PC Engine & parallax scrolling...

[Artabasdos]

I know the PCE can't do parallax in hardware, but after watching gameplay footage of Air Zonk, I was pretty damn impressed. Looks as good as something like Sonic 2 on Megadrive!

[Digi.k]

Can find a few more examples here

pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=21528.0

[Artabasdos]

Can find a few more examples here

pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=21528.0

Some of those are pretty decent too!

[CrackTiger]

I know the PCE can't do parallax in hardware, but after watching gameplay footage of Air Zonk, I was pretty damn impressed. Looks as good as something like Sonic 2 on Megadrive!

"Hardware parallax" is just a myth perpetuated by magazines bitd, which is why there were so many games with parallax before the 16-bit generation:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?31616-Master-System-games-with-parallax-scrolling/page3

[Artabasdos]

I know the PCE can't do parallax in hardware, but after watching gameplay footage of Air Zonk, I was pretty damn impressed. Looks as good as something like Sonic 2 on Megadrive!

"Hardware parallax" is just a myth perpetuated by magazines bitd, which is why there were so many games with parallax before the 16-bit generation:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?31616-Master-System-games-with-parallax-scrolling/page3

Hardware parallax referring to layers is not a myth lol.

[Digi.k]

I know the PCE can't do parallax in hardware, but after watching gameplay footage of Air Zonk, I was pretty damn impressed. Looks as good as something like Sonic 2 on Megadrive!

"Hardware parallax" is just a myth perpetuated by magazines bitd, which is why there were so many games with parallax before the 16-bit generation:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?31616-Master-System-games-with-parallax-scrolling/page3

wow those master system games are impressive

I think CrackTiger is referring to a snobbish attitude created by past videogame mags regarding hardware parallax

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Hardware parallax referring to layers is not a myth lol.

The term "hardware parallax" is meaningless, as EVERYTHING is generated by the hardware; what you mean to say is "overlapping parallax created with two (or more) independently scrolling tile based background layers".  The myth is that that's the only 'real' way of creating parallax.

The PCE hardware most certainly is capable of creating parallax, using line scrolls, sprites, animated tiles, by manipulating the far background color, or some combination thereof. 

[CrackTiger]

I know the PCE can't do parallax in hardware, but after watching gameplay footage of Air Zonk, I was pretty damn impressed. Looks as good as something like Sonic 2 on Megadrive!

"Hardware parallax" is just a myth perpetuated by magazines bitd, which is why there were so many games with parallax before the 16-bit generation:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?31616-Master-System-games-with-parallax-scrolling/page3

Hardware parallax referring to layers is not a myth lol.

It exists entirely as a concept in peoples' minds. Parallax has been around for hundreds of years and not just the fake kind seen in video games.

Multiple tile layers does not equal parallax and a tile layer isn't a giant piece of artwork. Tile layers simulate artwork by tiling together a bunch of tiny swatches. 16-bit generation consoles didn't have a user friendly operating system or app to automatically run games with sprites and backgrounds, so there was no "parallax switch" to flick on.

All video game parallax is visual trick that requires specific choreographing of assets. That why there are lots of 2600/Intellivision/Colecovision/etc games with parallax.

People took for granted things like parallax, scaling/rotation, sampled sounds, etc until game mags began pretending that they were ushered in by 16-bit consoles. Even though they had appeared in console games for generations already.

[FraGMarE]

I know the PCE can't do parallax in hardware, but after watching gameplay footage of Air Zonk, I was pretty damn impressed. Looks as good as something like Sonic 2 on Megadrive!

"Hardware parallax" is just a myth perpetuated by magazines bitd, which is why there were so many games with parallax before the 16-bit generation:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?31616-Master-System-games-with-parallax-scrolling/page3

Hardware parallax referring to layers is not a myth lol.

When people refer to hardware parallax, what they mean is built-in support for more than one scrolling background layer.  The PC-Engine most definitely does *NOT* have this support.  The Genesis, SNES and SuperGrafx all do, however.

That's not to say you couldn't achieve parallax effects by "faking" it, so to speak, with sprites/dynamic tiles/etc.  Having the extra bg layer just enables you to make parallax much more convincing and complex, and takes a lot of strain off the CPU and/or GPU.

[Pokun]

Exactly, if you define hardware like that nothing would be considered software, because the code is run by the CPU and that's also hardware.

I think that if you say "hardware parallax" it's quite clear that you mean parallax scrolling achieved using the background layers provided by the hardware. If the hardware doesn't allow more than one background, you use clever programming to achieve the same effect, and I guess that could be called software parallax.

I never understood why there's so much fuzzing about the PC Engine only having one hardware background layer though, I mean about every 8-bit console before it had only one background. The PC Engine was very powerful as it was.

[CrackTiger]

Most retro game fans express the greatest achievement of true parallax to be horizontally sliding strips. Many say that the PC Engine is only faking it, but it's still so impressive when several strips move at once. So much parallax in Genesis/SNES games is done in "software" that there's likely more with it than without.

Dual tile layers are used in many ways, intended for many different things and are not simply a "hardware parallax" feature. What they are often used for is faking large sprites for things like bosses, when the PC Engine usually uses real actual sprites. Are those fake sprites? Is that hardware support for sprites? Can tiles be sprites, even though it's being insisted that the opposite doesn't count?

The Genesis' combination of features and how everything functions, just happens to make it the easiest console of the generation to do realtine rendering. Which is why most polygonal games were on Genesis and why it's so good at scaling and rotation. If it's not exploiting a single feature meant for general use, does that mean it's not hardware support and instead is "faking" it?

The PC Engine has unique hardware features which make it better at animating fast and cycling colors, which allows all kinds of parallax and transparency effects. If consoles like these are so good at rendering effects without dedicated chips and if the effect is identical or superior to what some dedicated chips can do, how is it "fake"?

If concentrating on making the hardware fast enough to do these effects and more, along with support for giant sprites, was all because of the hardware developer's intention for them to be used for parallax.. does that make it real?

Using multiple hardware tile layers for parallax is no different than using multiple hardware sprites for parallax or a single hardware tile layer for parallax or a combination of hardware tiles and sprites for parallax. In all cases, parallax is not the dedicated function of the hardware features used and all features used are hardware supported.

The most obvious example of how ridiculous the myth of "multiple-tile-layers = hardware-parallax" is the Neo Geo, which has *ZERO* tile layers. This is most definitely *LESS* hardware support for parallax than the PC Engine, which can do all kinds of parallax using a tile later, as well as flex its sprite power for parallax, just like the Neo Geo does.

Does this make even parallax-free scenes of Neo Geo games "all fake"?

[Michirin9801]

Personally, I feel that when Parallax Scrolling is done on the PC engine I find it to be more impressive than when it's done on the Genesis or the SNES for example, and it's exactly because it only has one BG layer... I mean, it's true that they can do more complex overlapping parallax, but sometimes the parallax on the PCE is just as good (If not better) than its competitors...

For example, just look at the first stage in Magical Chase, it's got 3 overlapping layers! There's the ground which is a horizontal background strip that slides up and down, and there's sprites below it which serve as the pillars holding it, then there's the normal BG behind it, but that one is also divided, there are the clouds on top which go up and down at separate speeds as the castle wall, and then there's also a gradient behind it serving as the 3rd overlapping layer which was done with some line interruptions changing the solid colour behind the BG... That game blows my mind!

[Artabasdos]

I know the PCE can't do parallax in hardware, but after watching gameplay footage of Air Zonk, I was pretty damn impressed. Looks as good as something like Sonic 2 on Megadrive!

"Hardware parallax" is just a myth perpetuated by magazines bitd, which is why there were so many games with parallax before the 16-bit generation:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?31616-Master-System-games-with-parallax-scrolling/page3

Hardware parallax referring to layers is not a myth lol.

When people refer to hardware parallax, what they mean is built-in support for more than one scrolling background layer.  The PC-Engine most definitely does *NOT* have this support.  The Genesis, SNES and SuperGrafx all do, however.

That's not to say you couldn't achieve parallax effects by "faking" it, so to speak, with sprites/dynamic tiles/etc.  Having the extra bg layer just enables you to make parallax much more convincing and complex, and takes a lot of strain off the CPU and/or GPU.

Yeah, precisely. I even said layers!

[SignOfZeta]

I think we may have just witenessed a pivotal ideological moment here.

Since the PCE doesn't have a massive list of hardware accelerated functions like the Neo and SFC yet still produces at least as many great games, obviously one can argue that such features aren't as important as OEMs have made us think. But to claim that hardware acceleration DOES NOT EXIST is a seriously...I kinda hate to say this, but Trumpian leap of logic.

[Artabasdos]

I think we may have just witenessed a pivotal ideological moment here.

Since the PCE doesn't have a massive list of hardware accelerated functions like the Neo and SFC yet still produces at least as many great games, obviously one can argue that such features aren't as important as OEMs have made us think. But to claim that hardware acceleration DOES NOT EXIST is a seriously...I kinda hate to say this, but Trumpian leap of logic.

Duh lol. Stuff like mode 7 on SFC isn't really anything great. I don't have my PCE yet, but I doubt the games will suffer from not having multiple background layers. Even the "fake" parallax it uses looks as good as the big 2.

[SignOfZeta]

I think we may have just witenessed a pivotal ideological moment here.

Since the PCE doesn't have a massive list of hardware accelerated functions like the Neo and SFC yet still produces at least as many great games, obviously one can argue that such features aren't as important as OEMs have made us think. But to claim that hardware acceleration DOES NOT EXIST is a seriously...I kinda hate to say this, but Trumpian leap of logic.

Duh lol. Stuff like mode 7 on SFC isn't really anything great. I don't have my PCE yet, but I doubt the games will suffer from not having multiple background layers. Even the "fake" parallax it uses looks as good as the big 2.

I think this guy might be an idiot.

[Artabasdos]

I think we may have just witenessed a pivotal ideological moment here.

Since the PCE doesn't have a massive list of hardware accelerated functions like the Neo and SFC yet still produces at least as many great games, obviously one can argue that such features aren't as important as OEMs have made us think. But to claim that hardware acceleration DOES NOT EXIST is a seriously...I kinda hate to say this, but Trumpian leap of logic.

Duh lol. Stuff like mode 7 on SFC isn't really anything great. I don't have my PCE yet, but I doubt the games will suffer from not having multiple background layers. Even the "fake" parallax it uses looks as good as the big 2.

I think this guy might be an idiot.

For what reason?

[FraGMarE]

Does this make even parallax-free scenes of Neo Geo games "all fake"?

Yup.  Every last bit of the parallax on the Neo Geo is faked.  It's all sprites.  All of it.  So... yea actually, I'd say the NeoGeo uses fake parallax.  In fact, ALL of the background scrolling on the Neo Geo is faked, parallax or not.  And the reason I'd say it's faked is because it's not natively supported by the hardware.  For the exact same reason I'd say all the parallax on the PC-Engine is "faked" or "software based".

[Artabasdos]

Does this make even parallax-free scenes of Neo Geo games "all fake"?

Yup.  Every last bit of the parallax on the Neo Geo is faked.  It's all sprites.  All of it.  So... yea actually, I'd say the NeoGeo uses fake parallax.  In fact, ALL of the background scrolling on the Neo Geo is faked, parallax or not.  And the reason I'd say it's faked is because it's not natively supported by the hardware.  For the exact same reason I'd say all the parallax on the PC-Engine is "faked" or "software based".

Did not know that.

[FraGMarE]

Does this make even parallax-free scenes of Neo Geo games "all fake"?

Yup.  Every last bit of the parallax on the Neo Geo is faked.  It's all sprites.  All of it.  So... yea actually, I'd say the NeoGeo uses fake parallax.  In fact, ALL of the background scrolling on the Neo Geo is faked, parallax or not.  And the reason I'd say it's faked is because it's not natively supported by the hardware.  For the exact same reason I'd say all the parallax on the PC-Engine is "faked" or "software based".

Did not know that.

Yep, the NeoGeo supports exactly ZERO scrolling background layers.  I mean, I think you can probably put a flat color back there (like blue or black for sky or space or something like that) but you can't do an actual bg layer on the NeoGeo.  If you want scrolling backgrounds of any kind, you literally have to construct it all out of sprites

[Pokun]

I guess the big 16x16 sprites of the PC Engine and Neo Geo makes it easier to make parallax scrolling or other split-screen effects. I read somewhere that Hudson planned for two background layers first, but I guess it was already expensive as it was so they had to scrap it.

Dual tile layers are used in many ways, intended for many different things and are not simply a "hardware parallax" feature. What they are often used for is faking large sprites for things like bosses, when the PC Engine usually uses real actual sprites. Are those fake sprites? Is that hardware support for sprites? Can tiles be sprites, even though it's being insisted that the opposite doesn't count?

In colloquial terms it would probably be considered a sprite, but for "sprite" as a hardware term it's obviously not a sprite, so yeah call it "fake" or whatever.

Using multiple hardware tile layers for parallax is no different than using multiple hardware sprites for parallax or a single hardware tile layer for parallax or a combination of hardware tiles and sprites for parallax. In all cases, parallax is not the dedicated function of the hardware features used and all features used are hardware supported.

I see your point, parallax scrolling (unlike sprites and background layers) isn't a hardware feature in its own in any of these systems, and it was a thing long before multiple background layers became common and made it easy to do.
"Hardware parallax" may be a clumsy expression, although in the context I thought it was clear what Artabasdos meant.