Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate

[CrackTiger]

To me, a more common statement is that the Genesis outshined the TG-16 in every technical category, which is patently false. The TG-16 was readily capable of visuals matching or surpassing the Genesis, taken on a game by game basis. That said, some games looked like late generation NES games with a better color palette (which in itself is not a dig, as those NES games themselves looked pretty darn good, even compared to 16-bit).

There are lots of games on Genesis and SNES that look like NES games.

[ccovell]

I've probably written this before, but at the time the PCE came out (1987), a lot of the development tools for home systems were focussed on the Famicom: 8-bit CPU, small sprites, simple tiles, etc.  And so I think a lot of early PCE games (let's say the ones not by Hudson's best teams) really lacked powerful graphics to distinguish them from Famicom games at the time.  It took most companies until they developed PCE-specific tools (map editors, better graphic editors) before stunning games started to get made.  Early in the PCE's life, we saw plenty of NES-alikes and Japanese PC conversions.

The Mega Drive, on the other hand, had a lot of developers experienced with arcade graphics and had arcade (or X68000) devkits, so I think the arcade quality of many games was definitely there even early in the MD's life.

When I look at PCE ads from 1987-88, I feel a sense of disgust with the game lineups of most companies... 

[Tatsujin]

but then, something strange happened..

The CDROM attachments (all of them) include a new ADPCM soundchip and some extra RAM for playing sound samples. This RAM is not the same as normal PCE RAM, and was designed to be used with the new soundchip exclusively. Through clever programming the game Monster Lair used this RAM to store extra sprite animation, essentially bypassing the RAM limitations of the PCE and System Card. It's probably that this is the first and possibly only time that new sound hardware increased graphic quality. Interestingly this affected emulation as well, as Monster Lair suddenly looked better when this soundchip was accurately emulated.

quite interesting how to use hardware, isn't it?^^

[JoshTurboTrollX]

Ah this damn thread again!  LOL

I always thought the Genesissy put way too much stock in competing with the SNES(Which it SO couldn't), while the TG16 went in a whole different direction.

I personally prefer the TurboGrafx graphics over the genesis.

But just for the record I love all things 16-bit!  The Genny, Snessy, and TG16 was truly the greatest time in gaming!

TS

[OldTurboBastard]

But regardless, I don't understand how you can point out how impressive Lords of Thunder is for layered graphics in one sentence and in the next sentence say that Altered Beast and Strider prove that the PC Engine can't do them.

Then why did'nt they port over parrallax in those games? Probably because the system can't handle having to emulate true parallax while providing the rest of the game action. It works well in LOT and other turbo original games bacause because they could program around the limitation using fairly simple second layers, which often morph back into one layer when the system could not pull off the mirage any more.

...if they could've they would've is all i'm saying. And yes maybe "they couldve if they used nifty programming and this and that" but the fact is they did'nt because it was not easy for the turbo to pull off

[nat]

But regardless, I don't understand how you can point out how impressive Lords of Thunder is for layered graphics in one sentence and in the next sentence say that Altered Beast and Strider prove that the PC Engine can't do them.

Then why did'nt they port over parrallax in those games?

In the case of Altered Beast, it was because there was no parallax to port. As I stated in another thread, the parallax was added specifically for the Genesis version. The Turbo version was not a port of the Genesis version, it was a port of the arcade. The arcade did not have any parallax.

...if they could've they would've is all i'm saying. And yes maybe "they couldve if they used nifty programming and this and that" but the fact is they did'nt because it was not easy for the turbo to pull off

Perhaps not as easy to program, but it's still possible. We've seen it in tons of games on the system (maybe you haven't). So what it really boils down to is lazy or incompetent programmers.

[esteban]

Ha! I'm much more concerned about character design (sprite design) and the graphics used for the stage/background when it comes to aesthetics.

All this attention lavished upon parallax scrolling is too much!

Don't get me wrong: I love parallax, but I find myself disappointed with the artistic vision of a game much more often than I lament the "lack of parallax" (or similar technicality). In fact, I think I can flip this discussion around and argue that parallax was a LAZY SHORTCUT to add superficial eye candy to most games, whereas it would have been much more exciting (and impressive) to see bold, daring artistic vision.

Or, if it is too much to ask for pioneering art design, we deserved to have more inspired and creative art directors for video games! Then, at least, we would have seen more variety in our games instead of the same rehashed, generic stuff ad nauseam.

For example, let's take JJ & Jeff:
1. I always felt the game looked flat, the backgrounds and stage design is anemic and sparse. Adding parallax would have been a "quick-n-easy" way to make the game more appealing, visually, IMO.
2. But, actually, I would happily forgo parallax in JJ & Jeff if the artistic designer had had a more creative / inspired vision for the game.
3. I like JJ & Jeff. I guess I lust for a sequel to the game. And don't forget to give me some more eye candy, if only for some cheap thrills!

[Keranu]

I've probably written this before, but at the time the PCE came out (1987), a lot of the development tools for home systems were focussed on the Famicom: 8-bit CPU, small sprites, simple tiles, etc.  And so I think a lot of early PCE games (let's say the ones not by Hudson's best teams) really lacked powerful graphics to distinguish them from Famicom games at the time.  It took most companies until they developed PCE-specific tools (map editors, better graphic editors) before stunning games started to get made.  Early in the PCE's life, we saw plenty of NES-alikes and Japanese PC conversions.

The Mega Drive, on the other hand, had a lot of developers experienced with arcade graphics and had arcade (or X68000) devkits, so I think the arcade quality of many games was definitely there even early in the MD's life.

When I look at PCE ads from 1987-88, I feel a sense of disgust with the game lineups of most companies... 

Awesome, thanks for the sweet info!

[OldTurboBastard]

For example, let's take JJ & Jeff:
1. I always felt the game looked flat, the backgrounds and stage design is anemic and sparse. Adding parallax would have been a "quick-n-easy" way to make the game more appealing, visually, IMO.
2. But, actually, I would happily forgo parallax in JJ & Jeff if the artistic designer had had a more creative / inspired vision for the game.
3. I like JJ & Jeff. I guess I lust for a sequel to the game. And don't forget to give me some more eye candy, if only for some cheap thrills!

1. Agreed, and i'll take it. better more appealling even if it is a simple and easy way, as it was for the genesis developers.
2. I'll agree with this too. But they did'nt cause it's not easy to pull off on the turbo so we are left with boring backgrounds that could've been helped by a little parallax
3. I had fun with this one back in the day too

As for too much attention being paid to parallax, I disagree, it's a pretty big upgrade over flat boring backgrounds and is even used in some genesis games to create gigantic boss characters without using up onscreen sprites. I'd say it's right up there with the mode 7 effects on the SNES as far as importance goes.

It's the only area between the two consoles where the PC engine can't come close to the Genesis or vice cersa. The rest is pretty debateable, as we have seen in this thread.

[Turbo D]

the pcengine has lots of games with good parallax, you just haven't played any of them 

[OldTurboBastard]

the pcengine has lots of games with good parallax, you just haven't played any of them 

Not true - played most of 'em mentioned on here, aside from a possible few oscure japanese titles.

FACT -most games for the turbo do not use overlapping parallax scrolling. They are not the the norm, they are the exception. Most games that did have it featured separately scrolling planes that could not overlap. When they did manage to pull it off overlapping parallax, it was generally clunky looking, (i.e. black squares instead of sharp borders) and one layer of the background was normally a weak pattern (Ninja Spirit). Y's III had two complex backgrounds but it ran like doo-doo. Some of the parallax on the turbo may have been good (LOT, Dracula, Dead Moon etc), but it was no where near on the level of say Mystic Defender Or Revenge of Shinobi (both early games for the Genesis), and it was RARE (which is why we turbo fan boys seem to ga-ga over it), which made owning the turbografx in the USA back it 1990 like having a system that pretty much did not do true parallax, only the separate planes like we see in R-TYPE that do not overlap.

it is what it is...

[PCEngineHell]

In the case of Altered Beast, it was because there was no parallax to port. As I stated in another thread, the parallax was added specifically for the Genesis version. The Turbo version was not a port of the Genesis version, it was a port of the arcade. The arcade did not have any parallax.

You and I both pointed this out,I wonder how that keeps getting missed so much....
Also,as stated before and what also seems to be forgotten,the Genesis used off the shelf parts,and was easier for companies to program for,esp for companies in there to make  a quick buck with the bonus of less programming experience needed then what early development on the Pc-Engine required. Companies programming for the Pc-Engine had to start from scratch,and learn tricks and limits. Yea they did on the Genesis also,but to a lesser degree as the hardware in there was familiar to about all the companies about due to Amiga and arcade development.


Edit:ccovell pointed much of the above out too,sorry I overlooked that post,but still always good to know all great minds think mostly alike.

[Turbo D]

the pcengine has lots of games with good parallax, you just haven't played any of them 

Not true - played most of 'em mentioned on here, aside from a possible few oscure japanese titles.

FACT -most games for the turbo do not use overlapping parallax scrolling. They are not the the norm, they are the exception. Most games that did have it featured separately scrolling planes that could not overlap. When they did manage to pull it off overlapping parallax, it was generally clunky looking, (i.e. black squares instead of sharp borders) and one layer of the background was normally a weak pattern (Ninja Spirit). Y's III had two complex backgrounds but it ran like doo-doo. Some of the parallax on the turbo may have been good (LOT, Dracula, Dead Moon etc), but it was no where near on the level of say Mystic Defender Or Revenge of Shinobi (both early games for the Genesis), and it was RARE (which is why we turbo fan boys seem to ga-ga over it), which made owning the turbografx in the USA back it 1990 like having a system that pretty much did not do true parallax, only the separate planes like we see in R-TYPE that do not overlap.

it is what it is...

Have you played airzonk? that game has tons of parallax and huge bosses and plays very nice and fast. I'd like to see the Genesis do something like that. Shinobi was fine and all, but it had poor color and fuzzy/blurry sprites. Perhaps the Genesis needed parallax so badly to cover up its bland color and fuzzy/blurry grafx. One thing the Turbo Grafx had over the Genesis was sharp picture and non-blurry/ugly sprites. Its hard to tell what the faces of the characters are on a lot of genesis games because of the poor quality, haha. Sometimes its even hard to tell whats going on.

[GUTS]

Air Zonk is definitely nice looking but Shinobi III, Ranger X, and many others completely annihilate it graphically.

[Joe Redifer]

This thread is pretty pathetic from both sides.

And to add to it's uselessness, I will inform you that Air Zonk had h-sync parallax (no overlapping), just like Choplifter for the Sega Master System.

[PCEngineHell]

I'd also like to add that the Genesis is clear and sharp in RGB,S-video,and component,not blurry or fuzzy.

[awack]

With all the talk about parallax scrolling i should mention shape shifter (a turbo game for those who don't know), there is an area which has an object in the foreground which scrolls by so often behind that you have i think 4 or 5 layers of scrolling (the ground your running on) and behind that you have 3 layers of overlapping parallax scrolling(trees).

Thats not the same thing as having 2 background screens but it is still very impressive to most people i guess.

[Joe Redifer]

It would be impressive to me.  I haven't played Shape Shifter because I really only hear bad things about it, but my friend owns it so I should borrow the game and give it a try.

[Tatsujin]

so let's merge that parallax talk in short sentences! as told by chris and joe:

As for the PCE:
non-overlapping parallax > h-sync
overlapping parallax > sprites (from the 2nd to n layers)

As for the MD:
two hardware layers. so from the 3rd to n layer >
non-overlapping parallax > h-sync
overlapping parallax > sprites

right?

[TurboXray]

As for too much attention being paid to parallax, I disagree, it's a pretty big upgrade over flat boring backgrounds and is even used in some genesis games to create gigantic boss characters without using up onscreen sprites. I'd say it's right up there with the mode 7 effects on the SNES as far as importance goes.

You hit the nail on the head. Parallax can be faked in many different ways (and some you guys have yet to see...) and game design around such subtle scrolling layers can prove to be more in the interest of overall production than importance of throwing in a second layer *just* to be "16bit" distinguished. But... a *big* added bonus to second or more BG layers is that you can fake large Boss (sprites) with it. Maaaaanny games do this. Heh- using sprites to fake BGs, using BGs to fake sprites.

 Ehem... SGX.  (Wish the hell they had included the damn hardware into the Duo unit since the technology(ICs) were already developed and available)

 Btw, Cdoty mentioned NeoGeo specs on a mame dev site and stated the system could support 16x4096 size sprites. Wiki says 16x512, but they've been known not to have their shit together.

[CrackTiger]

But regardless, I don't understand how you can point out how impressive Lords of Thunder is for layered graphics in one sentence and in the next sentence say that Altered Beast and Strider prove that the PC Engine can't do them.

Then why did'nt they port over parrallax in those games? Probably because the system can't handle having to emulate true parallax while providing the rest of the game action. It works well in LOT and other turbo original games bacause because they could program around the limitation using fairly simple second layers, which often morph back into one layer when the system could not pull off the mirage any more.

...if they could've they would've is all i'm saying. And yes maybe "they couldve if they used nifty programming and this and that" but the fact is they did'nt because it was not easy for the turbo to pull off

Because not every game is developed by the same team.

Pretty much all the parallax in the Genesis Altered Beast is very easy to pull of on the Turbo. It'd just be 'slate' scrolling that even the NES can do with a few extra sprites to poke out over the layers in spots. Its nothing that puts the Genesis's layering abilities to good use.

Here is the Genesis Altered Beast parallax on NES-

It has nothing to do with ease or difficulty for the Turbo, only competency and/or laziness of developers.

It'd take some nifty tricks to do some of Strider's bgs on the Turbo, but its not hard to figure out how at least some of it could be done. But its obvious that the PCE port of Strider was very poor and that the developer couldn't handle programming in some of the most basic things, like scrolling a screen across a flat background, let alone attempt to do layers of any kind.

I'd also like to add that the Genesis is clear and sharp in RGB,S-video,and component,not blurry or fuzzy.

Yeah, but who in North America was playing their Genesis in RGB and S-Video in 1989? And would those who did really say that Genesis games had smoother edges and more detailed sprites when they could make out all the jaggies and pixels?

[TurboXray]

so let's merge that parallax talk in short sentences! as told by chris and joe:

As for the PCE:
non-overlapping parallax > h-sync
overlapping parallax > sprites (from the 2nd to n layers)

As for the MD:
two hardware layers. so from the 3rd to n layer >
non-overlapping parallax > h-sync
overlapping parallax > sprites

right?

Wait.. what?  By ">" do you mean "->"  as in "goes to/associated with"?

 The MD can do overlapping parallax layers without using sprites. ThunderForce 4 ocean side level is a perfect example of this. The SGX and SNES can do this too.


 Black Tiger: The NES did that with the help of an additional chip (in the US they used MMC3 or greater), otherwise you could only split the screen once per frame using the sprite 0 method (The coin in the upper side screen of SMB1 is a perfect example).

[CrackTiger]

so let's merge that parallax talk in short sentences! as told by chris and joe:

As for the PCE:
non-overlapping parallax > h-sync
overlapping parallax > sprites (from the 2nd to n layers)

As for the MD:
two hardware layers. so from the 3rd to n layer >
non-overlapping parallax > h-sync
overlapping parallax > sprites

right?

Wait.. what?  By ">" do you mean "->"  as in "goes to/associated with"?

 The MD can do overlapping parallax layers without using sprites. ThunderForce 4 ocean side level is a perfect example of this. The SGX and SNES can do this too.


 Black Tiger: The NES did that with the help of an additional chip (in the US they used MMC3 or greater), otherwise you could only split the screen once per frame using the sprite 0 method (The coin in the upper side screen of SMB1 is a perfect example).

The NES used chips for a lot of things. So then its a 'trick' that even the SMS can do no problem.

With all the talk about parallax scrolling i should mention shape shifter (a turbo game for those who don't know), there is an area which has an object in the foreground which scrolls by so often behind that you have i think 4 or 5 layers of scrolling (the ground your running on) and behind that you have 3 layers of overlapping parallax scrolling(trees).

Thats not the same thing as having 2 background screens but it is still very impressive to most people i guess.

It appears to use a 'weak pattern' tile animation in the distance and the 'h-sync' parallax on the ground with sprites popping out.

Whats cool about the animating tiles is that, if I remember correctly, they animate as if there are two layers in the distance overlapping each other, kinda like 3 layers of bgs.

You hit the nail on the head. Parallax can be faked in many different ways (and some you guys have yet to see...) and game design around such subtle scrolling layers can prove to be more in the interest of overall production than importance of throwing in a second layer *just* to be "16bit" distinguished. But... a *big* added bonus to second or more BG layers is that you can fake large Boss (sprites) with it. Maaaaanny games do this. Heh- using sprites to fake BGs, using BGs to fake sprites.

The NES has many games with very cool giant bosses that do that on a black background.

I played a ways through Atomic Robo Kid the other day, and some of the fullscreen bosses had slight flicker at times. I'm guessing that they just used a bg layer on the Genesis version, but it was still impressive that the PCE was tossing them around with only sprites plus they looked cool regardless.

[awack]

Whats cool about the animating tiles is that, if I remember correctly, they animate as if there are two layers in the distance overlapping each other, kinda like 3 layers of bgs.

exactly, there are 3 overlapping background layers of trees.

[Turbo D]

The Genesis had 3 years on the PcEngine and was twice its size and the games don't look any better. The genesis would be an utter waste of chips with out that extra background layer;  its all that it has to compete. Anyways, Genesis failed to the PcEngine in Japan for obvious reasons. It will fail in this thread as well 

[CrackTiger]

The Genesis had 3 years on the PcEngine and was twice its size and the games don't look any better. The genesis would be an utter waste of chips with out that extra background layer;  its all that it has to compete. Anyways, Genesis failed to the PcEngine in Japan for obvious reasons. It will fail in this thread as well 

Well, this is a PC Engine forum.

Try starting this thread over on Sega-16.

[Tatsujin]

so let's merge that parallax talk in short sentences! as told by chris and joe:

As for the PCE:
non-overlapping parallax > h-sync
overlapping parallax > sprites (from the 2nd to n layers)

As for the MD:
two hardware layers. so from the 3rd to n layer >
non-overlapping parallax > h-sync
overlapping parallax > sprites

right?

Wait.. what?  By ">" do you mean "->"  as in "goes to/associated with"?

 The MD can do overlapping parallax layers without using sprites. ThunderForce 4 ocean side level is a perfect example of this. The SGX and SNES can do this too.

yes ">" = "->"

as i could take out from joes post, the MD only owns 2 HW layers, therefore i thought, any addition layers have to be done the exactly same way as on the PCE, h-sync or use of sprites.

[Tatsujin]

The Genesis had 3 years on the PcEngine and was twice its size and the games don't look any better. The genesis would be an utter waste of chips with out that extra background layer;  its all that it has to compete. Anyways, Genesis failed to the PcEngine in Japan for obvious reasons. It will fail in this thread as well 

what you mean with 3 years? that was the SFC..

the only one real exiting thing is, that the PCE was released more than a year earlier than the MD and almost 3 years before the SFC came out. considering this fact, the PC Engine was really a big step ahead and astonishing little piece of hardware back then! if you open a PCE there is 96% designed in advanced SMD technology, which makes it such compact and you think you openend something designed in the middle 90s. if you open a MD, you think you opened an alarm-clock from the mid 80s.

[CrackTiger]

so let's merge that parallax talk in short sentences! as told by chris and joe:

As for the PCE:
non-overlapping parallax > h-sync
overlapping parallax > sprites (from the 2nd to n layers)

As for the MD:
two hardware layers. so from the 3rd to n layer >
non-overlapping parallax > h-sync
overlapping parallax > sprites

right?

Wait.. what?  By ">" do you mean "->"  as in "goes to/associated with"?

 The MD can do overlapping parallax layers without using sprites. ThunderForce 4 ocean side level is a perfect example of this. The SGX and SNES can do this too.

yes ">" = "->"

as i could take out from joes post, the MD only owns 2 HW layers, therefore i thought, any addition layers have to be done the exactly same way as on the PCE, h-sync or use of sprites.

It can still throw up a foreground. I don't know if the foreground can scroll seperate pieces to keep a score/status and moving graphic elements though.

[Tatsujin]

so then we talking about 1 foreground + 2 extra background layers (for parallax) = 3 hardware layers? 4th to n layer by h-sync or sprites?

[CrackTiger]

so then we talking about 1 foreground + 2 extra background layers (for parallax) = 3 hardware layers? 4th to n layer by h-sync or sprites?

Thats how I understand it.


I had been thinking of starting a thread to ask all the tech heads questions about how certain Turbo bgs effects were achieved once I got enough examples together. Since this thread has already touched on it, here's one I've wondered about for a while:

How is the red floor and ceiling bg achieved in Stage 3 of Magical Chase?

[nat]

The Genesis had 3 years on the PcEngine and was twice its size and the games don't look any better. The genesis would be an utter waste of chips with out that extra background layer;  its all that it has to compete. Anyways, Genesis failed to the PcEngine in Japan for obvious reasons. It will fail in this thread as well 

Well, this is a PC Engine forum.

Try starting this thread over on Sega-16.

[Tatsujin]

yeah that's an amazing example of how to use manific parallax multi scrolling on the PCE.

Accroding to our new earned knowledge of how to create parallax on the PCE, i would say the wood parts are made of pure sprites, which would be quite amazing. the 1st moving cloud layer have to be done in n-sync, since they used the same blue on the top as in the rearmost back ground to hide the cuts of n-sync parallax.

[ccovell]

You hit the nail on the head. Parallax can be faked in many different ways (and some you guys have yet to see...)

Heh, we've seen it done that (...) way in Crisis Force on the Famicom.   

[Joe Redifer]

Turbo D, you really, REALLY hate the Genesis with a passion, dontcha?

I don't know if the [Mega Drive/Genesis'] foreground can scroll seperate pieces to keep a score/status and moving graphic elements though.

The Genesis can scroll each horizontal line independently on both BGs simultaneously.  Quite a few games do this, but I think the first was Gaiares.  Wings of Wor did this as well while simultaneously scrolling each 8-pixel wide column up and down independently on both backgrounds at the same time for a crazy wavey effect.

I'd also like to know how stage 3 of Magical Chase was done.  I also think the wood parts are probably sprites, but like I said before, just about any system seems to be able to scroll a single BG layer into itself vertically (though never actually overlapping).  CrackTiger, why are there black bars on the sides of that video?

[WoodyXP]

It's a close call for me.  Some games look best on the Turbo... while other games look better on the MD.
Like mentioned before.. it all boils down to who developed the games.  We can talk until we're
blue in the face about hardware... but what good is the hardware without great programmers?

[CrackTiger]

Black Tiger, why are there black bars on the sides of that video?

Thats a good question. I just checked some other videos that I recorded and they have the same thing. Hopefully I can fix it by checking a box in my capturing software.

I also think the wood parts are probably sprites, but like I said before, just about any system seems to be able to scroll a single BG layer into itself vertically (though never actually overlapping).

I'd really like to know how that works, because I've noticed a few Turbo games lately that do some cool vertical bg moves and it seems to me that combined with h-sync scrolling + a few extra sprites, combined the Turbo should be able to easily replicate any kind of multi layered scrolling/movement, other than something that moves in 360 degrees.

[ccovell]

How Magical Chase does it is pretty simple, and any game can have the same effect; the sections of the background in Stage 3 of Magical Chase are just unbroken horizontal bars (sky, clouds, a wooden floor and ceiling) -- these can be moved around at will just like the sections of a slide rule.  The wooden stumps, turrets, rivets, etc that poke out from the floor and ceiling are sprites.  It's the same technique that is done on countless other shmups.

[NecroPhile]

The Genesis had 3 years on the PcEngine and was twice its size and the games don't look any better. The genesis would be an utter waste of chips with out that extra background layer;  its all that it has to compete.

It was only one year (October 30, 1987 to October 29, 1988), but point taken.  The SNES had two years on the Genesis (November 21, 1990) and was superior in every way, except for the most important - clock speed.

Parallax can be faked in many different ways (and some you guys have yet to see...)

Quit teasing us, ya bastard!

[OldTurboBastard]

It's a close call for me.  Some games look best on the Turbo... while other games look better on the MD.
Like mentioned before.. it all boils down to who developed the games.  We can talk until we're
blue in the face about hardware... but what good is the hardware without great programmers?

It makes it so a lazy genesis programmer can accomplish cool things with the background that a clever, determined, programmer working with the turbo platform could never pull off as well.

[nat]

It makes it so a lazy genesis programmer can accomplish cool things with the background that a clever, determined, programmer working with the turbo platform could never pull off as well.

It's clear to me now that OldTurboBastard is either trolling or is mentally unable to grasp the concepts laid out here.

[OldTurboBastard]

It makes it so a lazy genesis programmer can accomplish cool things with the background that a clever, determined, programmer working with the turbo platform could never pull off as well.

It's clear to me now that OldTurboBastard is either trolling or is mentally unable to grasp the concepts laid out here.

Again not true on both counts. Not trolling, just engaged in a lively (if not heated) discussion. That's one of the things a forum is for.

I grasp the conceps laid out here, that the turbo CAN pull off SOME of the parallax featured so often in Genesis games, and I have seen it with my own eyes. But the fact remains it is more difficult to pull off on the turbo and therefore is seen less often and is generally not as complete or involved - which is not good for us turbo gamers and probably the reason we tend to point it out so much in the turbo games that DO have it "Holy cow they finally pulled off parallax!!"

[PCEngineHell]

I like both systems,and both have abilities to top each other here and there,but if I had to choose a hands down winner in over all quality,esp graphically Id pick Hudson's baby. Paralax scrolling doesn't paint the whole picture anyway. Besides that,no matter how many fine shooters were presented on Genesis/Megadrive,Pc-Engine/TG16 had the better ones available on hucard or scd. Couple that with the nice Neo ports,and Sf 2 Champ,and the other fighters on Scd,the system simply stays as my favorite right beside the Neo.

Any comparisons that could blow me out of the water and prove me wrong? I'd love to see. Plus where, if it all, does the turbo beat out the Genesis in any tech stat categories? I'm talking strictly graphics not sound

Some good examples of excellent programming,to me,are shown on the videos people made:

Good video to watch so you can see how the Pc-Engine handled the Neo stuff the best

Not to knock you OldTurboBastard,but it does seem like your actually more into the other system,Genesis,which is fine,everyone can have their fav,and a right to their opinion,but what you could do to put up a better argument if your dead set on feeling like your right is to do screen shot comparisons or something. We tend to do that off and on around here.

[PCEngineHell]

I should note however I feel neither systems shooters can touch my Blazing Star and Last Resort on NeoGeo

[NecroPhile]

It makes it so a lazy genesis programmer can accomplish cool things with the background that a clever, determined, programmer working with the turbo platform could never pull off as well.

Can you name a single game on the Genesis that could not be done on the Engine?  Using the techniques already mentioned here, all of your coveted parallax could be replicated on the Engine - until it runs out of sprites.  You'd have to find a game that has a shit load of overlapping parallax as well as a ton of sprites, which simply doesn't happen all that often.

You are under the delusion that there is only a handful of PC Engine games with parallax, when in reality there are hundreds.  While nearly every Genesis game has some parallax, much of it is pretty simplistic and nothing technically impressive.

[OldTurboBastard]

Not to knock you OldTurboBastard,but it does seem like your actually more into the other system,Genesis,which is fine,everyone can have their fav,and a right to their opinion,but what you could do to put up a better argument if your dead set on feeling like your right is to do screen shot comparisons or something. We tend to do that off and on around here.

Fair Enough. Thanks for posting the videos some were quite impressive. If I were not at work i'd post some examples. I'm starting to get the feeling that no amount of hard evidence could sway the opinions on this board anyhow. Most seem pretty set that the turbo can do anything the Genesis can do. My argument at this point is that most of the time it did'nt.

As for liking the genesis more - I always enjoyed the turbo when i owned it, I just spent alot of time wishing my turbo games had some of the cool backgrounds I saw so often in the Genesis games -

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback. I'm out for now....

[geise]

Gunstar Heroes.  There's quite a few raster effects Trasure does with that hardware that I don't think would really be able to  be done on the Duo.  I love my Duo way better than my Genesis/MD btw, just adding fuel to the fire 

[nat]

You are under the delusion that there is only a handful of PC Engine games with parallax, when in reality there are hundreds.  While nearly every Genesis game has some parallax,

Good point.

I'd be interested, just for the sake of perhaps getting some acknowledgement from OldTurboBastard, to see a total count of all the PCE games that feature parallax versus a count of all the Genesis games that have parallax.

I'd venture a guess that there isn't as big a gap in the tallies as OldTurboBastard believes.

But Michael (and others) also made a grand point-- parallax isn't the end all and be all of video games.

I'm starting to get the feeling that no amount of hard eveidence could sway the opinions on this board anyhow. Most seem pretty set that the turbo can do anything the Genesis can do. My argument at this point is that most of the time it did'nt.

And judging from your comments, I get the feeling you haven't played many Turbo games-- otherwise you probably wouldn't feel that way.  

[runinruder]

I grasp the conceps laid out here, that the turbo CAN pull off SOME of the parallax featured so often in Genesis games, and I have seen it with my own eyes. But the fact remains it is more difficult to pull off on the turbo and therefore is seen less often and is generally not as complete or involved - which is not good for us turbo gamers and probably the reason we tend to point it out so much in the turbo games that DO have it "Holy cow they finally pulled off parallax!!"

OldTurboBastard makes a good point here.  Take Sinistron/Violent Soldier.  Players were THRILLED by the first stage's parallax, while if the identical game had been released for the Genesis, people would just be wondering why the hell the other stages didn't follow suit.  Dead Moon always garners praise for its scrolling, but such effects would be considered merely obligatory in a Genesis game. 

I'm not one of these tech experts who can explain the ins and outs of each system, but I own hundreds of PCE/Turbo games, and I've played the crud out of just about all of them, so I have a pretty good idea of what the system was capable of visually (or at least what programmers managed/bothered to produce with it).  Things that would seem routine on the Genesis amaze people when they're accomplished in a PCE game.  And I don't buy the excuse that all of these programmers were too lazy or simply unwilling to go the extra mile with the resources available to them, as there were MANY renowned third party developers producing games for the PCE.  I think it's more likely that, as OldTurboBastard has asserted, it was extremely difficult or simply impossible to pull off the sort of visual effects that have been discussed.

Of course, the PCE was capable of outdoing the Genesis in some ways, mostly thanks to colors.  And people have correctly pointed out that certain ports were much more impressive on the PCE (though while some people are quick to use "lazy programmers" as an excuse for the PCE's lack of impressive effects, most don't seem to give the Genesis the same benefit of the doubt when it comes to these ports).  But I don't think the PC Engine was capable of hosting graphics like those in Lightening Force or Aladdin for the Genesis.  I think even the relatively early Castle of Illusion, beautiful on the Gen, would look very 8-bit and unimpressive on the Turbo.

[geise]

Well Valis III on Genesis has way more parallax than the Turbo version, but to me the Turbo version is better with extra levels, cd music and shitty voice acting.  Then again I guess it doesn't count since it's a CD based game.  Regardless, the "awesome"  Genesis parallax scrolling didn't make it a better gaming experience for me.