Sega's best console

Seldane · 04/24/2007, 04:47 AM

Quote from: Digi.k on 04/23/2007, 08:46 PMIts also pretty amazing how the european cover of Guardian Heroes .. they decided to remove the female heroes from the cover and replace them with male baddies... O_o

I don't think that's strange at all, considering all japanese drawings of female characters are extremely sexist. Not a good thing to put on a product at all.

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 04/23/2007, 09:53 PMPopful Mail used Redbook. I guess I'm just misinformed. ._.

That it did not. Popful Mail did not use either redbook speech nor redbook music.

Joe Redifer · 04/24/2007, 05:45 AM

The Sega CD version sure didn't have any redbook that I recall. Was the PC Engine version thew same way?

CrackTiger · 04/24/2007, 08:11 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/24/2007, 05:45 AMThe Sega CD version sure didn't have any redbook that I recall. Was the PC Engine version thew same way?

The PCE version is all redbook.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/24/2007, 01:19 AMYou are right, but I am saying that you cannot count streamed ADPCM on Turbo when comparing TurboGrafx games with good/bad voices to Genesis games with good/bad voices since the ADPCM is not part of the TurboGrafx-16 system (it is part of the CD hardware), just as the extra PCM chips in the Sega CD are not part of the Genesis hardware. Obviously the voices are streamed, there's no way to store all that data in RAM. Many Sega CD voices (mostly sound effects) are stored in its 512K PCM RAM, though.

Yeah, but I never mentioned streamed voice, only the sound effect kind. Does the ADPCM really play a role in actual sfx with the PCE?

And if it doesn't allow higher sound quality (is only used for storage), then the samples are still run through the PCE hardware and could be used in a HuCard game. In this case, it'd be the equivelant of graphics in a CD game, where the CD and System Card are storage space, but the graphics are still real examples of what the hardware on its own can do.

Do the PCM chips in the Sega-CD increase quality at all? If not, then non-streamed samples in CD games should also be a good example for the Genesis.

Joe Redifer · 04/24/2007, 02:18 PM

The ADPCM is another sound chip in itself, just like the 8 channel PCM is a sound chip separate from the Genesis. It resides in the CD hardware and can only be used by CD games (though it would be REALLY cool to see HuCard or Sega cartridge games use extra features of the CD hardware... though that kind of happens with HuCard games that save). It's kind of like saying the Genesis can't do an accurate version of Space Harrier 1, even though the 32X (which adds stuff to the Genesis) does a pretty good job at it.

Keranu · 04/24/2007, 03:40 PM

Quote from: guest on 04/24/2007, 08:11 AMYeah, but I never mentioned streamed voice, only the sound effect kind. Does the ADPCM really play a role in actual sfx with the PCE?

Actually don't some CD games do? Shubibin Man 3 comes to mind with the window breaking sound effects in the second level along with various others. I do know that a secret Frozen Utopia project will be use some ADPCM sound effects ;) .

CrackTiger · 04/24/2007, 08:10 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/24/2007, 02:18 PMThe ADPCM is another sound chip in itself, just like the 8 channel PCM is a sound chip separate from the Genesis. It resides in the CD hardware and can only be used by CD games (though it would be REALLY cool to see HuCard or Sega cartridge games use extra features of the CD hardware... though that kind of happens with HuCard games that save). It's kind of like saying the Genesis can't do an accurate version of Space Harrier 1, even though the 32X (which adds stuff to the Genesis) does a pretty good job at it.

But how do you know when sfx are using the ADPCM and when they're just the same as HuCard samples?

Because most sampled sfx in PCE CD games aren't anything special.

Kitsunexus · 04/24/2007, 10:06 PM

Quote from: guest on 04/24/2007, 08:10 PMBut how do you know when sfx are using the ADPCM and when they're just the same as HuCard samples?

Maybe it sounds better?

Joe Redifer · 04/25/2007, 01:02 AM

For the longest time I didn't know about the ADPCM (it wasn't mentioned in any of the mags and I figured the Turbo was doing all of the non-redbook sound work, including all of the streamed voices. I was almost kind of sad to find out that was not the case. Anyway with the quality of the ADPCM being what it is, it is indeed hard to tell what would be making the sound... the Turbo or the CD ADPCM chip. I'm under the impression that anything sampled in CD games comes from the PCM chip (unless it is simply a HuCard game on a CD, etc). Maybe there is some way to see what channels do what in an emulator? I'm pretty sure that the cool growls and yells in Lords of Thunder are ADPCM, and they are obviously loaded into memory and not streamed.

On the Genesis 1 + Sega CD 1 it is easy to tell what is making a sound if you have it hooked up with the included mixing cable. Just turn down the volume on the Genesis 1 and every sound you hear will be from the CD unit. All of the Genesis-made sounds will go away.

Seldane · 04/25/2007, 06:47 AM

Well you can turn off the volume on each individual chip, including adpcm in Magic Engine.

Kitsunexus · 04/25/2007, 09:17 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/25/2007, 01:02 AMMaybe there is some way to see what channels do what in an emulator?

That's why I love ZSNES and NESticle.

Seldane · 04/25/2007, 10:40 AM

Emulators are for suckers.

Nazi NecroPhile · 04/25/2007, 11:41 AM

Quote from: Seldane on 04/25/2007, 10:40 AMEmulators are for suckers.

So are CDs. Fuck ADPCM - TurboChip FTMFW!

OldRover · 04/25/2007, 11:32 PM

ADPCM owns.

CrackTiger · 04/29/2007, 06:08 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/25/2007, 01:02 AMFor the longest time I didn't know about the ADPCM (it wasn't mentioned in any of the mags and I figured the Turbo was doing all of the non-redbook sound work, including all of the streamed voices. I was almost kind of sad to find out that was not the case. Anyway with the quality of the ADPCM being what it is, it is indeed hard to tell what would be making the sound... the Turbo or the CD ADPCM chip. I'm under the impression that anything sampled in CD games comes from the PCM chip (unless it is simply a HuCard game on a CD, etc). Maybe there is some way to see what channels do what in an emulator? I'm pretty sure that the cool growls and yells in Lords of Thunder are ADPCM, and they are obviously loaded into memory and not streamed.

On the Genesis 1 + Sega CD 1 it is easy to tell what is making a sound if you have it hooked up with the included mixing cable. Just turn down the volume on the Genesis 1 and every sound you hear will be from the CD unit. All of the Genesis-made sounds will go away.

I tried a few CD games the other day, while playing with the ADPCM volume in Magic Engine. They all used only the ADPCM for sampled effects.

Some of the games were Lords, Drac X, World Heroes 2, Kabuki Itouryoden and Dragon Slayer.

Which is kinda lame, since so much more could be done with the CD format and multiple sound channels(which no longer need to get eaten up by PSG music).

Anyways, here's some TurboGrafx HuCard voice clips-

https://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/TurboGrafxVoiceExamples.mp3

And here are samples from the same games, but with a bunch more-

https://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/TurboGrafxVoiceExamples.mp3

Champions Forever is a good example of what could've been done in more HuCards with sampled sounds. But it also shows how the ADPCM should've only been a part of the digitized sfx in CD games.

Kitsunexus · 04/29/2007, 06:16 PM

Quote from: guest on 04/29/2007, 06:08 PMAnyways, here's some TurboGrafx HuCard voice clips-

https://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/TurboGrafxVoiceExamples.mp3 Champions Forever is a good example of what could've been done in more HuCards with sampled sounds. But it also shows how the ADPCM should've only been a part of the digitized sfx in CD games.

It's on par with the Genesis. Did you make that catchy little song in the beginning of the second example ? That was awesome! It reminds me of what they used to do with the PC speaker in on PC games:

http://www.oldskool.org/sound/pc/#digitized

CrackTiger · 04/29/2007, 06:59 PM

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 04/29/2007, 06:16 PM
Quote from: CrackTiger on 04/29/2007, 06:08 PMAnyways, here's some TurboGrafx HuCard voice clips-

https://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/TurboGrafxVoiceExamples.mp3

And here are samples from the same games, but with a bunch more-

https://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/TurboGrafxVoiceExamples.mp3

Champions Forever is a good example of what could've been done in more HuCards with sampled sounds. But it also shows how the ADPCM should've only been a part of the digitized sfx in CD games.
It's on par with the Genesis. Did you make that catchy little song in the beginning of the second example? That was awesome! It reminds me of what they used to do with the PC speaker in on PC games: http://www.oldskool.org/sound/pc/#digitized

Thats all directly taken from Champions Forever Boxing. All the music is mixed from samples. There are only a couple of PSG sounds in the whole game.

Joe Redifer · 04/30/2007, 09:56 PM

Quote from: GuestAnyways, here's some TurboGrafx HuCard voice clips -
_{► /www.superpcenginegrafx.net/TurboGrafxVoiceExamples.mp3}

Those are cool, thanks for doing that. I feel that the Genesis' best voices (in the MP3 I provided) sound a bit cleaner. These kind of "pop on" and "pop off". But these are definitely better than the NES and I like hearing examples of what the system is doing on a card-only basis. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to more MP3s of other systems' best voices like NES, SMS hell even the 7800 and Intellivision! Oh I guess we should throw SNES in there as well, to be fair.

Kitsunexus · 04/30/2007, 10:04 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/30/2007, 09:56 PMIntellivision!

BEEEEE-SEHVUN TEEEEN BAAAAAWMBUR!

Joe Redifer · 04/30/2007, 10:52 PM

Here is a voice comparison of Street Fighter II between the SNES (Turbo with a paltry 20 megs), Genesis (Special Champion Edition with 24 furious power-packed megs), and TurboGrafx-16 Entertainment SuperSystem (Champion Edition with a pathetic 20 megs). - 6 voices each.

_{► /crap/SF2.mp3}

None of them sound "great", but the Genesis definitely sounds the worst. Capcom never mastered that system, unfortunately. I find it interesting that some of the SNES voices are faster, especially on "Tiger Uppercut" and Ryu's "Perfekshetburrrrllget!!!"

guyjin · 04/30/2007, 11:56 PM

I never noticed that Chun li's defeat cry doesn't echo on the genesis, or the tg16. Does it echo in the arcade?

Keranu · 05/01/2007, 01:06 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/30/2007, 09:56 PMBut these are definitely better than the NES and I like hearing examples of what the system is doing on a card-only basis.

You obviously haven't played the Sesame Street games for NES, it has the best voice samples coming from a cartridge.

Joe Redifer · 05/01/2007, 01:08 AM

Prove it or I will call you a whore.

Guyjin, it is possible that I picked the wrong sample from the SNES version. THE Genesis and PCE versions have the same samples under the same numbers in the sound test, but the SNES version is all screwed up and you can't even switch numbers in the sound test with the d-pad. This proves that the SNES is technically inferior to everything, even a Pontiac Grand-Am.

Keranu · 05/01/2007, 01:10 AM

I don't have the real cart to record from (I know how much you demand this), so would it be ok for me to record from an emulator?

Hobo Xiphas · 05/01/2007, 04:39 AM

I can vouch for the incredible voice work in the Seasme Street games for NES.

They are the equal to anything I've heard on a Genesis or SNES cart, seriously.

"YOU FOUND....THE COUNT!"

Joe Redifer · 05/01/2007, 05:49 AM

I tried the Sesame Street Count game in an emulator. Rarely is there more than one or two words said at a time. Then they are pieced together like "you found....... .... ... four" and "find...... ..... .. ... ..... . four"

CrackTiger · 05/01/2007, 08:47 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/30/2007, 09:56 PM
Quote from: CrackTigerAnyways, here's some TurboGrafx HuCard voice clips-

https://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/TurboGrafxVoiceExamples.mp3
Those are cool, thanks for doing that. I feel that the Genesis' best voices (in the Mp3 I provided) sound a bit cleaner. These kind of "pop on" and "pop off". But these are definitely better than the NES and I like hearing examples of what the system is doing on a card-only basis. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to more MP3s of other systems' best voices like NES, SMS hell even the 7800 and Intellivision! Oh I guess we should throw SNES in there as well, to be fair.

The problem is that like other effects and such, most developers either didn't put too much effort into HuCard development or were super stingy with the Meg size.

Although those were some of the better examples I found after a quick browse through Magic Engine, at least the best of them show a benchmark what can be done with real Turbo hardware. Who knows how good samples could've got.

Plus Champions Forever, SFII and TV Sports Football all have a large ammount of sampled audio, so chances are they didn't use the highest quality possible. I wouldn't be surprised if Champions Forever uses more space for sound than graphics.

I was going to include the Mario voice sample demo, but the only computers in my house that work with my flash card are down.

Even though the Intellivoice is extra hardware like the Turbo CD-ROM, I don't think that many people will be any less impressed by the voice samples.

Keranu · 05/01/2007, 05:24 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 05/01/2007, 05:49 AMI tried the Sesame Street Count game in an emulator. Rarely is there more than one or two words said at a time. Then they are pieced together like "you found....... .... ... four" and "find...... ..... .. ... ..... . four"

Who cares about that. You know the quality itself was the crispest you've ever heard.

Kitsunexus · 05/01/2007, 05:57 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 05/01/2007, 05:49 AMI tried the Sesame Street Count game in an emulator. Rarely is there more than one or two words said at a time. Then they are pieced together like "you found....... .... ... four" and "find...... ..... .. ... ..... . four"

It's like the educational games for SNES starring Mario, with the little kids saying "Let's go to..........................................................Alphabet World!".

Except on the SNES it sounds like it was recorded in the Vatican...

Joe Redifer · 05/01/2007, 08:02 PM

LOL!

I will definitely agree that the voices in Sesame Street are absolutely amazing for the NES, but I think even the Turbo's best sound better quality-wise.

CrackTiger · 05/01/2007, 09:09 PM

I just tried out the Sesame Street game on an emulator and the voice is amazing!

Way better than the lispy 'Turle Powor!' from TMNT.

Joe Redifer · 05/01/2007, 09:14 PM

The Sega Master System generally had pretty crappy voices, but the ones in Street Fighter 2 were really good, all things considered.

_{► /crap/SF2_SMS.mp3}

CrackTiger · 05/01/2007, 09:35 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 05/01/2007, 09:14 PMThe Sega Master System generally had pretty crappy voices, but the ones in Street Fighter 2 were really good, all things considered.

Click here to listen

Was that captured from a real cart? Because it sounds a little different than when I play it on my PC in Meka.

Joe Redifer · 05/01/2007, 09:37 PM

Quote from: guest on 05/01/2007, 09:35 PMWas that captured from a real cart ? Because it sounds a little different than when I play it on my PC in Meka.

No I used an emulator called SMS Plus on the Mac... more proof that you can't really trust emulation for accurate results. So which emulator is wrong ? Impossible to say without the actual game. Both are probably wrong.

Kitsunexus · 05/01/2007, 09:39 PM

Quote from: guest on 05/01/2007, 09:35 PMWas that captured from a real cart ? Because it sounds a little different than when I play it on my PC in Meka.

EDIT: ~~Joe only captures from real hardware~~, and MEKA is a shit emulator anyway, use KEGA Fusion.

Amd Joe, what's with the Casio VL-1 in the background!?

Joe Redifer · 05/01/2007, 09:57 PM

Huh?

Kitsunexus · 05/01/2007, 10:03 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 05/01/2007, 09:57 PMHuh?

I swear I'm hearing one of these in the background: http://www.synthmuseum.com/casio/casvltone01.html

Sounds like this:

Joe Redifer · 05/01/2007, 11:00 PM

Nope. Not sure what you're hearing. I listened again and can't hear any tones.

CrackTiger · 05/02/2007, 01:17 AM

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 05/01/2007, 09:39 PM
Quote from: CrackTiger on 05/01/2007, 09:35 PMWas that captured from a real cart? Because it sounds a little different than when I play it on my PC in Meka.
EDIT: ~~Joe only captures from real hardware~~, and MEKA is a shit emulator anyway, use KEGA Fusion.

Amd Joe, what's with the Casio VL-1 in the background!?

I only play SMS carts on SMS/MarkIII hardware and only emulate SMS roms in SMS emus.

Keranu · 05/02/2007, 01:46 AM

There are lots of other NES games I have played with really good voices too, but I don't know any off hand. I'll have to go through the ROM list sometime to pick them out.

KungFuKid · 05/29/2007, 10:00 AM

Yeah, those voice samples from SMS SF2 are about right - I just played the cart to see and they are actually quite good. They're not bad on Mortal Kombat 2 and Robocop V Terminator as well.

Seldane · 05/29/2007, 10:09 AM

By the way, Kega Fusion is not good at emulating the Sega Master System, as it stretches out the picture. It is impossible to get a correct aspect ratio using it. Meka is much better, but features a nasty GUI which renders the entire thing unusable.

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Sega's best console

Which was the best out of all the Sega game consoles?