Turok Rage Wars

[PolygonDaily]

I know there's a lot of animosity towards the Price hikes on games/consoles, etc.

I'd like to hear from you guys, what do you guys think about the situation with Turok Rage Wars for the N64. Crappy game, shitty by any standard. Originally came in a black cartridge.

Turns out there was an achievement in co-op play that could not be completed in the original release, Nintendo had customers ship the game back to them, and sent them a replacement cartridge.

This Cartridge is Grey, same game, except the bug was fixed and was inserted into a Gray cart instead of the original Black cart.

The Value of this Gray Cartridge sky-rocketed after the story was made public, how does this make you guys feel? do you think it's justifiable that this particular variant is so expensive?

why, or why not?

[Nazi NecroPhile]

It's N64, so zero fucks given from me either way.

[xcrement5x]

The Nintendo community is to blame on that one, I saw the feeding frenzy on NintendoAge when that first happened, it was nuts and there was no compassion.  People were buying like dozens of copies for $12 a pop and reselling them to people who had missed this link for well over $100 each.

When you create a community of collectors and flippers first it's easy to see what happens.

[crazydean]

Doesn't make me feel anything. There are plenty of instances similar to this. Loot at Stadium Events. It's the same game as World Class Track Meet, but one is worth a couple bucks and the other is worth thousands. No one is shelling out big bucks to play these games. It's literally a decoration. If you can't think of anything better to spend hundreds of dollars on, then go for it. 

[PolygonDaily]

It's N64, so zero fucks given from me either way.

Are there any other consoles you like besides the pce/turbo? I think N64 had some decent titles...

[o.pwuaioc]

What about xcrement5x and Necromancer said. It wasn't even just NintendoAge that was gouging. But since it doesn't hold up today as a solid game, I shrugged.

[esteban]

It's N64, so zero fucks given from me either way.

Are there any other consoles you like besides the pce/turbo? I think N64 had some decent titles...

We rag on the N64 here, even I do occasionally, but of course there were some fun games. I even "like" some flawed games for it (Gemini Force or something?) ...but it is a console my younger brother owned and I was never obsessed with (I am obsessed with arcade/8-/16-bit eras).

You don't always see the rational/logical behavior of folks here. Most of us love all games, regardless of the platform.

But Jag and N64 are easy targets because there have established communities of fans for each console.

Notice that it is not any fun to bash game.com, because nobody cares about it.

Jag is superior to N64 in every way possible, by the way.

[o.pwuaioc]

Jag is inferior to N64 in every way possible, by the way.

Fixed that for you.

There is little redeeming value in the Jag. Any good game on it is found better elsewhere. The N64 has a solid collection of decent titles, though; it does 3D better than the Jaguar, it has a better controller than the Jaguar (and that's saying a lot considering the N64 controller), and the game library outstrips the Jaguar by a large margin. There is no comparion.

But we know how much you fetishize the console design, that toilet design, so go you. ;)

[esteban]

Jag is inferior to N64 in every way possible, by the way.

Fixed that for you.

There is little redeeming value in the Jag. Any good game on it is found better elsewhere. The N64 has a solid collection of decent titles, though; it does 3D better than the Jaguar, it has a better controller than the Jaguar (and that's saying a lot considering the N64 controller), and the game library outstrips the Jaguar by a large margin. There is no comparion.

But we know how much you fetishize the console design, that toilet design, so go you. ;)

Jaguar remains vastly superior to the pathetically inferior N64.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Jaguar remains vastly superior to the pathetically inferior N64.

That's like saying getting punched in the face is better than getting kicked in the balls: it's technically true but nobody really wants either.

[ClodBusted]

Is it the same for PAL rage wars?

[CrackTiger]

Jag is inferior to N64 in every way possible, by the way.

Fixed that for you.

There is little redeeming value in the Jag. Any good game on it is found better elsewhere. The N64 has a solid collection of decent titles, though; it does 3D better than the Jaguar, it has a better controller than the Jaguar (and that's saying a lot considering the N64 controller), and the game library outstrips the Jaguar by a large margin. There is no comparion.

But we know how much you fetishize the console design, that toilet design, so go you. ;)

The Jaguar may not be superior in every way, but there are still many good things about it that it has over the Nintendo 64. I can't list them all, but a few off the top of my head include:

Better controller for 2D games.

Controllers don't wear out quickly.

More buttons and support for overlays.

Better library of 2D games.

"Real" or "traditional chip sound. Not just that sample shifting stuff which only gets worse with age.

Like every other 32-bit gen console, it has a CD-ROM.

Superior video quality, including RGB output. -the poor video quality of the N64 combined with mandatory filtering really makes it hard to make things out. Which is why I recently ordered one upgraded for RGB output.

System linking ability, allowing for multiplayer games of up to 128 players.

[DeshDildo]

The only reason N64 controllers wear out compared to Jaguar controllers is because nobody played with the Jaguar controllers... ZING!

I actually purchased a 64 when they first came out over a Playstation because at the time, Wave Race, Mario and Star Wars blew me away.  Although Nintendo 64 is not one of my favorite console there are still a bunch of great games on the system.  I did end up buying a used Playstation later though because Gran Turismo 2, Resident Evil series and Metal Gear.

[o.pwuaioc]

My point wasn't that it was worthless on its own, but that in relation to everything else, it has no value. That better library of 2D games comprises either junk or inferior ports. I will give you that the controller is better for 2D games, but we're comparing turds and guano, as neither as ideal. Re: more buttons = better, I can't think of a single game on the N64 where I thought that it could use a keypad layout.

So you've come up with about 5 things the Jaguar can do better (and I can't even really give you RGB, as N64 3D looks a hundred times better than Jaguar 3D, which resembled blurry 32X graphics), but you're putting make-up on a pig at that point, while the N64 is at least an average dame.

[PukeSter]

Jaguar is crap. Sorry.

N64 isn't fantastic either, but it still has a couple handfuls of amazing games.

The Jaguar has a handful of decent games in comparison.

That said, Turok Rage Wars is just an average multiplayer game featuring bots. It's not a game to get worked up over.

[esteban]

I was trolling! I wrote my entire post about how we are open-minded, but then, for trollish fun, I purposefully bashed N64 in the final sentence.

[o.pwuaioc]

I was trolling! I wrote my entire post about how we are open-minded, but then, for trollish fun, I purposefully bashed N64 in the final sentence.

[SignOfZeta]

It's an FPS. It's a Turok FPS. It's a Turok FPS running on N64. In other words it kinda makes me wish video games were never invented.

[PCEngineHell]

Nintendo 64. Meh.

[BigusSchmuck]

Alien Vs Predator for the Jaguar is better.

[ClodBusted]

My opinion on Turok.
To me, Dinosaur Hunter impressed me back in the day with its large well-constructed levels. A single level took me hours or days to complete on the first playthrough. I found the enemies well-designed, especially all the dinosaurs. I love dinos! Who doesn't? The graphics were nice enough for my taste, so the fog didn't bothered me too much in contrast to other N64 games - I just imagined this would be fitting to the atmosphere of jungle swamps. The weapons were fine too, I liked the mix of realistic and alien guns.

Turok 2 didn't interested me that much. I didn't liked the enemy designs.

Rage Wars just wasn't Turok anymore.

[Opethian]

N64 had terrible draw distance on turok games.  I played 1and 2 on PC and it was a mediocre FPS game.

[ClodBusted]

I tried 1 and 2 on PC once. The mouse controls in both games were pretty broken, they felt very laggy. These aren't good ports, especially Turok 1 controls so much better on N64. Too bad, so many other FPS at that time had perfect mouse controls on PC, e.g. Quake II.

[PukeSter]

1 is so confusing in the later levels. And I just couldn't take the damn fog anymore.

I heard Turok 2 is much better but you should play it on PC.

[ClodBusted]

Dinosaur Hunter's level design is challenging in that it isn't truly linear in later stages. I understand that especially level 5, the catacombs, can be mazelike at first, but to me this is just part of the fun.

On every play through I find new secret rooms and hidden items. And every cave filled with bugs and leapers still scares the shit out of me.

EDIT' Hell, I even dig the jumping from platform to platform, since it feels just right. For aimless pussies, there's always the Automap that even helps with platforming.

[bartre]

on topic:
it's the same shit that happens any time there's something of "unknown rarity"
i got one of those grey carts, got kinda lucky with it.
somebody was trying to pawn one off on CL, tagged it at $100
i emailed him, "give ya $50"
he laughs
bout a month later, posts it at $90, i offer $50, he laughs.
rinse and repeat a few times, I eventually get it for $50 after about 3 months.

off topic:
y'all can blow me. N64 is fun.

off/on topic:
turok 1 and 2 are great, but rage wars and 3 blow chunks.

[SephirothTNH]

My opinion on Turok.
To me, Dinosaur Hunter impressed me back in the day with its large well-constructed levels. A single level took me hours or days to complete on the first playthrough. I found the enemies well-designed, especially all the dinosaurs. I love dinos! Who doesn't? The graphics were nice enough for my taste, so the fog didn't bothered me too much in contrast to other N64 games - I just imagined this would be fitting to the atmosphere of jungle swamps. The weapons were fine too, I liked the mix of realistic and alien guns.

Turok 2 didn't interested me that much. I didn't liked the enemy designs.

Rage Wars just wasn't Turok anymore.

My feelings exactly.  For it's time it was a great game.  It just hasn't aged well.  And if you were already familiar with PC FPS games it was probably a let down.  But coming from the likes of SNES Wolfenstein and Doom it was pretty impressive.

[SignOfZeta]

The graphics were nice enough for my taste, so the fog didn't bothered me too much in contrast to other N64 games

Ok, I call bullshit here. Wasn't Turok 1 famous for being the most ridiculously foggy N64 game that had been released at that time? I'm pretty sure it was. So it's not as foggy as other games but it's also the foggiest game.

I think maybe you were just a 9 year old that liked dinosaurs and would play any old crap. That's fine...when you are nine. It's grown up time now.

[esteban]

We have PCEFX RAGE WARS.

2015.

[crazydean]

I think maybe you were just a 9 year old that liked dinosaurs and would play any old crap. That's fine...when you are nine. It's grown up time now.

What 9 year old doesn't like dinosaurs? And you get to blow them up, too? It's badass, man.

The game hasn't aged well, though. Of course, neither has Goldeneye...or really any older FPS. The N64 was a segue into 3D gaming. Love it or hate it, it was a necessary link between where we were and where we are.

[SignOfZeta]

I think maybe you were just a 9 year old that liked dinosaurs and would play any old crap. That's fine...when you are nine. It's grown up time now.

What 9 year old doesn't like dinosaurs?

I'm sure there are some. I'm sure there some 9 year olds that like dinosaurs too much to blow them up. It doesn't matter. My point is that you aren't 9 anymore. It's OK to admit this flash-in-the-pan shit sucked. I liked Night Rider when I was 9. I'm not going to pretend it isn't an extremely bad TV show.

[esteban]

I think maybe you were just a 9 year old that liked dinosaurs and would play any old crap. That's fine...when you are nine. It's grown up time now.

What 9 year old doesn't like dinosaurs?

I'm sure there are some. I'm sure there some 9 year olds that like dinosaurs too much to blow them up. It doesn't matter. My point is that you aren't 9 anymore. It's OK to admit this flash-in-the-pan shit sucked. I liked Night Rider when I was 9. I'm not going to pretend it isn't an extremely bad TV show.

Remember the Night Rider when you look up at the night sky, bitch.

Turok can be his guilty pleasure, just as Full House and Doraemon can be yours.

[SignOfZeta]

There are no guilty pleasures, only pleasures.

[ClodBusted]

I was 12 years old at the time, I grew up with the FPS scenes from SNES Jurassic Park and I am not ashamed to say that I still like dinos a lot.

Since Doom, Duke 3D and Quake weren't accessible for minors were I live, the first time I played through them was in 2002. I liked them. And even after getting exposed to modern FPS stuff, I think Turok 1 stood the test of time better than some other home console FPS games (think of all the bad aged Goldeneye rip-offs) and even some PC FPS of its time. So to me, Turok 1 has the same old school appeal as Quake and Duke 3D: Run, kill, explore.

I could talk about Turok Dinosaur Hunter all day without feeling embarrassed, but I understand that this game isn't everybodies taste, which is of course all right. I guess Zeta is still mad at me that I didn't dig Grave of the Fireflies?

[wildfruit]

I remember getting Turok back when I had N64. Played it once. So unimpressed. Turok the fog hunter. I gave it away shortly after that.
N64 was biggest, muddy, washed out disappointment of my life.

[GreatBlue Swirlof99]

I remember getting Turok back when I had N64. Played it once. So unimpressed. Turok the fog hunter. I gave it away shortly after that.
N64 was biggest, muddy, washed out disappointment of my life.

Wow this is probably the N64 hate club , I had Turok 2 and liked it and was like "wow this looks nice and better than PS (I hated the PS and still do ! ) "!
Plus N64 was probably the nicest console of that generation, I mean just look at the FULL 3D of SM64 and Zelda OoT! Nothing the PS had really did that and the Saturn (I'm a SEGA fan so I don't hate Saturn but still saturn didn't have the power of the N64). Another thing that controller so great to use!

[wildfruit]

I remember getting Turok back when I had N64. Played it once. So unimpressed. Turok the fog hunter. I gave it away shortly after that.
N64 was biggest, muddy, washed out disappointment of my life.

Wow this is probably the N64 hate club , I had Turok 2 and liked it and was like "wow this looks nice and better than PS (I hated the PS and still do ! ) "!
Plus N64 was probably the nicest console of that generation, I mean just look at the FULL 3D of SM64 and Zelda OoT! Nothing the PS had really did that and the Saturn (I'm a SEGA fan so I don't hate Saturn but still saturn didn't have the power of the N64). Another thing that controller so great to use!

Yea but Mario 64 for DS and OOT for 3DS so much better. I agree I enjoyed them at the time but still was mostly a useless console.

[esteban]

Nintendo's first party games are tmreason enough  to enjoy  N64. Only a meanie would say otherwise.

CHANGE TITLE OF THREAD TO "N64 HATE CLUB" as someone already mentioned....

[PolygonDaily]

I agree the library is nothing to be proud of, but i did enjoy the following:

Multiplayer:
Goldeneye 007
the early WCW games
Mario Party
Mario Kart 64

SinglePlayer:
Ocarina of Time (never played Majora's Mask but hear it's good)
Mario 64
Conker's Bad Fur Day (great Humor and very original, but that's about it)
Banjo Kazooie

What i didn't understand was the popularity of Super Smash Bros, it was fun for 15-30 minutes, but people still go nuts over it.

but anyway, back to the original topic. What's up with people paying so much for Not For Resale demos, and Cart Variants? I own the Turok Gray cartridge and never knew it was a variant, picked it up at a garage sale a while back along with some other games, i think i almost sold it for like $6 haha.

I see people pay double/triple if not more for NFS carts, i'll never understand that...

[xcrement5x]

I agree the library is nothing to be proud of, but i did enjoy the following:

Multiplayer:
Goldeneye 007
the early WCW games
Mario Party
Mario Kart 64

SinglePlayer:
Ocarina of Time (never played Majora's Mask but hear it's good)
Mario 64
Conker's Bad Fur Day (great Humor and very original, but that's about it)
Banjo Kazooie

What i didn't understand was the popularity of Super Smash Bros, it was fun for 15-30 minutes, but people still go nuts over it.

but anyway, back to the original topic. What's up with people paying so much for Not For Resale demos, and Cart Variants? I own the Turok Gray cartridge and never knew it was a variant, picked it up at a garage sale a while back along with some other games, i think i almost sold it for like $6 haha.

I see people pay double/triple if not more for NFS carts, i'll never understand that...

Variant hunting in general is its own unique type of sickness.  I can hardly say I am immune though as I love Working Designs and like a ton of their notoriety was built upon the premise of disc variants.  I will say that when you really like a system and have found all the games you want for it, variants are a fun way to keep the hunt going. 

[CrackTiger]

I remember getting Turok back when I had N64. Played it once. So unimpressed. Turok the fog hunter. I gave it away shortly after that.
N64 was biggest, muddy, washed out disappointment of my life.

Wow this is probably the N64 hate club , I had Turok 2 and liked it and was like "wow this looks nice and better than PS (I hated the PS and still do ! ) "!
Plus N64 was probably the nicest console of that generation, I mean just look at the FULL 3D of SM64 and Zelda OoT! Nothing the PS had really did that and the Saturn (I'm a SEGA fan so I don't hate Saturn but still saturn didn't have the power of the N64). Another thing that controller so great to use!

I got an N64 at launch and rented or traded for Turok as soon as it came out. It was one of the most disappointing games I've ever played, as magazines had hyped it so much. At the time, it didn't feel like it had 3D environments, it felt like you were standing on a small swatch of floor and occasionally a swatch of wall would faded into view, as did objects once they got close. The developer wasn't ready to pull off the game on N64 and it shoulsn't have been released as-is. One of the future Turoks has nice 3D, I don't remember the name.

I like the N64, even though it has one of my least favorite libraries. The Saturn and PSX have lots of 3D visuals you won't find on N64 as well. Particulary there is much more variety of balances of 3D elements, artwork and types of games in general.

But having some of the better 3D in the worst generation with 3D as a standard feature isn't much to brag about. Especially when it happens to also be one the last generation with such a strong 2D library. Nothing on the N64 could compete with dozens (hundreds?) of great 2D games found on PSX/Saturn.

It was especially disappointing coming right after the SNES.

I'm always surprised when people in 8/16-bit forums discount 2D altogether and put so much value on 32-bit gen 3D. Somehow it's always while hyping the N64 library.

[SignOfZeta]

I was 12 years old at the time, I grew up with the FPS scenes from SNES Jurassic Park and I am not ashamed to say that I still like dinos a lot.

Since Doom, Duke 3D and Quake weren't accessible for minors were I live, the first time I played through them was in 2002. I liked them. And even after getting exposed to modern FPS stuff, I think Turok 1 stood the test of time better than some other home console FPS games (think of all the bad aged Goldeneye rip-offs) and even some PC FPS of its time. So to me, Turok 1 has the same old school appeal as Quake and Duke 3D: Run, kill, explore.

I could talk about Turok Dinosaur Hunter all day without feeling embarrassed, but I understand that this game isn't everybodies taste, which is of course all right. I guess Zeta is still mad at me that I didn't dig Grave of the Fireflies?

What was your favorite movie when you were 12? Your favorite album? What was your idea of great sex when you were 12? What was your idea of the perfect day back then?

I don't want the answers to any of those questions. (Nobody does.) My point was that...hopefully none of that stuff is still your favorite because even if you haven't matured one iota, one would hope to god that in roughy 20 years since then, more than half a lifetime ago, you would have seen and experienced so many more cool things that you would hopefully not even remember WTF "Turok Dinosaur Hunter" even was.

We all know the game was popular and everyone bought it (even I did, there wasn't shit to play on N64 so I had to try everything). Just looking at period magazine covers will tell us that. It isn't a good game. It isn't even an OK game. It's terrible. It also cost $80.

Just because you like something when you were 12 doesn't mean you have to defend it to everyone forever. You can actually allow yourself to use your adult brain to judge the quality of the game. You can allow yourself to not like it. Just because there were FPS that were even shittier than Turok doesn't make Turok good. That's not now shit works. There are a million pachinko games out there, many much better than others, but all of them suck.

And please, none of this straw man horseshit. Liking dinosaurs is fine. Everyone loves dinosaurs. There are thousands of scientists all over the world that have devoted their lives to the study of dinosaurs and nobody disparages them for it (unless they also like Turok, but that's highly unlikely). Dinosaurs are not the issue. Turok: Amway Salesman: Rage Wars would have been just as shitty. The issue is that YOU AREN'T 12 ANYMORE MOTHERFUCKER.

When I was 12 I liked the band Van Halen. Now I don't because I've evolved to not like shitty things and Van Halen is a very shitty thing.

Btw, as to the original question, I think this is good topic. Should the "corrected" version of a game be valued differently than the original? I think yes, but it depends on what's being corrected. Is the game more or less fun in its fixed version or its original? The game in general matters more than anything of course. If the grey Rage Wars is worth 100 times what a regular one is, then that's fine...as long as the grey one is $10 and the original is a dime.

As for the N64. Well, you know how the PC Engine was fucking awesome and the PC-FX was not only bad but it was bad at something completely different? That's pretty much the transition from SNES to N64. Everything that was good about the SNES was thrown in the trash so we could have foggy polygonal bullshit. What's nice is that Nintendo has since realized that sometimes we like 2D and sometimes we like 3D. Now they feel free to go whichever direction works best for the game itself instead of trying to figure out how to shove something with Yoshi in it into a foggy hellscape and still make it fun.

[esteban]

Van Halen is a guilty pleasure for hipsters.

Zeta's guilty pleasure is Jet Force Gemini. I admitted earlier that I had fun playing it, and still do. Sometimes.

Zeta: I did enjoy the SNES --> N64 compared to PCE --> PC-FX comparison

[SignOfZeta]

Wait...you have 17,000 posts?

[esteban]

Wait...you have 17,000 posts?

For the last ? years I've been posting from phone/tablet, so I have no idea what my post count is (the app doesn't include it? Or, it does— but I haven't seen it?)

[ClodBusted]

Wow Zeta, again TL ; DR. Make your posts shorter so I'd bother reading them again. Long posts imply timewasting rants to me.

[esteban]

Wow Zeta, again TL ; DR. Make your posts shorter so I'd bother reading them again. Long posts imply timewasting rants to me.

ON ZETA
Except that you should always read what Zeta writes.

His rants are the rants of a connoisseur, not of a dullard. Nor of an imbecile. Nor of a hipster.

And, honestly, even when he is having fun and just in "Cathartic Rant" (CRT) mode, he can at least back up his hyperbole with some reasoning. Of course, you should counter his reasoning, not his insults, because that's the most important thing.


ON "TRUTH"
Now, on this particular issue of Turok: he is arguing that it is a *categorically bad game*, whereas you are arguing otherwise.

I can't provide any support for either position, since I knew better than to play N64. Trüe Storie.



ON ELITISM
However, when he categorically dismissed Van Halen, you might have sniffed the scent of elitism (as he distanced himself from artless mainstream pop music, proclaiming to have "refined tastes"). I smell prog Rock vinyl!

Granted, this was only an analogy—but it's a start!




ON DETERMINING VALUE
Well, this might be the kernel upon which to (1941) Counter-Attack* Zeta: should the technical limitations/flaws of a game be the sole criteria for establishing its value?

The answer, of course, is HELL NO!

There are countless games that I have had tremendous fun playing playing, despite their "flaws/limitations".




ON VAN HALEN ANALOGY
Just as "tone-deaf vocals and three-chord simplicity" in a damn catchy punk rock song is *not inherently inferior* to the "theoretically amazing mathematical note progression" in a crappy, boring prog Rock song, Turok can genuinely be fun today (or when it was released), despite its perceived/real limitations.

I could go on, but some folks skip long posts. Damn them!

Of course, Turok sucks, but that doesn't mean I can't defend it.




ON FOOTNOTES
*Awesome SuperGrafx game, by the way.

** My goal was to create a long post, but also I should note that I am guilty of elitism when it comes to the arts. And video games. So, maybe I see myself in Zeta.

*** I am not a Van Halen fan.

**** I am not a prog Rock fanbois.

****** I do like some Van Halen songs, though. Damn!

******** I enjoy tons of prog Rock I listened to from my youth, but I don't really seek it out as an adult.

*********** Somewhere hidden in this forum is my guilty pleasure from eons ago: Hard Drivin' on Genesis. Even upon release, that game was "laughable", but I got my money's worth and played it and enjoyed it. I just had to learn how to adjust my sense of time to the game (forgo "real time"). I had way more fun than any objective, scientific, technical critique would allow for. I play Hard Drivin' every few years and still enjoy it.

*************** All of this is inconsequential, since Turok is a prehistoric turd that sucks.

****************** Hard Drivin' is a prehistoric turd, too, but it is superior to every game for the N64, in every way possible.


********************* I don't really hate N64, but the desire to tease wins.


ON EDITS
This post grew until it at least appeared to be longer than Zeta's post. However, I cheated with lots of spacing. Every time I visited the bathroom this morning, I edited the post.

[ClodBusted]

Nope, it's more easy to put Zeta on "ignore" than wasting time reading his troll posts. So he can happily go on posting what he want while I won't be bothered. Everybody wins!

[SignOfZeta]

I do have a lot of prog rock vinyl. Complexity or popularity aren't why Van Halen sucks. They suck because they suck. They suck because the egomaniacal lead wanker/guitarist instructs his for-hire  bassist to only play root notes in case his dumb solos happen to wander into different chords. This way you don't notice the "star" fucking up. Also, their most popular lead singer sounds like a 14 year old girl on a Sybian. The other guy is OK but so is Huey Lewis.

[wildfruit]

What's Van Halen ? Is it a cancelled 64DD game?