Post first impressions of TG-16 emulation -> 11.27.06: SSS, DE & Victory Run

[esteban]

Hi folks. Since Super Star Soldier, Dungeon Explorer and Victory Run are now available via VC, I would love to hear some of your first impressons.

I'm talking primarily to folks who have played the HuCards on real hardware (not via PC emulation). If I had a Wii, these are the impressions I would love to be posting myself. Alas, for now, I'll have to rely on you folks .

jlued mentioned (in another thread) that Bonk's Adventure seemed a bit "off" and said it seemed as if there were flickering in VC not found on real hardware.

I'd love to hear about any & all TG-16 titles available, not simply the ones released today.

[goat]

I have Super Star Soldier on virtual console. My wii is hooked up to a standard definition CRT TV (if you get a wii you owe yourself a nice quality SD CRT for, if nothing else, the virtual console for nes!)

The nes virtual console games look awesome. It seems true 240p: each scanline is at the same location each frame creating the horizontal black lines that are always visible. It looks completely crisp and nice, even with wii composite video (I don't have component cables yet). It's how I'd imagine the original nes to look if it had come with component out. I love it.

The TG-16 virtual console isn't so nice : : (: (   It's either being emulated with blurred textures or else the output is interlaced: it looks a little blurry and no crisp scanlines. I was a little sad.

I do own the pc-engine version of super soldier but I haven't done side-by-side tests and I'm not totally familiar with the original from memory. The virtual console on level 7(?) sometimes had the attacking ships moving *under* the turrets of the big battlestation type thing that scrolls by as you progress through the level (while being shown *on top* of the battleship's body). I noticed it while pausing, but that's not to say it didn't happen while playing. It was an obvious depth/display issue (not related to gameplay). I don't know if the original does that or not.

[esteban]

I have Super Star Soldier on virtual console. My wii is hooked up to a standard definition CRT TV (if you get a wii you owe yourself a nice quality SD CRT for, if nothing else, the virtual console for nes!)

The nes virtual console games look awesome. It seems true 240p: each scanline is at the same location each frame creating the horizontal black lines that are always visible. It looks completely crisp and nice, even with wii composite video (I don't have component cables yet). It's how I'd imagine the original nes to look if it had come with component out. I love it.

The TG-16 virtual console isn't so nice : : (: (   It's either being emulated with blurred textures or else the output is interlaced: it looks a little blurry and no crisp scanlines. I was a little sad.

I do own the pc-engine version of super soldier but I haven't done side-by-side tests and I'm not totally familiar with the original from memory. The virtual console on level 7(?) sometimes had the attacking ships moving *under* the turrets of the big battlestation type thing that scrolls by as you progress through the level (while being shown *on top* of the battleship's body). I noticed it while pausing, but that's not to say it didn't happen while playing. It was an obvious depth/display issue (not related to gameplay). I don't know if the original does that or not.

Ahhhh, thanks for the description. I was particularly interested in the blurry vs. crisp issue. Can anyone else comment on some of the observations made by goat (and, earlier, by jlued)? Thanks in advance.

[PCEngineFX]

I too have noticed a slight blur when playing TG-16 games.  I'd like to try with a better connector than composite...

[grendelrt]

I have mine hooked up with component, when I get a TG16 game, I will take a pic with a digicam or something. Still havent decided which game to grab.

[goat]

I received component cables and retried the virtual console (same standard def CRT tv). Moving from composite to component makes all virtual console games a little cleaner, but the TG emulator still lags behind the others in terms of crispiness. In SSS, bullets are definitely going underneath turrets on level 7 (still don't know if the actual console does that).

[CrackTiger]

Of the little time I've spent so far with several VC TG-16 games(via component progressive scan), they all appear to be more or less perfectly emulated. They do sound a little weird when played through surround sound.

The only hitch is that blurring filter effect(just like Capcom's Classic Collections), which I assume is a result of the image being scaled/stretched to 480p. The one time I tried playing my real actual Duo with S-Video on my LCD, it was choppy and ugly(since it sucks at 240i).

But VC games look fine, and my TV would display the new signal info it it did change formats when launching a Turbo game,so it must be 480p.

Which makes VC gaming worth the high price of admission. Plus, even with the blurring, it's still a clearer crisper picture than you can get from composite on a real console and more importantly, it has the nice vibrant color that you only get to see through emulation or an rgb/s-video mod.

I just hope that we get the opportunity to pay a one time fee to run CD games. I'd glady drop 2000 points for that.


EDIT: right after posting that, I fired up Super Star Soldier for the first time, a game I haven't really played on real hardware before. Although I never noticed anything going behing anything, on the second stage, at the same spot a power up often gets frozen in place or places for a while. The first time it happened, a green power up got stuck behind my score until I went after it and kind of pushed it around till it came loose.

[PCEngineHell]

The filter type blur you all are refering to comes from running 2d graphics on more advanced 3d hardware with better filters. This began to occur around the same time Hardware T&L occured oddly enough. Anymore these days to get a emulator to run in software you have to use  a non-TnL type graphics card like a Voodoo 3-5 or possibly run something in Dos or tell the emu to run in a software display mode (lower then 640x480 helps)  if thats even possible.

Given this is the Wii its doubtful they are going to have it run any emu in anything other then the highest res possible and they are going to run it with filters on ect ect...

[CrackTiger]

The filter type blur you all are refering to comes from running 2d graphics on more advanced 3d hardware with better filters. This began to occur around the same time Hardware T&L occured oddly enough. Anymore these days to get a emulator to run in software you have to use  a non-TnL type graphics card like a Voodoo 3-5 or possibly run something in Dos or tell the emu to run in a software display mode (lower then 640x480 helps)  if thats even possible.

Given this is the Wii its doubtful they are going to have it run any emu in anything other then the highest res possible and they are going to run it with filters on ect ect...

Shouldn't it be easy for something like the Wii to calculate out the emulated games scaled out how they literally look, independant of using the video card to stretch them?

Aren't the Genesis and SNES VC games supposed to be crystal clear?

[PCEngineHell]

The filter type blur you all are refering to comes from running 2d graphics on more advanced 3d hardware with better filters. This began to occur around the same time Hardware T&L occured oddly enough. Anymore these days to get a emulator to run in software you have to use  a non-TnL type graphics card like a Voodoo 3-5 or possibly run something in Dos or tell the emu to run in a software display mode (lower then 640x480 helps)  if thats even possible.

Given this is the Wii its doubtful they are going to have it run any emu in anything other then the highest res possible and they are going to run it with filters on ect ect...

Shouldn't it be easy for something like the Wii to calculate out the emulated games scaled out how they literally look, independant of using the video card to stretch them?

Aren't the Genesis and SNES VC games supposed to be crystal clear?

Well,to be honest with you it probably would be possible,but be careful what you wish for. If you want to see what happens  get a older voodoo 3500 and run it to your TV for emulation. You prob wont like how it looks because in software the games wont look like the native systems either by much,if at all. Typically it ends up looking ass ugly,where as the filters do some heavy clean up when run in hardware. If you want visuals that match the original system exactly then you should stick to using the original system. Video output is going to be defined by the hardware used.

[CrackTiger]

I'm really curious to see how the Genesis and SNES VC games look now. I'll have to wait a week till I can afford another points card though...

[goat]

The filter type blur you all are refering to comes from running 2d graphics on more advanced 3d hardware with better filters.

It's not the hardware's fault: programmers have the choice of what filter to apply.  It's the fact the programmer engaged a filtering mode that was designed to help with scaling and rotation of textures: something that's not needed for turbo grafx emulation. I'm assuming the emulators use textured primitives to display the sprites. If your source images were meant to map 1 to 1 with the display, leave filtering off. Maybe they thought they were getting a free anti-aliasing effect. Whatever the case, it looks bad.

[CrackTiger]

Hi folks. Since Super Star Soldier, Dungeon Explorer and Victory Run are now available via VC, I would love to hear some of your first impressons.

I'm talking primarily to folks who have played the HuCards on real hardware (not via PC emulation). If I had a Wii, these are the impressions I would love to be posting myself. Alas, for now, I'll have to rely on you folks .

jlued mentioned (in another thread) that Bonk's Adventure seemed a bit "off" and said it seemed as if there were flickering in VC not found on real hardware.

I'd love to hear about any & all TG-16 titles available, not simply the ones released today.

So far, all the VC games have muffled, tinny, rebalanced sound with various game by game differences. I've got a page with examples along with a bunch of other VC content I'll be unveiling soon.

Bomberman '93's the most different so far. The Battle Mode music is wrecked and the bomb explosion sound effect has been replaced.

As for the filter, after doing a series of screen captures from Turbo & Wii hardware, it looks like the VC TG-16 emulation its so blurred that composite and S-Video look identical. But the picture is nice and vibrant like a Duo with an S-Video or RGB mod and makes the Duo composite picture almost look b&w.

[esteban]

So far, all the VC games have muffled, tinny, rebalanced sound with various game by game differences. I've got a page with examples along with a bunch of other VC content I'll be unveiling soon.

Bomberman '93's the most different so far. The Battle Mode music is wrecked and the bomb explosion sound effect has been replaced.

As for the filter, after doing a series of screen captures from Turbo & Wii hardware, it looks like the VC TG-16 emulation its so blurred that composite and S-Video look identical. But the picture is nice and vibrant like a Duo with an S-Video or RGB mod and makes the Duo composite picture almost look b&w.

Awesome, I can't wait to hear your impressions of the games you've played and see what you'll add to your site!

For folks who are interested in this topic (TG-16's somewhat lackluster emulation in VC), I suggest you check out these threads:

1. Husdon forums: Military Madness is poorly emulated in VC

Be sure to check out the post by 9Nails, since he disscusses Bomberman '93 and even posted videos (DUO vs. Wii VC) on YouTube:

Direct link to YouTube:
2. VIDEO: Side by side comparison (splitscreen), Wii vs DUO, Bomberman '93 and Military Madness

NOTE: Military Madness is truly, truly bad! The scrolling is choppy and the music slows down! As you can imagine, this crappy emulation really, really hurts the flow of the game and makes it a chore to play. MM was not the quickest game to begin with, slowing it down further makes it unappealing to new audiences! Hudson is really lame on this one, as far as I am concerned. Folks paid good money, goddammit. The least they could provide was adequate emulation.



3. Hudson responds: Addressing Turbo Emulation on Nintendo Wii Virtual Console.

Be sure to read John Master Lee's post, since he has provided the only official response from Hudson about the emulation issues... and he didn't reveal much... but he does hint at why the filtering was chosen... can any of you guys figure it out?

Here's the relevant section (emphasis added!):

The Wii hardware is distinct, so there are distinct technical challenges, and there are distinct rules we have to follow as a matter of policy regarding how emulation needs to be handled. The emulator that we currently use is following these technical specs and guidelines. And no, despite conspiracy theorists, we are not deliberately trying to mask dated graphics, because the Turbo system still has some of the most impressive graphics of its generation. I may be throwing you guys too much of a bone here, but if you actually study the differences in the graphics between some of the original game and the new VC versions, you may actually figure out why the graphics are filtered at this stage. OK, I can say no more.

So, can any of you folks figure out what Master Lee is hinting at the close of this passage?

[Joe Redifer]

I don't understand why that dude can't talk more about the filters.  Why would such a thing be so secret?  What a douche.

[esteban]

I don't understand why that dude can't talk more about the filters.  Why would such a thing be so secret?  What a douche.

SHHHHHHHHHHH! It's a secret!

He just doesn't want to risk looking bad in the eyes of his employer. I don't know how much he is self-censoring and how much constraint is actually imposed on him, but either way, he doesn't provide any meaty info.

[Keranu]

That's a very fascinating post of Mr. John Lee that you posted, Steve. Hudson has been hiding nothing but secrets from us the past year.

[CrackTiger]

Awesome, I can't wait to hear your impressions of the games you've played and see what you'll add to your site!

For folks who are interested in this topic (TG-16's somewhat lackluster emulation in VC), I suggest you check out these threads:

1. Husdon forums: Military Madness is poorly emulated in VC

Be sure to check out the post by 9Nails, since he disscusses Bomberman '93 and even posted videos (DUO vs. Wii VC) on YouTube:

Direct link to YouTube:
2. VIDEO: Side by side comparison (splitscreen), Wii vs DUO, Bomberman '93 and Military Madness

NOTE: Military Madness is truly, truly bad! The scrolling is choppy and the music slows down! As you can imagine, this crappy emulation really, really hurts the flow of the game and makes it a chore to play. MM was not the quickest game to begin with, slowing it down further makes it unappealing to new audiences! Hudson is really lame on this one, as far as I am concerned. Folks paid good money, goddammit. The least they could provide was adequate emulation.



3. Hudson responds: Addressing Turbo Emulation on Nintendo Wii Virtual Console.

Be sure to read John Master Lee's post, since he has provided the only official response from Hudson about the emulation issues... and he didn't reveal much... but he does hint at why the filtering was chosen... can any of you guys figure it out?

Here's the relevant section (emphasis added!):

The Wii hardware is distinct, so there are distinct technical challenges, and there are distinct rules we have to follow as a matter of policy regarding how emulation needs to be handled. The emulator that we currently use is following these technical specs and guidelines. And no, despite conspiracy theorists, we are not deliberately trying to mask dated graphics, because the Turbo system still has some of the most impressive graphics of its generation. I may be throwing you guys too much of a bone here, but if you actually study the differences in the graphics between some of the original game and the new VC versions, you may actually figure out why the graphics are filtered at this stage. OK, I can say no more.

So, can any of you folks figure out what Master Lee is hinting at the close of this passage?

Well, I typed out a huge post on that thread and now Hudson's site is down(again).

As for what Master Lee is hinting at, maybe his and Hudson USA's opinion is that it's not masking the graphics, but making them even more detailed since you could consider the blurs extra shades. 

What he isn't hinting at, but is obvious from reading the Hudson forums and site is that those guys have nothing to do with making Hudson's games. They're pretty much just a PR outlet for North America and seem to pull most of what they say out of their ass when it comes to questions only the real Hudson Soft can answer.

I believe that Hudson Japan/Konami doesn't care enough to do the emulation properly and figure that they'll sell as many downloads either way.

From what I've heard, the other VC console's emulation isn't filtered. But either way, we all know that clear, quality Turbo emulation could easily be done on the Wii and for what they're charging, it should be.

And Steve, I can provide you with custom video(s), screenshots, a write up or anything else you want of Military Madness VC for your site. I'll have coverage of MM VC on my own site as well, but I can put together stuff specifically how you want it. Also, I don't know if I mentioned it yet, but I found another MM review, I think from GamePro. Do you need it?

[Keranu]

Yeah I can't connect to Hudson's site either. I was hoping to read that thread.

[CrackTiger]

The Wii hardware is distinct, so there are distinct technical challenges, and there are distinct rules we have to follow

Guess what? Unlike every other video game system ever made, the Wii is distinct. Apparently I never noticed that games have been exactly the same since Pong. 

there are distinct rules we have to follow as a matter of policy

In other words, before Hudson even began work on the emulation, they decided to make it blurry and buggy and can't renege on their commitment to do things half-assed. 

I may be throwing you guys too much of a bone here, but if you actually study the differences in the graphics between some of the original game and the new VC versions, you may actually figure out why the graphics are filtered at this stage. OK, I can say no more.

I honestly think that this guy has no clue, doesn't understand emulation or games in general himself and is just one of the customer support guys who was forwarded an emulation complaint as if it were any other phone call, but is trying to put a hip spin on it. 

[Keranu]

I may be throwing you guys too much of a bone here, but if you actually study the differences in the graphics between some of the original game and the new VC versions, you may actually figure out why the graphics are filtered at this stage. OK, I can say no more.

I honestly think that this guy has no clue, doesn't understand emulation or games in general himself and is just one of the customer support guys who was forwarded an emulation complaint as if it were any other phone call, but is trying to put a hip spin on it. 

Haha, so true  .

[Joe Redifer]

He is indeed hip. I bet he wears sunglasses at night.

[Keranu]

Even when driving at night. 

[Joe Redifer]

Man, he is hipper than hip!

[CrackTiger]

Hudson Entertainment's site is back up.

Since I posted this there I might as well show it here as well-

http://superpcenginegrafx.com/wii_video_temp.html

It's a preview of my VC/Turbo video comparison page.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Nice looking page Black Tiger.  Those rollover screenshots really show the differences a lot better than the video (likely YouTube's fault - surely the originals look better).  Now I'm almost tempted to have the s-video mod done to my Duo.  Your s-video captures look sooooo much better than composite.

[esteban]

CrackTiger -- great stuff! I concur with NecroPhile, the rollover effect is clearly the most effective way to illustrate the differences. You used the same technique with the Sapphire bootleg article, and I think you really help folks by making the comparison so easy to do. Remember those puzzles for children where you have to identify the differences between two pictures?  Those puzzles can be tough to solve. Likewise, identifying the differences between side-by-side screenshots can require a lot of effort.

Nice looking page Black Tiger.  Those rollover screenshots really show the differences a lot better than the video (likely YouTube's fault - surely the originals look better).  Now I'm almost tempted to have the s-video mod done to my Duo.  Your s-video captures look sooooo much better than composite.

Yeah, 9Nails (who made the YouTube comparison video) was frustrated with the way YouTube downgraded the image. His post says that the video doesn't truly capture the differences.

[Joe Redifer]

Great page.  I think I need to get my eyes checked because the Wii versions cannot be that blurry.  I think one of us needs to infiltrate the FBI and discover the super-secret classified reason that Hudson is using this filter.

[akamichi]

Man, the Wii's screens are too damn blurry!  I'd probably get a headache trying to play for any length of time.  Thanks for giving us a look CrackTiger.  Nicely done.

The one thing I learned from the page is... I need to get my Duo modded for S-Video.

[CrackTiger]

Man, the Wii's screens are too damn blurry!  I'd probably get a headache trying to play for any length of time.  Thanks for giving us a look Black_Tiger.  Nicely done.

The one thing I learned from the page is... I need to get my Duo modded for S-Video.

Yeah, I'd started work on a Turbo/PCE composite versus S-Video mod page that will use rollover images and videos and such. But like too many projects, I still haven't finished.

What stands out most is how with S-Video (and I assume RGB) the colors look vibrant like they're supposed to. But it the improved clarity actually totally changes dithered graphics that blended into unnatural colors through composite.

When I first got my Duro RX modded, I put up a small page with a couple decent examples-

http://members.shaw.ca/turboduo/svideo.html


I hadn't really compared S-Video captured screenshots to Magic Engine ones before and was actually pretty surprised myself at how close they are. 

[esteban]

Oh yeah, I wanted to add that I'm glad you used both rollover and side-by-side comparisons on the Wii page, B_T. Having both formats is the best of all worlds.

If I may: forget about your other projects and just work on the Wii comparison stuff! I'm joking (OK, half-joking), but I think your Wii stuff is very timely and a lot of folks will be interested in it.

[CrackTiger]

Oh yeah, I wanted to add that I'm glad you used both rollover and side-by-side comparisons on the Wii page, B_T. Having both formats is the best of all worlds.

If I may: forget about your other projects and just work on the Wii comparison stuff! I'm joking (OK, half-joking), but I think your Wii stuff is very timely and a lot of folks will be interested in it.

Thanks, but what's the deal with your signature? I don't get it. 

[goat]

CrackTiger, your comparison page is awesome. You should submit it to some gaming sites. I'm pretty sure it'd be covered and would be a great way to apply pressure for an emulator fix. Even though suggestions aren't being taken seriously at the moment, you can bet at the first sign of VC download stagnation Hudson(?) will react to gripes.

It's sad that when I brought the issue up at the Hudson forums (in early december), it was ignored by the "official" people. It took someone writing a *massive* ass-kissing essay there to get a response...

[esteban]

Man, he is hipper than hip!

Hey Joe! Your favorite fellow is in the news! Check it out:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=156286?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=CVG-General-RSS

He says that Nintendo will be offering original game downloads in the future. I haven't seen the original article, though, just this little blurb that references it.

[Keranu]

Man, he is hipper than hip!

Hey Joe! Your favorite fellow is in the news! Check it out:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=156286?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=CVG-General-RSS

He says that Nintendo will be offering original game downloads in the future. I haven't seen the original article, though, just this little blurb that references it.

I made a seperate thread that mentions this here . However thanks for your link though because it seems to contain more info, especially when CVG gets a response from Nintendo about it.

[esteban]

Man, he is hipper than hip!

Hey Joe! Your favorite fellow is in the news! Check it out:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=156286?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=CVG-General-RSS

He says that Nintendo will be offering original game downloads in the future. I haven't seen the original article, though, just this little blurb that references it.

I made a seperate thread that mentions this here . However thanks for your link though because it seems to contain more info, especially when CVG gets a response from Nintendo about it.

Man, I would have posted it over in the other thread! The "see recent posts" function on this message board is horribly broken! It didn't show me that thread last night, nor did it show it to me this morning! Friggin' annoying!

Note: All preceding sentences ended in an exclamation mark, for dramatic effect .

I'll re-post in your thread now...

[CrackTiger]

I may be throwing you guys too much of a bone here, but if you actually study the differences in the graphics between some of the original game and the new VC versions, you may actually figure out why the graphics are filtered at this stage. OK, I can say no more.

I honestly think that this guy has no clue, doesn't understand emulation or games in general himself and is just one of the customer support guys who was forwarded an emulation complaint as if it were any other phone call, but is trying to put a hip spin on it. 

Haha, so true  .

I saw a recent thread from the Master talking about he just found this nifty Hudson Music Collection 93 CD on eBay, while looking for Turbo stuff to learn what Hudson has actually done in the past.

If these guys were really part of Hudson Soft fold, wouldn't buddy just dial the direct line to Hudson of Japan and have them send over a ton of material on anything Hudson related he wants?

[Joe Redifer]

I would think he'd already know all about Hudson since he is the Master.

[CrackTiger]

I would think he'd already know all about Hudson since he is the Master.

Exactly. 

[esteban]

I would think he'd already know all about Hudson since he is the Master.

Exactly. 

!!!