Best Super Grafx Game !!!

[Turbo D]

What SuperGrafx game is the best? Lets see what the polls suggest.

[termis]

Well, considering I only own Battle Ace, I can't really put a proper vote.  Battle Ace is okay, but not a system seller.

Of all of them, I hear Grandzort (which isn't up on the list) is forgettable,
There are supposedly better ports of Darius on the PCE -- Super Darius 2.
1941 and Ghouls n' Ghosts can be found on Capcom Classics collections discs (and I presume are arcade perfect).

Which leaves Aldynes as the only game that's really worth going after for the SuperGrafx, yeah?

But hell, like I said, I don't own any of those except Battle Ace, so what do I know?   

[TurboXray]

Aldynes.

[peperocket]

I really like daimakaimura and 1941 but I vote granzort because it's a really nice and original game, only on SGX !!

[TR0N]

None becuse i don't own one 

[Tatsujin]

i would go with daimakaimura, coz i like it the most out of them. and it was or still is a famous port. for the exclusive game on that system i would go with aldynes.

[Seldane]

I don't like the Super Grafx.

 No RPGs.

[Digi.k]

I've only ever owned daimakaimura and 1941...

1941 was waaaayy to short for me and I thought the music arrangement coulda been much better.

Its gotta be Daimakaimura but I'm pretty sure that coulda been done on the pce after seeing street fighter II' champion ed.

[nat]

Of all of them, I hear Grandzort (which isn't up on the list) is forgettable,

I beg to differ! Granzort is a lot of fun. I find myself playing it quite a bit. But I will admit the blue suit is useless.

Actually, there are no real duds in the entire SGX library. In fact, *all* the games are quite good with the exception of Battle Ace. It's not a real stinker, but a bit disppointing.

The problem with SuperGrafx games in general is that none of them take advantage of the hardware. I can't think of anything on the SuperGrafx that couldn't be done just as well on the "regular" Turbo/PCE. Less flicker, yeah, maybe, but who creates an entire new console to eliminate flicker?

I believe that had game development for the SuperGrafx not ended prematurely, we would've eventually seen some games that really took advantage of the extra power and definitely impressed. An Arcade-CD SuperGrafx game would've been killer. Hudson was just getting it's feet wet with the SGX games that were released.

That said, it was a tough choice but I had to go with Aldynes as the best SGX title. It was a toss up between that, Granzort, and GnG. GnG lost right away because it's just a port, one of many (though a good one). Granzort lost because some of it's graphics in places look a bit too "dithered" for my taste, although it's great fun. Aldynes wins as an SGX exclusive that is a nice tight shooter, good music, and a good difficulty curve.

[ccovell]

The problem with SuperGrafx games in general is that none of them take advantage of the hardware. I can't think of anything on the SuperGrafx that couldn't be done just as well on the "regular" Turbo/PCE. Less flicker, yeah, maybe, but who creates an entire new console to eliminate flicker?

It sounds like you think the only thing the SGX adds is a few extra sprites.  Most of the SGX games have double-layered backgrounds which would be *impossible* to reproduce in a general sense on the regular PC-Engine.  Sure, sprites can be used to simulate objects appearing behind a single background, but you cannot get two full-screen planes moving around on a PCE like the SGX does.

[nat]

The problem with SuperGrafx games in general is that none of them take advantage of the hardware. I can't think of anything on the SuperGrafx that couldn't be done just as well on the "regular" Turbo/PCE. Less flicker, yeah, maybe, but who creates an entire new console to eliminate flicker?

It sounds like you think the only thing the SGX adds is a few extra sprites.  Most of the SGX games have double-layered backgrounds which would be *impossible* to reproduce in a general sense on the regular PC-Engine.  Sure, sprites can be used to simulate objects appearing behind a single background, but you cannot get two full-screen planes moving around on a PCE like the SGX does.

So the technicalities behind the two methods are different.

"Impossible to reproduce?" I don't think so. Unless you talking specifically from a coding standpoint. I won't pretend to know anything about coding video games, and I'm sure having seperate background planes is much easier to work with from that position as opposed to trying to simulate the effect using sprites and whatnot. But to the end user, ME, what's the difference? It all looks the same to the player and is only different on a technical level.

Think Gate of Thunder, Lords of Thunder, Air Zonk, Aeroblasters, Coryoon, Psychosis (stage 1, 2, 5), New Adventure Island (many stages), Ninja Spirit, R-Type (stage 5), Darius, Shockman 3, etc, the list goes on and on. Point being, there are tons of games on the "regular" Turbo that have multiple layers of scenery that scroll at their own speed.

The technical details of what goes on behind the scenes and how these effects are created is not important.

My point was that, of the handful of SGX games that were released, I don't believe any of them did anything that couldn't be done on the regular Turbo. This is not to say the SGX is not capable of doing wonderful things-- the game library available simply doesn't.

ADDITIONAL: After re-reading my comments in my previous message, I can see how perhaps the perception is that I was speaking of the SGX hardware itself. In fact, I was speaking only about the existing game "library". I'm interested to hear what portions of the existing SGX games you think couldn't be replicated on a regular Turbo. And I'm not interested in technical mumbo jumbo-- like I said before, how the effects are generated in each case is not the issue. It's the end result that the player sees that matters. Whether one console uses a "real" background layer or simulates one in software is not important to me.

FWIW, I think Sapphire is a lot more impressive visually than anything released on the SuperGrafx.

[Keranu]

Voted Granzort and Daimakaimura.

[CrackTiger]

1941 and Darius Plus. 

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Since I don't have a SuperGrafx, y'all can suck mah balls!  Based on emulator experience - I'd have to vote for GnG.

[Joe Redifer]

I don't believe any of them did anything that couldn't be done on the regular Turbo.

I GUARANTEE you that if Ghouls 'n Ghosts was on the regular Turbo/PCE that it would not have the multi-planed backgrounds.  This was often the case between games that appeared both on the Turbo and in the arcade, like R-Type.  The Turbo version of R-Type had a single plane of scrolling.  Stage 5 may be different, but I always shut the game off there because the second half bores me to tears.  But I imagine it's just the bottom and the top of the screen scrolling at a slightly different speed with no overlapping of the graphics.  However if the game were on the SuperGrafx, all of the levels could scroll like the arcade, and it would kick ass!  This goes for tons upon tons of games that appear on the Turbo.  Imagine a Gate of Thunder with even MORE layers.  The human mind just can't handle that much awesomeness!

[Keranu]

I can live without any parallax at all. Sometimes I tend to think no parallax looks better than parallax you would see in a game like Thunder Force IV. When I see the clouds in TFIV, they didn't cut out the shapes of the clouds and instead have a flat top, which kinda ruins the design if you ask me. I like my clouds fluffy, not boxy!

[Digi.k]

I don't believe any of them did anything that couldn't be done on the regular Turbo.

I GUARANTEE you that if Ghouls 'n Ghosts was on the regular Turbo/PCE that it would not have the multi-planed backgrounds.  This was often the case between games that appeared both on the Turbo and in the arcade, like R-Type.  The Turbo version of R-Type had a single plane of scrolling.  Stage 5 may be different, but I always shut the game off there because the second half bores me to tears.  But I imagine it's just the bottom and the top of the screen scrolling at a slightly different speed with no overlapping of the graphics.  However if the game were on the SuperGrafx, all of the levels could scroll like the arcade, and it would kick ass!  This goes for tons upon tons of games that appear on the Turbo.  Imagine a Gate of Thunder with even MORE layers.  The human mind just can't handle that much awesomeness!

Play parodius on the pce and check out the stages featuring the deadly bunny girls and the graveyard one there is like 5~6 layers of parallax!!

Theres a video uploaded on youtube but its no way as clear as what you gonna see on a big tv >.<

Honestly.. I think adding more parallax means bigger HUcard sizes and they're not cheap especially in those days so they had to cut things a bit in the graphics department!

[CrackTiger]

I think that parallax, independant bg's, etc or any kind of effect just for the sake of it is bunk (like Mode 7'sploitation) and can make some games look worse.

I don't believe any of them did anything that couldn't be done on the regular Turbo.

I GUARANTEE you that if Ghouls 'n Ghosts was on the regular Turbo/PCE that it would not have the multi-planed backgrounds.  This was often the case between games that appeared both on the Turbo and in the arcade, like R-Type.  The Turbo version of R-Type had a single plane of scrolling.  Stage 5 may be different, but I always shut the game off there because the second half bores me to tears.  But I imagine it's just the bottom and the top of the screen scrolling at a slightly different speed with no overlapping of the graphics.  However if the game were on the SuperGrafx, all of the levels could scroll like the arcade, and it would kick ass!  This goes for tons upon tons of games that appear on the Turbo.  Imagine a Gate of Thunder with even MORE layers.  The human mind just can't handle that much awesomeness!

Yeah, if NEC Ave was doing it. It may not be easy for most developers to do stuff like that, but it can and has been done, the most famous of course being Drac X.

The effect may not be accomplished the exact same way as a particular arcade game or how another console like the Genesis would do it.

But does it really matter in the end how its achieved?

[Tatsujin]

just play coryoon if you want to see some parallax^^

[Kitsunexus]

They're all great games, but the Supergrafx was a NIGH-USELESS system.

[nat]

I think that parallax, independant bg's, etc or any kind of effect just for the sake of it is bunk (like Mode 7'sploitation) and can make some games look worse.

I don't believe any of them did anything that couldn't be done on the regular Turbo.

I GUARANTEE you that if Ghouls 'n Ghosts was on the regular Turbo/PCE that it would not have the multi-planed backgrounds.  This was often the case between games that appeared both on the Turbo and in the arcade, like R-Type.  The Turbo version of R-Type had a single plane of scrolling.  Stage 5 may be different, but I always shut the game off there because the second half bores me to tears.  But I imagine it's just the bottom and the top of the screen scrolling at a slightly different speed with no overlapping of the graphics.  However if the game were on the SuperGrafx, all of the levels could scroll like the arcade, and it would kick ass!  This goes for tons upon tons of games that appear on the Turbo.  Imagine a Gate of Thunder with even MORE layers.  The human mind just can't handle that much awesomeness!

Yeah, if NEC Ave was doing it. It may not be easy for most developers to do stuff like that, but it can and has been done, the most famous of course being Drac X.

The effect may not be accomplished the exact same way as a particular arcade game or how another console like the Genesis would do it.

But does it really matter in the end how its achieved?

Thank you.

This, in a nutshell, is my entire point.

All I'm saying is that the few SuperGrafx games that did see the light of day don't offer anything that can't be done on the Turbo. And this, I believe, is the prime factor in it's premature death. The released games definitely did not "wow" you enough to warrant the purchase of the console. Whether or not the SuperGrafx hardware was capable of much more is not in question.

I'm forced to disagree 100% with Joe and Chris on this one. Sorry guys! I stand by my statement. Just because R-Type didn't have multi-layered scenery in all the levels like the arcade might have doesn't mean it's because it wasn't possible. The R-Type port was an early release in the life of the console and was a flickery mess as it is. Hell, they couldn't even fit it on one cartridge in the beginning. A GnG port on the Turbo that is visually the same as the SuperGrafx version is totally realistic. At the very worst you might get a little sprite flicker.

[Tatsujin]

completely agree with that all the games which where shown up on th SGFX could be done on the normal engine hardware with a finger flip. just look on a winds of thunder to what the hardware is/was capable, and just this small example beats the pants of any of the SFGX games. even it's a super cd-rom game it dosen't matter, since the hardware behind is completely the same, so the only limitation is the size of a hucard compared to the CD media but in terms of technical issues there stands nothing between.
 the only thing i could spot out on SGFX games just like 1941 e.g. is the used colorpalette which is more luscious and brings some good cps-1 feeling with it.

[ccovell]

Nat and Tat, you guys are confusing line scrolling (giving each scanline a parallax effect) with moving two background layers around.  Barring Battle Ace and Darius Plus/Alpha, ALL the SGX games do make use of the two independent background layers of the SGX.  Please check them out.  A second layer cannot be reproduced out of sprites on the PCE because there just aren't enough to do it full-screen.

Since you seem to have a mental block about SGX games, play the 1st level of Sonic on the Genesis.  See the foreground plane where all the enemies are?  See the sky/water background that scrolls around independently behind it, with line scrolling even?  The SGX can do all this just fine.  The PCE cannot.

[Tatsujin]

what the SGFX can/could do and what not is not on debating here.  i'm aware that the SGFX was capable to much more than that what we were allowed to see on those 5 games.

[TurboXray]

Play parodius on the pce and check out the stages featuring the deadly bunny girls and the graveyard one there is like 5~6 layers of parallax!!

Theres a video uploaded on youtube but its no way as clear as what you gonna see on a big tv >.<

Honestly.. I think adding more parallax means bigger HUcard sizes and they're not cheap especially in those days so they had to cut things a bit in the graphics department!

Nah, size has nothing to do with the style of scrolls in GOT,LOT,'zonk, and the video you posted. It has to do with working around limitations and tricking the gamer into thinking there are multiple scrolling BG layers. The keyword is limitation. Games designed around a systems limitations have an advantage of hiding it's limitations, than say a port from another system/arcade that does not have these limitations. Incase anyone's getting confused; I'm talking about multi layered BGs whether in parallax format or not.

 Parallax in that fashion (none overlaping layers) are very easy to do on the PCE.

Think Gate of Thunder, Lords of Thunder, Air Zonk, Aeroblasters, Coryoon, Psychosis (stage 1, 2, 5), New Adventure Island (many stages), Ninja Spirit, R-Type (stage 5), Darius, Shockman 3, etc, the list goes on and on. Point being, there are tons of games on the "regular" Turbo that have multiple layers of scenery that scroll at their own speed.

The technical details of what goes on behind the scenes and how these effects are created is not important.

See my previous statement that covers this. Those games hide the limitations of PCE's single plane BG. This mean it limits how a level designed or even how a game is laid out (see GOT and LOT). So I'd say it's pretty important

 Yeah, you can get dumb down versions of the SGX games for SCD and probably hucard (depending if the extra ram is needed or not), but you'll not be able to replicate the individual scrolling BGs. Granzort would definitely be a single scrolling plane and most likely GnG since it runs in mid res mode ( read: more flicker if on PCE).

 For me - it was a tie between 1941 and Aldynes. But I picked Aldynes since it wasn't a port.

[ccovell]

what the SGFX can/could do and what not is not on debating here.  i'm aware that the SGFX was capable to much more than that what we were allowed to see on those 5 games. 

I honestly don't think the SGX could do much more than what those games did.  It can show plenty of sprites, two backgrounds, and perhaps some sprite/BG priority special effects.  Perhaps Bonknuts can fill me in on any extra features or effects?

But anyway... I was responding to this comment which I had found to be untrue:

The problem with SuperGrafx games in general is that none of them take advantage of the hardware. I can't think of anything on the SuperGrafx that couldn't be done just as well on the "regular" Turbo/PCE.

The games that are there do take advantage of the hardware, viz: 2 scrolling planes.
And how can you reply to statements like that without comparing what the SGX could do that the PCE could not?

Nat, perhaps it's better to say something like "The problem with SuperGrafx games in general is that none of them really impress me," since one's opinion is just that, and I cannot argue with that.  But to say that none of the games use the unique features of the SGX hardware is just false.

I'm not saying we should debate this endlessly, just that we should be careful about making blanket technical statements.

[nat]

Nat and Tat, you guys are confusing line scrolling (giving each scanline a parallax effect) with moving two background layers around.

If they can both be used to produce the same visual on screen, what's the difference to the player one way or the other?

Barring Battle Ace and Darius Plus/Alpha, ALL the SGX games do make use of the two independent background layers of the SGX.  Please check them out.  A second layer cannot be reproduced out of sprites on the PCE because there just aren't enough to do it full-screen.

Since you seem to have a mental block about SGX games, play the 1st level of Sonic on the Genesis.  See the foreground plane where all the enemies are?  See the sky/water background that scrolls around independently behind it, with line scrolling even?

Example: In the distance there is a cityscape. There are buildings closer to me than that layer. They scroll independantly in front of the city scape, passing over it. There is still a closer "plane" in which the characters and enemies reside. This example is taken from the first level of Shockman 3, a non-SuperGrafx game.

I knew long before getting into this debate that the Turbo doesn't have a "real" second background layer. This was never the issue. I was never debating the Turbo and SuperGrafx had the same number of "real" background layers. I am saying the Turbo seems to simulate multi-layered scenery in software.

You seem intent on beating me over the head with the fact that the SuperGrafx has 2 background layers. That's great, and I always knew that. There are countless Turbo games that look, to me, like they have multiple background layers. I realize these are not "real" background layers in a technical sense. Please keep in mind that you are a developer (coder, dabbler, whatever) and I am simply a player. I see what's on my screen and pay little mind to how it gets there. It seems to me that the same technique used to simulate multiple background layers in, say, Shockman 3 could be used to create a port of, say, GnG, that is visually the same as the SuperGrafx version.

The SGX can do all this just fine.  The PCE cannot.

Uhhh. OK.  See my example a couple paragraphs back. Feel free to explain how this is different than your Sonic example. From a developer's standpoint, I get the picture these are quite different.  To me, a game player, these appear to be the same.

But anyway... I was responding to this comment which I had found to be untrue:

The problem with SuperGrafx games in general is that none of them take advantage of the hardware. I can't think of anything on the SuperGrafx that couldn't be done just as well on the "regular" Turbo/PCE.

The games that are there do take advantage of the hardware, viz: 2 scrolling planes.
And how can you reply to statements like that without comparing what the SGX could do that the PCE could not?

Nat, perhaps it's better to say something like "The problem with SuperGrafx games in general is that none of them really impress me," since one's opinion is just that, and I cannot argue with that.  But to say that none of the games use the unique features of the SGX hardware is just false.

Fair enough. Let me rephrase: "The problem with SuperGrafx games in general is that none of them take full advantage of the hardware."

Don't get me wrong, all this makes me sound a SuperGrafx-hater. I love my SuperGrafx and the games even if for no other reason than the pure novelty, and the fact that attached to the CD-ROM^2 unit it's the biggest console I've got. 

[TurboXray]

It seems to me that the same technique used to simulate multiple background layers in, say, Shockman 3 could be used to create a port of, say, GnG, that is visually the same as the SuperGrafx version.

Shockman (shubibin..bibin...biba. whatever) 3 looks awesome, but that effect is actually really limited and would not lend it self to a PCE port GnG or any other of the SGX games.

meh~ all we're trying to say is; that's not possible to do GnG/etc effects even though it looks possible via other PCE games    Those games were just really well designed and hide the limitation of a single BG layer.

Also - I need get off my ass and finish porting my SGX demos to CD for all you SGX+SCDROM2 owners out. Maybe I'll post them over the weekend. Also be nice to see Chris's SGX demo on CD 


PS: the SuperGrafx's a sexy beast, second only to the original white PCE

[Turbo D]

PS: the SuperGrafx's a sexy beast, second only to the original white PCE

Hell ya it is !!!

[ccovell]

If they can both be used to produce the same visual on screen, what's the difference to the player one way or the other?

But they can't produce the same visual!
Line scrolling is akin to stacking two cans of tuna fish, one on top of another, and sliding them around on top of each other.
Dual-field/plane parallax is akin to placing a jar in front of another, and you can see the rear jar through the transparent sections of the front jar.
Does this make you hungry yet?

I see what's on my screen and pay little mind to how it gets there. It seems to me that the same technique used to simulate multiple background layers in, say, Shockman 3 could be used to create a port of, say, GnG, that is visually the same as the SuperGrafx version.

Yes, the city in Shockman looks quite nice.  That's in fact done with a different kind of trick, which usually has the limitation that graphics in the foreground be rectangular (or blocky at any rate).  Hence... the buildings are completely opaque and rectangular, completely unlike a tree, as in GnG, or a bush, loop-the-loop, as in Sonic, etc.

If I could see the water THROUGH the windows of those buildings in ShubibinMan 3, then I'd be really impressed! 

[Joe Redifer]

Covell is 100% right, it is NOT the same visual effect and that is fact which cannot be argued.  However I am not surprised that some Turbo/PCE fans argue against it.  They prefer the Turbo, so they HAVE to go with the "less is more" argument (like Keranu's "1 BG looks better than multi-BGs" statement).  If the Turbo only had a total palette of 32 colors with only 16 onscreen at any time, they'd probably argue that more colors look bad because it adds too much distracting detail to the visuals or something.

As for some of the parallax examples given, the Sega Master System and even the NES can do most of those!  Notice in that Parodius video as the big chick scrolls onto the screen, the multi-layers go away.  With the SuperGrafx, they wouldn't need to fade out and back in with a single BG.  The chicky would just scroll in on top.  I don't remember how the arcade did it, but it would be far more able to replicate the arcade on the SG.  Gate of Thunder, Lords o' Thunda and Dracula X are all very impressive... for the Turbo.  They probably get on Keranu's nerves, though.

[Tatsujin]

PS: the SuperGrafx's a sexy beast, second only to the original white PCE

Hell ya it is !!!

unfortunatelly only very few people thinking that way

[Keranu]

They prefer the Turbo, so they HAVE to go with the "less is more" argument (like Keranu's "1 BG looks better than multi-BGs" statement).

I never said 1 BG looks better than multi-BGs, I said sometimes it can because I found some multi-BGs to look dull like the cloud level of TF4. Other times it can look gorgeous, like in parts of Shape Shifter or Ranger X. And why would I complain about SGX's parallax? All the games I've seen it with look fine, but it's such a small added feature to me that I wouldn't care if some games didn't even have the parallax. I hate it when people think if a game doesn't have parallax the graphics automatically suck. Art will always be the key importance of good graphics.

Notice in that Parodius video as the big chick scrolls onto the screen, the multi-layers go away.  With the SuperGrafx, they wouldn't need to fade out and back in with a single BG.  The chicky would just scroll in on top.

That is such a minor detail though and hell I never even noticed that. For the most part, I don't think the typical gamer is going to give a crap either way for that scene.

I don't remember how the arcade did it, but it would be far more able to replicate the arcade on the SG.  Gate of Thunder, Lords o' Thunda and Dracula X are all very impressive... for the Turbo.  They probably get on Keranu's nerves, though.

Gates did a fantastic job with multi-BG, especially level three. However I did find some multi-BGs in Lords and Dracula X to suffer the "blocky effect".

[Digi.k]

Nah, size has nothing to do with the style of scrolls in GOT,LOT,'zonk, and the video you posted. It has to do with working around limitations and tricking the gamer into thinking there are multiple scrolling BG layers. The keyword is limitation. Games designed around a systems limitations have an advantage of hiding it's limitations, than say a port from another system/arcade that does not have these limitations. Incase anyone's getting confused; I'm talking about multi layered BGs whether in parallax format or not.

 Parallax in that fashion (none overlaping layers) are very easy to do on the PCE.

That really was my point on the video in that the pc engine could demonstrate layered scrolling (and again like a few other people have mentioned so too could the NES and master system)!


If anyone else still thinks the pc engine can't do layered scrolling here's some more videos (magical chase) to show it can (maybe its using trickery to give the effect that it's layered scrolling but its there for the average gamer like me to see):

and you can watch Black Tiger complete the full game from this link:

ninja spirits Genpei toumaden 2 vid:

As for some of the parallax examples given, the Sega Master System and even the NES can do most of those!  Notice in that Parodius video as the big chick scrolls onto the screen, the multi-layers go away.  With the SuperGrafx, they wouldn't need to fade out and back in with a single BG.  The chicky would just scroll in on top.  I don't remember how the arcade did it, but it would be far more able to replicate the arcade on the SG.  Gate of Thunder, Lords o' Thunda and Dracula X are all very impressive... for the Turbo.  They probably get on Keranu's nerves, though.

Thats cause in the arcade parodius version of that same level the multi layers fade away too before the "big chick" scrolls onto the screen.  I just played it on mame to confirm it,  and relying on memory is a bad thing!!  I know!!

The point of that video was that the pc engine could show multi layered scrolling not whether it matched the arcade graphics for graphics.

screenshots of arcade parodius pink cloud stage:
/parodius.jpg

anyway back to this topic... I don't know WHO said that the pc engine could match the supergrafx in terms of graphics but I thought the point was about those supergrafx games could have been done on the pc engine.. I dont' Think any pro-sayer's said pc engine would match it pixel for pixel its only the nay-sayer's that seem to point this bit out!

Even if Ghouls and Ghosts, Aldynes and granzort were ported onto the pc engine without layered scrolling and less graphical effects it STILL woulda been the same game!!

[peperocket]

Also - I need get off my ass and finish porting my SGX demos to CD for all you SGX+SCDROM2 owners out. Maybe I'll post them over the weekend. Also be nice to see Chris's SGX demo on CD 
PS: the SuperGrafx's a sexy beast, second only to the original white PCE

Hey Rich,
I hope to see this demo soon because I really love my supergrafx baby !!

[Nazi NecroPhile]

The attitude of many on this board seems to be the exact reason that the SuperGrafx was abandoned.  Increased flicker and missing independent backgrounds (or at least faked and somewhat different looking backgrounds) do not make a game complete and utter crap, but this doesn't mean that it's the exact same game either.  I agree with Bonknuts and ccovell that the PCE could not reproduce exact copies of the SG games, but it could be close - yet close only counts with high explosives.  It's fair to say that the SG games are not terribly impressive when compared to some PCE games, but that shouldn't be a huge surprise - the SG isn't all that much more powerful than a PCE.

PS: the SuperGrafx's a sexy beast, second only to the original white PCE

The SuperGrafx comes out on top if you include the Power Console flight stick thingy.  That sexy mofo can make anyone its bitch.

[PCEngineHell]

Daimakaimura is my fav for the system. I think over time alot more could have been tapped out of the Supergrafx,esp in the arcade area and possibly in the cd game area. It using the same type cpu as the Pc-Engine is not a bad thing at all,and I was fine with the audio of the system from the few games released.8-bit HuC6280A really was fine at the time,I mean most arcade games back then were either using Zilogs or 68000 cpus anyway and relied heavily on the graphics hardware,pretty much like the Supergrafx.

Victory Road on Zilog based PSYCHO SOLDIER hardware ,P.O.W. and Robocop on normal 68000 based hardware with no frills,Trojan,Legendary Wings,Avengers running on Capcom Zilog based Section Z hardware,Pang and Super Pang/Buster Bros. on Zilog hardware,Vigilante on the Zilog based M75 hardware,I could go on and on. Really the SuperGrafx was very cutting edge for its time hardware wise,and almost matched the System 16 hardware capabilities other then in audio,which cd games could have resolved possibly.

Unlike Keranu I happen to like Lightening Force alot,esp its backgrounds,and I tend to love multilayer backgrounds and foregrounds. To me it just adds to the game,but everyone has their own taste. If the Supergrafx had survived,I would probably be collecting games for it and have one sitting right beside my NeoGeo,cause I have  a feeling it would have had a ton of 90-100 percent perfect arcade ports. The Pc-Engine already showed its graphics might with Rayxanber 2-3,Dracula X,the Neo Geo ports on Arcade Card,SF 2 Champ,Gradius 1,2,Salamander ect ect. Thinking how much more the Supergrafx was able to do makes you think how much of a waste it was to let it die off so soon.

[Joe Redifer]

Really the SuperGrafx was very cutting edge for its time hardware wise,and almost matched the System 16 hardware capabilities other then in audio,which cd games could have resolved possibly.

Let's not forget the SuperGrafx's lack of scaling.  It would also need about, oh, at least 32,000 or so more colors.  And probably more sprite power.  And speed.  Other than that it is exact. 

[PCEngineHell]

I think your thinking of the Outrun hardware,which didn't even use that many colors....
System 16 specs pretty much revolve around this:
Note only System 16B supports sprite zooming.
Main CPU : MC68000 @ 10 MHz
Sound CPU : Z80 @ 5 MHz
Sound chip : YM2151 @ 4 MHz +  ( NEC uPD7759 ADPCM decoder @ 640 kHz in System 16B)
Video resoution : 320 x 224 (vertical)
Colours : 4096
Board composition : Mother board + Rom board
Hardware Features : 128 Sprites on screen at one time, 2 tile layers, 1 text layer, 1 sprite layer with hardware sprite zooming, translucent shadows.

1 sprite layer with sprite zooming is not as intensive as alot of scaling found on other hardware. Thats why there is not a ton of it going on in System 16 games anyway as it is.

For reference here is the Outrun hardware specs:
Main CPU : 2 x MC68000 @ 12.5 MHz
Sound CPU : Z80 @ 4 MHz
Sound chip : YM2151 @ 4 MHz & SegaPCM @ 15.625 kHz
Video resoution : 320 x 224
Board composition : CPU board + Video board
Hardware Features : 128 Sprites on screen at one time, 2 tile layers, 1 text layer, 1 sprite layer with hardware sprite zooming, 1 road layer, can draw 2 roads at once, translucent shadows.

Games run on this hardware,Limited Edition Hang-On,Out Run,Super Hang-On,Turbo Out Run.


Granted some of this could be wrong,but this is what I am seeing on the net for the Supergrafx,and I am inclined to believe most if not all of it:

*CPU: 8-bit HuC6280A, a modified 65C02 running at 3.58 or 7.16 MHz (switchable by software). Features integrated bankswitching hardware (driving a 21-bit external address bus from a 6502-compatible 16-bit address bus), an integrated general-purpose I/O port, a timer, block transfer instructions, and dedicated move instructions for communicating with the HuC6270A VDC.
*GPU: A multiple graphics processor setup. One 16-bit HuC6260 Video Color Encoder (VCE), two 16-bit HuC6270A Video Display Controllers (VDCs), and one HuC6202 Video Priority Controller. The HuC6270A featured Port-based I/O similar to the TMS99xx VDP family.
Display
*Resolution
** Horizontal resolution: variable, maximum of 512 (programmable in increments of 8 pixels)
** Vertical resolution: variable, maximum of 242 (programmable in increments of 1 scanline)
** The majority of SuperGrafx games use 256×224.
*Color
** Depth: 9 bit
** Colors available: 512
** Colors onscreen: 482 (241 background, 241 sprite)
** Palettes: 32 (16 for background tiles, 16 for sprites)
** Colors per palette: 16
*Sprites
** Simultaneously displayable: 128
** Sizes: 16×16, 16×32, 32×16, 32×32, 32×64
** Palette: Each sprite can use up to 15 unique colors (one color must be reserved as transparent) via one of the 16 available sprite palettes.
** Layers: The dual HuC6270A VDCs are capable of displaying 2 sprite layers (1 each). Sprites could be placed either in front of or behind background tiles.
*Tiles
** Size: 8×8
** Palette: Each background tile can use up to 15 unique colors via one of the 16 available background palettes.
** Layers: The dual HuC6270A VDCs were capable of displaying 2 background layers (1 each).
Memory
*Work RAM: 32KB
*Video RAM: 128KB (64KB per HuC6270A VDC)
Audio capacity
* 6 PSG audio channels, programmable through the HuC6280A CPU.
* The addition of the CD-ROM peripheral adds CD-DA sound, and a single ADPCM channel to the existing sound capabilities of the SuperGrafx.

System 16 and Supergrafx can both display 128 sprites.System 16 has 1 sprite layer. Supergrafx has 2 sprite layers I take it? There are tricks and work arounds to get kinda near the same effect as sprite zooming found in System-16 hardware. Yes,System 16 can display more colors,but its not like you ever said the pc-Engine was colorless. Monster Lair was on both System 16 and Pc-Engine,and both look pretty much the same,and that is one of the most colorful games on System 16.

I always laugh when people think System 16 is mighty,when its actually pretty weak compared to alot of other hardware used on pcbs.Even the updates done to the hardware for System 18 were not up to snuff other then for the audio. What do you expect though,its hardware is built around what was needed in 1986 for high end usage.

A real system to contend with would be the MVS:
Main CPU: MC68000 @ 12MHz
Sound CPU: Z80 @ 4MHz
Sound hardware: YM2610 @ 8MHz
Sound Capability: Stereo up to 56KHz, 4 channels FM (4 operators + LFO) + 3 PSG + 1 noise + 7 4-bit ADPCM
Video hardware: 2 palette banks with 4096 (15-bit) colours each. Simple (4-bit) tile layer + 380 zoomable, linkable sprite-strips. Sprite-strips consist of upto 32 16x16 (4-bit) tiles each.
Resolution: 320x224.
Main RAM: 64KB
Sound RAM: 2KB
Video RAM: 128KB (only 68KB is used)
Main ROM: 128KB on-board (BIOS) + upto 8MB on cartridges
Sound ROM: 128KB on-board (only less then 32KB used) + upto 512KB on cartridges
Sprite ROM: up to 64MB
Tile ROM: 128KB on-board + 128KB on cartridges, later cartridges use a portion of sprite ROM that can be larger.
Sound ROM: up to 16MB
Backup RAM: 64KB
Clock/calender: NEC uPD4990a
Memory Cards: JEIDA 3.0 compliant.

Pretty much Segas best most powerful hardware 2D wise was from the Y-board and System 32 days.

[Kitsunexus]

I could have sworn that Outrun also ran on ANOTHER board, and it wasn't Mega-Tech. Guess I was wrong. And for the record, my favorite SuperScaler boards are:

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=698
http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=699
http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=710

Love the sound chips in those.

BTW, everyone of those soundchips labeled SegaPCM are actually made by Ricoh.

[Tatsujin]

some of best pieces of 2D hardware of all time. also in audio wise!!

loved AB Cop to no end in the arcades back in time. for me the definitive Chase.H.Q

[ccovell]

Yes, I love [half of] the [uh... few] SGX games that I have.  It was a sexy beast, but just too little, too late.  The PC-Engine was designed to compete against the Famicom only, which it did well.  By the time 1988-1989 rolls around, NEC is up against the Mega Drive and Super Famicom, and they go into panic mode.  But rather than throw a little cash and time towards a great new system, NEC goes for this stopgap measure...  It is depressing.

Check out the reactions (scroll down a little bit) from game companies when the Super Famicom was demonstrated in 1988:
https://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/SFC_1988Q4.html

And to depress you more, check out comments from some of the same companies when the SGX was demonstrated in 1989.
https://www.chrismcovell.com/sgxreactions.html

[Joe Redifer]

Ah, I thought the System 16 was the "super scaler".  Too bad the Neo Geo didn't/couldn't do anything like that, but instead just had wave after wave of fighters with only a few dozen or so non-fighters (it seemed).  Lame.

[elnino]

What a question, it's Daimakaimura with its hilarious Princess Purin Purin of course!!

[Tatsujin]

Hudson Since this is a big brother to the PC-Engine, it gives software houses a good chance to try. Development pays the maximum reward.

rolf

Hudson The Shuttle is perfect for the user who doesn't want to try CD-ROM. We want to make some software for these new users.

roffel rolf

[PCEngineHell]

Ah, I thought the System 16 was the "super scaler".  Too bad the Neo Geo didn't/couldn't do anything like that, but instead just had wave after wave of fighters with only a few dozen or so non-fighters (it seemed).  Lame.

The Neo could do racing games with scaling fine. It had scaling ability just as good as the OutRun hardware,and could display more sprites.All around the Neogeo had better video hardware. I think they avoided doing alot of racing titles because of the joystick interface. Riding Hero was kinda a big pain to play with it.For having a massive wave of fighters it also had these non-fighters (over 80 titles I think) to offer:

Aero Fighters 2 & 3
Alpha Mission 2
Andro Dunos
Bang Bead
Baseball Stars Professional
Baseball Stars 2
Blazing Star
Blue's Journey
Bust a Move 1 and 2
Captain Tomaday
Chibi Marukochan Deluxe Quiz
Crossed Swords
Cyber-Lip
Eight Man
Flip Shot
Football Frenzy
 Ghost Pilots
Goal! Goal! Goal!
Gururin
Irritating Maze   
Last Resort   
 League Bowling    
Magical Drop 2&3   
Magician Lord   
Mahjong Kyoretsuden
Metal Slug 1-5 and X    
Money Puzzle Exchanger
NAM 1975   
Neo Bomberman   
Neo Driftout
Neo Geo Cup '98
Neo Mr. Do!   
Neo Turf Masters
Nightmare in the Dark
Ninja Commando   
Over Top
Panic Bomber
Pleasure Goal
Pop 'N Bounce
Power Spikes 2   
Prehistoric Isle 2
Pulstar
Joy Joy Kid
Puzzle de Pon! & R version   
Quest of Jong Master
Quiz King of Fighters
Riding Hero
Shock Troopers and 2nd Squad   
Soccer Brawl
Spinmaster
Stakes Winner 1&2
Dunk Dream
Strikers 1945   
Super Baseball 2020    
Super Dodge Ball
Super Sidekicks 1-4
The Super Spy
Tecmo World Soccer   
Thrash Rally
Top Hunter    
Top Player's Golf    
Twinkle Star Sprites
Viewpoint   
Zed Blade
Zupapa!

I think the System 16 hardware A and B both only had around 40 titles to their name.

[ccovell]

Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure the Sega super scalers could both shrink and enlarge sprites, whereas the Neo-Geo could only shrink sprites.  Reading the technical docs, the NG can scale sprites vertically in 256 steps, but horizontally in only 16 steps (which is why it is sometimes juddery.)

The inability to enlarge sprites means that really large sprites on-screen take up tons of VROM/VRAM.

[PCEngineHell]

You know,you might be right about that,but in reference to it there are alot of games where objects and characters shrink and enlarge and so on. Riding Hero,The Super Spy,Metal Slug series in certain spots. There are others too. Riding Hero was pretty much on par with Super Hang On graphically,other then looking  a little cleaner. I just cant stand to play it with a AES stick,it sucks.

Considering Riding Hero was made proves it had the ability to produce racing games like Outrun and Super Hang-on,possibly even better if more ram,money,time,and experience was invested. But I mean,SNK had no AM2 of their own to produce these types of games,and very little experience with it,and the Neo was meant to be popped in and out of normal jamma cabs,not driving cabs. Lack of analog steering and foot pedal support eliminated the driving need to produce racing games of those types on the Neo Geo. Too bad in a way,because if they would have at least produced one MVS that supported that type of cab,arcade vendors could have saved alot on newer racing titles. I don't even think SNK had any real racing titles using pedal/steering wheel untill Hyper-64 with the dedicated Hyper 64 driving game board.

/superbikecompare.png

Not bad considering the Neo did not have 2 68000 cpus under its belt. The Super-Scaler hardware was designed just to run the simulation titles AM2 produced,and other then its scaling power,its pretty limited in the other sprite handling aspects compared to the Neo Geo's (at the time) more modern video hardware. If Super-Scaler was used to do normal games all you would end up with is System-16 with better scaling effects,the outcome still being much the same as the normal System-16 titles like Shinobi,E-Swat,or Bayroute because they share the same 128 sprite displaying abilities.

[Kitsunexus]

Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure the Sega super scalers could both shrink and enlarge sprites, whereas the Neo-Geo could only shrink sprites.  Reading the technical docs, the NG can scale sprites vertically in 256 steps, but horizontally in only 16 steps (which is why it is sometimes juddery.)

The inability to enlarge sprites means that really large sprites on-screen take up tons of VROM/VRAM.

You are correct, sir.  I forget which board it is, but there is one Z80 scaler board that scales with CLOCK speed.... it's pretty crazy.

[Tatsujin]

riding hero showed some great grafx but sucked in gameplay, which super hang on didn't. super hang on also had some radical up/down hill courses and an amazing and unforgetable speed feeling. riding hero just didn't have any pepp in his ass. for me, there're almost no comparable parts in those two games, super hang on was just superior in any aspects of view (exept of the grafx).