Just played Lords Of Thunder for the Sega CD ...

[EvilEvoIX]

The neo geo could indeed do Mario kart.  It's a sprite monster it would just "brute force" the floor as it were.

[Tatsujin]

so why did they then riding hero instead?

[Joe Redifer]

No, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.

The only reason you even know the FX is there is because you read it somewhere

It was widely advertised. SNES fanbois (your spelling) always mention it. They are very proud that the system needs to cheat to make a game like that. It's like saying "My Dodge Durango can go over 500 mph... if it were strapped to a rocket". Sure, the Dodge IS going that fast, but it's not right to give the credit to the Durango at all. Give the credit to the rocket. Remember, it takes the SNES almost two weeks to add 2+2. This has been proven by scientific experiments on the moon.

nobody is going to program top shelf games for these systems again. All the great stuff that will ever be made for the 16-bit stuff has already been made and that's what defines the system

Nobody? Watermelon is doing some pretty damn top shelf stuff on the Genesis. They're still making games. Hell, they're even working on a SNES game. Check your sources before you say something like that.

[SamIAm]

However big a fault it is that they used such a slow CPU in the SNES, it's graphics and sound functions are so much more versatile than the others that SNES games which used them well are practically un-portable.

Perhaps the best example that didn't use any enhancement chip is Super Metroid. No chip in a cart is going to make the Genesis able to run that game in a way that wouldn't be really embarrassing in a side-by-side comparison. Same with Donkey Kong Country (2 especially).

For that matter, you could take out the SFX chip from Yoshi's Island, and it would look, sound, and play mostly the same - identical in many areas. But while ports on the Genesis and TG-16 would have the core gameplay mostly intact, they would look and sound terrible. To make it run on beautifully on the Genesis, you would pretty much need a "Super Nintendo chip" inside the cartridge. It's not impossible, but it's well outside the scope of what people were doing with enhancement chips in those days.

CPU power is the one advantage that the other two systems have over the SNES, but that advantage is easily negated by a cheap co-processor. Not so for the SNES's functions. Part of what's so cool about Yoshi's Island is that whoever owned a stock SNES could buy the game (at a negligably increased price) and run it on their system. No three-digit add-ons necessary.

[Joe Redifer]

But while ports on the Genesis and TG-16 would have the core gameplay mostly intact, they would look and sound terrible.

Why would they sound terrible? It's not like Yoshi's Island sounds great to begin with. There's nothing special about how that particular game sounds. I can't even remember the music and I've played it recently. Sound different, yes. Look different? Definitely. Look and sound terrible? Hard to say. If they did the CGI graphics in Donkey Kong Country yeah it would look pretty bad. But I have never been a fan of those style of graphics so I think they look horrible even on the SNES. Give me 2D non-digitized sprites with just as much animation and it'll look way awesome on any system.  What the Genesis and Turbo can't do is F-Zero, one of my favorite SNES games. It's so much a SNES game that it feels wrong to play the GBA versions (they screwed 'em up anyway).

[EvilEvoIX]

No, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.

I think you misunderstand what the Neo Geo can and cannot do.  The biggest issue would be the floor which would be sprites, large animated sprites, that can be manipulated.  We went over this in depth on sega-16.  The system
Can move a lot of stuff and fast.  Also if we are going to allow helper chips SMK had a chip to help with the rotation.

[esteban]

FINAL CONSENSUS: I am glad we all reached a final, conclusive verdict on this debate. Namely... Genesis sucks. SNES, TG-16 and XaviX are superior in all aspects.

THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING!

[EvilEvoIX]

FINAL CONSENSUS: I am glad we all reached a final, conclusive verdict on this debate. Namely... Genesis sucks. SNES, TG-16 and XaviX are superior in all aspects.

THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING!

Well how the fuck am I supposed to argue with this?

[Tatsujin]

Well how the fuck am I supposed to argue with this?

You shouldn't.

[CrackTiger]

No, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.

I think you misunderstand what the Neo Geo can and cannot do.  The biggest issue would be the floor which would be sprites, large animated sprites, that can be manipulated.  We went over this in depth on sega-16.  The system
Can move a lot of stuff and fast.  Also if we are going to allow helper chips SMK had a chip to help with the rotation.

You're talking about a fmv game now.

If you at least remember the Neo Geo tech talk from sega-16 (given that none of the PCE stuff stuck), then you know that the Neo Geo can't even do the same level of parallax as SNES and Genesis, because it's stuck using huge columns of sprites for everything and, because of the deisgn, it can't render any kind of realtime effects through CPU horsepower. The Neo Geo is the best there is at doing Neo Geo style game, but it can't do anything else.

[EvilEvoIX]

No, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.

I think you misunderstand what the Neo Geo can and cannot do.  The biggest issue would be the floor which would be sprites, large animated sprites, that can be manipulated.  We went over this in depth on sega-16.  The system
Can move a lot of stuff and fast.  Also if we are going to allow helper chips SMK had a chip to help with the rotation.

You're talking about a fmv game now.

If you at least remember the Neo Geo tech talk from sega-16 (given that none of the PCE stuff stuck), then you know that the Neo Geo can't even do the same level of parallax as SNES and Genesis, because it's stuck using huge columns of sprites for everything and, because of the deisgn, it can't render any kind of realtime effects through CPU horsepower. The Neo Geo is the best there is at doing Neo Geo style game, but it can't do anything else.

Again you misunderstand the Neo Geo's capabites.  It can't do parallax because it doesn't have back grounds nor does it need too.  All it does is make massive animated sprites and does so extremely well.  That alone forms a moving animated background and That alone can make almost anything needed such as shrinking and growing a sprite without pixelating it like the SNES does.  Any rotation needed would simply be animated.  Not like a fmv but a real time moving encironment at lightning speed.  It has the brute force to do so.  Riding hero is a launch turd but a more capable programmer with near a gig of cart space can do as he pleases with 2d sprites.  He'll even a bare sega genesis can do it to a lesser extent just based off its CPU speed.

[Joe Redifer]

I think it is YOU who is misunderstanding the Neo Geo or at least its developers. A bunch of sprites for the floor would look nothing like a true Mode 7™ graphic. Animated rotation would be awful. Recall that Mode 7™ moves at 60fps. How many Neo Geo games have distinct 60fps animation? Likely none ever. But these tiles would need to have a lot of animation at 60fps. What if the player turns slowly? Even that slow turn will need to be animated at 60fps so there'd need to be hundreds and hundreds of frames for each tile and some asshole needs to animate that. Every single part of the track will need this animation. That'd be more animation than any game has ever had. Then they'd have to program it to it doesn't look all jumbly/segmented. Good luck because Neo Geo scaling often looks segmented. Oh, and it can get blocky just like the SNES. That's a developer decision to up or downscale. The Genesis can do Mario Kart like this as well.

[EvilEvoIX]

A true mode 7 requires additional hardware.  Just because things can get blocky doesn't mean it will.  More often then not that particular sprite will be huge and then shrunk down.  Again the neo is more then capable enough to create a series if animated sprite tires to mimic what ever you need in 2D.  The system still hasn't been maxed out yet.  It's main weakness is the arcade only setup.  It is more limited than the SNES controller especially the shoulder buttons.  The only way to power slide (which defines the kart series entirely) would be some series button mashing.  It would be ugly for sure.

[CrackTiger]

Again you misunderstand the Neo Geo's capabites.  It can't do parallax because it doesn't have back grounds nor does it need too.  All it does is make massive animated sprites and does so extremely well.  That alone forms a moving animated background and That alone can make almost anything needed such as shrinking and growing a sprite without pixelating it like the SNES does.  Any rotation needed would simply be animated.  Not like a fmv but a real time moving encironment at lightning speed.  It has the brute force to do so.  Riding hero is a launch turd but a more capable programmer with near a gig of cart space can do as he pleases with 2d sprites.  He'll even a bare sega genesis can do it to a lesser extent just based off its CPU speed.

I was talking about the kind of layered background scrolling that the Neo Geo can do. All of this was covered in the sega-16 discussion you referenced. The Neo Geo can only render a limited number of sprites at once and it can only do 16 pixel wide sprites (but they can be as tall as 512 pixels). Doing the types of games that the Neo Geo does quickly approaches its sprite bandwidth limits. The system was more or less maxed out bitd. Also, because of the unique hardware design, it can't use any of its "brute force" to render anything original on the fly the way that regular consoles and computers do, no matter how simple or complex. So no rotation, no Doom/Face Ball style graphics, no polygons, no wire frame. It literally can only do the kind of 2D games that its library consists of. The Genesis is the only 16-bit generation console to have much success rendering on the fly using shear brute force.

It also cannot "grow" sprites at all. The SNES can only scale up a single tile layer, so it starts perfect and then the pixels get bigger, but remains relatively proportionate. The Neo Geo can only scale down or "shrink" sprites. So it only looks perfect at the largest size, but distorts as soon as it begins shrinking, as detail is rapidly lost (unlike how the SNES simply enlarges the detail).

Neo Geo style down-scaling <---- ORIGINAL -----> SNES style up-scaling



Both the shrunken and grown images are shown at uneven integers, so you can see what the distortion looks like when it isn't blown up to 200%, 400%, etc. The Neo Geo style shrinking rapidly ruins the image, so it's no good for the kind of sprite scaling games you are suggesting. It would have to just use all animation, essentially fmv for the backgrounds, like Fast Striker does.

Here is that shrunken sprite evenly scaled back up 400% and the up-scaled sprite doubled to show the difference in distortion-



Riding hero is only doing the kind of racing background that 8-bit consoles do. It just shrinks sprites to save on space. Otherwise it's no different than Hang On for SMS. Only the SNES and later consoles can do the kind of Mode 7 that F-Zero does. Mode 7 created an entire new genre of racing gameplay. The old kind is still fun, but Mode 7 was something different and potentially deeper, just as fully 3D games are beyond Mode 7.

The Neo Geo isn't a super powerful console, it's just good at doing the one type of graphics that it can do. Compared to the Saturn and Playstation, the Neo Geo is overall on par with the PC Engine, Genesis and SNES.

[EvilEvoIX]

I was talking about the kind of layered background scrolling that the Neo Geo can do. All of this was covered in the sega-16 discussion you referenced.

Yes, indeed it was, here is a nice quote from a a member with an understanding of programming between these consoles and what they can and cannot do.

Yeah, Neo Geo had some impressive specs compared to the home systems. But then again, it's an arcade system.

 No BG layer, but it was a fixed overlay window. Sprites are chained to make huge single sprites (done in hardware rather than software). The whole change of sprites are scaled both X and Y. Well, scalable via shrinking. And impressive pixel bandwidth for such type of an object system (it's all raster, no blitter like the Sega arcade systems). 1536 sprite pixels per scanline. That's easily up to 3 *real* BG layers and a shit load of sprites still. A scanline interrupt can change the position of the first sprite of any chained step, giving warping effects on a sprite level (which no other 16bit home system can do, they can only do per background type effects). It has 256 16color palettes (4096 colors per screen), but it also has an alternate buffer that you can switch on any scanline. The master palette is 32k colors (but you have set a bit to get a slightly darker 32k palette for a total of 65k).

 For 3D games like Outrun or Cotton or even Galaxy Force, it would be a big step up from the SNES or Genesis. It would benefit better for the 3D chips like the SFX and SVP since you could fill and flip the result immediately, instead of the slower transfers rates of the GEN/SNES. And more colors for the frame buffer too, since layering isn't going to be a dig deal (it won't effect transfer rates and thus frame rates).

Taken right from the thread you mentioned too BTW.  I think the biggest issue is "Mode 7" meaning that is it's name like "Xerox" or any other issue where the name of a company is used as a verb to describe many other things.  Mode seven is simply, as defined by sources and Wiki "The Super NES console has eight modes, numbered from 0 to 7, for displaying background layers, the last one (background mode 7) having a single layer that can be scaled and rotated."

It only works on backgrounds.  The Neo however can work MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE, larger then the screen if needed in multiple layers AND animated.  So is it exactly a SNES MODE 7 trick?  No, however it can be done and with better results from the Neo's power.

Here is the thread in question if you care to brush up on some history.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?16416-What-are-the-real-Neo-Geo-capabilities/page5

Again you misunderstand the Neo Geo's capabites.  It can't do parallax because it doesn't have back grounds nor does it need too.  All it does is make massive animated sprites and does so extremely well.  That alone forms a moving animated background and That alone can make almost anything needed such as shrinking and growing a sprite without pixelating it like the SNES does.  Any rotation needed would simply be animated.  Not like a fmv but a real time moving encironment at lightning speed.  It has the brute force to do so.  Riding hero is a launch turd but a more capable programmer with near a gig of cart space can do as he pleases with 2d sprites.  He'll even a bare sega genesis can do it to a lesser extent just based off its CPU speed.

I was talking about the kind of layered background scrolling that the Neo Geo can do. All of this was covered in the sega-16 discussion you referenced. The Neo Geo can only render a limited number of sprites at once and it can only do 16 pixel wide sprites (but they can be as tall as 512 pixels). Doing the types of games that the Neo Geo does quickly approaches its sprite bandwidth limits. The system was more or less maxed out bitd. Also, because of the unique hardware design, it can't use any of its "brute force" to render anything original on the fly the way that regular consoles and computers do, no matter how simple or complex. So no rotation, no Doom/Face Ball style graphics, no polygons, no wire frame. It literally can only do the kind of 2D games that its library consists of. The Genesis is the only 16-bit generation console to have much success rendering on the fly using shear brute force.

It also cannot "grow" sprites at all. The SNES can only scale up a single tile layer, so it starts perfect and then the pixels get bigger, but remains relatively proportionate. The Neo Geo can only scale down or "shrink" sprites. So it only looks perfect at the largest size, but distorts as soon as it begins shrinking, as detail is rapidly lost (unlike how the SNES simply enlarges the detail).

Neo Geo style down-scaling <---- ORIGINAL -----> SNES style up-scaling



Both the shrunken and grown images are shown at uneven integers, so you can see what the distortion looks like when it isn't blown up to 200%, 400%, etc. The Neo Geo style shrinking rapidly ruins the image, so it's no good for the kind of sprite scaling games you are suggesting. It would have to just use all animation, essentially fmv for the backgrounds, like Fast Striker does.

Here is that shrunken sprite evenly scaled back up 400% and the up-scaled sprite doubled to show the difference in distortion-



Riding hero is only doing the kind of racing background that 8-bit consoles do. It just shrinks sprites to save on space. Otherwise it's no different than Hang On for SMS. Only the SNES and later consoles can do the kind of Mode 7 that F-Zero does. Mode 7 created an entire new genre of racing gameplay. The old kind is still fun, but Mode 7 was something different and potentially deeper, just as fully 3D games are beyond Mode 7.

The Neo Geo isn't a super powerful console, it's just good at doing the one type of graphics that it can do. Compared to the Saturn and Playstation, the Neo Geo is overall on par with the PC Engine, Genesis and SNES.

A lot of what you said was proven wrong in discussion wrong ago, namely being maxed out on sprites and the "Brute Force" effect which is indeed possible and has been done so the discussion is moot.  I think you were not aware of the sprite chaining effect and how fast it is and how much room it can cover.  With almost limitless capacity and instant access to ROM space it could be done and Very well.  However if you limit the ROM to say 4MB or 8MB, problems do indeed occur and the "Brute Force" effect is limited so a chip like the SNES needed in addition to it's hardware to run the game may be in order.

I understand the Neo Doesn't grow sprites but it does indeed shrink a HIGH quality image and then can grow it back up again.  Benefits of a Massive ROM.  The SNES brings up a much lower quality image and the pixels get as big as your head.


Riding Hero for a lack of a better word is Dog Shit.  That said it is more of a Racing RPG with a lot of elements to save and designed as a quarter muncher.  Even for 1990-1991 it was a bad looking game but has a lot of elements below the surface.  The cart also has a Head Phone Jack port that allows you to link two games together to play two player, this is on both the home and arcade carts.

That said there is a lot more the Neo can do that you are not away of, it does so in it's own style and grace.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Evo apparently has his head in the sand and/or is mildly retarded, so I won't bother responding to his drivel. 

And when I say "can't" I mean. Never ever ever will. Tech demos and stats are fucking useless...

And this is why you come off sounding like a tool.  It serves absolutely no purpose to say system 'x' can't do game 'y', when you really mean game 'y' is only on system 'x'.  No fucking shit; way to state the obvious.

SNES can't do Timeball!

[Joe Redifer]

SNES can downscale and upscale (but downscaling takes more memory since the original object must be larger).

As for the Neo Geo ONLY being able to downscale, that's probably true, but the title screen of Alpha Mission 2 is pretty block-tastic.

[EvilEvoIX]

Evo apparently has his head in the sand and/or is mildly retarded, so I won't bother responding to his drivel. 

And when I say "can't" I mean. Never ever ever will. Tech demos and stats are fucking useless...

And this is why you come off sounding like a tool.  It serves absolutely no purpose to say system 'x' can't do game 'y', when you really mean game 'y' is only on system 'x'.  No fucking shit; way to state the obvious.

SNES can't do Timeball!

No need for being rude if someone does not agree with you, however I think we have thoroughly hijacked this thread.  That said let's refrain and if you wish to continue via PM or create a dedicated thread please let me know.

FYI looking at timeball.  No idea this existed.

[esteban]

No need for being rude if someone does not agree with you, however I think we have thoroughly hijacked this thread.  That said let's refrain and if you wish to continue via PM or create a dedicated thread please let me know.

FYI looking at timeball.  No idea this existed.

[CrackTiger]

SNES can downscale and upscale (but downscaling takes more memory since the original object must be larger).

As for the Neo Geo ONLY being able to downscale, that's probably true, but the title screen of Alpha Mission 2 is pretty block-tastic.

Up until recent years I believed that the SNES scaled up and down, until I read comments saying otherwise. It's cool to learn that it really can go both ways. No matter what the technical limitations are, SNES Mode 7 can do smooth 3D like environments. The most the Neo Geo could do is super scaler style games. Still cool, but very dfferent.

[CrackTiger]

Taken right from the thread you mentioned too BTW.  I think the biggest issue is "Mode 7" meaning that is it's name like "Xerox" or any other issue where the name of a company is used as a verb to describe many other things.  Mode seven is simply, as defined by sources and Wiki "The Super NES console has eight modes, numbered from 0 to 7, for displaying background layers, the last one (background mode 7) having a single layer that can be scaled and rotated."

It only works on backgrounds.  The Neo however can work MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE, larger then the screen if needed in multiple layers AND animated.  So is it exactly a SNES MODE 7 trick?  No, however it can be done and with better results from the Neo's power.

Here is the thread in question if you care to brush up on some history.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?16416-What-are-the-real-Neo-Geo-capabilities/page5

When I talked about discussions that broke down how and why the Neo Geo couldn't do any kind of rendering on the fly, I wasn't referring to older discussions which predate that revelation.

Here is a relevant thread if you care to brush up on some history.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17301-How-capable-would-the-Neo-Geo-MVS-AES-be-in-3D-polygon-graphics



After 3 pages of discussing why the Neo Geo can't render original graphics, this nugget pops up-

Couldn't you cheat a little?  Look at the game above, how about a rendered car and then a lot of frames of animation for the track?

Congratulations, you've just made an FMV game lool. Not a 3D game.

All of the possible work-arounds involved first creating a new type of cart with special ram to counter the Neo Geo's design flaw and then figure out a way to actually get that to work with the hardware...

You continued to propose the same stuff that you're trying to push here (I guess you thought that this forum lacks tech/programming experts). After your fmv-like suggestions were shot down, you asked about using a SFX2 style chip and yes it might work in theory... if you add it to that special cart you'd have to create first... but only after you figure out a way to get the Neo Geo hardware to interface correctly with the special memory on the special cart. So you can stick a good chunk of whole new console inside of a Neo Geo cart... and if it turns out that it is possible to actually get the Neo Geo hardware to make use of it... then you might be able to render something original. But otherwise, as I said, the Neo Geo can't do polygons and other stuff, even though the PCE, Genesis & SNES can.

What makes the MD superior to 3D type games over the Neo Geo?  The Neo couldn’t pull off something like the RESQ bonus stage?

It can but only with a special cart, the VDP reads from ROM directly so for the CPU to be able to render in software, you'd need to have some RAM on cart that the VDP would read thinking it was ROM.
I also thought it would be better at it then the MD (better processor, only having to worry about splitting the graphics horizontally..., taking advantage of the shrinking capabilities) but that's not the case.

[Tatsujin]

Lol, so he's debatting the same shit over here again, as he already did on Sega-16, and on which his ignorant blubbering was already quashed?

I suggest evilevoix to insert a full SFC into a Neo Geo cart

[roflmao]

For some reason, this makes absolute sense to me.  In fact I think I was about bout to post the very same response.

[Tatsujin]

I have one question regarding the NGs minus scaling ability (since I'm not one of those self-proclaimed experts). If the NG only can shrink a sprite from its original size to small and back again to original (like in Aof, Samo etc.), why does the cars etc. in riding hero getting all pixelated when they approaching near to the screen? Why not using the most near as the original size, so that it can't get pixelated in the first place? How can it even get pixlated (like segas super scaler, or SFC stuff), when the NG isn't capable of scale up stuff?

[EvilEvoIX]

When I talked about discussions that broke down how and why the Neo Geo couldn't do any kind of rendering on the fly, I wasn't referring to older discussions which predate that revelation.
Here is a relevant thread if you care to brush up on some history.
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17301-How-capable-would-the-Neo-Geo-MVS-AES-be-in-3D-polygon-graphics



After 3 pages of discussing why the Neo Geo can't render original graphics, this nugget pops up-

Couldn't you cheat a little?  Look at the game above, how about a rendered car and then a lot of frames of animation for the track?

Congratulations, you've just made an FMV game lool. Not a 3D game.

All of the possible work-arounds involved first creating a new type of cart with special ram to counter the Neo Geo's design flaw and then figure out a way to actually get that to work with the hardware...

You continued to propose the same stuff that you're trying to push here (I guess you thought that this forum lacks tech/programming experts). After your fmv-like suggestions were shot down, you asked about using a SFX2 style chip and yes it might work in theory... if you add it to that special cart you'd have to create first... but only after you figure out a way to get the Neo Geo hardware to interface correctly with the special memory on the special cart. So you can stick a good chunk of whole new console inside of a Neo Geo cart... and if it turns out that it is possible to actually get the Neo Geo hardware to make use of it... then you might be able to render something original. But otherwise, as I said, the Neo Geo can't do polygons and other stuff, even though the PCE, Genesis & SNES can.

What makes the MD superior to 3D type games over the Neo Geo?  The Neo couldn't pull off something like the RESQ bonus stage?

It can but only with a special cart, the VDP reads from ROM directly so for the CPU to be able to render in software, you'd need to have some RAM on cart that the VDP would read thinking it was ROM.
I also thought it would be better at it then the MD (better processor, only having to worry about splitting the graphics horizontally..., taking advantage of the shrinking capabilities) but that's not the case.

The threads and posts I have followed and the hardware I have studied have shown the Neo can indeed render polygons if needed.  It can also do a game like Mario Kart if needed.  Some camps agree on this some camps do not.  That said I will have to assume you just didn't read my post from other members and programmers.  Neither of us are experts her not have we published a game for these systems.

That said you have to follow what the hardware is made of, it's speed, and what it can do REALISTICALLY.  All the suggestions I have made were made there on Sega-16 and some were agreed upon such as minor polygon games in my previous post. We are also ignoring that the SNES required special chips to do mode 7, why is that constantly being ignored?

That said and again the Neo could do a Mode 7 style effect if needed.  In fact I'll show you a lesser Hardware configuration (Megadrive) doing so.

The above is Pier Solar, using a stock Sega genesis (NO SEGA CD HERE) to scale and rotate on the fly using the tried and true Motorola 6800 series chip.  The SNES requires additional hardware to do this.  

Again same quote from the same member you quoted to keep this apples to apples.

All the standard MegaDrive/SNES/PCE stuff can be done and better, on rails 3D games with sprites (like Soulstar) are easy too.
The free roaming stages aren't though, at least not without a lot of prerendered animation or other strange tricks to get it done.
Same goes for mode 7 racers, although something like batman and robin for the Sega CD can probably be done (and that style is much better IMO).
3D games (like starfox) can be done as well in the same way as the 3D stages in ResQ, but with more polygons.
Wolfenstein 3D might be possible too.

Just keep ignoring this?  IDK?
Again, it's what you make the system do and what your market is.  The Neo Go has a joy stick and 4 buttons, by far its greatest limiting factor.  A Mario Kart style game would be weird based upon the control scheme so it stays to its arcade roots.

Oh and if you want to program 3D on the Neo Geo, it can be done again with TRICKS, always a way.

http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=59253
Always remember there is someone smarter then you and when you resort to name calling and being dismissive it's because you ran out of words to express yourself properly.

That said you argue the Neo needs RAM to write the grafx to, Mode 7 style or polygons which the Neo Geo Motorola is MORE than capable of doing beyond any 16 bit console of the day, yet some developers just, oh what's that word I liked to use....BRUTE FORCE, that's it.  Just tricks and pixels is all it is.

[esteban]

STATUS: ... ... ...

[jeffhlewis]

YOU STILL AIN'T BOUGHT A SEGA CD?

[Tatsujin]

I have one question regarding the NGs minus scaling ability (since I'm not one of those self-proclaimed experts). If the NG only can shrink a sprite from its original size to small and back again to original (like in Aof, Samo etc.), why does the cars etc. in riding hero getting all pixelated when they approaching near to the screen? Why not using the most near as the original size, so that it can't get pixelated in the first place? How can it even get pixlated (like segas super scaler, or SFC stuff), when the NG isn't capable of scale up stuff?

wears teh experts?

[Joe Redifer]

This man is my hero. So much 'tude.

[SamIAm]

I'm new to the Neo-Geo debate, but if the VDP only sees memory that is read-only and is not accessible by the CPU, then obviously software rendering of anything is out the window. Unless you use...as everyone has said...a special cart that makes the memory writable and copies in whatever the CPU has drawn.

The Oxygene cube video is neat, but I'd be surprised if there was much more you could get out of that technique than what they're showing.

Also:

We are also ignoring that the SNES required special chips to do mode 7, why is that constantly being ignored?

What? Not in the cartridge, it didn't. Mario Kart used a DSP chip, but F-Zero used nothing.

[CrackTiger]

I have one question regarding the NGs minus scaling ability (since I'm not one of those self-proclaimed experts). If the NG only can shrink a sprite from its original size to small and back again to original (like in Aof, Samo etc.), why does the cars etc. in riding hero getting all pixelated when they approaching near to the screen? Why not using the most near as the original size, so that it can't get pixelated in the first place? How can it even get pixlated (like segas super scaler, or SFC stuff), when the NG isn't capable of scale up stuff?

wears teh experts?

Unfortunately, the SNES kicked off the pixelation-as-an-aesthetic craze, which carried over through the 32-bit generation. Just as Neo Geo games succumbed to the pre-rendered cgi craze, any other effects you see that are outside its abilities are just pre-rendered animation, as they are on other hardware that don't support them. To this day, lots of people prefer shrinking/growing (and other misc) effects to be pixelated instead of looking like frames of artwork.

[EvilEvoIX]

STATUS: ... ... ...

I can't fight all these battles at once, you're killing me smalls.....

I'm new to the Neo-Geo debate, but if the VDP only sees memory that is read-only and is not accessible by the CPU, then obviously software rendering of anything is out the window. Unless you use...as everyone has said...a special cart that makes the memory writable and copies in whatever the CPU has drawn.

The Oxygene cube video is neat, but I'd be surprised if there was much more you could get out of that technique than what they're showing.

Also:

We are also ignoring that the SNES required special chips to do mode 7, why is that constantly being ignored?

What? Not in the cartridge, it didn't. Mario Kart used a DSP chip, but F-Zero used nothing.

Systems can't do things until you make them do things.  That Tech demo cube thingy is more of a proof of concept versus what is being done.  Doing 3D on a Neo Geo is kinda weird as it was designed as a 2D power house.  That said the M6800 is more than capable if tapped properly.

Can the Neo Geo do exactly mode 7 grafx?  probably not but it can do something  similar enough and it would be faster, higher resolution, and more color.

[esteban]

STATUS: ... ... ...

I can't fight all these battles at once, you're killing me smalls.....

I'm just teasing you . Don't worry about me. I love Genesis/MegaDrive.

[Joe Redifer]

SNES games are more colorful than Neo Geo games. Neo Geo games look good, but they are still dither-city.

[Tatsujin]

i always considered the dither stlye as an art style of neo games, since it looked much different to f.e. mega drive dither style, which existed only for one reason to illusionat more on-screen colors which weren't available in the first place.

snes games are just more poppy, but never much colored as neo games.

take last resort f.e., quite some dithered stuff, but in terms of colors it looks 10 times better than anything on the snes ever.

[esteban]

i always considered the dither stlye as an art style of neo games, since it looked much different to f.e. mega drive dither style, which existed only for one reason to illusionat more on-screen colors which weren't available in the first place.

snes games are just more poppy, but never much colored as neo games.

take last resort f.e., quite some dithered stuff, but in terms of colors it looks 10 times better than anything on the snes ever.

Absolutely! I, too, think of dithering as an artistic technique (not merely a technical method for overcoming palette constraints).

Dithering, cross-hatching, engraving, wood-cutting, whittling, etc.

I don't mind dithering, usually. It's like all artforms: the hate/love is determined by the execution of the technique.

DITHERING + 2D > 3D + foggy mist effects

[KnightWarrior]

Final Fight CD
Sonic CD

[Joe Redifer]

So wait... dithering is shit on the Genesis but absolutely fantastic on the Neo Geo? Only on the PCEFX forums

The Neo does color dithering just like the Genesis. Look at the skies.  Never are there smooth gradients like the SNES. NEVER. Instead, every other layer is dithered. Art style?  Suuuuuuure. That looks waaay better than a smooth gradient (which apparently the Neo Geo cannot do).

[bob]

So wait... dithering is shit on the Genesis but absolutely fantastic on the Neo Geo? Only on the PCEFX forums

The Neo does color dithering just like the Genesis. Look at the skies.  Never are there smooth gradients like the SNES. NEVER. Instead, every other layer is dithered. Art style?  Suuuuuuure. That looks waaay better than a smooth gradient (which apparently the Neo Geo cannot do).

can't do mode 7 either.

[Joe Redifer]

Certainly not as well as the SNES but it might be interesting to see what it could do in the software. Pier Solar on the Genesis has a Mode 7 (all scaling and rotation is Mode 7, the internet says so) but it's in a small window and rather blocky.

[bob]

Certainly not as well as the SNES but it might be interesting to see what it could do in the software. Pier Solar on the Genesis has a Mode 7 (all scaling and rotation is Mode 7, the internet says so) but it's in a small window and rather blocky.

Oh, HA, I was talking about NG.

[EvilEvoIX]

Mode 7 is a SNES hardware trick that has scaling and rotation.  This is also facilitated by the most part on the SNES by additional helper chips that in effect are additional hardware.  The snes needs this due to a weak 16-processor that couldn't possible run it.  The MEGADRIVE cannot do mode 7 however the M6800 can more than do it via hardware computation.  The neo geo more so as it has the same processor and its almost twice as fast.  It would need to do it with large animated sprites however or tricks beyond our understanding like that 3D cube I posted.  It's all up to the programmer.

[bob]

...oh god, not more of this.
I'm sorry. 

[SamIAm]

You heard it here, folks. The SNES can't do mode-7 effects, but the Genesis can.

[_Paul]

Here's a video of Doom running on the ZX Spectrum. Therefore all your arguments are invalid.

[Joe Redifer]

Oh, HA, I was talking about NG.

So was I. I'm saying if the Genesis can do it in the software the NG might be able to kind of do it in a small window at a low frame rate.

[EvilEvoIX]

...oh god, not more of this.
I'm sorry.  

You have a lot of mud to sling but no substance, embarrassing actually I figured with such anger would at least come a point

You heard it here, folks. The SNES can't do mode-7 effects, but the Genesis can.

You misunderstood.  The SNES has specific hardware in the unit itself and in a lot of carts with additional hardware chips to do mode 7.  Mode 7 only applies to the SNES as it's a Nintendo term, so saying any other system can't do mode 7 is 100% accurate as only a SNES has mode 7 so duh.  That said the Megadrive can do a version of the Mode 7 trick it via it's CPU doing the math.  No special chips or hardware, just from the processor itself.  It's in a couple of games and or course prominently in Pier Solar so that's that.

[geise]

Here's a video of Doom running on the ZX Spectrum. Therefore all your arguments are invalid.

That is so awesome!  Thanks for sharing hahaha!


BTW what is this thread about again?

[bob]

...oh god, not more of this.
I'm sorry. 

You have a lot of mud to sling but no substance, embarrassing actually I figured with such anger would at least come a point

Oh, I'm far from angry.  But, you're starting to borderline on propaganda.

[Tatsujin]

Pce can do faceballer, pce can do the everything.