could we get a HU tray insert for jewel cases?

[MasonSushi]

I was wondering with all the empty shell that are made now for NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, why cant somebody design a tray that could slide into a standard jewel case that would hold a HU card in place. That way we can put an insert in the back and they should be fairly cheap. I have heard that somebody is making 3D copies, but not how reliable that is or if it is true, I know 3D printing is expensive, so maybe a tray would cost less in the end.

Just an idea that i'm sure that has been brought up before.

[mickcris]

See here
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=18661.0

[CrackTiger]

The people with the abilities to do this so far have been interested in other things. I think that jelloslug or someone said that jewel cases are too inconsistent or something.

[NecroPhile]

I've never had an existing tray not fit in a replacement jewel case, but any slight variance issues would be eliminated by buying 10k from a single supplier.  That's a lot to buy in one shot, obviously, but that's how many trays would have to be made to spread out the cost of having a mold produced for the custom tray and not have to charge $10+ for a single case.

That's a lot of garbanzos to invest, and it'd take a decade or more to sell enough to break even.

[jelloslug]

It's money.  It's five figures to tool up a mold and then you would have to buy 10,000 of them.

[HailingTheThings]

I was wondering with all the empty shell that are made now for NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, why cant somebody design a tray that could slide into a standard jewel case that would hold a HU card in place. That way we can put an insert in the back and they should be fairly cheap. I have heard that somebody is making 3D copies, but not how reliable that is or if it is true, I know 3D printing is expensive, so maybe a tray would cost less in the end.

Just an idea that i'm sure that has been brought up before.

You mean like these?



As opposed to like the black ones?

They'd be maybe a little cheaper to produce, but not much. Probably. I know nothing, though. Oops.

[OldMan]

...somebody design a tray that could slide into a standard jewel case that would hold a HU card in place. That way we can put an insert in the back and they should be fairly cheap...

Like atlantean?
Fwiw, it's ~ 5Hrs printing time. And things that big (~6"x6") tend to lift near the end.
Yeah, It's only $1 in plastic....but $35 at minimum wage to have someone monitor the printer....

(And if someone isn't watching the printer, that's when it will curl at the corners, catch the print head, and you end up with a mess....and 4+ hours wasted, usually)

[incrediblehark]

...somebody design a tray that could slide into a standard jewel case that would hold a HU card in place. That way we can put an insert in the back and they should be fairly cheap...

Like atlantean?
Fwiw, it's ~ 5Hrs printing time. And things that big (~6"x6") tend to lift near the end.
Yeah, It's only $1 in plastic....but $35 at minimum wage to have someone monitor the printer....

(And if someone isn't watching the printer, that's when it will curl at the corners, catch the print head, and you end up with a mess....and 4+ hours wasted, usually)

Makes me appreciate the AbCard release even more, that's a lot of time invested in just a case, let alone the rest of the game.

[OldMan]

Makes me appreciate the AbCard release even more, that's a lot of time invested in just a case, let alone the rest of the game.

Yes, a -ton- of time. That's a big part of why orders were so late.

[SignOfZeta]

I'm eventually going to try casting these things out of some of the newer acrylic-like resins I haven't used yet. Not the shitty old ones but the white ones found in SFII, Bomberman 94, etc. If it works it will be way cheaper than 3D printing.

Everyone is so obsessed with 3D printing, and I agree, it's pretty awesome, but it's rarely the best way to make anything you actually care about. These days they use 3D printing a lot to make parts for F1 cars, so those guys obviously have it down, up to and including metal roll structures, but keep in mind that they have unlimited money, a top team spending $100-300 million just to make two cars go in circles for 20 races a year. I work in prototype engine development (not F1, just normal people cars) so we see a lot of RP valve covers, manifolds, etc. Its really good for that, essential nowadays really, but none of these parts would make it 1/100 of the way though the standard motor vehicle warrantee period because that plastic is designed to be printed out first and formost. It's resistance to sunlight, chemicals, vibration, etc all sucks compared to the eventual production part, be it metal or plastic.

For most stuff, and on anything less than state of the art equipment, it's a fuzzy expensive fragile mess. The amateur computer geek angle is the only reason anyone in America would suddenly be interested in some sort of manufacturing. The best uses for 3D printing today are usually those which are part of a much larger (and likely traditional) production process.

For example, I like to build garage kits from Japan. Traditionally these are sculpted by hand then molds are made of the pieces and they are cast in resin. In recent years the process has changed. Now, especially with mecha kits, the parts are designed in CAD and the 3D printed. Then someone has to polish the hell out of the things so they will make decent masters and these parts are recast as resin for the actual kit you buy. Very few decent model kits/parts are coming from 3D printing. They do exist, and eventually that will be the WHOLE scene, but right now it sucks. That being the whole scene will suck too, but that's another thing...

[jelloslug]

The biggest problem currently with 3D printing is that people think they can buy a $1000 printer and make perfect parts every time.  The parts I make and sell are made on a $150,000 printer and even then they have to be sanded and dyed to look right.  There are so many different types of printers that print in totally different ways. You have to pic the method and the material based off of your final use and desired look. I have printed the HU card case several times and either it's not the quality that I would be comfortable selling or it costs way too much to print.

[MasonSushi]

I was wondering with all the empty shell that are made now for NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, why cant somebody design a tray that could slide into a standard jewel case that would hold a HU card in place. That way we can put an insert in the back and they should be fairly cheap. I have heard that somebody is making 3D copies, but not how reliable that is or if it is true, I know 3D printing is expensive, so maybe a tray would cost less in the end.

Just an idea that i'm sure that has been brought up before.

You mean like these?



As opposed to like the black ones?

They'd be maybe a little cheaper to produce, but not much. Probably. I know nothing, though. Oops.

Similar, but with out the pegs. Just the outline of the HU card to keep it from sliding around. I know molds are expensive, but I figured that it might not be so expensive that it couldn't be done. I think paying $2 for a tray insert is fine. Its just hard for me to pay out $8 or more for a replacement case. I am sure they are expensive to produce with 3D printing, but when I can go out and buy a chump game for that same price, get the case and then have trade material with the unwanted game,  its just hard for me to justify. I am sure many think the new cases are cool, I am just wondering if there is a chance on finding a cheaper alternative. That's all. I am not meaning to anger people.

[jelloslug]

I was wondering with all the empty shell that are made now for NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, why cant somebody design a tray that could slide into a standard jewel case that would hold a HU card in place. That way we can put an insert in the back and they should be fairly cheap. I have heard that somebody is making 3D copies, but not how reliable that is or if it is true, I know 3D printing is expensive, so maybe a tray would cost less in the end.

Just an idea that i'm sure that has been brought up before.

You mean like these?



As opposed to like the black ones?

They'd be maybe a little cheaper to produce, but not much. Probably. I know nothing, though. Oops.

Similar, but with out the pegs. Just the outline of the HU card to keep it from sliding around. I know molds are expensive, but I figured that it might not be so expensive that it couldn't be done. I think paying $2 for a tray insert is fine. Its just hard for me to pay out $8 or more for a replacement case. I am sure they are expensive to produce with 3D printing, but when I can go out and buy a chump game for that same price, get the case and then have trade material with the unwanted game,  its just hard for me to justify. I am sure many think the new cases are cool, I am just wondering if there is a chance on finding a cheaper alternative. That's all. I am not meaning to anger people.

I have gone so far as to model the case and had it formally quoted from several injection molding vendors. From the cheapest place located in the US (with Chinese molds) I would have to buy 10,000 cases up front and then sell them all at $4.32 each just to break even.

[xcrement5x]

Yeah, really the best bet for getting something like these made at a low cost is having people that are willing to work on the project for free or a heavily discounted cost.  Like, if you owned/worked at a manufacturing gig you could cut costs a lot, but mainly because you wouldn't be paying yourself.

Don't get me going on the research I did into making SegaCD longboxes, it was just incredibly disheartening. 

[IvanBeavkov]

I have gone so far as to model the case and had it formally quoted from several injection molding vendors. From the cheapest place located in the US (with Chinese molds) I would have to buy 10,000 cases up front and then sell them all at $4.32 each just to break even.

Would the model you made be able to be used with a CNC milling machine to make a mold?

I don't know if any of you have heard of this place http://www.techshop.ws/. They have 10 locations across the US and for a small membership fee they give you access to lots of manufacturing tools, like milling machines and injection molders. They are open 24/7, except for a couple holidays. They also have training classes to learn how to use the various machines. This would be a much more hands on approach but probably cheaper.

Since I found out about this place I have been wanting to go there and see if this actual project is possible, but free time is not a thing I have much of.

A friend of mine bought this kickstarted board game Railroads that was made at the local techshop:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/337635364/railroads-a-boutique-wooden-board-game

Since it was made locally my friend when there to pick up his copy and the guy gave my friend a tour of the techshop, since the guy also works there. My friend said the place was awesome and he needed to come up with some projects to do so he could play with the tools.

So does anyone think this could be a viable process to make some insert trays?

[jelloslug]

I have gone so far as to model the case and had it formally quoted from several injection molding vendors. From the cheapest place located in the US (with Chinese molds) I would have to buy 10,000 cases up front and then sell them all at $4.32 each just to break even.

Would the model you made be able to be used with a CNC milling machine to make a mold?

I don't know if any of you have heard of this place http://www.techshop.ws/. They have 10 locations across the US and for a small membership fee they give you access to lots of manufacturing tools, like milling machines and injection molders. They are open 24/7, except for a couple holidays. They also have training classes to learn how to use the various machines. This would be a much more hands on approach but probably cheaper.

Since I found out about this place I have been wanting to go there and see if this actual project is possible, but free time is not a thing I have much of.

A friend of mine bought this kickstarted board game Railroads that was made at the local techshop:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/337635364/railroads-a-boutique-wooden-board-game

Since it was made locally my friend when there to pick up his copy and the guy gave my friend a tour of the techshop, since the guy also works there. My friend said the place was awesome and he needed to come up with some projects to do so he could play with the tools.

So does anyone think this could be a viable process to make some insert trays?

Machining the mold is not really the problem, I could machine it here at work. I don't have an injection molding machine nor the skills to make the mold correctly so that the plastic flows properly in all the cavities.

[IvanBeavkov]

I have gone so far as to model the case and had it formally quoted from several injection molding vendors. From the cheapest place located in the US (with Chinese molds) I would have to buy 10,000 cases up front and then sell them all at $4.32 each just to break even.

Would the model you made be able to be used with a CNC milling machine to make a mold?

I don't know if any of you have heard of this place http://www.techshop.ws/. They have 10 locations across the US and for a small membership fee they give you access to lots of manufacturing tools, like milling machines and injection molders. They are open 24/7, except for a couple holidays. They also have training classes to learn how to use the various machines. This would be a much more hands on approach but probably cheaper.

Since I found out about this place I have been wanting to go there and see if this actual project is possible, but free time is not a thing I have much of.

A friend of mine bought this kickstarted board game Railroads that was made at the local techshop:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/337635364/railroads-a-boutique-wooden-board-game

Since it was made locally my friend when there to pick up his copy and the guy gave my friend a tour of the techshop, since the guy also works there. My friend said the place was awesome and he needed to come up with some projects to do so he could play with the tools.

So does anyone think this could be a viable process to make some insert trays?

Machining the mold is not really the problem, I could machine it here at work. I don't have an injection molding machine nor the skills to make the mold correctly so that the plastic flows properly in all the cavities.

Techshop might be a solution then. Just out of curiosity I looked at their classes and they have one for injection molding which teaches you how to set up your own mold use the machine.

[SignOfZeta]

I have no hard data to prove this, but sometimes I think the PCEFX ghetto brotherhood sells itself short when it comes to judging the potential viability of projects. I realize making these from ABS or styrene can be expensive, I also know it can be cheap because there are literally tens of millions of products out there that are made in the exact same way and they cost pennies. Cheap toys, kitchen gadgets, rulers, interior car trim panels, assloads of shit. And no, don't think they sold 800,000 units in all these cases to get the price that low. I'm not saying I have any idea how to do IP cheaper, I'm iuat saying that I know it *is* being done cheaper on a massive massive scale, as in entire container loads of shit is on its way from Taiwan right now that was made just like this and it's made at MSRP.

[jelloslug]

I have no hard data to prove this, but sometimes I think the PCEFX ghetto brotherhood sells itself short when it comes to judging the potential viability of projects. I realize making these from ABS or styrene can be expensive, I also know it can be cheap because there are literally tens of millions of products out there that are made in the exact same way and they cost pennies. Cheap toys, kitchen gadgets, rulers, interior car trim panels, assloads of shit. And no, don't think they sold 800,000 units in all these cases to get the price that low. I'm not saying I have any idea how to do IP cheaper, I'm iuat saying that I know it *is* being done cheaper on a massive massive scale, as in entire container loads of shit is on its way from Taiwan right now that was made just like this and it's made at MSRP.

The problem is quality. Sure, I could have the back case made in China out of some kind of random plastic but I would not even know the quality of the product until I had 10,000 of them on my door step. I have experience with having parts made in China/Southeast Asia and it is really a crap shoot.  Even in China having an injection mold made for a part the size of a back case or case insert is several thousand dollars and that is going to be an aluminum mold with a crappy surface finish that might last though a 10,000 part run. I feel that the only way a project of this caliber is going to go anywhere is to do a kickstarter and have people put their money were their mouth is.

[SignOfZeta]

I'm not talking about cutting every single corner until you arrive at total garbage. Like I said, I don't understand manufacturing realities beyond my own tiny place in the world. I just know that extremely inexpensive decent quality plastic shit is all over the place. I can buy a USB mouse for $10 that not only has a case construction more or less the same as what you'd want from a HuCARD tray, but also a shitload of electronics, a cable, some logo, etc and, aparently, some sort of profit margin built in. A typical $20,000 car has easily several thousand IP components. If they all cost what was quoted for HuCARD trays then the same car would be half a million bucks. Ever been to Harbor Freight? All that stuff was made at a profit and it costs almost nothing. Do you think the local law firm is paying $50 a piece for those promotional snow scrapers with their name on them? Of course not, because a snow scraper only costs $8 retail.

I think there is a way to do it with IP within reason and I have no idea how, but I'm sure it wil be done, probably soon, and probably by some other group, like the people that seem to make things like blank NES carts, AES shock boxes, flash cart housings, and all sorts of shit like that.

I'm mad busy these days but I will try casting them in the next month or two.

[esteban]

I'm not talking about cutting every single corner until you arrive at total garbage. Like I said, I don't understand manufacturing realities beyond my own tiny place in the world. I just know that extremely inexpensive decent quality plastic shit is all over the place. I can buy a USB mouse for $10 that not only has a case construction more or less the same as what you'd want from a HuCARD tray, but also a shitload of electronics, a cable, some logo, etc and, aparently, some sort of profit margin built in. A typical $20,000 car has easily several thousand IP components. If they all cost what was quoted for HuCARD trays then the same car would be half a million bucks. Ever been to Harbor Freight? All that stuff was made at a profit and it costs almost nothing. Do you think the local law firm is paying $50 a piece for those promotional snow scrapers with their name on them? Of course not, because a snow scraper only costs $8 retail.

I think there is a way to do it with IP within reason and I have no idea how, but I'm sure it wil be done, probably soon, and probably by some other group, like the people that seem to make things like blank NES carts, AES shock boxes, flash cart housings, and all sorts of shit like that.

I'm mad busy these days but I will try casting them in the next month or two.

All of the items you mentioned are produced at ridiculous economies of scale and are, for all intents and purposes, very generic items that have been refined and commoditized for decades. There is a known market, for decades, for computer mice and windshield scrapers (assuming you live in a climate cold enough). I was surprised you didn't mention ballpoint pens, plastic water bottles and combs.

I think you take for granted that a lot of the early design and revision (iterative process occurring with each successive manufacturing run) for generic goods were accomplished decades ago.

You can't compare generic, universal items produced in the millions with quirky little HuCARD trays...

Also, what relationships do any of us have with manufacturers/suppliers to negotiate better prices? We face the same problem with shipping/freighting charges...

What possible leverage could we have when we want an absurdly small run of mere thousands (10,000)...which is a nuisance?

Where are all of these items going to be stored for the next decade or two (assuming they aren't defective and unsellable)?

This is assuming that we get really lucky and the first batch is pretty much a perfect design, with materials that prove durable and aesthetically pleasing for a long period of time, and manufactured to exacting size specifications  (tray covers are not too tight, not too loose, swing freely, and hold manual firmly).

Also, hopefully, the item won't smell like formaldehyde for the next 25 years.

[lions3]

Sorry, if i'm a little late to this discussion. Also sorry if I repeat what others have said above. I read most of the first page and then started skimming.

I have two 3d printers I build plus I go to a TechShop once a month or so to laser cut.

For the tray inserts, I see a few different options (none perfect to original).

• One you CAD a version of the tray and just print away on a 3d printer (as someone is already doing in different thread)
• Take that 3d printed model and clean it up and make a silicone mold (or a bazillion molds if you want to scale up). This youtube video shows the same process done to make a Fallout4 Nuka Cola bottle in resin (
  Course if you're making a mold, why not take an original Hucard tray and make a silicone mold with that instead.
• The best way to mass produce would be an injection mold, but it's expensive and you need the machinery. Yes, you could use a Techshop. (I sat across from their injection molding machine earlier this week). The problem is that I doubt you're going to sit at a techshop for hours and hours to crank them out. I doubt their machine is meant for that kind of work load even. Plus you would need to take their injection molding class. Then pay $50 for a day pass.

[xcrement5x]

Sorry, if i'm a little late to this discussion. Also sorry if I repeat what others have said above. I read most of the first page and then started skimming.

I have two 3d printers I build plus I go to a TechShop once a month or so to laser cut.

For the tray inserts, I see a few different options (none perfect to original).

• One you CAD a version of the tray and just print away on a 3d printer (as someone is already doing in different thread)
• Take that 3d printed model and clean it up and make a silicone mold (or a bazillion molds if you want to scale up). This youtube video shows the same process done to make a Fallout4 Nuka Cola bottle in resin (
  Course if you're making a mold, why not take an original Hucard tray and make a silicone mold with that instead.
• The best way to mass produce would be an injection mold, but it's expensive and you need the machinery. Yes, you could use a Techshop. (I sat across from their injection molding machine earlier this week). The problem is that I doubt you're going to sit at a techshop for hours and hours to crank them out. I doubt their machine is meant for that kind of work load even. Plus you would need to take their injection molding class. Then pay $50 for a day pass.

That video was fun to watch, thanks for sharing!

[Arkhan Asylum]

I was wondering with all the empty shell that are made now for NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, why cant somebody design a tray that could slide into a standard jewel case that would hold a HU card in place. That way we can put an insert in the back and they should be fairly cheap. I have heard that somebody is making 3D copies, but not how reliable that is or if it is true, I know 3D printing is expensive, so maybe a tray would cost less in the end.

Just an idea that i'm sure that has been brought up before.

You mean like the ones we made for Atlantean?  lol


They take forever to print, and come out sort of inconsistent.

and sometimes the printer just takes a shit and doesn't go well.

They're time consuming.

[lions3]

I've been reading up on resin casting... I'm starting to think that's probably the best bet. It's just the hassle of materials and setup. off to do more research..