PC-FX: Polygon Capable?

[Kitsunexus]

So we all know this pic of SSS3D:



But is it real? It looks to be about the level of the Namco System 21 hardware, however like in the case of SEGA CD Silpheed it can be easily faked.

What do you think?


As for me, I want to believe it's real, but the simple fact that FX Fighter had to be FMV makes me skeptical.

[Keranu]

Well it could be possible since from what I know any system can do polygons, but it sucks up all the hardware which can make it run really slow and barely have any shading. There are a few Genesis games that show off real polygons (can't remember their names, they were mentioned in the Ranger X thread) and looked awful, so with the more powerful PC-FX hardware it could be possible. Or maybe this game used that unreleased 3D card thing.

[GUTS]

I doubt its real, although that screenshot doesn't really look much better than Virtua Racing on Genesis so it might have been possible.

[handygrafx]

NEC's 32-bit console was in development for over 4 years, a long time for a console to be in R&D in those days.

that picture is realtime polygon graphics generated by the Project Tetsujin board aka IronMan
aka Hudson 32-bit board from 1992,  basicly the early PC-FX when it was going to have some level of 3D polygon capabilities.  Hudson & NEC did away with / scrapped the polygon capabilities, and instead improved the FMV playback quality, for the final system.

see this thread for more detailed info on the changes the PC-FX went though during its development.

[Seldane]

I wonder why they didn't make it capable of handling 3d? A strange decision.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Easy question - $$$

NEC wanted to cut costs to be price competitive with the Saturn and the PlayStation (which was still cheaper).  Unfortunately, they weren't competitive by any other measure.

[Kitsunexus]

NEC's 32-bit console was in development for over 4 years, a long time for a console to be in R&D in those days.

that picture is realtime polygon graphics generated by the Project Tetsujin board aka IronMan
aka Hudson 32-bit board from 1992,  basicly the early PC-FX when it was going to have some level of 3D polygon capabilities.  Hudson & NEC did away with / scrapped the polygon capabilities, and instead improved the FMV playback quality, for the final system.

see this thread for more detailed info on the changes the PC-FX went though during its development.

Sweet. Thanks!

[Seldane]

Ah, I get it then. They wanted it to be a failure. Good move.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

They gambled and lost big time.  They must have thought that 3D was nothing more than a gimmick and that gaming would remain 2D.  Definitely not the sharpest knives in the drawer. 

[Kitsunexus]

They gambled and lost big time.  They must have thought that 3D was nothing more than a gimmick and that gaming would remain 2D.  Definitely not the sharpest knives in the drawer. 

See also: Sega Saturn

[handygrafx]

I weap everytime I read these old EGM Quarterman Gossip columns

May 1990


June 1992
/rsznec32bitmt6.jpg

[Kitsunexus]

EGM Quarterman

Notice why he's not in the new editions of the magazine? BECAUSE 95.7% OF THE TIME HE WAS FULL OF SHIT.

I wish I could find his "Sega is releasing a Halo-Killer" rant for you guys, it's pure hilarity.

It's dumbfucks like him that make video gaming journalism not taken as serious.

[GUTS]

He still has a monthly column in EGM, and he actually is right more often than not.

[Kitsunexus]

EGM SUCKS!

[Tatsujin]

So we all know this pic of SSS3D:



As for me, I want to believe it's real, but the simple fact that FX Fighter had to be FMV makes me skeptical.

if the PC-FX would use FMV to show the upper pic, it would look in minimum a 100 times better than that. i'm sure it's fo'real. and not that impressive though, since even a SFC with FX-chip could handle this few polygons.

[termis]

I can't recall how accurate Quarterman was with his reports, but it was a good read back in the days when I actually cared about new system & game gossip.

Reading over his columns now (where we know if it became true or not) is kinda fun in its own right.

[handygrafx]

btw this image seems to be 100% believable to me.  Looks like a leap beyond what SNES SuperFX, SuperFX2 and SEGA's SVP chips can do, yet  significantly BELOW the polygon power of Namco's System 21 and SEGA's Model 1 arcade hardware.

The above doesn't look like pre-rendered CG/FMV like these infamous shots:

[GUTS]

EGM rox.  They're the only mag that employs guys who would be normal if you met them in real life, every other mag is chocked full of internet nerds.

[Kitsunexus]

EGM rox.  They're the only mag that employs guys who would be normal if you met them in real life, every other mag is chocked full of internet nerds.

So you should probably have realized that I don't read game magazines. The Internet is free and mroe frequently updated, my friend.

[Seldane]

Yeah, but also full of said nerds.

[Tatsujin]

but anyway. i remember how excited i was at that time, to see such great 3D grafx, which would be soon possible in our own four walls 

[nat]

I'm not crying that the PC-FX didn't have the same polygon-generating capabilities the PSOne and Saturn did.

Those first-generation polygon graphics looked like absolute SHIT. I thought so at the time, and even more so today. They completely lacked the beauty and intricacies that made "pixel art" and sprite-based graphics so great in the "16-bit" era. Jagged, jerky, uninspired, and filled with bland, boring, vomit-inducing "textures". Playing the original Playstation at a friend's house was what prompted me to completely skip the "32-bit" generation of consoles. During those years I really just concentrated on playing my Turbo, Genesis and NES games, completely igonoring the gaming scene of the day.

Today, a few console generations later, polygon-based graphics have improved 999.9% from 1994. While I'll still happily take a 2D side-scroller over a 3D game any day, there are lots of really good-looking 3D polygon-based games out there that don't make me want to commit suicide over their mediocrity.

In retrospect, it's a pity I didn't own a PC-FX at the time. That would've been my console of choice to succeed the 16-bit and 8-bit consoles I loved so much. Unfortunately, I didn't know much about it other than it would be extremely hard to get one.

[Tatsujin]

absolute agree so far, but you may forgot, that a lot of excellent highgrade 2D software came out on the PSX as well as saturn during the whole 32 bit era. i started into 32 bit game in '97 with gradius gaiden and akumajou dracula x gekka no yasoukyoku. unforgetable time.

[nat]

but you may forgot, that a lot of excellent highgrade 2D software came out on the PSX as well as saturn during the whole 32 bit era. i started into 32 bit game in '97 with gradius gaiden and akumajou dracula x gekka no yasoukyoku. unforgetable time.

Did not forget, but my younger ignorant self was unaware of this. All my friends who had Playstation's were playing things like Tony Hawk. Nobody I knew had anything 2D on the Playstation so the impressions were formed completely based on the shittygon-based 3D games of the period. Ignorant of me to not investigate further, but there it is.

It wasn't until the end of the '90s and the GameCube/PS2/Dreamcast were looming on the horizon that I realized there had been some real quality 2D stuff I'd missed. Live and learn, I guess.

Still, there is no arguing the fact that the craptacular early 3D games are what dominated the market at the time.

[Seldane]

While PS1 3d is a horrific thing to experience, it was a large part of what made the system so incredibly successful. Obviously, most people didn't care about the nasty graphics. Had NEC used equally horrible 3d for the PC-FX, maybe it wouldn't have been such a monumental disaster.

[handygrafx]

I would've been happy with PC-FX being the kind of system that SEGA had originally envisioned the Saturn to be, when the Saturn was being developed as the GigaDrive; the ultimate 2D sprite pushing machine. on the software-side, I would've wanted the PC-FX to go in the same direction as the PC-Engine, CD-ROM2, SuperGrafx, SuperCD-ROM2, etc, in 32-bit quality.   no 3D polygon graphics, and a balanced mixture of sprite-based an FMV/anime based games.

[nat]

Had NEC used equally horrible 3d for the PC-FX, maybe it wouldn't have been such a monumental disaster.

Perhaps, but here's one guy who's thankful they didn't.

I would've been happy with PC-FX being the kind of system that SEGA had originally envisioned the Saturn to be, when the Saturn was being developed as the GigaDrive; the ultimate 2D sprite pushing machine. on the software-side, I would've wanted the PC-FX to go in the same direction as the PC-Engine, CD-ROM2, SuperGrafx, SuperCD-ROM2, etc, in 32-bit quality.   no 3D polygon graphics, and a balanced mixture of sprite-based an FMV/anime based games.

The PC-FX kind of already is as you say. The game library is not as balanced as you imply, but the selection is there. Contrary to popular belief, the PC-FX game library is not all FMV/anime games.

[Kaminari]

the PC-FX game library is not all FMV/anime games.

Indeed. It's mostly all FMV/anime games.

[Kitsunexus]

Contrary to popular belief, the PC-FX game library is not all FMV/anime games.

Yeah, there's that one space shooter, and Team Innocent, I can't think of anymore off the top of my head though.

[nat]

Off the top of my head:

Miraculum: The Last Revelation (overhead RPG)
Last Imperial Prince (sidescrolling action RPG)
Super God Trooper Zeroigar (shooter)
Team Innocent (Resident-Evil style)
Boundary Gate
Chip Can Kick (Bubble Bobble-style arcade)
Der Langrisser FX (sequel to Warsong on the Genesis)
Return to Zork (utilizies a little FMV, otherwise a graphic adventure like Myst)
Little Red Riding Hood Cha-Cha (board game)
Blue Breaker (RPG sidscroller)
Zenki FX (side scrolling beat 'em up adventure)

..and the list could go on. These are games in my personal PC-FX collection that aren't of the FMV anime genre. Many of those are real gems, too.  There are many more that I don't own.

My point is that it's not quite fair to write off the PC-FX as a simple FMV anime player.

Indeed. It's mostly all FMV/anime games.

If by mostly, you mean more than 50%, then you might be technically correct. But you have to remember there are less than 100 PC-FX titles to begin with. The library is certainly a little heavy on those kinds of titles, but there is a good mix in there of other stuff.

[CrackTiger]

They gambled and lost big time.  They must have thought that 3D was nothing more than a gimmick and that gaming would remain 2D.  Definitely not the sharpest knives in the drawer. 

See also: Sega Saturn

The Saturn was capable of rendering cutting edge 3D when it was developed. The PSX just raised the bar at the last minute as a 3D centric console. So Sega thew in a few extra parts and shipped it as-is. Turned out pretty freaking well considering.

[rag-time4]

Off the top of my head:


Der Langrisser FX (sequel to Warsong on the Genesis)


..and the list could go on. These are games in my personal PC-FX collection that aren't of the FMV anime genre. Many of those are real gems, too.  There are many more that I don't own.

My point is that it's not quite fair to write off the PC-FX as a simple FMV anime player.

Warsong is available on PCE CD-ROM as well. I tracked it down immedeately when I found out. I always enjoyed Warsong on the Genesis.

[nat]

The sequel on the PC-FX is just fucking awesome. I'm not usually a fan of turn-based strategy RPGs but I can't put it down whenever I play it.

As for the original Warsong, how does the PCE version compare to the Genesis version?

[SuperDeadite]

The PC-E version of Langrisser is actually a remake with different (superior) battle maps from the Genesis original.  The PC-E version's maps were used for the Saturn and PS1 ports which came much later.  PC-E also has absolutely stunning Redbook arangements of Noriyuki Iwadare's awesome soundtrack.  The game is very cheap, and the soundtrack is worth the price alone!

Personally I don't like "Warsong" cause the game's localization was terrible.  They totally butchered Satoshi Urushihara's character designs.  Overal though Langrisser Dramatic Edition (Saturn) has the best version of Langrisser and Der Langrisser.  If you get Langrisser Tribute, you get the best versions of all 5 games in one package.      

However, Der Langrisser FX has some interesting oddities that don't appear elsewhere.  For example, characters actually shout the name of spells when they cast them.  Also it has "hard" mode which features a total script rewrite that turns the whole game into a comedy, full of drinking, gambling, and women lusting.     But the Saturn version was the last one made and has the most story paths to play through (2 more then the FX and 1 more then PS1), is in high-resolution, and has redrawn character portraits that don't appear anywhere else.

As a crazy Langrisser fan, I have every version of each game except for the PC versions of Langrisser and Langrisser III (these were Korean releases only).  I've beaten Der Langrisser like 30 times now, but am still having a blast with it!   

[SignOfZeta]

So we all know this pic of SSS3D:

What do you think?


As for me, I want to believe it's real, but the simple fact that FX Fighter had to be FMV makes me skeptical.

Its probably real since if it were faked it would look better. However it was probably a non-playable graphic demo that ran at 4 fps or so, like many 3D trade show demos were at the time.

I'm sure some people, like NEC themselves, and probably Hudson, tried to get some 3D going on the FX, and it just proved to be impractical. The PC-FX just...it just sucks. Even the 2D on the FX is pretty unimpressive, so I can't imagine it was sitting on all this untaped 3D power or whatever.

Shouldn't this just be a factual matter anyway? I mean, don't we know what chips are in the FX, and wouldn't that give us a clue to the 3D power? I mean, Sony worked really hard to get the 3D lead, and Sega...threw a ton of chips in the Saturn, so really we know what they can do, at least on paper.

Wikipedia says, "32-Bit NEC V810 RISC running at 21.5MHz, 15.5MIPS, 5-Way Superscalar". Well, that could surely do Virtua Racing Mega Drive style, or Stunt Race FX...but who wants to play that stuff?

I guess I agree that I'm glad the FX never became a 4th rate showcase for lame 3D, but I'm still disappointed that it also sucked so bad for everything else you can name. The FX is even more of a disappointment to me than that N64 was, and that's saying something. The 64 did manage 3 or 4 good games though, so its light-years beyond the FX.

[GUTS]

The PCFX has some good games, they're just all $100+ other than Boundary Gate (which totally rules).

[nat]

GUTS is right...

I can't agree that the PC-FX "totally sucked." It was a system that took a different approach to the "32-bit era" and it ended up not taking off. There are a few real gems as far as software goes and I have a lot of fun with mine.

Which reminds me, I've had Boundary Gate sitting here for like 8 months and I haven't started it yet.

[Kitsunexus]

I've never played a single PC-FX game, but from what I've read, I love the entire PC-FX library. 

[Keranu]

Its probably real since if it were faked it would look better. However it was probably a non-playable graphic demo that ran at 4 fps or so, like many 3D trade show demos were at the time.

Not necessarily. It could've still been faked to make it look like it was powerful enough just to handle some simple polygons just like Silpheed for Sega CD or Sapphire for PCE.

[nat]

Shouldn't this just be a factual matter anyway? I mean, don't we know what chips are in the FX, and wouldn't that give us a clue to the 3D power? I mean, Sony worked really hard to get the 3D lead, and Sega...threw a ton of chips in the Saturn, so really we know what they can do, at least on paper.

The production PC-FX has no 3D graphics chip. Read: it does not support polygons through hardware. And you're right, this is simply the fact of the matter. This doesn't mean there aren't some games that do pre-rendered stuff like Sapphire, though. Team Innocent has lots of pre-rendered 3D stuff, for example, and it all looks really nice.

The prototype boards included a 3D chip that could do polygons on a lesser scale than the Saturn and Playstation (One). Why they removed it for the production run is anyone's guess. Maybe they figured the polygon support the chip offered was too poor to compete.

What's interesting is that these chips were never removed from the development kits. These kits consist of an ISA board compatible with older DOS/Windows computers that is essentially an exact duplicate of the PC-FX. Except they still include the 3D GPU.

There is another recent thread here where one of our members talks about this ISA card (he apparently has one) and how it works. Apparently there is a PC-FX game out there that actually uses polygons thru the 3D processor. The game is only playable on a computer that has the PC-FXGA card since the actual console lacks the 3D chip.

For anyone that missed the original thread, he was nice enough to make a video of the game for anyone interested:

[Ceti Alpha]

Hi all! I'm new to these forums, though I've been coming to this site for quite some time now. 

But in regards to the polygon graphics, I've read (I forget exactly where...some Turbo site) that the HuCard game Falcon used, quite minimally mind you, polygon graphics. I actually had that game for the TG 16 back in the day. It wasn't actually that bad of a flight simulator and I remember being quite impressed with the "different" type of graphics for the buildings and whatnot.

Just saw this and wondered if Falcon (never seen Gunboat) could be considered a VERY primitive polygon game.

Peace

[Kitsunexus]

I know Falcon on the PC is really using polygons, but I would imagine that the TG-16 is faking it. I would be VERY SURPRISED if it was using polgyons.

Now the PC-FX with the 3D chip could EASILY do Falcon 1.0...

[nat]

I know Falcon on the PC is really using polygons, but I would imagine that the TG-16 is faking it. I would be VERY SURPRISED if it was using polgyons.

Strap yourself in, then, because the polygons on the TurboGrafx version are quite real.

Any system can do polygons, really, but they eat up all your CPU cycles unless you have a specialized chip handling them.

[Keranu]

Hi all! I'm new to these forums, though I've been coming to this site for quite some time now. 

But in regards to the polygon graphics, I've read (I forget exactly where...some Turbo site) that the HuCard game Falcon used, quite minimally mind you, polygon graphics. I actually had that game for the TG 16 back in the day. It wasn't actually that bad of a flight simulator and I remember being quite impressed with the "different" type of graphics for the buildings and whatnot.

Just saw this and wondered if Falcon (never seen Gunboat) could be considered a VERY primitive polygon game.

Peace

Welcome aboard and that's a nice starting post you got there! I also love your avatar and signature .

Yes Falcon and Gunboat used real polygons (well I assume Gunboat did too) and it's certainly believeable because of how slow those games run. I think the polygons look really cool myself, but never was able to get into those games.

[SignOfZeta]

I know Falcon on the PC is really using polygons, but I would imagine that the TG-16 is faking it. I would be VERY SURPRISED if it was using polgyons.

Now the PC-FX with the 3D chip could EASILY do Falcon 1.0...

I'm not sure why you would say that. Super low frame rate 3D was really common back then, especially on computers, but the TG-16 is just as powerful as the consoles from around that time. Not just DOS, but Amiga stuff like Falcon, Club Drive, Race Drivin', and Mac stuff like that one sub game, or Falcon. I first played Falcon on a Mac SE, and I think it would have run on a Mac Plus, which had a 8mhz chip so...pretty much anything remotely capable could do Falcon.

Even the Master System version of Falcon uses some polygons, and it predates the computer versions by a couple of years.

[Kitsunexus]

Wow. 

The Turbo goes up a notch in my book.

[TurboXray]

 I just realized the "base" PC-FX has hardware assist for flat shaded polygons like the 32x has. I wonder why they never used it for such.

[Keranu]

Interesting!

[nat]

I just realized the "base" PC-FX has hardware assist for flat shaded polygons like the 32x has. I wonder why they never used it for such.

How did you come to this realization?

[TurboXray]

 Because I was looking over detailed tech specs for the 32x last week and talking with Charles MacDonald, he said the RLE mode of the 32x was used for flat shaded polygon acceleration . Basically a run of X pixels save cycle times instead of just plotting each pixel. It's hardware RLE bitmap decompression and the 32x used this. The PC-FX also has hardware RLE bitmap decompression for one of it's many layers.