software devs, by and large, know what they're doing, and OS X is a fantastic piece of OS programming, both from a user/usability standpoint and from a technical standpoint.

OSX *is* a nice operating system.  But, for what I would do on OSX, I could do for free on any other *nix platform, on a PC I built myself.    Apple's OS is crippled by all the other dumb shit Apple does.

As for your ultrabook comparisons, they're all more expensive than Apple's offerings. The Air starts at $999. Compared to your TigerDirect link, I can build a MacBook air which is 300 mhz faster for $50 more, or with a slightly slower i5 for $100 less, with the RAM, SSD HD, and screen size all the same. That Mac Tax is starting to look non-existent. I built a 13" Air to compare to the second link and came up with something 100 mhz faster for $150 more, but it also includes the typical Air premiums like backlit keyboard and Thunderbolt, both items those Zenbooks appear to lack. Further, according to every review I've read so far, none of the Zenbooks or other wannabes come even close on battery life. The Air trounces them handily.

My mistake, I thought I linked a 13 inch Zenbook.   Going by the 11 inch pricing for Air's, to get an i7, it costs like 150$, which quickly shoots the price up to the Zenbook price range (The air is 70$ less).  Factor in the 1 year warranty that comes with the Zenbook, and the Macbook air loses. 

Apple's AppleCare plan is garbage.   

Not to mention, I've held/used both an Air and a Zenbook.   The Zenbook looks and feels alot nicer.

The NewEgg one I linked beats out the default 13" macbook air, no problem.

With your later examples you are also, again, comparing Apples to oranges. You can indeed configure something that has most of the same core specs as the Apple, but it will be missing a lot of the other bits. I don't compare the value of a Camry to the value of a Lexus, even when they have the same platform and sometimes even engine under the hood. Good design, good component selection, good fit and finish, attention to detail, and reliability are all worth money. You can configure similar laptops that are a good bit cheaper, but you can't price one that has the same quality, fit and finish, and equal or better configuration in every regard without basically landing in the same ballpark. Sure, you can build a tower desktop using larger, cheaper parts that might run as fast as an iMac for quite a bit less, but you can't price an all-in-one from Dell or HP that's got the same specs for less, and Dell and HP notoriously do not have good build quality across their models.

Given that the Macbook plastic casings break extremely easily, and the keyboard design is garbage, I am not sure where you are getting the idea that the Mac stuff is simply better.  The way the plastic ones fit together is completely idiotic.  Normal uses stresses the case and causes it to crack.

At least most PC laptops, when they get spilled on, have a keyboard assembly that allows the liquid to hit a plate before the board.  Didn't go so well with my Macbook.

Sony, Toshiba and Asus laptops are all pretty well designed.   You want sturdy and reliable?  Get a Toughbook.

There are plenty of PC options that are equally solid.  You just have to look somewhere besides Bestbuy and Walmart.

My PC I built myself uses better parts than a Mac, and, it's faster.

What you are getting at is that Apple is not interested in building a cheap PC in a plain tower case. There's almost no margin in that. Dell is barely profitable if at all on their PCs, and HP likewise. The only companies who can make margin on the bland, expandable, commodity desktop are the Chinese OEMs themselves. That's why Apple stays in the premium market, for the most part. Apple's not interested in selling you a cheap DIY gaming rig, and that's not a remotely even-keel comparison to begin with. That's like complaining that BMW doesn't make anything to compete with the Chevy Malibu.

My DIY gaming rig was cheap money wise.  Quality wise, It's top notch.  The case it's in?  Yeah, it looks cool as fuck.  There's blue lights and fans, and sweet metal mesh-stuff.   It came in a box with a dragon on it.  I'll take that over a gay Apple on the side of it.

Apple doesn't cater to the average consumer.  They never have.   Ever.

They cater to uppity fucks with expendable money and no clue what they are buying because Steve Jobs created this Andy Warhol-style cult trainwreck for the company.   Your average snooty Mac user probably has the mac because it cost a lot of $$ and they bought into the stupid advertising.

The average mac user isn't a power user, and they don't do anything that really taxes ANY computer today.  They just go HURHRHRHR IT JUST WORKS.  I LIKE THIS.

Apple is genius.   They sell overpriced machines to complete buffoons who don't know any better.    Hang out at an Apple Store for a few days.  Most of the people that come in are rich pricks that don't know what they're doing.

You know how many college students I know of that bought Macbook air's to go sit at a coffee house and fuck off on Facebook?   All that $$$, just to sit on FACEBOOK, or use Photobooth.

FFS.

As for part selection, Apple does indeed use parts from many standard suppliers, but suppliers like Samsung have different grades of components, and Apple generally chooses mid- to high-grade components and vets them carefully. Unlike most PC manufacturers they actually design the machines in-house, to the component level.

Samsung hard drive from the Macbook died.  High quality, right?

Battery? Died.   Superdrive? Died.  Casing on macbook?  Died. 

Apple does their fair share of not using top of the line stuff.   Sure they don't do it as often, but they still do.

Who cares if they design the computer "in house"?   That argument doesn't hold the same value it held in the 80s.  Apple's computers today are basically just the same IBM compatibles I can build myself, slapped into an Apple case, with apple software.

I Was a Mac user for several years on pre-OS X machines. I used OS X machines and Windows machines side-by-side at work for about 6 years. Given the choice, I would rather have used the Mac for most tasks. There were a few things I had to use Windows for because there weren't Mac alternatives, but those things were infrequent. I think the Mac user experience is simply a better experience.

*shrug*   I prefer Windows.  No point arguing OS preferences.

Once my financial outlook improves I
likely will end up getting a Mac Mini for my wife, so that she can use it for it's value as a music tool, one area where the Mac is still largely unrivaled.

With what, garage band?  That software is trash.   Hope you like shelling out big $$$ for the good software. 

Meanwhile, I'll be using my <100$ FruityLoops install.  Try showing that to your wife and see if she really wants something more expensive.



Long story short:  If you know what you're doing, you can get PCs that blow Mac's away both in the laptop world, and the desktop world.

Find the good laptops, build the good PCs.

The end.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Preface : I'd at least look at Macs if I were in the market for a new computer and didn't have to run Windows only software.  I haven't drunk the kool-aid that says Macs are cheap because of perceived aesthetic value or that they use better parts (they're using the exact same cpus, mb chipsets, gpus, ram, hdds/ssds, and flat panels as everyone else - the only things they design are the case and board layouts), nor have I drank from the kool-aid that says Macs are vastly overpriced.  The difference is often small (10-20%), but you'll almost always pay a premium for a Mac (even the dual cpu Pros aren't cheaper nowadays).  And screw the retard argument that you can build a PC for cheap yourself; of course you can, just as you can build a cheaper hackintosh, or build a cheaper house, or sew cheaper clothes, etc.

Now, you can shave off a lot of money when buying from someone other than Apple by shaving off ports (like Firewire or Thunderbolt)

Those ports only matter if you need them, and the same argument applies to Macs anyway (no eSATA or USB 3.0).

or sacrificing form factor (mini or iMac vs desktop tower)

That's a bogus argument that has everything to do with aesthetics and nothing to do with performance.  They're just different - not necessarily better; you might as well say it's not a fair comparison because the PC isn't white and lacks a pretty, glowing apple.

You'll notice that there is still no Windows competition to the MacBook Air that can match it on speed and price.

The zenbook is probably the only real competitor to the 11" version, but there's plenty of ultrabooks that can compete with the 13" version.  Here's one from HP:

Envy Spectre XT Ultrabook 13t  -  $999 i5-3317U = 1.7/2.6ghz ivy bridge* HD Graphics 4000 4GB DDR3 1600mhz RAM 128GB SSD

MacBook Air  -  $1199 i5-2557M = 1.8/2.8ghz ivy bridge HD Graphics 4000 4GB DDR3 1600mhz RAM 128GB SSD

* - add +$125 for i7-3517U (1.9/3ghz and a larger cache) to handily outpace the Air

I doubt there are any small form factor i5 PCs that can match the Mac Mini on features and price.

That's probably true, seeing as it's a form factor that few care about (too many compromises); you could get something from Shuttle, maybe, but it'd either be cheaper and less powerful or pricier and better equipped.  If one doesn't get hung up on aesthetics, a similarly equipped smallish (though not as small as a Mini) PC can be had for less:

Dell Inspirion 660s  -  $499 i3-2120 = 3.3ghz sandy bridge* HD Graphics 2000 6GB DDR3 1600mhz RAM 1TB 7200rpm HDD

Mac Mini  -  $599 i5-2415M = 2.3/2.9ghz sandy bridge* HD Graphics 3000 2GB DDR3 1333mhz RAM 500GB 5400rpm HDD

* - Don't let the 3 and 5 fool you; these two CPUs are very close in specs.  They both have two cores, hyper-threading, and 3mb L3 caches - the main difference is that the i3 runs at a consistent 3.3ghz and the i5 runs between 2.3ghz and 2.9ghz (less powerful but less hungry).

I seriously doubt that there are any all-in-ones on the market that can compete with the iMac in any department, given than the smallest iMac is 21.5" and has a quad core i5.

For $350 more with the Apple, you get a better video card but less memory, a smaller screen, and a smaller hard drive:

Dell XPS One 23  -  $850 i5-2400s = 2.5ghz sandy bridge HD Graphics 2000 6GB DDR3 1600mhz RAM 1TB 7200rpm HDD

21.5" iMac  -  $1199 i5-2400s = 2.5ghz sandy bridge HD Graphics 2000 Radeon HD 6750M 4GB DDR3 1333mhz RAM 500GB 7200rpm HDD

It's a similar story for the larger iMac, where an extra $300 again buys you a better video card but a lesser cpu and less memory:

Dell XPS One 27  -  $1400 i5-3450 = 3.1ghz ivy bridge (a generation newer) HD Graphics 2500 6GB DDR3 1600mhz RAM 1TB 7200rpm HDD

27" iMac  -  $1699 i5-2500s = 2.7ghz sandy bridge HD Graphics 2000 Radeon HD 6770M 4GB DDR3 1333mhz RAM 1TB 7200rpm HDD

[Keranu]

I've never paid more than $400~ for a PC.

[Tatsujin]

lol, my past three PCs were all free of charge. got them from the work and used em until they die(d). I'm also still very ok and comfortable with XP. regarding mac? never.

[Arkhan Asylum]

The difference is often small (10-20%), but you'll almost always pay a premium for a Mac (even the dual cpu Pros aren't cheaper nowadays).

It's a small %, but a pretty big dollar amount.  If you save 150$, you can go buy a bunch of other useful crap for your computer.. or go buy other things entirely.

One of the worst part about Macs is all the fucking accessories are overpriced.  Those little miniDVI to DVI adapters suck. 

Yeah, you could buy a knock off one, but hey, if you're buying a Mac, you're probably all into the aesthetics of the thing... so you'll end up wanting all the matching bullshit.

And screw the retard argument that you can build a PC for cheap yourself; of course you can, just as you can build a cheaper hackintosh, or build a cheaper house, or sew cheaper clothes, etc.

The difference with building your own PC is that it is always way more customizable.

I use the build-it-yourself argument for buying PCs too usually.  I like being able to pick everything, down to the motherboard, and the fancy fans and shit.

What cracks me up is nowadays you can find Apple-like cases for pennies!

Build one in that fucker, go get yourself an overpriced Mighty Mouse and Keyboard, and pretend you have a real Mac! wooooo!

Use FreeBSD w/ a OSX theme even!  Fight the power!

[VestCunt]

The average mac user isn't a power user, and they don't do anything that really taxes ANY computer today.  They just go HURHRHRHR IT JUST WORKS.  I LIKE THIS.

Yeah, most Macbook Pros might as well be fifteen-hundred-dollar netbooks.

Apple is genius.   They sell overpriced machines to complete buffoons who don't know any better.    Hang out at an Apple Store for a few days.  Most of the people that come in are rich pricks that don't know what they're doing.

Wait a minute, are you suggesting that Mac users aren't attracted by the processing power and technical specifications?!?  Then why would they buy a Mac?

[geise]

This is all why I just used my Atari 1040 ST.

EDIT:  This stupid ass remark was in regards to the use of midi.

[spenoza]

Arkhan, some of the best and smartest people I know use Macs with OS X. Some of the best and smartest people I know use some variant of Windows on a wide variety of computer hardware. Your suggestion that the people who buy Macs are somehow not making intelligent decisions based on their own needs and wants or are simply fools is insulting in the extreme. Maybe you need to step down off your high horse for a bit and engage in a little introspection.

I'm done with this discussion. It's not worth my time. The tenor and content of the responses has pretty much told me everything I need to know, and I'm quite a bit disappointed.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

The tenor and content of the responses has pretty much told me everything I need to know, and I'm quite a bit disappointed.

What else would you expect from Fighting Street?

[VestCunt]

I'm done with this discussion. It's not worth my time. The tenor and content of the responses has pretty much told me everything I need to know, and I'm quite a bit disappointed.

My first post made some valid points about Apple's price gouging without attacking the user base too much.

I've never understood why some people get bent out of shape by Arkhan's comments. He's so irreverent, flippant, and jokey, it's almost impossible to take him seriously even when I disagree with him. Also, as far as I can tell, he doesn't seem to get angry or take things personally unless you, like, ban him or resell his game; so it's safe to argue with him all day and tomorrow it's water under the bridge.

Anyway, relax. Do Arkhan's comments accurately reflect every Mac user? Of course not, but they do nail all of the stereotypes rightfully on the head and it's pretty funny. If you disagree, try going into any coffee shop near a college campus.

There are plenty of occasions where owning a Mac makes sense. I can't count the number of times I've helped some middle-aged presenter hook their Windows Vista laptop up to a projector, watched the screen fill with update offers and bloatware, and said to myself, "damn, this guy needs to buy a Mac." I also know a lot of sound engineers who simply don't have the time or motivation to become a computer expert. For them, it's worth spending an extra $1,000 on a Mac because they need a reliable system. They can't risk e-sata compatibility issues in the middle of a session or slow their machine down by running a bunch of antivirus crap to keep it safe. That said, there are far too many Mac users throwing their money away on a fashion accessory.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Arkhan, some of the best and smartest people I know use Macs with OS X.

Thats cool.  Same here. 

Your suggestion that the people who buy Macs are somehow not making intelligent decisions based on their own needs and wants or are simply fools is insulting in the extreme. Maybe you need to step down off your high horse for a bit and engage in a little introspection.

Or, ...maybe you need to reread what I said?   I said the AVERAGE Mac User.  I didn't say anything about your above average friends, or mine.  Or any above average people we don't know about.  Like John Romero.  His new studio is all Mac powered. 

I'm talking about the average.

The average person is a fucking retard.  So, the average mac user is also a fucking retard.

Just like the average PC user, probably a retard.

The difference is, for some reason, the average mac user (read: fucking retard), sits and parrots those idiotic advertising slogans and campaigns.   Apple has this tendency to dupe people with their hipster wow factor.   It makes average people get suckered into dropping tons of $$ on something they don't need.   Do you think Coffee McTeaparty needs a 2000$ Macbook air to sit at Starbucks and like everyones comments on facebook?

Or does that 30 year old lady who's blowing all her husband's money need the top tier MacBook pro to sit and play Bejeweled?  Fuck no.

Do you know how many moronic college kids I had to sit with while at school that just sat and went HAH MY MAC JUST WORKS?  You should buy a Mac!  With a Mac you can do *insert something stupid that you can do on a PC*?!

I had someone bragging that they had the like 2800$ macbook pro dualbooting OSX and Ubuntu.  He went on to talk about how great Ubuntu is, and that it's so great that he never even goes on OSX anymore.


Yeah.

That's the kind of idiot Mac users I encountered on a daily basis for the entire duration of my college education.  I never once encountered a Mac user in the computer science department that wasn't some dipshit parroting nonsense, and telling me my computer wasn't any good because it wasn't a Mac.  I got the last laugh when PowerPC McFuckface couldn't do any of the x86 assembly assignments.

That's a lot of the reason I can't stand Apple.  Steve Jobs and his moronic "I'm changing the world with my bullshit" mannerisms were easily some of the most irritating things to sit and watch.  It's like they aren't selling you a computer.  They're selling you a lifestyle, or something idiotic. 

[RegalSin]

Apple's OS is crippled by all the other dumb shit Apple does.

Apples greatest invention was the amount of space it save artists compared to the Amiga. Then they turn the other cheeck. Then Apple had the CS2 combo, Tiger, and
all was perfect. After that Apple just became another Intel piece of shit............................ Great they can work, and work good but they are
still piece of OS emulating pieces of shit.

It is just like tron2, everything was beautiful in DOS, and then came along Apple, and they just fubared everything. I can't believe Gates outlived Jobs. Then Windows, itself can't even work like original windows, and none of my ( legacy ( retarded word for 9X devices )) even picks up on the newer windows. I have a flash reader from 199X that I use with my camera, and the driver wont install, but on an XP machine they install.

>................


About midi? Most midi mucisians, a probably using, Atari, DOS, and 9x interfaces. They even use floppies, and disks still. All they need is the music interface, and the ability to write music. Even the MSX can do midi/PCE etc, and all is right.

Apple is not a midi monster, it is a Unix beast. That is the only good thing with Apple
and midi, is Unix/Linux. In fact their are tons of Linux releases dedicated for music lovers.

When did Apple get stupid? When they installed a temperature device that forced the computer to freeze. Then they even installed a sub-computer to moderate the computer, that a person without the right tools is unable to access, so everytime I start my Apple G5 the damn thing freezes because of some sorta of low-level settings.

[Gogan]

I've had the same MacBook pro for 6 years. I've replaced the battery once ($30) and had charger replaced (free). Thing has been rock solid for me, and I use photoshop/illustrator/after effects (heavily and at same time usually) and pro tools HD. I guess I got some lemonade.

Only wish I could upgrade to more ram, but have maxed it out (only 2gb ) sign o the times

[RegalSin]

That is why the Macs ( Unix/Linux/Next ) was so auwsome. You could have a small amount of memory and the program was most likely dependent of the Hard Drive space itself. Then you could work with huge files that spanned hundreds of Gigs and thing kept on chuging along.

PC, at some point you know the memory is going to cap, and the Hard drive is going to cap, with it. The moment that happens you might not even be able to save your work.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I've had the same MacBook pro for 6 years. I've replaced the battery once ($30) and had charger replaced (free). Thing has been rock solid for me, and I use photoshop/illustrator/after effects (heavily and at same time usually) and pro tools HD. I guess I got some lemonade.

Only wish I could upgrade to more ram, but have maxed it out (only 2gb ) sign o the times

yeah, you got a pro, so the case doesn't crumble like a little bitch.   The standard one can't survive actual transportation for more than a year.   I took it to school every day for 8 months and it died on me.

They wouldn't replace my battery or my charger even though I had that bullshit applecare plan.   Fuckers.

[VestCunt]

They wouldn't replace my battery or my charger even though I had that bullshit applecare plan.   Fuckers.

That sucks. I was hoping to buy an Apple and start one of those bullshit bands that use a Macbook Pro on stage so I could smash the computer at every show and get it replaced with Applecare... guess it doesn't work like that.

[VestCunt]

One good use for an Apple product.

[Sparky]

One good use for an Apple product.

i could cry ...

Been using a Mac since my college days (over 20 years) and ya there fucking expensive, always have been and always will, in a lot of cases what you grow up with using you seem to stick with, as a graphic designer it is all i ever use and what the industry used largely back in the day so ya its my preference but the PC can handle the work just as good as the mac.

Mac was struggling back in the day so for me it was good to see when all the "i" devices started to come out as mac finally started to get into homes other than the graphic designers or mac fans boys. I do think the PC guys started bashing mac even more when they started to hit main stream and of coarse with the start of the  "EPIC " mac commercials.

BUT to keep this in fighting street status and my favourite line over the years to PC guys...... you fucking PC guys can have your Windows 98... Mac had it back in '85.

[geise]

I love the whole "I'm a graphic designer I use a mac"  Never understood that.  Yeah Adobe was first on mac, but same shit can be done on another pc now a days.  Been that way for the past 15 years.  Why do mac users still think it's the end all be all machine for doing graphics.  BTW I do the same thing for a living.  Also, my first PC after having an amiga and ST was the first Mac powerpc.  Couldn't do much with it cause it was a Mac.  Oh I did mess with KPT Bryce haha, and surf the web with icab.

[Sparky]

Hahahaha... I said that PC's can do the same thing silly, you must have read graphic designer and got all fired up .

[Gogan]

I love the whole "I'm a graphic designer I use a mac"  Never understood that.  Yeah Adobe was first on mac, but same shit can be done on another pc now a days.  Been that way for the past 15 years.  Why do mac users still think it's the end all be all machine for doing graphics.  BTW I do the same thing for a living.  Also, my first PC after having an amiga and ST was the first Mac powerpc.  Couldn't do much with it cause it was a Mac.  Oh I did mess with KPT Bryce haha, and surf the web with icab.

As a graphic designer, I can say after effects is a LOT better on a windows setup. Same with any 3d modeling program (Maya/max/cinema4d). That's what the pros do, not the hipster douchebags you are referring to.

I, myself, prefer the interface of a mac over anything else. I'm not big on computer capabilities, most run what i need pretty efficiently.

[geise]

Hahahaha... I said that PC's can do the same thing silly, you must have read graphic designer and got all fired up .

Yeah, my post was being pointed out to "most graphic designers in general"  Two of my co-workers are like that.  Everything is mac based.  It has to be a mac.  It's just better.  I ask why, and they say it just is.  I laugh and go back to work.  We use windows at work since we do 3D and 2d stuff.  There is cinema 4d and maya now for mac, but we also use 3dsmax, so we just use windows since it can do it all.  Man Gogan I remember going from a Mac to windows NT since i was doing computer animation for a living.  It was so weird going from a mac to a windows environment.  I was like "wtf is this right click shit!"

[Gogan]

I hate when people say things are better because "it just is. Look at it!" ..not that I could defend either one in any significant way, id certainly never say dumb shit like that

[Arkhan Asylum]

that seems to be the thing.

Mac users often do the whole "HARHARUHH YOURE NOT ON A MAC, YOURE NOT COMPUTING PROPERLY.  MAC IS SO NICE HUERDRDHADURFUCK"

I have *never* seen a PC user do the same thing:

"HURHURHR YOURE ON A MAC YOURE A MORON, WHY DONT YOU BUY A REAL COMPUTER.  THIS ONE JUST WORKS. ETC."

[Joe Redifer]

I think PC users have stronger emotions towards the Mac and its users than Mac users do towards the PC and its users.  At least on internet forums.

I'm a Mac user but if I had a Mac laptop I'd cover up that Apple logo right away as the last thing I want to do is advertise what platform I'm using like some asshole.  The damn thing lights up and wastes power!

[HercTNT]

Jobs was an asshole but he wasn't stupid. When you can get millions of people to drink heavily from the kool-aid and buy over priced shit, your doing something right. Apple has made huge gains against microsoft in the last 10 years. It won't matter though, google will rule the world soon anyways 

[Arkhan Asylum]

I think PC users have stronger emotions towards the Mac and its users than Mac users do towards the PC and its users.  At least on internet forums.

It's an interesting point.  Macfags only macfag-it-up in the real world.  They never really do it online. 

I'm a Mac user but if I had a Mac laptop I'd cover up that Apple logo right away as the last thing I want to do is advertise what platform I'm using like some asshole.  The damn thing lights up and wastes power!

I thought it just piggybacked off the backlighting for the screen

[Joe Redifer]

Maybe it does but I swear I've seen it pulsate.  Never really used the laptops too much as I don't really care for the design.

[spenoza]

They wouldn't replace my battery or my charger even though I had that bullshit applecare plan.   Fuckers.

I know of no extended warranties of any kind that cover batteries beyond the first year. Batteries are considered consumables. Ran into that all the time with Dell CompleteCare warranties.

[Arkhan Asylum]

They wouldn't replace my battery or my charger even though I had that bullshit applecare plan.   Fuckers.

I know of no extended warranties of any kind that cover batteries beyond the first year. Batteries are considered consumables. Ran into that all the time with Dell CompleteCare warranties.

Considering it died before a year, I call horse shit.