PC Engine AV Mod

[esteban]

The PlayChoice 10 uses the same games that are on the NES!  I think the romfiles might be a bit different due to the fact that some of the color locations are swapped, but in the end you are playing the same exact game... in RGB.  Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying.  There was even an arcade machine that ran Genesis games.  Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? 

There was a Jamma -based TG-16 arcade machine that used modified TG-16 hardware. I lost my bid to the one and only time I saw it on ebay, but D-Lite was kind enough to scan the instructions that came with it. I don't know if he ever got around to getting the kit working, but I'm hoping one day to see this documented . I'll reply to your other points tomorrow morning .

You folks have completely and utterly confused every point I made in my initial post.

[termis]

Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? 

I'm not sure if it was a pirated board or not, but I first played Kato Chan & Ken Chan in an arcade machine in Korea 20 some odd years ago.  Like some playchoice-10 machines, a single credit bought some play time, as opposed to playing until you ran out of men.

And to keep it on topic, I have no idea whether that was in RGB or not 

(Dang, you beat me to the "post" button stevek666)

[Keranu]

The PlayChoice 10 uses the same games that are on the NES!  I think the romfiles might be a bit different due to the fact that some of the color locations are swapped, but in the end you are playing the same exact game... in RGB.  Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying.  There was even an arcade machine that ran Genesis games.  Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? 

Actually you're right, I'm not understanding what you are saying! At least when it comes to the PlayChoice cabinets, because I don't get the point you're trying to make with it. I know what Playchoices are and understand that arcade monitors use RGB, but I don't get how this is helping your arguement any. Are you saying I should compare the picture quality of a Playchoice cabinet with a NES running in composite?

[Joe Redifer]

You said arcades are different but home consoles are designed around composite.  If Nintendo designed their machine to have the best display in composite, why wouldn't the PlayChoice 10 use composite as well?  Why would they hook it up via RGB and risk losing all of the magical properties that the dithering has?  My whole point is this:  If you think arcades look nice, then you'd think home consoles in RGB would look nice... as in better than composite.  I can understand not wanting to spend the money on it, though.

[Spector]

Composite/rf is, in my opinion, better for composite.rf-era machines, and that means pre-Playstation. When I play Megadrive games near perfectly emulated on Xbox, the one thing I don't like is the blockiness. I can see the individual pixels, and I always hated that.

It's the same with music. Records made before the 1980s are best heard on vinyl, not CD.

[Joe Redifer]

Keep in mind that emulators on the Xbox upscale.  They do not show the games in their native resolution and that is the reason for their blockiness.  You can see the individual pixels via composite and RF on the real systems, lest ye forget.  Of course one can ask why did all the other machines besides the NES and the PC Engine provide a direct means to get RGB out of the system, especially if composite looked so much better?

[Seldane]

I remember a couple of years ago (2000?) when I had a TV that didn't support RGB. I used composite for everything I had (even PS2, etc) and I thought it looked good. When I got a new TV that HAD RGB support, I used it on the systems that supported it, liked it, had to mod my other systems so that they would support it as well, and now I can't even look at composite anymore. I think RGB would have that effect on everybody.

[PCEngineHell]

You said arcades are different but home consoles are designed around composite.  If Nintendo designed their machine to have the best display in composite, why wouldn't the PlayChoice 10 use composite as well? 

Well,since the TV home consumer market in the USA in the 80ies mainly supported RF you were actually lucky the first Nes even offered composite out at all. As for the Play Choice 10,its arcade hardware,and on arcade hardware they use RGB,its standard. Wether it looked good picture quality wise or not I don't think really mattered,it was just cheaper to do RGB back then. A RGB monitor and arcade board in a arcade cab doesn't use what was considered back then expensive parts for RF or composite function. If composite or RF woulda been cheaper then they most likely woulda used it in the Playchoice 10 instead of RGB. I think your forgetting how expensive good quality color tvs were in the 80ies. We paid over $350 for a 19 in. Emerson that only supported RF back in 1988. My aunt and uncle in the 80ies worked for Godwins arcade distribution,and I remember how my uncle used to bitch about how the RGB tubes were really cheap compared to tvs.

He was also one of those goofs that had the magnification lens attached to his 20 inch tv to get a larger picture for years because he was too cheap to buy a newer larger tv set.

[SharkSkin-Man]

Composite/rf is, in my opinion, better for composite.rf-era machines, and that means pre-Playstation. When I play Megadrive games near perfectly emulated on Xbox, the one thing I don't like is the blockiness. I can see the individual pixels, and I always hated that.

It's the same with music. Records made before the 1980s are best heard on vinyl, not CD.

Composite era?

PC Engine, Megadrive, Super Famicom up to PlayStation2 is the RGB era. Everything after that is component/VGA/HDMI.
RGB SCART is 1970s technology.

When the PC-Engine and soon after the MegaDrive found their way to UK importers a pretty large % of kids I knew were using RGB monitors or RGB SCART TVs. They were readily available at the time (infact a good quality, proper low-res RGB screen is MUCH harder to find now than it was then).

Everytime I see screenshots of US gamers using composite on old 2D console games I thank the lord I had access to decent screens back then.

Do people really think the developers were designing and testing these games using a consumer TV with an RF or composite connection?

[Seldane]

While Mega Drive, SNES, etc offered RGB natively, the PC Engine didn't. So I wouldn't consider it an RGB era console (whatever that means). Composite is 50's standard, by the way.

[SharkSkin-Man]

RGB era to me (i.e. in the UK) = the time when the best possible picture for the available systems was RGB. Which is everything up to PS2 (excluding the handful of progressive PS2 titles).

Yeah you had to mod the PCE, but this was common place right from the early days of UK PCE imports. Quite a few places sold them with hardwired Scart cables.

[Spector]

RGB era to me (i.e. in the UK) = the time when the best possible picture for the available systems was RGB. Which is everything up to PS2 (excluding the handful of progressive PS2 titles).

Yeah you had to mod the PCE, but this was common place right from the early days of UK PCE imports. Quite a few places sold them with hardwired Scart cables.

I don't think I ever saw a single RGB display from a computer or console in the 80s or early 90s in anyones house. It was pretty rare in reality, at least in the UK.

[SharkSkin-Man]

I don't think I ever saw a single RGB display from a computer or console in the 80s or early 90s in anyones house. It was pretty rare in reality, at least in the UK.

WTF! Massive amounts of Commodore and Philips RGB screens were sold with Amigas and STs. Pretty certain some console shops even sold them (Shekhana on Tottenham Court Road??).

As for TVs, by the time I had a Super Famicom me and my brother had two cheap 14" TVs for games (one Toshiba, one Sharp) both had RGB SCART (and the Sharp is still alive and kicking to this day).

And like I said, when the PC-Engine was released RGB screens were common enough that some retailers sold the consoles RGB SCART hardwired.

[PCEngineHell]

Composite/rf is, in my opinion, better for composite.rf-era machines, and that means pre-Playstation. When I play Megadrive games near perfectly emulated on Xbox, the one thing I don't like is the blockiness. I can see the individual pixels, and I always hated that.

It's the same with music. Records made before the 1980s are best heard on vinyl, not CD.

Composite era?

PC Engine, Megadrive, Super Famicom up to PlayStation2 is the RGB era. Everything after that is component/VGA/HDMI.
RGB SCART is 1970s technology.

When the PC-Engine and soon after the MegaDrive found their way to UK importers a pretty large % of kids I knew were using RGB monitors or RGB SCART TVs. They were readily available at the time (infact a good quality, proper low-res RGB screen is MUCH harder to find now than it was then).

Everytime I see screenshots of US gamers using composite on old 2D console games I thank the lord I had access to decent screens back then.

Do people really think the developers were designing and testing these games using a consumer TV with an RF or composite connection?

You know,I'm not quite sure what the deal is with people in the UK assuming the rest of the world had scart or RGB as  a easy option. Yea,Scart has been around since the late 70ies,in YOUR country,not OURS.

As for the Pc-Engine scene in the UK in the 80ies,yea it did have a good one. But I got a question,since everyone was using their Pc-Engine in RGB,does that mean everyone was doing RGB mods? I have never seen a actual RGB cable that will tap RGB off the expansion port. The 80ies may have been a RGB era for you,but for us it was NTSC composite and RF.

[Joe Redifer]

Actually it would be completely possible to build an RGB cable with a giganto-huge connector that fits on the back of the PC Engine and outputs RGB.  Of course that would eliminate playing CD games.  Man, NEC could have thought things through a little more when providing the outputs on their system. They were the only ones without a jack that did RGB, if you don't count the expansion bus.

[Keranu]

You said arcades are different but home consoles are designed around composite.  If Nintendo designed their machine to have the best display in composite, why wouldn't the PlayChoice 10 use composite as well?  Why would they hook it up via RGB and risk losing all of the magical properties that the dithering has?  My whole point is this:  If you think arcades look nice, then you'd think home consoles in RGB would look nice... as in better than composite.  I can understand not wanting to spend the money on it, though.

I'm not a tech person, so I don't know how possible it is to use composite in a arcade cabinet. The point is they took their NES hardware, hooked it up in the arcade via RGB since that's what arcade games generally used and decided to make a few bucks in the arcade from kids who weren't playing NES at home. They didn't care about how the NES graphics would look on the arcade monitor .

I remember a couple of years ago (2000?) when I had a TV that didn't support RGB. I used composite for everything I had (even PS2, etc) and I thought it looked good. When I got a new TV that HAD RGB support, I used it on the systems that supported it, liked it, had to mod my other systems so that they would support it as well, and now I can't even look at composite anymore. I think RGB would have that effect on everybody.

For me personally, I wouldn't spend my money on technically improving my video for older systems and having my ancient consoles being cut open and having new wires installed into them and what not. Furthermore, I would much rather spend the money on buying a big ass TV and using my pimped out RF and composite on that  .

Actually it would be completely possible to build an RGB cable with a giganto-huge connector that fits on the back of the PC Engine and outputs RGB.  Of course that would eliminate playing CD games.  Man, NEC could have thought things through a little more when providing the outputs on their system. They were the only ones without a jack that did RGB, if you don't count the expansion bus.

Why would they need to add a jack that did RGB back then? The vast majority of gamers back then were using RF, it was probably something they didn't even need to think about.

[SharkSkin-Man]

As for the Pc-Engine scene in the UK in the 80ies,yea it did have a good one. But I got a question,since everyone was using their Pc-Engine in RGB,does that mean everyone was doing RGB mods?

Yeah, a lot of importers were RGB modding the machines they sold. This was born out of necessity as much as anything else - at the time most UK TVs would not display a NTSC 3.58 signal via RF/Composite, you would either get a rolling picture or a stable but black and white one. If you bought an import Megadrive, Super Famicom, NeoGeo etc you would normally get a SCART cable with it too.

The most common mod was a hole drilled at the side of the PCE casing and running a hardwired SCART cable out of it.

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I do remember seeing some where a computer ribbon cable with a scart plug on the end was fed through the gap at the rear of the machine above the interface connector (this was before the CD-ROM was released obviously).

[Seldane]

For me personally, I wouldn't spend my money on technically improving my video for older systems and having my ancient consoles being cut open and having new wires installed into them and what not. Furthermore, I would much rather spend the money on buying a big ass TV and using my pimped out RF and composite on that  .

I didn't spend any money on improving the video for my systems, I bought a big ass TV and used the rgb cables I previously had for all my systems (because they all provided RGB natively - Mega Drive, SNES, Saturn, etc etc).

[CrackTiger]

The PlayChoice 10 uses the same games that are on the NES!  I think the romfiles might be a bit different due to the fact that some of the color locations are swapped, but in the end you are playing the same exact game... in RGB.  Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying.  There was even an arcade machine that ran Genesis games.  Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? 

There was a Jamma -based TG-16 arcade machine that used modified TG-16 hardware. I lost my bid to the one and only time I saw it on ebay, but D-Lite was kind enough to scan the instructions that came with it. I don't know if he ever got around to getting the kit working, but I'm hoping one day to see this documented . I'll reply to your other points tomorrow morning .

You folks have completely and utterly confused every point I made in my initial post.

The Bloody Wolf arcade is basically a PC Engine.

Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine? 

I'm not sure if it was a pirated board or not, but I first played Kato Chan & Ken Chan in an arcade machine in Korea 20 some odd years ago.  Like some playchoice-10 machines, a single credit bought some play time, as opposed to playing until you ran out of men.

And to keep it on topic, I have no idea whether that was in RGB or not 

(Dang, you beat me to the "post" button stevek666)

I once saw a SMB2 arcade like that. It looked like a total custom job.

Quote from: Joe
I can tell when they use dithering on composite as well.  It's not like the dithering blurs into its own brand new color.  Anyone who thinks it does either needs to get their eyes checked or owns a cheap-ass TV from Wal*Mart.  Instead of blending into a new color, dithering Turbo/PCE games instead flicker/shimmer back and forth like mad!
I can also tell when dithering is used on composite. In my opinion, the composite does a better job "blending" the dithering though. Also if dithering isn't used to blend in a new shade of color, then what is it for? You mentioned earlier that some Turbo games were forced to use dithering because there weren't enough shades available, but this doesn't make sense to me if dithering isn't used for "blending in" colors.

Although dithering is usually used to blend colors, the blending is often ruined by the composite of some TV's because often it really does blur into its own brand new color(but not the color intended).

In these cases, it's the more obvious dithering, like big strips of wire fence that you do notice.


-I've read several times here "blockiness" used to describe something perceived to be pixelated and has caused some confusion. I think some people are using 'blockiness' to describe the edges of sprites and such where others are using it to describe the pixels of shading/dithering.

When you can make out most of the pixels of a game's graphics in composite, what's really being lost in the jump to RGB/etc when you just get to make out the last 25+% of the pixels?


From what I've read of explanations of personal preference from diehard composite loving fanboys like Steve, it sounds like you guys only have a problem with the sharpness/clear image of everything above composite and simply aren't bothered by some of the unfortunate effects(like shimmering).

You guys must love all the classic compilations and VC Turbo games that give you the vibrant color of the real graphics(that you normally only see on moldy consoles through better than composite output) while blurring out all those annoying pixels.


I'm too tired to figure out which emoticons to put where, so feel free to match any of the following faces to any sentences that sound too serious or negative:    O:)                   

[Joe Redifer]

I think it's funny how some people say RF/Composite/S-video is OK but not RGB.  Personally I'd put S-video closer to RGB than to Composite.  It is much cleaner, and you only get a little bit of color bleed (usually in the reds).  With my Saturn and SNES it can be pretty difficult to tell the difference between S-video and RGB unless you know exactly what to look for (the hearts in Castlevania IV no longer smear, etc).

Also, I wanted to point out that dithering is not bad.  It can be used when the "magic" of composite isn't even in the equation, like DS games.  Look at this picture I took of "Phoenix Wright 2: Phoenix Touches the Judge Inappropriately":



As you can see, there is plenty of dithering that can be seen by the naked eye with no composite to perform its magic or sorcery to blend it into a new color.  It's simply part of the artwork.  That's not a bad thing.  Same goes with ancient systems that time has long forgotten like the TurboGrafx-16.

[ccovell]

While Mega Drive, SNES, etc offered RGB natively, the PC Engine didn't. So I wouldn't consider it an RGB era console (whatever that means). Composite is 50's standard, by the way.

In arguments such as these, you have to choose your words carefully.  Of course, the PCE outputs RGB "natively".  Everything you would want is available out the back.  NEC just didn't sell any RGB cables for their system.  One (but not me...) could argue that the SMS and MD were in the same situation: they both output RGB but Sega (of Japan) didn't release RGB cables for them, AFAIK.  Fortunately, Micomsoft stepped in and sold RGB cables and/or S-Video conversion boxes.

[GUTS]

This kind of reminds me of playing old Gameboy games. In my house, I have a variety of Gameboy systems: Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, and GBA SP. When I have enough batteries laying around (I really need to get an AC adapter), I love to play the old Gameboy games on the original Gameboy, with it's green screen glory. To me it just feels nicer to play these older games for what they were designed for and it brings out the best experience of Gameboy to me. Doesn't mean I don't like to play it on the Pocket or SP, but I can't help but loving these games on the original the most. So you play your games on your Gameboy and I'll play mine on mine Smile

Haha dude I thought I was the only one who did that!  There are some really, really sweet old gameboy games from the green & black days but they're just not as much fun colorized.  I have way more fun playing them on an old puke Gameboy.

[Keranu]

Also, I wanted to point out that dithering is not bad.  It can be used when the "magic" of composite isn't even in the equation, like DS games.  Look at this picture I took of "Phoenix Wright 2: Phoenix Touches the Judge Inappropriately":



As you can see, there is plenty of dithering that can be seen by the naked eye with no composite to perform its magic or sorcery to blend it into a new color.  It's simply part of the artwork.  That's not a bad thing.  Same goes with ancient systems that time has long forgotten like the TurboGrafx-16.

Actually I like to think of portable games using their own sort of "magic" for dithering and that's due to their smaller screen. When a dithered image is smaller, it's harder to make out the pixel and it once again creates that magical effect again. But you're right, dithering isn't a bad thing at all and can look nice sometimes without being blended - as long as it's not overdone. Some Genesis games really pushed dithering to look like more colorful than it actually was and this is one of those cases where you really don't want to be playing it with crystal clear picture on an emulator, in my opinion. So I'm not saying that playing PCE or Genesis games with light dithering in RGB or any format that defines the dithering more is a bad thing, I think it just looks a lil better when done in composite.

[Joe Redifer]

No, some Genesis games just had morons for art designers.  Eternal Champions, anyone?  I cannot stand the look of that game nor its CD sequel.  It is a dithered mess, and I have only ever played them in composite.  As you know, bad design is bad design.  And a lot of the US-made Genesis games fall into that category, I feel.

[Keranu]

But you wanna know how to make Eternal Champions look even worse? Play it in an emulator : .

[Joe Redifer]

Playing...  looks just as bad as I remember it, though a bit sharper.  Man even the sound is some of the worst ever to meet my ears.  Did they... dither the sound, too???

[Keranu]

Nah, I think they just decided to take a big shit on the game. ;)

[Joe Redifer]

On it?  I was under the assumption that it was, in fact, the turd.

[Keranu]

Well I guess it beats Fat Man. If Eternal Champions is a turd then Fat Man is diarrhea. 

[esteban]

This is a rather long post, but hopefully it will clear things up .

In defense of RF/composite

I think it's funny how some people say RF/Composite/S-video is OK but not RGB.  Personally I'd put S-video closer to RGB than to Composite.  It is much cleaner, and you only get a little bit of color bleed (usually in the reds).  With my Saturn and SNES it can be pretty difficult to tell the difference between S-video and RGB unless you know exactly what to look for (the hearts in Castlevania IV no longer smear, etc).

Nintendo released a S-video cable for SNES, that is why S-video is included in my list of pre-32-bit consoles. It is the exception, as far as stock hardware goes on pre- 32-bit consoles...

1. How I Play
I guess I wasn't clear enough in my prior posts: I prefer to play consoles without any modifications; I play them as they were originally manufactured for the masses. I also use the standard controllers (occasionally I'll use additional first- or third- party controllers, but 99% of the time I use the standard pads). So, even though I think the Genesis 3-button controllers are less-than-mediocre, I still use them (and they have grown on me, I must admit, even if they remain my least favorite).  I'm not the biggest fan of the SMS controllers, either (due to the awkward d-pad) but I have bigger complaints with the older joysticks (Atari 7800) ...

I don't have an A/V switch box, so I only have 2-3 consoles hooked up to my TV at any given time. As a result, I actually use RF because it acts as a third input (I only have two composite inputs on my TV).

Now, I started using RF out of necessity years ago... and I never thought I'd keep using it... but I have! I should point out that I always have some sort of "oldie" console hooked up (i.e. Colecovision, Intellivision, Atari 2600/5200/7800) and sometimes I'll pull out other stuff... so I'm not that crazy.


2. Why I Play Like This
Believe it or not, I can afford to buy a fancier TV, and I can also afford to get my consoles modded if I chose to do so. I don't have tons of money budgeted for my hobbies, but I could have RGB if I wanted.

But I don't want RGB or component.

Joe thought that maybe this was due to nostalgia:

I think the key thing here is nostalgia.  You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present.  That's gotta be it.

I can tell you that my preferences have absolutely nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with approaching video games as living cultural artifacts. The cultural / historical context of video games (and computers) is fascinating to me. I enjoy reading old computer publications, I write goofy programs in BASIC for Apple ][ and C64 and countless other dorky things.

Basically, I approach video games as both a form of entertainment and as a field with a rich history that should be explored, experienced, even studied. I know I'm a dork, but I don't care.

I think video games are a legitimate art form (highly commercialized and often low-brow, but yes, an art), etc. etc.

Now, nostalgia can be defined various ways, but it boils down to a "longing for the past, often an idealized, unrealistic past."

I'm not motivated by nostalgia but by a desire to understand the history of creating, marketing, consuming and playing video games. 

And, being the dork that I am, I approach this like an archeologist or historian would: I want to experience consoles as the masses did. Hence no hardware modifications, standard controllers, old-skool televisions, etc.

But wait, there's more!


3. Cleanest video signal vs. Historical accuracy

Remember my "theory" of digital art? Here it is in a nutshell:

I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics.

We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with ...
My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.

I suppose I should elaborate with some examples. Basically, I am saying that various stock hardware (console + display) configurations = a medium. A "medium" simply refers to the "stuff" artistic work is made out of.

TG-16 / Duo / SMS / Genny / etc. + RF/Composite + standard TV = medium
SNES + RF/Composite/s-video + standardTV = medium
arcade / jamma / etc. + RGB + monitor = medium

(I'll refrain from listing computer configurations, but they are mediums as well... and some even supported RF!).

Now, often, we think about digital art in its purest form (i.e. what you'd see via RGB / component, or on the designer's computer workstation). This version of the art is often placed in highest esteem, since it is considered the purest, least adulterated form.

According to Joe & company, RGB / component best captures the essence of art. Accordingly, there is a strong desire to modify consoles and "unleash" the purity.

I am offering an alternative viewpoint, one that squarely challenges how we define the "purity" and "essence" of a video game.

I am suggesting that the "true" essence of a video game can be defined by how the manufacturers marketed it and the masses experienced it: with stock consoles, standard displays, etc. 

If stock consoles and displays are the medium, then video game aesthetics can be appreciated and judged accordingly:

I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics.

We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with ...
My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.

Technical "inferiority" is an important (dare I say crucial) aspect of video game aesthetics! It is beautiful, despite, or rather due to, the "flaws"! It is what the masses experienced -- and thus the "true" history and culture of video games.

RF/composite is the best way to capture the "true" history of aesthetics for SMS, NES, TG-16, Genny, etc.

So, I am not anti-RGB, nor am I simply ignorant of RGB.

Also, I don't think RF/composite is unequivocally better than RGB. Rather, I argue that RF/composite is *still* relevant today and always will be! (as far as certain consoles are concerned).


-------------
Joe, I think you and I are both purists, but we define the purity differently.

You strive to unleash the RGB purity (beauty) that has been trapped inside stock consoles. You want to experience art in its contemporary context: newer "stock" technology.

I, on the other hand, strive to appreciate the purity (beauty) of RF / composite. That is, to experience art in its original context.

--------------

So do you folks understand where I'm coming from now? Or have I just made things more confusing? I should probably proof-read this, but I  finished my coffee and now I have to get some chores done .

EDIT:
* Arcade games are a different medium, with a different set of aesthetic standards.
* Keranu's example about playing original GB games on the original GB fits nicely into this discussion. I do the same thing as well (not just for the screen, but to hear the little speaker pumpin' out the tunes!)
* My apoligies to the folks in UK / Europe, but since NEC never officially marketed the PCE in your country, you are not representative of the Japanese / North American NTSC "masses." Your history is still very important and needs to be documented, especially the role played by the importers.
*

[ccovell]

Jeez, next thing you're going to be quoting Marshall MacLuhan.  O:)

[Joe Redifer]

Wasn't there a PAL TurboGrafx released in Europe?  Why yes, there was!

I still say it is nostalgia.  You want to experience the games as they were played back then by the majority.  That can be defined as nostalgia.  You want to give them that 1980-1990's context each time you play.  Me?  I just want the games to look as good as they are able to with the real systems.  It kicks much ass that I can play ancient systems in component video, which wasn't even around at the time.  I don't play games for their historical context, I play them to have fun.  And to paraphrase ccovell, I like my eyes to have a treat as well.  Same goes with the audio.  I like to listen in stereo even though the majority of people listened in mono.  You can't argue that mono is better than stereo.

Suffering with a 3 button Genesis pad just for the sake of playing with the original pad is... well...  you're special.

[Seldane]

I'm playing in mono sound. Mono rules, and the games were INTENDED to be played with mono speakers. It makes it harder to hear how poor the sound quality was. ;)

;)

   ;)

[Spector]

Wasn't there a PAL TurboGrafx released in Europe?  Why yes, there was!

I still say it is nostalgia.  You want to experience the games as they were played back then by the majority.  That can be defined as nostalgia.  You want to give them that 1980-1990's context each time you play.  Me?  I just want the games to look as good as they are able to with the real systems.  It kicks much ass that I can play ancient systems in component video, which wasn't even around at the time.  I don't play games for their historical context, I play them to have fun.  And to paraphrase ccovell, I like my eyes to have a treat as well.  Same goes with the audio.  I like to listen in stereo even though the majority of people listened in mono.  You can't argue that mono is better than stereo.

The way you're arguing that tells me that I have to go for A/V, especially the bit about mono and stereo. You're coming from the "more is more" camp, the same people that believe CD's are always better for music than vinyl. It's a technician's stance, really, which is fair enough, but not mine.

[esteban]

Jeez, next thing you're going to be quoting Marshall MacLuhan.  O:)

Hahahaha. I know .


(OK, this is all in good fun, Joe . It's fun to read your responses.)

Wasn't there a PAL TurboGrafx released in Europe?  Why yes, there was!

Yes, a gray market PAL unit saw extremely limited release... and we don't even know what countries actually received them (Spain seems to be one of them). The PCE import scene was incredibly more robust than the PAL TurboGrafx. The very fact that we can't verify much of the history of the PAL TG speaks to its obscurity. I was the one who asked John Greiner (of Hudson) about the PAL TG-16 and he was kind enough to answer. To date, his account is the most definitive, and it consists of a short paragraph.

PAL TG is the least-representative NEC console.

I still say it is nostalgia.  You want to experience the games as they were played back then by the majority.  That can be defined as nostalgia.  You want to give them that 1980-1990's context each time you play.  Me?  I just want the games to look as good as they are able to with the real systems.  It kicks much ass that I can play ancient systems in component video, which wasn't even around at the time.  I don't play games for their historical context, I play them to have fun.

Somehow, you've forgotten that I said:

Basically, I approach video games as both a form of entertainment and as a field with a rich history that should be explored, experienced, even studied. I know I'm a dork, but I don't care.

I friggin' love playing games. I play games to have fun. I don't know where you got the mistaken idea that I don't enjoy playing games. You seem to think that "enjoying something" and "thinking about it" are mutually exlcusive. They are not. This may shock you, but when I read books, watch movies, or listen to music, I think about them. I'm interested in them. Zombie films or art films, grand literature or trashy novellas... I think about them, try to learn more about them. In fact, it's fun to compare / contrast "high-brow" and "low-brow" pop culture. I think the distinction is silly, but the differnt status and esteem that folks attribute to them is bewildering at times.

If you think about it, I doubt that you are passive consumer. You're here, on these boards. You've taken the time to share your insights and help others (i.e. writing articles at sega-16), etc. I don't see any difference between us.

I'm not writing a doctoral thesis. I'm just trying to connect the dots while I'm having fun!

As far as nostalgia is concerned: It strikes me that any interest in the past qualifies as "nostalgia" to you. Nostalgia is distinct from the pursuit of history.  Do you think scientists have "nostalgia" for the origins of the universe, simply because their object of study is, literally, in the past? Do you think all historians are motivated by "nostalgia"? A friend of mine is an sociologist, and, I must confess, she really is nostalgic for the Boy Scouts of yesteryear (actually, she studies gender relations in youth organizations, and how they change, over time).

Nostalgia is a derogatory term that is used profusely in our hobby, especially when older consoles, games, and genres are discussed. You insult me by saying I'm motiviated my nostalgia, because you are essentially saying that there is no merit to RF/composite (for the reasons I described). You are saying there is no merit to my curiousity or pursuits.

Other folks (not you, Joe) will add that most older games are not even playable anymore... that folks who still play them are blinded by nostalgia, and that if it were not for their nostalgia, they would realize that most older games no longer have any merit (by contemporary standards). Hey, you seem to employ the same logic in your attitude towards RF/composite!

Hogwash!

I can't change anyone's opinions on a game, but please don't insult me by saying that I'm the one deluded by nostalgia.

If anything, I would say that it is the folks today who are deluded into thinking that anything less than RGB will "hurt their eyes". Pretty soon you'll be telling me that you refuse to watch any tv show or movie that isn't HD, simply because the old standards look so bad on HDTV's.

But what about simply having fun and enjoying stuff? I bet you'll still watch your favorite films / tv shows, even if they aren't HD (yet!). You'll still play your favorite games, too, wouldn't you, if God decreed "though shalt have no RGB!"

I know I'd still listen to my favorite music, even if a speaker blew out.

And to paraphrase ccovell, I like my eyes to have a treat as well.  Same goes with the audio.  I like to listen in stereo even though the majority of people listened in mono.  You can't argue that mono is better than stereo.

Suffering with a 3 button Genesis pad just for the sake of playing with the original pad is... well...  you're special.

As far as visuals are concerned, I like RGB. But RF/composite is still a treat for me.

And I listen to stuff in stereo... if it is available in stereo. Weren't TG-16 and Genny the first to offer stereo in North America? Don't exaggerate things, I said I drew the line at modding consoles. 

And finally, the point is that I do appreciate the 3-button controller for the Genny, since I gave it a chance (I'm glad I did), but it will never be on my list of "top 5 controllers"! Plus, I'm entitled to gripe about it! You gripe about how crappy RF/composite is all the time!

(Joe, you know it's fun to enliven the boards with some drama! Especially because I'm supposed to be installing some molding -- big party tomorrow -- but I wanted to procrastinate . I have to do some painting as well, goddammit.)

[CrackTiger]

So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? 

Personally, I can't stand playing Intellivision with an awful dirty dark screen that warps and has lines running through it, because it affects the actual gameplay(even more so than those illegible passwords in composite).

Which is why I use the best all-in-one Radio Shack RF switches I can find with a modern composite/rca cable. Hopefully I can get a composite mod someday... I also don't use the Intellivision 2, because the pads don't play properly, even though they're official.

I also use Genesis 6 button pads to play SMS games when I can't find a fully functional SMS pad with the knob attachment. I don't think that playing games designed for a Sega Mark III pad with a SMS pad preserves anything that I'm losing by playing with a Genesis pad.

The original PC Engine was designed to be a cheap tiny next gen machine to compete with the Famicom. It was initially designed with flaws that betrayed it's potential, since it was never supposed to run games as beautiful as it wound up supporting years after it's originally estimated life span had passed.

Hardware developers make mistakes all the time, just like software developers. I don't think that installing a fan in a Duo to keep it from dying after a few years detracts from the games' authenticity. I'd rather play a working system than a dead system. Just as I'd rather play a TE/GT with loud sound than quiet sound.

The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.

The hardware a company officially puts out doesn't determine a console's zone of realness for me, particularly since most full-life consoles have contradicting standards between their own hardware releases. Like the GBA, the original is nearly unplayable, even with a worm light. But the games have never looked better than on the new brighter GBA SP and DS Lite.

All I know is that for years, I wanted to play TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine games that looked as vibant as the screenshots on game cases and in magazines, and it wasn't until I got an S-Video mod that I found that those games really did look like that all along.

I think that composite genuinely represents the graphics of most consoles well enough, but the Turbo/PCE is one of them that got a raw deal(proportionately between actual graphics and what comes out of the box).

Personally, I am deluded by nostalgia. And am loving every minute of it. 

I don't know why some people take that as an insult.

[Keranu]

So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? 

I know I would .

[PCEngineHell]

The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

The problem only affects certain Genesis 2 deck types. They used 3 different video chip types in the Mk-1631 decks and in the Mk-1451 deck the same chip used in the Genesis 3 and NeoGeo cd is used. The Mk-1451 composite out is better then the Mk-1631 but I don't use it. I use s-video from it as I modded it for s-video. I wont play a Genesis game in composite again ever if I can help it.

[ccovell]

So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? 

I know I would .

Same here.  Famiclones and NES-on-a-chip systems (like the NEX) are inferior to the real thing.  Their sound emulation is off, connectors incompatible with some games, and the composite output does not average out NTSC artifacts as the real NES/FC hardware does.

[Joe Redifer]

The way you're arguing that tells me that I have to go for A/V

No no no!  I'm saying that many of the reasons as to why he thinks RF looks better seem to be nostalgic reasons.  If RF is all you have or care about then RF is fine.  I played Genesis in composite from 1989 until 2006.  There were always things I hated about the video quality, such as the smearing and the rainbow bars, etc.  I had similar but different feelings for all of my other systems I played in composite as well.  For me, going to RGB was like finally being able to scratch that itch that has been bugging me forever.  I never thought I'd be able to get better than composite out of my Genesis and I figured getting a real RGB monitor wasn't going to happen.  Transcoding to component was a godsend for me.

Weren't TG-16 and Genny the first to offer stereo in North America? Don't exaggerate things, I said I drew the line at modding consoles.

Yes, the Genesis and the Turbo were the first US consoles to offer true stereo sound.  I don't think you can mod a console for stereo even if you wanted.  Sure, you can put two audio jacks on an SMS or an NES, but it's still mono.  I take my single line out on my NES, attach a Y-connector and then two audio lines so I am not stuck with it coming out of left-only or right-only when I play.  Playing SMS games on a Genesis hooked up to a stereo doesn't make the SMS games stereo.  Stereo means two discrete directional sound channels, so there really isn't much to argue about here.

The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are differ

Very true, there are lengthy discussions about this over at Sega-16.com, and also the sound between various models as well.  Which one would be considered the "definitive" one?

All I know is that for years, I wanted to play TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine games that looked as vibant as the screenshots on game cases and in magazines, and it wasn't until I got an S-Video mod that I found that those games really did look like that all along.

That's very true.  A lot of the screen shots of PC Engine and TurboGrafx games are in RGB or at the very least, something MUCH better than composite.  Granted there are exceptions (and EGMs in-house picture quality went down the tubes starting around their 8th or 9th issue), but a lot of those screens were so crisp and clear... oh man.  Now I can see those same screens on my TV.

And I agree, nostalgia kicks ass.  I never meant to insinuate it is a bad thing.

[CrackTiger]

I'm surprised I never thought to try this sooner.

I used an S-Video to Composite adaptor to capture screenshots of my RGB/S-Video mod outputted in composite.

http://superpcenginegrafx.com/video666.html

That's a pretty big freaking difference(scroll down to see the rollover pic). Even though in theory, the S-Video mod-to-composite signal could be degraded from the 2 cables and adaptor.

Turbo games do look amazing in composite, even compared to S-Video & RGB. But the default Turbo/PCE's composite output still drains half the color out of the image.

So basically, you're saying you'd rather stare at a blinking screen with an NES attached instead of using a Generation NEX? 

I know I would .

Same here.  Famiclones and NES-on-a-chip systems (like the NEX) are inferior to the real thing.  Their sound emulation is off, connectors incompatible with some games, and the composite output does not average out NTSC artifacts as the real NES/FC hardware does.

I wasn't talking about a top loading NES or A/V Famicom. I was talking about the regular NES that makes up 99% of the North American market. The last 10 or so I bought only begin to play games once every 20 tries or 1 in every 20 or more carts work. Or like the best running one I have, it crashed halfway through Zelda and erased my save files.

An NES that only gives you a blinking screen is far inferior to the NEX.  They have no sound, connectors are incompatible with all games, and the composite does not output anything but a blinking/flashing screen. 

I think a better comparison would've been to ask if replacing the pins/modding an NES detracts from the whole experience. I'd rather play a modded NES that is reliable than an NES that is a strobe light/game save eraser combo.

[Tatsujin]

AV is such weak! since i moved out of my country, i'm forced to play on AV signal, since most of the TVs here dosen't support RGB but S-Video. but the way to grade up your AV signal to S-Video is hard and long. first i need a RGB mod and after that in serial a RGB to S-Video converter. both i don't have at the moment and would cost me lot of money if i want to get it

of course i can take some time, which i certainly don't have, and make all the mods by my own talented hands. but i'm just too lazy for that kind of shit nowadays

next time i go back to my country i will pick up my US DUO which is already RGB moded. then i only need a converter to S-Video, and all the games will rule again

[elnino]

I've never had a NEC system with a signal better than AV

[TR0N]

I've never had a NEC system with a signal better than AV

Me either i've stuck with composite up untile 06.

Last year i'd switch and picked up a crt tv that suports component and s-video.

I'm at the point now where i'm sick of composite wash out look.

Dunno i guess afther many years i wanted a "better picture" and being, able to see all the detail in the game a little more.

When your brought up on video games from the (arcades) it comes down to wanting the experince at home.

I see some here are happy with composite hey if that's there thing np then.

While ago i hook up my, NeoGeo CMVS through component and i'd like the look of it. Bright colors and being able to the "see the details better... in the animation was a treat to me.

Still it does come down to personal prefernce on what picture you like.

Right now my duo-r is still has composite but.. i will have it modded one day to have either s-video or rbg added.

[GUTS]

Well shit, you RGB guys have convinced me to give it a go after all.  My Saturn actually looks really good through S-video on my HDTV, is that a good indication that my Turbo and Genesis will look good too?  Or should I just pony up the $200 for a SDTV?

[Keranu]

I'm no expert by any means, but I'd say get an s-video mod for your Genesis but leave the Turbo as is.

[esteban]

First I'd like to thank Joe for being a good sport (plus, I enjoyed your recent post ) and, second, now it's time for me to give CrackTiger some grief!

Personally, I can't stand playing Intellivision with an awful dirty dark screen that warps and has lines running through it, because it affects the actual gameplay(even more so than those illegible passwords in composite).

Well, thankfully, I never have it that bad (where it affects gameplay). You might try experimenting to see if that is caused by interference from other cables / devices. I've found that all my RF connections are susceptible to interference. Often, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it: so I just have to move stuff around (i.e. video cables, power cords, AC adapters).

Hopefully I can get a composite mod someday... I also don't use the Intellivision 2, because the pads don't play properly, even though they're official.

I've never owned Intellivision 2, but it sounds like the pads rival the Atari 7800!

I also use Genesis 6 button pads to play SMS games when I can't find a fully functional SMS pad with the knob attachment. I don't think that playing games designed for a Sega Mark III pad with a SMS pad preserves anything that I'm losing by playing with a Genesis pad.

Ouch! The 6-button Genny pad is worse than the 3-button, IMHO . This is a subjective area, of course, but I've always preferred NES-style controllers... so I like the SMS pads better than the Genny's pads.

The original PC Engine was designed to be a cheap tiny next gen machine to compete with the Famicom. It was initially designed with flaws that betrayed it's potential, since it was never supposed to run games as beautiful as it wound up supporting years after it's originally estimated life span had passed.

I have no reason to disagree. But I'm not concerned with anything outside of the actual hardware we were sold, since modded hardware won't provide what I want.

Hardware developers make mistakes all the time, just like software developers. I don't think that installing a fan in a Duo to keep it from dying after a few years detracts from the games' authenticity. I'd rather play a working system than a dead system. Just as I'd rather play a TE/GT with loud sound than quiet sound.

1. Well, I wouldn't fault anyone for performing any mod (including RGB), since we all have very different needs. I'm sure a fan is a practical idea... but I have no desire to install a fan. Thankfully, my DUOs still work fine.

2. As far as TE/GT is concerned: I never said I am opposed to repairing hardware! As long as hardware is repaired to regain the original specifications, I'm happy.

The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.

Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...

My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.

The hardware a company officially puts out doesn't determine a console's zone of realness for me, particularly since most full-life consoles have contradicting standards between their own hardware releases. Like the GBA, the original is nearly unplayable, even with a worm light. But the games have never looked better than on the new brighter GBA SP and DS Lite.

Ahhh, but those aren't contradictions! Those are all valid configurations of a product. We're not talking about folks who modded their GP32's / GBA's with illuminated screens now, we're talking about mass produced consumer goods.

Another significant change of aesthetics ocurred earlier when GB -> GBC ...  the introduction of color (however limited) and a slight tweaking of the hardware (there were some GBC-only games that were not backward-compatible) is certainly relevant to our discussion.

All I know is that for years, I wanted to play TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine games that looked as vibant as the screenshots on game cases and in magazines, and it wasn't until I got an S-Video mod that I found that those games really did look like that all along.

I think that composite genuinely represents the graphics of most consoles well enough, but the Turbo/PCE is one of them that got a raw deal(proportionately between actual graphics and what comes out of the box).

Personally, I am deluded by nostalgia. And am loving every minute of it. 

I don't know why some people take that as an insult.

[Seldane]

I'm no expert by any means, but I'd say get an s-video mod for your Genesis but leave the Turbo as is.

Why mod a system that already outputs s-video? :p

Anyway - you should definitely do the rgb mod and then convert it to component just like Joe did. You'll definitely not regret it.

[GUTS]

Yeah I want S-video at the very least on my Genesis and Duo, the colors are just so much more vibrant.  I definitely want RGB on my Saturn and Dreamcast though.

[CrackTiger]

Yeah I want S-video at the very least on my Genesis and Duo, the colors are just so much more vibrant.  I definitely want RGB on my Saturn and Dreamcast though.

I'm planning on getting one of those RGB trancoder things that outputs S-Video, since I still want to play classic consoles on regular TVs and my capture card doesn't do component. If I can't get a 2-in-1, I'll also pick up one that does component later on to play stuff on my projector.

GUTS, you can get Dreamcast VGA adaptors pretty cheap and nearly all DC games support progressive scan.

As far as TE/GT is concerned: I never said I am opposed to repairing hardware! As long as hardware is repaired to regain the original specifications, I'm happy.

As far as I'm concerned, the Turbo's composite quality is a defect, like the TE/GT sound issue its not a system destroying one, but like the TE/GT sound problem, fixing it only improves the game experience.

But like I've said before, if someone wants to play Duo games on a black & white TV while standing on their head, thats their business. 
 

The Genesis II and CDX's display a grid pattern across the screen while the model 1 Genesis doesn't. If I were to compare further, I'm sure that most aspects of the picture quality are different.

I bought a SNES2 over the tard sized SNES, only to find that S-Video/RGB support had been removed. Sometimes hardware manufacturers take a step backwards.

Again, I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? I think all of these configurations are valid. In fact, we didn't even discuss the range of televisions and their picture quality...

My notion of "medium' is very inclusive and accounts for all of these configurations.

The point is that there is no standard original specification for game consoles.

I think that allowing Duo games to appear as colorful as they really are is just one more "medium".

As for the range of TV quality, every TV is different and each one radically changes the Duo's original specifications.