1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16

[jlued686]

1up just posted an article about "failed" consoles, what went wrong with them, and how they could've been saved. The first one they covered was the TurboGrafx-16. As with most mainsteam gaming websites, it has a few questionable parts, but I think it's a pretty well-done article overall.

Thought I'd share it with you guys:
http://www.1up.com/features/saving-the-system-failed-consoles

[Joe Redifer]

That was a pretty good article.  Although they only barely toughed on it, one of the biggest failures of the system was the necessity to buy extra adapters for multiplayer, composite video/stereo sound, etc.  That's just extremely stupid design.  The PC Engine has that same beyond-idiotic design in Japan.  Seriously, how stupid can they be?  Morons.

[BigusSchmuck]

But by buying the turbo tap you can go up to 5 players! Not a bad deal considering there are a ton of 5 player games....

[DragonmasterDan]

The single controller port was one of those problems that really should have been identified before it hit the market.

[SignOfZeta]

The US system should have had the multitap built in. Also, stereo, composite...hell, you could build a toilet and a satelite dish into the TG-16 its so damned huge.

Looking at the PCE core system, space is obviously more in demand. The single controller port was kind of rough, but because of it everyone ended up buying a tap, giving them a max of five. With other systems multitaps are pretty fringe items, but the PCE everyone has one. Honestly, its kind of one of the most multi-player of all systems, ironically.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the TG-16 was basically doomed. No amount of marketing or strategy could have saved it. Its a hella Japanese system where most of the best games had tons of text. Twenty years ago Americans were even more illiterate and xenophobic than they are now. NEC couldn't have changed that.

[OldRover]

I've explained the tap thing before but people don't usually tend to understand it, heh. The system was designed for multiplayer from the start, and the single-port setup was a serious advantage for developers because the system was mind-numbingly easy to code multiplayer games for. An easy system to work with = more potential developers = more games produced = more money made = more happy kids.

[DragonmasterDan]

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the TG-16 was basically doomed. No amount of marketing or strategy could have saved it. Its a hella Japanese system where most of the best games had tons of text. Twenty years ago Americans were even more illiterate and xenophobic than they are now. NEC couldn't have changed that.

It definitely could have done a lot better, but I agree with you in the sense that I don't think it would have had any chance of being as popular as the SNES considering the circumstances.

The biggest problem was really that the best games were on CD, and CD-ROM prices at that time were just way too high to be competitive as a mass market item. Using HuCards only, even if the system got everything that came out for the PC Engine, and then a little more it still wouldn't have had a chance. It would have done better as a niche market item, but it never would have "won" the console war.

[DragonmasterDan]

Oh and Nintendo's third party licensing restrictions in the late 80s and early 90s certainly were a contributing factor.

[c0ldb33r]

great article. I didn't know that there was ever talk of Mortal Kombat on the duo. That would have been great. I wonder what it would look like.

One thing that could have happened would be to release older unreleased PCE games on the American Duo. Licensing fees would be a lot less with older games  and you'd basically get 2/3/4 games on one CD. I think that would have pushed some systems.

It would be kind of like the PCE compilations released on the PSP.

[BigT]

That's an interesting article.

I agree that it would have been hard for NEC to take the #1 spot in the US, but #2 or at least a large profitable niche were attainable.

Here are my initial thoughts:

* In terms of controllers, a pack-in (or built in TurboTap) would have been nice... a pack in would have helped with a couple problems, i.e., only one port and short cable length.  Also, a 3-button controller would have been nice around the time of launch (many games use run for this function anyways, and as silly as it seems, I recall my friends pointing out how superior the Genesis was because of an extra action button)... two buttons, just made it seem NES-like.

* They should have focused on the CD aspect of the system earlier on.  E.g., include a pack-in game and lower the price... or just market an integrated system from the start (CD plus core system portion side by side would be about the same size as the turbografx-16)... they did not abide by the current concept that you sometimes have to take an initial loss on hardware and then make it up on software sales)... making it an expensive add-on made the installed CD-rom base ridiculously small.  In 1989, they might have been able to get away with charging $149 for the base system initially with $249 for the CD with a bundle discount of $349 for both... with then price drops to $99, $199, and ~$249-279 when possible... that could have made things more palatable.

* In the end, more games and third parties would have helped as well... as soon as Bonk came out, that should have been added permanently as a pack-in along side Keith Courage.  Getting EA on board earlier would have helped... John Madden Duo showed that the system could handle those games... NHL was a huge reason I ever even touched a genesis... the TV Sports series (aside from TV Sports Basketball, with which I have a strange fascination, just did not compare).  Of course, the issue of actually localizing more games has been beat to death before.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Oh and Nintendo's third party licensing restrictions in the late 80s and early 90s certainly were a contributing factor.

This is the real problem.  Getting fucked out of games = lame.

Konami's presence on the TurboGrafx-16 was barely there. 
Capcom's was.. yeah.

We had no Contra, Jackal, MegaMan or Castlevania for the Turbob.  That blew


There are tons of games on the PCE that are not text haevy that should have made it to the US.  Why they didn't is beyond me.   Tons of shooters for one. 

It's like they just gave up and didn't bother.

[Damon Plus]

Nec should've tought of taking the European Market. Nintendo wasn't as strong/interested in it, and look Sega was number 1 here. But Nec did even worse than Nintendo. They released the Turbografx too late in 1992 in small quantities in UK, France, Spain, and I think, Italy. I still ask myself if it was a test market, or small importers who did that.

[nat]

I have to believe it was a test market, or just a ridiculously small legit release. The PAL TurboGrafx stuff has NEC labeling all over the packaging, I'm fairly sure if it hadn't been a legit release someone would've been facing some major legal action.

[DragonmasterDan]

Nec should've tought of taking the European Market. Nintendo wasn't as strong/interested in it, and look Sega was number 1 here. But Nec did even worse than Nintendo. They released the Turbografx too late in 1992 in small quantities in UK, France, Spain, and I think, Italy. I still ask myself if it was a test market, or small importers who did that.

It was in 1990.

I have to believe it was a test market, or just a ridiculously small legit release. The PAL TurboGrafx stuff has NEC labeling all over the packaging, I'm fairly sure if it hadn't been a legit release someone would've been facing some major legal action.

Yeah, it was a legit release, not only that but the system is design wise different from the US TurboGrafx, different colored plastic, different clock speed, AV coming out of the system itself. This wasn't a gray market import.

[c0ldb33r]

did the PAL games run at regular speed?

[BigT]

I bought one of the PAL systems as a curiosity... it has legit and official looking packaging.  Certainly seems like a limited official release.  The actual console has a nice gray finish.

[Damon Plus]

Nec should've tought of taking the European Market. Nintendo wasn't as strong/interested in it, and look Sega was number 1 here. But Nec did even worse than Nintendo. They released the Turbografx too late in 1992 in small quantities in UK, France, Spain, and I think, Italy. I still ask myself if it was a test market, or small importers who did that.

It was in 1990.

I have to believe it was a test market, or just a ridiculously small legit release. The PAL TurboGrafx stuff has NEC labeling all over the packaging, I'm fairly sure if it hadn't been a legit release someone would've been facing some major legal action.

Yeah, it was a legit release, not only that but the system is design wise different from the US TurboGrafx, different colored plastic, different clock speed, AV coming out of the system itself. This wasn't a gray market import.

Didn't thought of that. Also, it was 1991 in Spain, not 1992. Games run at 50 Hz.

[DragonmasterDan]

did the PAL games run at regular speed?

The PAL system ran at 50HZ as mentioned above. The games were just US HuCards so in certain cases they ran slow. Very similar to the Genesis/ European Mega Drive in the sense that they generally weren't modifying games to run correctly on a PAL system.

[OldRover]

They would run slower if they were timed with the vsync rather than the timer. Most games were times to vsync so yeah, I think most games would probably run slower.

[Joe Redifer]

I've explained the tap thing before but people don't usually tend to understand it, heh. The system was designed for multiplayer from the start, and the single-port setup was a serious advantage for developers because the system was mind-numbingly easy to code multiplayer games for. An easy system to work with = more potential developers = more games produced = more money made = more happy kids.

Not really buying it.  First, there aren't exactly a ton of multiplayer games for the PCE.  Secondly, there is no way you could fit 5 human beings in a single Japanese dwelling simultaneously.  The biggest dwelling in Japan is the size of my bathtub.  Third of all, most people wanted to play two player games, not 5.  So going from systems that included to ports and two controllers (NES and SMS) to one port and one controller with an idiotic accessory to buy if you even wanted to play two players is a really bad marketing decision.  Fourthly, "a single port is a huge advantage for developers because it is so easy to code multiplayer" doesn't even make any sense.  At all.  That's like saying "We sell hot dogs because hamburgers are so delicious".

Bottom line, they should have figured something else out, allowed for two players and if people wanted 5 they could buy the stupid adapter, just like the other systems.

[OldRover]

Not really buying it.  First, there aren't exactly a ton of multiplayer games for the PCE.  Secondly, there is no way you could fit 5 human beings in a single Japanese dwelling simultaneously.  The biggest dwelling in Japan is the size of my bathtub.  Third of all, most people wanted to play two player games, not 5.  So going from systems that included to ports and two controllers (NES and SMS) to one port and one controller with an idiotic accessory to buy if you even wanted to play two players is a really bad marketing decision.  Fourthly, "a single port is a huge advantage for developers because it is so easy to code multiplayer" doesn't even make any sense.  At all.  That's like saying "We sell hot dogs because hamburgers are so delicious".

Bottom line, they should have figured something else out, allowed for two players and if people wanted 5 they could buy the stupid adapter, just like the other systems.

You don't get it because you don't understand how the system works internally. It is far easier to use a single port to do multiplayer, because you are polling a single port on a timer rather than polling one port and then a second port on a timer. It keeps code size and complexity down. And it doesn't matter if a lot of games were made for it that supported five players... the plan was multiplayer from the start. It doesn't matter what you "buy"... reality and history are not subject to your approval.

[Flare65]

Very interesting readl.  Didn't know about the exclusive Mortal Kombat deal.  That would have been a game changer for sure.

[DragonmasterDan]

You don't get it because you don't understand how the system works internally. It is far easier to use a single port to do multiplayer, because you are polling a single port on a timer rather than polling one port and then a second port on a timer. It keeps code size and complexity down. And it doesn't matter if a lot of games were made for it that supported five players... the plan was multiplayer from the start. It doesn't matter what you "buy"... reality and history are not subject to your approval.

Yes, but the point he's making is they simply could have put the turbo tap internally in the system and given 2,3,4 or 5 ports to the buyer from day one without having to buy a multi-tap.

[OldRover]

That would have increased the size of the system by quite a bit.

[Joe Redifer]

Of the PC Engine, yes, but not the Turbo.

[c0ldb33r]

that would have been a neat addition. 5 ports on the front of the unit.

If they planned it, it would have looked good a la gamecube or dreamcast.

[VestCunt]

one of the biggest failures of the system was the necessity to buy extra adapters for multiplayer, composite video/stereo sound, etc.  That's just extremely stupid design. 

Let's not forget the "RPG Adapter":  the $400 CD-ROM!

[Joe Redifer]

No, that was the composite adapter that could also play a track from the Scorpions' "Winds of Change" album.

[VestCunt]

Man, I'm still pissed about all of the adapters/accessories required to do anything.  I was so happy when I bought my TurboGrafx in '92; and then I realized...

Want stereo sound?  Buy TurboBooster - $34.99
Want to play with a friend?  Buy TurboTap and TurboPad - $39.98
Want to save your game/scores?  Buy TurboBooster Plus - $59.99
Want to play the best-looking games on the system? Buy CD-ROM player - $299.99
Want to play the new best-looking games on the system?  Buy SuperCD ROM Card - $59.99
 

[c0ldb33r]

Want to play the best games? Buy PC Engine converter - $ priceless
Want to play kickass fighting games? Buy arcade card

[OldRover]

I never thought it was that bad, especially considering the low price of the TG16 when I bought it. When you add everything up, it comes out to about the same as other consoles of the era for the basics. CDROM drives weren't cheap for either console back then, so that's really a non-issue. I thought that the Booster accessories were kind of stupid when the CDROM accessory had all their function and then some, but hey... NEC liked their add-ons.

[henrycsc]

The TGCD and the TurboExpress were extremely expensive, but they were also very expensive to produce back then.
It would have been nice to at least have the tap packaged with an extra controller.  Didn't the genesis only come with one controller in the box?  Having a tap/pad combo might have evened out some of the whining. 

Also they could have provided an alternate version with the turbo booster plus built in.  That probably would have gotten a lot of attention - having memory save built into the console.  Would there have been a conflict with using such a system on a TGCD base that also has the memory save?

I personally like(d) the idea of the tap.  The 5 player turbo games were the first party games that I was exposed to.  Did they invent this concept or were there (more than 2 player) party games before NEC?

[DragonmasterDan]

The TGCD and the TurboExpress were extremely expensive, but they were also very expensive to produce back then.
It would have been nice to at least have the tap packaged with an extra controller.  Didn't the genesis only come with one controller in the box?  Having a tap/pad combo might have evened out some of the whining. 

The original model Genesis came with one controller, and RF switch an Altered Beast. It also had TWO controller ports, and an AV out port (yes, it required buying a cable but it was cheaper than a Turbo Booster), and a stereo sound headphone out port on the front. The original model SNES came with two controllers, stereo AV cables, and an RF switch (along with Super Mario World).

I personally like(d) the idea of the tap.  The 5 player turbo games were the first party games that I was exposed to.  Did they invent this concept or were there (more than 2 player) party games before NEC?

there were four player games on the NES that required the NES Satellite or Four Score. The Atari 5200 had some four player games as well.

[BigusSchmuck]

there were four player games on the NES that required the NES Satellite or Four Score. The Atari 5200 had some four player games as well.

The four player games on the NES were far and between. I don't even think the original Bomberman on the NES was four players. I do know that the SNES, Genesis at the time had few 4 player games and I believe it wasn't until the Saturn when we saw 8 player games. Anyway, as far as I know, the turbo/pce had quite a few more multiplayer games then the Genesis or the SNES even with the 1 port handicap.

[spenoza]

You don't get it because you don't understand how the system works internally. It is far easier to use a single port to do multiplayer, because you are polling a single port on a timer rather than polling one port and then a second port on a timer. It keeps code size and complexity down.

I would contend that there are other ways to have included more than one port and still have used the single timer polling setup. One would be to put all 5 ports on the system. This would have made the PC engine larger, true, but not a lot larger. The tap is mostly air and cables inside, but inside the system they could have used a different wiring scheme. Another solution would have been to use a different type of controller connector. Maybe one where the 1P port has only a couple pin holes but the 2P port is the same shape with more pins. Controllers have only a few pins and can connect to either port, but you can buy a 4 player tap that only works plugged into port 2 that gives you the full 5 controller array. Even better, have two ports and a mediating chip that can run the ports in two different modes. If a controller is connected it polls the port one way and if a tap is connected to one or both it polls them a different way. The chip then passes up the data to the system in a standardized fashion regardless of whether it is getting the input from a controller connected directly or via a tap. Remove the need of the programmer to have to interpret controller input. There are just off the top of my head and not very elegant. I'm sure a dedicated hardware engineer could do a lot better.

I do still think the single controller port looked cool on the PCE due to the size. On the TG it just looked stupid. The whole "multiplayer by design" thing seems like a misread of the readiness of the market, especially given how many games were released that didn't even have 2 player play. Sure, it might have been easier to program, but having to buy another peripheral means you're programming to a smaller audience, and especially in Japan, you're not likely to have more than two people in front of a TV at any given time, anyway. The 5-player thing would definitely have been more of an advantage in the US. If only NEC/TTI had managed to attract some kind of critical sports support ('cause TV Sports just didn't do it). A good sports series tie-up and 5 controller ports on the front of the system could have been something of a marketing coup. What if they'd struck a deal with EA?

I never thought it was that bad, especially considering the low price of the TG16 when I bought it. When you add everything up, it comes out to about the same as other consoles of the era for the basics.

The price for the TG was only lower once the market for the TG was already on the decline. Not major decline yet, but decline all the same. I bought my system when the price dropped to $99 (but didn't yet have Bonk as the pack-in) and the other systems were still $149, but at that time only Toys R Us still had a great selection. EB and Software Etc had acceptable shelf space devoted to the system (a single, square patch of wall), but I never saw TG stuff at Sears, very little at KB, and never at the big box stores. The only games I remember being released new once I'd bought my system came from TTI or WD. Every NEC game was already pretty much on the market by the time the price dropped, IIRC.

[DragonmasterDan]

The four player games on the NES were far and between. I don't even think the original Bomberman on the NES was four players. I do know that the SNES, Genesis at the time had few 4 player games and I believe it wasn't until the Saturn when we saw 8 player games. Anyway, as far as I know, the turbo/pce had quite a few more multiplayer games then the Genesis or the SNES even with the 1 port handicap.

Yeah, the original Bomberman does not support it, but a lot of games did. Per Wikipedia,

    * Bomberman II
    * Danny Sullivan's Indy Heat
    * Gauntlet II
    * Greg Norman's Golf Power
    * Harlem Globetrotters
    * Kings of the Beach
    * Magic Johnson's Fast Break
    * Monster Truck Rally
    * M.U.L.E.[2]
    * NES Play Action Football
    * A Nightmare on Elm Street
    * Nintendo World Cup
    * R.C. Pro-Am II
    * Rackets & Rivals
    * Roundball: 2 on 2 Challenge
     * Spot
    * Smash TV
    * Super Off Road
    * Super Jeopardy!
    * Super Spike V'Ball
    * Swords and Serpents
    * Top Players' Tennis

That's 22 games, while not a ton of games, it's definitely notable.

[Arkhan Asylum]

They should have just wired the turbo tap internally and attached it to the back of the controller port.

But, it would look really retarded with 5 controller ports in the front of it. 

It's not a big deal for the PCE, since the PCE succeeded hardcore there.

But the Turbob should've had the tap wired up inside.

[DragonmasterDan]

They should have just wired the turbo tap internally and attached it to the back of the controller port.

But, it would look really retarded with 5 controller ports in the front of it. 

It's not a big deal for the PCE, since the PCE succeeded hardcore there.

But the Turbob should've had the tap wired up inside.

I made a mock up of what one would look like with three in front, keep in mind this is of full size TG16 ports and not the smaller mini ports used on the Duo and PC engine. You could very easily put the extra 2 or 3 ports on the side of the system.

[Arkhan Asylum]

You could very easily put the extra 2 or 3 ports on the side of the system.

This would be a very poor idea.

It wouldn't sit right on shelves, someone would undoubtedly twist the unit around while moving around flailing in the middle of super volleyball.

It reminds me of the minimig, that stupid amiga clone that has ports on every friggin side, so you can't sit the thing anywhere nicely.  Theres octopus wires everywhere

[DragonmasterDan]

This would be a very poor idea.

It wouldn't sit right on shelves, someone would undoubtedly twist the unit around while moving around flailing in the middle of super volleyball.

It reminds me of the minimig, that stupid amiga clone that has ports on every friggin side, so you can't sit the thing anywhere nicely.  Theres octopus wires everywhere

You could also just put them further over on the lefthand side of the system. I'm just saying considering the size of the TG16 it's very easy to include five ports on the system.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Yeah if you stuck all 5 in a row on the front, I'd be down.

I thought about doing it myself with my TurboTap, but I like the turbo tap too much to open it and ruin it.

[Joe Redifer]

They should have used the Mini DINs as ports, not the giganto-DINs.

[DragonmasterDan]

They should have used the Mini DINs as ports, not the giganto-DINs.

No argument here, I had repeated problems with the pins on the regular DINs breaking off and having to replace controllers. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[NecroPhile]

Not much that hasn't been discussed here ad naseum, but this caught my eye:

... to lesser-known marvels like the multiplayer puzzle game Color Wars.

I wonder why this particular title caught the author's attention; it seemed pretty blah to me.

[Joe Redifer]

Does anyone know why the giant DINs were used for the TurboGrafx-16 instead of the mini-DIN used on the PCE?  Was this sort sort of sick and twisted region protection?

[BigusSchmuck]

Does anyone know why the giant DINs were used for the TurboGrafx-16 instead of the mini-DIN used on the PCE?  Was this sort sort of sick and twisted region protection?

I often wondered that too, then again you could always get a converter from the mini-din to the big dins, but I guess the question I have is it possible to to use turbo sticks with the converter on a japanese duo?

[nat]

I don't see why not, but if you're going that route, why not just buy a Japanese TurboStick instead? They're bottom-weighted, unlike the U.S. ones.

[BigusSchmuck]

I don't see why not, but if you're going that route, why not just buy a Japanese TurboStick instead? They're bottom-weighted, unlike the U.S. ones.

Cause I already got em ^^. Plus, I don't feel like paying $40 bucks for a Japanese turbo stick on ebay where I got these for $10 a piece brand new from TZD back in the late 90s. However, I was shocked to find out my little 3 dollar converter is 25 dollars on the bay these days....

[DragonmasterDan]

I don't see why not, but if you're going that route, why not just buy a Japanese TurboStick instead? They're bottom-weighted, unlike the U.S. ones.

With the current low dollar to yen value and high shipping costs from Japan, it's definitely easier to buy the US Turbo sticks if you come across them. A store nearby had like 2 or 3 just sitting about a year ago, unfortunately I rarely use my actual TG16 opting instead to use the Duo, and I don't own an adapter, otherwise I would have bought one.

[DragonmasterDan]

I have to believe it was a test market, or just a ridiculously small legit release. The PAL TurboGrafx stuff has NEC labeling all over the packaging, I'm fairly sure if it hadn't been a legit release someone would've been facing some major legal action.

I had been meaning to put this up but had forgotten over the past few days. So just to clear up any misconceptions the PAL TurboGrafx is legit,  just looking at the bottom of the PAL TurboGrafx it's easily apparent that this is a legit item.