SOTN on PC Engine

_Paul · 10/29/2017, 06:47 AM

I've been playing a bit of Castlevania: Symphony of the Night recently and wondered how the PC Engine would handle the graphics, so I did this quick test.

tinypic.com/fa0sas.png

Not too bad, it would suffer a lot from the reduced palette but I think it would certainly handle it well.

wildfruit · 10/29/2017, 10:41 AM

Looks good. Could the red carpet be a different red?

_Paul · 10/29/2017, 11:03 AM

I didn't really fine tune it so I'm sure it could be even better with a bit more effort.

SignOfZeta · 10/29/2017, 12:17 PM

I think there's a lot more to "handle" in SotN.

Digi.k · 10/29/2017, 12:20 PM

might struggle a lot with some of those fancy transparencies and 3D poly effects. Might be able to get it up and running using ARCADE card or a 4000megabit hucard

(not an accurate assumption)!

SignOfZeta · 10/29/2017, 12:54 PM

You might be able to reduce load times to where they aren't much worse than the PS version if you had the AC but it isn't going to do much else for you. The audio is going to absolutely suck by comparison, for example.

_Paul · 10/29/2017, 02:24 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 10/29/2017, 12:17 PMI think there's a lot more to "handle" in SotN.

Of course. Purely from a graphics point of view I think you could get decent results although you'd be looking at some rather harsher contrast. Looking at sprite sheets, the colour count isn't greatly out of the PCE's reach. But it's a fun experiment.

SignOfZeta · 10/29/2017, 03:49 PM

Sprite sheets don't contain FX, and that's the thing about a 32 bit machine from 1994. Not only does it do everything a SNES can do (scaling, rotation, audio FX) it has lighting FX, polygons, texture maps...not to mention 24 channels of ADPCM...kinda hard to get the mystique of SotN with only one scratchy-ass sample at a time.

You could hack Alucard's castle into Rondo, I'll give you that.

Michirin9801 · 10/29/2017, 04:40 PM

Looks fine, but I'd rather see Castlevania Rebirth on the PCE...

Arkhan Asylum · 10/30/2017, 01:37 AM

Quote from: Michirin9801 on 10/29/2017, 04:40 PMLooks fine, but I'd rather see Castlevania Rebirth on the PCE...

Putting a throwback on a vintage console is an oxymoron.

No.

Michirin9801 · 10/30/2017, 02:51 AM

Quote from: guest on 10/30/2017, 01:37 AM
Quote from: Michirin9801 on 10/29/2017, 04:40 PMLooks fine, but I'd rather see Castlevania Rebirth on the PCE...
Putting a throwback on a vintage console is an oxymoron.

No.

The point is that if it is to put another Castlevania game on the system, I'd rather it be a Classic-style one rather than a Metroidvania one...

Arkhan Asylum · 10/30/2017, 03:04 AM

you should probably say that instead next time, then, or use a better example.

like putting Bloodlines on PCE, or CV3.

Michirin9801 · 10/30/2017, 03:26 AM

Quote from: guest on 10/30/2017, 03:04 AMyou should probably say that instead next time, then, or use a better example.

like putting Bloodlines on PCE, or CV3.

Perhaps? But I love Rebirth so why not?

Arkhan Asylum · 10/30/2017, 03:28 AM

because porting a retro throwback to a vintage console is an oxymoron.

are we about to get in an infinite loop here.

Michirin9801 · 10/30/2017, 04:44 AM

Quote from: guest on 10/30/2017, 03:28 AMbecause porting a retro throwback to a vintage console is an oxymoron.

are we about to get in an infinite loop here.

Tell that to the people who want to see Shovel Knight on the NES...
But I don't see anything wrong with either...

ClodBusted · 10/30/2017, 06:50 AM

Good job on that one Screencap, Paul.

Other than that, I think the one Castlevania that the PCE got was just as good as it can get.

Super Castlevania, Bloodlines, Symphony, Rondo and Rebirth seem to me be perfect matches for each console hardware they've been released on. Super wouldn't be the same without the silly Mode 7 shenanigans and the farting SPC trumpets. Bloodlines pulls some graphical tricks out of the then aging Genesis you wouldn't expect from it. Symphony is a great amalgamation of smooth animation, rotation/scaling effects and a good soundtrack. Rebirth's fantastic Arcade Konami style synth music would be pretty hard to replicate faithfully on 90s console hardware without going for redbook audio. And talking of Rondo, you guys all know well enough how it turned out when being ported to the SNES.

Arkhan Asylum · 10/30/2017, 12:59 PM

The reflecty water stuff in Bloodlines kicks ass.

I'd like to see Simon's Quest for PCE with some slight tweaks to make it less annoying.

If you fix the text a little, tweak the heart-grinding, and maybe add some more action to the mansions, it would be great.

like, add bosses instead of just stabbing bowling balls with sticks to finish the mansion.

And make it so you can't FUCKING DIE IN THE TOWNS IF YOU FALL IN THE WATER.

That was pretty stupid of them.

exodus · 10/30/2017, 06:32 PM

Castlevania Adventure Rebirth is hard to call a throwback - it's a completely new game that uses a similar name, and some similar enemies to the GB game. It's also extremely good! So I'm not sure where this is coming from

Arkhan Asylum · 10/30/2017, 09:36 PM

How is it hard to call it a throwback?

That's literally what it is. lol

Completely new game on new platform, calling back to the old days.

Throwback.

turboswimbz · 10/30/2017, 10:14 PM

spenoza · 10/30/2017, 10:32 PM

They are retro. They adhere to an aesthetic from the past.

Windcharger · 11/01/2017, 07:58 AM

Quote from: guest on 10/29/2017, 02:24 PMOf course. Purely from a graphics point of view I think you could get decent results although you'd be looking at some rather harsher contrast. Looking at sprite sheets, the colour count isn't greatly out of the PCE's reach. But it's a fun experiment.

Indeed it is fun, which is why I still plan on porting it someday to the Super Grafx Arcade CD-ROM2 System, because the world needs an "SGXACD"!

(Although I'm working on Mega Man X for straight PCE first as a learning experience.

)

tinypic.com/34rg3gk.png

Anyway... The image in the middle is the PSX original, and to the left is what happens when you try to approximate the PSX's palette as closely as possible on the PCE. As you can see it's interesting, but a bit drab with lots of loss of color information and detail. The image on the right is what the PCE's palette could do when tweaked a bit for artistic effect to leverage the system's palette strengths, namely using high contrast to your advantage and keeping a majority of the important colors in the middle shades to offer the most surrounding color choices.

I think it's a pretty neat effect...

SiberianSpForces · 11/01/2017, 10:37 AM

Quote from: guest on 10/30/2017, 12:59 PMThe reflecty water stuff in Bloodlines kicks ass.

I'd like to see Simon's Quest for PCE with some slight tweaks to make it less annoying.

If you fix the text a little, tweak the heart-grinding, and maybe add some more action to the mansions, it would be great.

like, add bosses instead of just stabbing bowling balls with sticks to finish the mansion.

And make it so you can't FUCKING DIE IN THE TOWNS IF YOU FALL IN THE WATER.

That was pretty stupid of them.

I second this idea.

There's a lot of great resources from SOTN and Rondo that could be imported.

CrackTiger · 11/01/2017, 11:19 AM

Quote from: guest on 10/30/2017, 10:32 PMThey are retro. They adhere to an aesthetic from the past.

SotN was also retro.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/01/2017, 11:54 AM

Quote from: CrackTiger on 11/01/2017, 11:19 AM
Quote from: guest on 10/30/2017, 10:32 PMThey are retro. They adhere to an aesthetic from the past.
SotN was also retro.

No it wasn't. Retro implies you're making a deliberate attempt to throwback. Like Johnny Rockets.

Sotn was just "the next game in the series, made like we've been doing this whole time."

That'd be like saying the latest RCA TV at the time was retro because it's kinda like the 20 year older one, but with nicer knobs/frame.

people just equate all this old stuff to being retro when it's not. Rebirth was retro.

nopepper · 11/01/2017, 02:21 PM

This is pretty neat, but PCE already has a kick ass Castlevania game, so I'd rather see a different franchise get the port treatment.

And to the peeps who are porting Shovel Knight to NES, the question is, why the NES?!? Is it just because of a bigger audience and it's Nintendo? Because that game would fit a million times better on the PCE, with its "fake" parallax and all.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/01/2017, 02:41 PM

Its because the game was basically a hopped up NES throwback, and that's what the plebs want

spenoza · 11/01/2017, 03:19 PM

If you're going to throw back to an older platform, you're more likely to do it to a popular one. Maybe you missed the 90s, but our platform of choice wasn't very popular in the West back then.

nopepper · 11/01/2017, 06:32 PM

Quote from: guest on 11/01/2017, 03:19 PMIf you're going to throw back to an older platform, you're more likely to do it to a popular one. Maybe you missed the 90s, but our platform of choice wasn't very popular in the West back then.

What?!? The NES was more popular than the Turbo? No way!!

I totally understand why developers would want to port a high profile game, such as Shovel Knight, to the hardware that inspired its development, and a hardware that is ostensibly synonymous with retro gaming. But really, Shovel Knight is way too much NES on steroids, so I reckon it'll have to be heavily compromised. Instead, the devs could still have gone old school, put it in vintage hardware that fits the game almost perfectly, press some Super CDs and probably still get an audience. If anything, it probably, much to the chagrin of a lot here, bring more fans into the PCE/Turbo world.

But that's the romantic in me writing this, as I know it will never happen, as the Turbo is just way too niche.

exodus · 11/01/2017, 06:47 PM

Quote from: guest on 11/01/2017, 11:19 AM
Quote from: guest on 10/30/2017, 10:32 PMThey are retro. They adhere to an aesthetic from the past.
SotN was also retro.

yeah - I mean if you're saying adventure rebirth adhered to an older aesthetic on a new platform, so too did SOTN. It sure wasn't all 3D with the newest bells and whistles! I have a pet peeve where "gamers" in general think anything pixel is retro or a throwback (not necessarily saying this is happening here, but that's what got me going).

adventure rebirth takes all the things learned from those prior eras - about sound design, animation, jumps, snappiness, colors, and level design, and pushes it further in a new direction. to me it was taking an old concept forward, rather than looking back and trying to emulate the past. I'd say a throwback emulates the past, but adventure rebirth evolves it, or at least attempts to.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/01/2017, 07:17 PM

The difference being that SOTN continued the trend like tons of games did on PSX even though 3D was available.

Sprite based games were still normal on that machine.

Rebirth on the other hand, came from a time where 3D took over and 2D started to finally come back.

Hence the name rebirth.

It's definitely a throwback, or a retro game. Pick whichever word. It's just a really well done one.

nopepper · 11/01/2017, 07:28 PM

I don't think SOTN was deliberately trying to be a callback to old games. On the contrary, it meant to woo players with its fancy effects and pixel art. The graphics and music were as much of a selling point as the new Metroid-like approach to level design. It in no way meant to convey "old" within its design. Hell, I'm not sure Sony would have let it be published in the US if it was...

The whole Rebirth series' shtick, OTOH, is exactly to celebrate the old with new games.

BTW, I just started playing Gradius Rebirth and holy shit is the music awesome (and the game is pretty good as well). I went to look at who composed it and it was none other than Manabu Namiki, which did not surprise me at all, as I seem to enjoy everything he does.

SignOfZeta · 11/01/2017, 07:30 PM

To me SotN felt Retro because at that time getting anything on US PlayStation that was 2D was pretty rare, thanks to the assholes running the place at the time.

However it's not like they had already gone 3D and went back to 2D. The previous game was Rondo, right? And SotN was a very clear evolution of that. The PCE game had stuff a FC couldn't do, the PS game did stuff the PCE couldn't do, seems less logical to me.

However, honestly, even when Rondo came out it felt pretty Retro with its wooden as hell controls. Post Sonic or whatever the game felt real old fashioned. Nobody else was locked to a staircase like that or getting juggled by frogmen. By 1993 it was all about speed and control in the more popular platformers.

So kinda both, IMHO.

Are Shin Shinobi Den and Psychic Assassin Taromaru Retro? They are from the same time period but different. Taromaru probably looks that way because the guys couldn't figure out polygons but Sega obviously could and yet theirs is the lesser game of the three by a mile.

I think back in 1995 or whether there were still loads of guys in Japan still trying to make the perfect 16-bit game and were overjoyed to try it on a way bigger machine and that's where this stuff comes from. That wouldn't be Retro really, just stubborn/out of touch.

For it to be Retro it has to be done on purpose. "I'm making this game that pretends it's old." I don't think SotN was that...but it was a little, let's be honest.

nopepper · 11/01/2017, 08:08 PM

Developers at the time were going for anything that was "next gen", so anything fresh, cool and exciting was the philosophy. They knew that if it felt old, everyone would accuse their game of being 16bit-ish (as a derogatory term).

I think all 3 games you mention were trying to accomplish this, using different approaches. Shinobi went for digitized graphics and FMV cut scenes, Taromaru went for lots of polygonal backgrounds and SOTN went for an elegant mesh of PSX next gen hardware abilities. Out of those 3, I would say Taromaru is the only one that was perhaps deliberately old school, as it seems the one that is trying the less to impress. Heck, perhaps Shinobi as well, since Sega didn't seem to know what the hell they were doing back then. But I still feel like SOTN was meant to impress and not harken back to the old, other than it being mainly sprite based 2D.

Thankfully, as you stated, Konami was stubborn and perhaps confident enough in the power of the Castlevania franchise, to use it as a way to show the world that next gen didn't necessarily mean going 3D.

SignOfZeta · 11/01/2017, 08:54 PM

Well, they try 3D, it just sucks dogs balls.

But I agree, the success of SotN is probably why we got so many good GBA CV games and why the series exists at all today. Lots of series/genres were dying at that time (the other two games I mentioned...) but this one lived.

saturndual32 · 11/01/2017, 09:18 PM

Quote from: Windcharger on 11/01/2017, 07:58 AM
Quote from: guest on 10/29/2017, 02:24 PMOf course. Purely from a graphics point of view I think you could get decent results although you'd be looking at some rather harsher contrast. Looking at sprite sheets, the colour count isn't greatly out of the PCE's reach. But it's a fun experiment.
Indeed it is fun, which is why I still plan on porting it someday to the Super Grafx Arcade CD-ROM2 System, because the world needs an "SGXACD"! (Although I'm working on Mega Man X for straight PCE first as a learning experience. )

I like the way you think... but at what point do you get to port the Arcade Contras to the PCE?

SignOfZeta · 11/01/2017, 10:02 PM

Who's brave enough to make a tate only release?

Michirin9801 · 11/01/2017, 11:14 PM

Quote from: nopepper on 11/01/2017, 02:21 PMAnd to the peeps who are porting Shovel Knight to NES, the question is, why the NES?!? Is it just because of a bigger audience and it's Nintendo? Because that game would fit a million times better on the PCE, with its "fake" parallax and all.

I don't think there's anyone porting Shovel Knight to the NES, it's just that I hear a lot of people saying stuff like: "I wanna see this game on the real NES" or something like that...

Oh and, you'd probably need at least a Saturn in order to do a perfect port of Shovel Knight, and even that one wouldn't be in wide-screen... And it's not because of the assets or animations, those could probably work fine on the PC engine, except for maybe some of the bigger sprites which are still a little too smoothly animated, no, it's because of the layers upon layers of overlapping Parallax Scrolling in every single stage, and of the 8 channel soundtrack not counting sound effects (which could just be on CD or maybe be re-arranged on the PCE's PSG which would probably sound even better anyway)
There are also a ton of little effects too, particularly in the text, that would easily take up too many sprites in order to reproduce...

SignOfZeta · 11/02/2017, 12:50 AM

You would have zero trouble funding a NES port of Shovel Knight, THEREFORE it could be easily done.

It might look like Double Dragon 2600 but...

Michirin9801 · 11/02/2017, 02:14 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/02/2017, 12:50 AMIt might look like Double Dragon 2600 but...

Either that, or you put the entire hardware inside of the cartridge and have the NES provide only the power and the input, and thus making you have to have a cable sticking out from your cartridge and connecting it to the TV, therefore completely defeating the purpose of "porting" it to the NES...

BigusSchmuck · 11/02/2017, 10:17 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/01/2017, 07:30 PMTo me SotN felt Retro because at that time getting anything on US PlayStation that was 2D was pretty rare, thanks to the assholes running the place at the time.

However it's not like they had already gone 3D and went back to 2D. The previous game was Rondo, right? And SotN was a very clear evolution of that. The PCE game had stuff a FC couldn't do, the PS game did stuff the PCE couldn't do, seems less logical to me.

However, honestly, even when Rondo came out it felt pretty Retro with its wooden as hell controls. Post Sonic or whatever the game felt real old fashioned. Nobody else was locked to a staircase like that or getting juggled by frogmen. By 1993 it was all about speed and control in the more popular platformers.

So kinda both, IMHO.

Are Shin Shinobi Den and Psychic Assassin Taromaru Retro? They are from the same time period but different. Taromaru probably looks that way because the guys couldn't figure out polygons but Sega obviously could and yet theirs is the lesser game of the three by a mile.

I think back in 1995 or whether there were still loads of guys in Japan still trying to make the perfect 16-bit game and were overjoyed to try it on a way bigger machine and that's where this stuff comes from. That wouldn't be Retro really, just stubborn/out of touch.

For it to be Retro it has to be done on purpose. "I'm making this game that pretends it's old." I don't think SotN was that...but it was a little, let's be honest.

I agree. To some of us who remember the 90s for the Playstation, it was all about pushing those damn polygons. 1997 was no different.

Quote from: guest on 10/30/2017, 12:59 PMThe reflecty water stuff in Bloodlines kicks ass.

I'd like to see Simon's Quest for PCE with some slight tweaks to make it less annoying.

If you fix the text a little, tweak the heart-grinding, and maybe add some more action to the mansions, it would be great.

like, add bosses instead of just stabbing bowling balls with sticks to finish the mansion.

And make it so you can't FUCKING DIE IN THE TOWNS IF YOU FALL IN THE WATER.

That was pretty stupid of them.

I would take it a step further, fix the fucking endings, put in some Super Castlevania whip moves, fix the broken Engrish and you would have a decent Metroidvania game.

CrackTiger · 11/02/2017, 10:35 PM

Here's some of the SotN inspired stuff that's in Henshin Engine.

Only the extra background details of the building in the courtyard was cut, in order to allow dual layer parallax (and that brazier flame was a temp for mockups). Every section of the Castlevampire stage has "dual layer" style parallax, including the boss room.

The simplified and more tiled look was intentional to try to use as few (16 x 16 pixel) tiles as possible, because of the restrictions of HuC, not the limitations of PC Engine hardware.

Henshin Engine Symphony of the Night

The drawbridge itself is styled after the one in SotN.

SignOfZeta · 11/03/2017, 02:36 AM

Cooooooooool.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/03/2017, 12:46 PM

beaaaaaanssssssssssssssss

ToyMachine78 · 11/03/2017, 01:56 PM

BT that really is impressive work. It's gorgeous.

nopepper · 11/03/2017, 04:54 PM

Love it.

Can't wait to play this!

Mathius · 11/03/2017, 05:23 PM

Impressive.

Most impressive.

Windcharger · 11/05/2017, 02:35 PM

Quote from: saturndual32 on 11/01/2017, 09:18 PM
Quote from: Windcharger on 11/01/2017, 07:58 AMIndeed it is fun, which is why I still plan on porting it someday to the Super Grafx Arcade CD-ROM2 System, because the world needs an "SGXACD"! (Although I'm working on Mega Man X for straight PCE first as a learning experience. )
I like the way you think... but at what point do you get to port the Arcade Contras to the PCE?

Hehe, thanks! Oh man, can you imagine if Konami had given Contra the SCD treatment akin to Dracula X?!?

I remember back in the day early rumors and preview information on Dracula X had it billed as a remake of the original Castlevania on NES (at least according to GameFan iirc) and what we got instead was pure art in motion. The prospect of getting a "Contra X" boggles the mind... and I'm sure it would have been left in Japan too...

Michirin9801 · 11/05/2017, 04:40 PM

Quote from: Windcharger on 11/05/2017, 02:35 PMOh man, can you imagine if Konami had given Contra the SCD treatment akin to Dracula X?!?

That would have been great! But I think Contra on the PCE would have been just as great even if it was just on HuCard, I mean, imagine that soundtrack on the PCE PSG ;3
The SCC proves that Konami knew how to work with wavetables~

CrackTiger · 11/05/2017, 05:17 PM

Quote from: Michirin9801 on 11/05/2017, 04:40 PM
Quote from: Windcharger on 11/05/2017, 02:35 PMOh man, can you imagine if Konami had given Contra the SCD treatment akin to Dracula X?!?
That would have been great! But I think Contra on the PCE would have been just as great even if it was just on HuCard, I mean, imagine that soundtrack on the PCE PSG ;3
The SCC proves that Konami knew how to work with wavetables~

They certainly were capable, but they didn't use anyone who could/would do something special for their PCE chiptunes.