Gradius

Spector · 02/24/2007, 04:55 AM

There's a rumour going about that Gradius is a good game, though having played it for the first time last night, I can't confirm this to be true. There's something I need to ask about the power up system:

On the first level, you get to meet a boss whose entrance is preceded by spurting lava balls. If you have not got the orange ball protection on your ship (called "option"), you will die no matter what you do. If I fail to kill the end of level boss, I will be sent back to the bit just before when you meet him. You lose all your power ups, and there are not enough orange globules to get your power up meter back to "option" so that you can get the protection on your ship.

What this means in short is that, if I fail to kill the end of level boss on stage one at my first attempt, the game is effectively over, because it's impossible to go past the boss without the shield protection which you can no longer power up to.

Is this anyone's idea of good game design?

ccovell · 02/24/2007, 07:49 AM

Welcome to game design, circa 1986.

Digi.k · 02/24/2007, 08:33 AM

hehe *uses the thread as an excuse to post some pages from pc engine manual*

/gradius1.jpg

If you find gradius a bit tough, you could try the code! Just pause the screen and press; up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, II, I and unpause!
Although you can only do this a few times.

/gradius2.jpg

The planet Gradius, a peaceful Earth-like world is now under attack from an old nemesis, aliens from subspace star cluster of Bacterion! To save your world you must launch the prototype hyper space fighter, the Vic Viper and take out the super fortress Xaerous, To reach this you have to steal enemy power capsules along your route and boost the Vic Vipers weapon powers! (Story is from the European booklet of Gradius).

Spector · 02/24/2007, 09:11 AM

Quote from: ccovell on 02/24/2007, 07:49 AMWelcome to game design, circa 1986.

Not the games I've played - Uridium from the same year on the C64/Spectrum is far better in this regard. Xevious has power ups, as does 1942, but they are not essential to getting past any stage of the game. I can't believe how flawed the design is in Gradius. People criticise Kung Fu as simplistic, but at least your progress in the game is in your own hands. With Gradius, it isn't.

Kitsunexus · 02/24/2007, 12:18 PM

If I ruled the world, saying anything bad about 80's/90's era Konami would carry the death penalty.

JoshTurboTrollX · 02/24/2007, 01:47 PM

Gradius for PCE is better than Gradius in the Arcades! We(The Turbo Loyal) Got the best Gradius Ever IMO.

TS

Spector · 02/24/2007, 02:00 PM

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 02/24/2007, 12:18 PMIf I ruled the world, saying anything bad about 80's/90's era Konami would carry the death penalty.

I know- it's not something I was expecting to feel, but compared to an earlier game like Xevious, I just don't rate it so far. I mean, to get past the first guy, you take a certain position and just keep pressing fire the stop the lava balls getting you. There's no rhythm or movement in it at all. And if you die in certain places, the game is hopelessly hard, as you don't have the weapons to carry on to the next stage. I'll keep playing, but It's not looking great right now.

Quote from: turbo_sage on 02/24/2007, 01:47 PMGradius for PCE is better than Gradius in the Arcades! We(The Turbo Loyal) Got the best Gradius Ever IMO.

Ah, but what about the slowdown? It's pretty bad at times.

nat · 02/24/2007, 02:27 PM

Quote from: Spector on 02/24/2007, 02:00 PM
Quote from: Kitsunexus on 02/24/2007, 12:18 PMIf I ruled the world, saying anything bad about 80's/90's era Konami would carry the death penalty.
I know- it's not something I was expecting to feel, but compared to an earlier game like Xevious, I just don't rate it so far. I mean, to get past the first guy, you take a certain position and just keep pressing fire the stop the lava balls getting you. There's no rhythm or movement in it at all. And if you die in certain places, the game is hopelessly hard, as you don't have the weapons to carry on to the next stage. I'll keep playing, but It's not looking great right now.

I think there is more to the design here than you are giving credit for. Sometimes the path of least resistance is not the most obvious one.

The first boss is a chump. You actually don't sneed a SINGLE POWER UP to defeat him. That's right, not one. If you want to school him, go immediately to the upper right hand corner before the lava comes. Hide there until it stops. Be careful not to touch the rocks up there, though.

After the lava stops, drop down. It will take 4 or 5 carefully placed hits to own this weasel. You need to aim for his exact middle. There are three or four barrier-things that protect the inner core. These take one hit each but you need to be precise with your shots. One, two, three, they're gone. Now as soon as the core turns blue land a hit or two on it and he's dogmeat. Again, you can do this easily without a SINGLE power up.

Quote
Quote from: turbo_sage on 02/24/2007, 01:47 PMGradius for PCE is better than Gradius in the Arcades! We(The Turbo Loyal) Got the best Gradius Ever IMO.
Ah, but what about the slowdown? It's pretty bad at times.

I find you'll only experience this if you're using the "Double" weapon and have 827,456,980 options around you. I tend to use the laser weapon most of the time which isn't as prone to cause slowdown and is actually a better weapon for most things. I also try to take it easy on the options since too many can clutter the screen and make it easy for me to lose track of my ship. There is one place in stage 4 the "Double" weapon is a must though.

GUTS · 02/24/2007, 02:42 PM

I agree, Gradius has always been total shit, the whole series. The powerup system is fucking retarded, even at full power your ship is pathetically weak, and they haven't added anything new to the formula in 20 fucking years. Salamander mopped the floor with Gradius, at least it had an interesting premise and a power up system that made some sense.

Seldane · 02/24/2007, 08:02 PM

Gradius sucks. I like the power-up system but that's it. The game is terrible.

Why is the damn game so hard? You know the classic Konami cheat code? Yeah, you can use it in Gradius for the NES. ONCE!! They even limited the number of times you can cheat! How crazy is that?!

Yep. That's one nasty game...

Kitsunexus · 02/24/2007, 11:23 PM

Well, if we were to be perfectly honest with ourselves, shooter perfection isn't on NEC systems.

Joe Redifer · 02/24/2007, 11:33 PM

It isn't on the SNES, either.

Kitsunexus · 02/24/2007, 11:51 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 02/24/2007, 11:33 PMIt isn't on the SNES, either.

You LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE!

BTW, if you're the same Joe Redifer from OCR, I LOVE your remixes!

Tatsujin · 02/25/2007, 12:40 AM

very easy answer to his question there. if someone got killed within the first level, done by its own inanity, then he deserves nothin' more than to be forced to move the fingers to the middle of the pad and press run+sel!

TR0N · 02/25/2007, 01:43 AM

This is the only version of, Gradius that any one should play on console.

There's been times i've been tempted by the pce version.

Even if it does have exclusive levels.. the idea of slow down makes me cringe.

_Paul · 02/25/2007, 06:27 AM

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 02/24/2007, 11:23 PMWell, if we were to be perfectly honest with ourselves, shooter perfection isn't on NEC systems.

That argument can be quite easily countered you know.

Seldane · 02/25/2007, 09:57 AM

The best shooters are on Atari 2600. Everybody knows this.

Tatsujin · 02/25/2007, 10:24 AM

even the fools know!

Kitsunexus · 02/25/2007, 12:15 PM

HUH UH AH HUH HUH HUH.

akamichi · 02/25/2007, 12:18 PM

River Raid and Megamania FTW!

grahf · 02/25/2007, 02:37 PM

It took me a few weeks, but Gradius was the first shooter I played through on the PCE. Its just one of those type where its memorize-or-die. I still enjoyed it a lot.

Keranu · 02/25/2007, 10:47 PM

Actually the Atari 2600 does have one of my favorite shooters, Space Jockey. Also has tons of other great classic shmups.

Quote from: Tatsujineven the fools know!

I wish gamers were still like that

.

Kitsunexus · 02/25/2007, 10:51 PM

Quote from: Keranu on 02/25/2007, 10:47 PMI wish gamers were still like that .

Most of them still are.

GUTS · 02/25/2007, 11:08 PM

A huge LOL at the guy who thinks SNES shooters are good, that was hilarious.

Kitsunexus · 02/25/2007, 11:16 PM

Quote from: GUTS on 02/25/2007, 11:08 PMA huge LOL at the guy who thinks SNES shooters are good, that was hilarious.

A huge LOL at you, for 1. not even playing them, and 2. not even stating your reasons why they're NOT good in your opinion.

GUTS · 02/25/2007, 11:34 PM

Haha, who hasn't played them? Obviously you if you think Axelay is a good game, hahahaha.

Kitsunexus · 02/25/2007, 11:36 PM

Because you couldn't beat it? Next you'll be telling me you couldn't beat Ikaruga. What a n00blet.

J/K I couldn't beat Ikaruga either.

GUTS · 02/25/2007, 11:37 PM

Go play Gate of Thunder, those snes clunkers won't seem so hot after that.

Tatsujin · 02/26/2007, 12:22 AM

Quote from: Keranu on 02/25/2007, 10:47 PMI wish gamers were still like that .

we're getting older and we gonna die once, all of us

Tatsujin · 02/26/2007, 12:36 AM

Quote from: GUTS on 02/25/2007, 11:08 PMA huge LOL at the guy who thinks SNES shooters are good, that was hilarious.

but axelay is an excellent shmup in its own way. there can't be made a proper comparison between PCE and SFC shmups anyway. they're too different in style and each has its own strength! i also prefere GoT. actually i prefer GoT over almost all shmups out there in the galaxy! but a fact is, that the good SFC shmups repetoire is small, very small!

termis · 02/26/2007, 12:44 AM

SNES shooters.... Ummm........ well, Axelay is the only good one that comes to mind. Ah wait, Area 88 was decent fun. I'm sure there's few other worthy ones, but Tatsujin says, shooters weren't the SNES's strength.

For that era, Genesis had my favorite shooters (TF series and Gaiares), though the TG16 certainly wasn't short on em either.

Tatsujin · 02/26/2007, 12:47 AM

and how about super aleste, macross valkyre scramble, parodius da!, pop'n twin bee? excellent as well. as i just said. there're some good ones, but they're rare!

Tatsujin · 02/26/2007, 12:50 AM

Quote from: thumpin_termis on 02/26/2007, 12:44 AMthough the TG16 certainly wasn't short on em either.

for the US market they where sparsely produced, but for the japanese market it's a completely different case O:)

elnino · 02/26/2007, 04:10 AM

Quote from: nat on 02/24/2007, 02:27 PMAgain, you can do this easily without a SINGLE power up.

Totally agree! You can actually do every passage of every level without a single power up. Some are extremely hard and you need some practice to beat them but none of them are impossible as I can tell from my own experience.

I like Gradius a lot and it's not as hard as it seems once you get into it and know where the critical passages are.

Seldane · 02/26/2007, 05:04 AM

Super Aleste = beats pretty much anything.

Tatsujin · 02/26/2007, 06:01 AM

coz it's a compile!

_Paul · 02/26/2007, 12:48 PM

I used to detest shmups until I got a PC Engine. It showed me the light.

Spector · 02/26/2007, 02:36 PM

Quote from: guest on 02/26/2007, 12:48 PMI used to detest shmups until I got a PC Engine. It showed me the light.

There must have been one game that changed your mind - which one was it? R-Type?

_Paul · 02/26/2007, 03:56 PM

Quote from: Spector on 02/26/2007, 02:36 PM
Quote from: guest on 02/26/2007, 12:48 PMI used to detest shmups until I got a PC Engine. It showed me the light.
There must have been one game that changed your mind - which one was it? R-Type?

I'm not sure. I think it was a combination of Super Star Soldier, Kyukyoku Tiger and others that really opened my eyes to shmups. R-Type was always cool, I had it on the Master System and liked it a lot.

Kitsunexus · 02/26/2007, 06:25 PM

Quote from: Seldane on 02/26/2007, 05:04 AMSuper Aleste = beats pretty much anything.

Super Aleste/Space Megaforce is GODLIKE. R-Type III is my favorite after that...

Of course, Gate Of Thunder pwns too...

Keranu · 02/26/2007, 08:30 PM

I like SNES shooters, I think they sometimes get a pretty bad rap from people. That said, I do prefer the PCE's shooters more.

Tatsujin · 02/26/2007, 10:00 PM

Quote from: Keranu on 02/26/2007, 08:30 PMI like SNES shooters, I think they sometimes get a pretty bad rap from people. That said, I do prefer the PCE's shooters more.

everybody with just a little bit of sanity should agree with that!

CrackTiger · 02/26/2007, 11:27 PM

Quote from: Keranu on 02/26/2007, 08:30 PMI like SNES shooters, I think they sometimes get a pretty bad rap from people. That said, I do prefer the PCE's shooters more.

Its like Snerds who only like SNES RPGs.

Just because there are things even better it doesn't that everything else sux.

esteban · 02/27/2007, 02:22 AM

Gradius remains an awesome game to this day. Period.

Complaining about checkpoints or limited firepower = whinging. Period.

A good game allows you to continue from the checkpoints... but nobody said it was going to be easy. This is what makes the game great: you have to develop alternate strategies depending on your situation (i.e. power-ups). And the time you spend simply trying to survive is useful: you will inevitably find yourself in a similar predicament later in the game. Don't choke!

Tatsujin · 02/27/2007, 08:22 AM

keep the frequency clear O:)

Seldane · 02/27/2007, 01:45 PM

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 02/26/2007, 06:25 PMSpace Megaforce

Now THAT's the worst title I have ever heard.

Wow... just, wow.

GUTS · 02/27/2007, 03:03 PM

Are you guys serious about Space Megaforce? Holy fucking shit! That is the slowest, most boring SHIT pile of a shooter I have ever played. Fucking Xevious is about 10 times more interesting and challenging. Megaforce isn't a shooter, it's a showcase for how NOT to use Mode 7 effects in a game. MUSHA was 4 million times the game Megaforce is.

Macross was sweet though. But the fact is the Duo absolutely burries the SNES for shooters, its not even a contest. The SNES had a strong RPG and platformer line-up, but its not even in the same ballpark as the Duo and Genesis for shooters.

Kitsunexus · 02/27/2007, 08:24 PM

Quote from: GUTS on 02/27/2007, 03:03 PMAre you guys serious about Space Megaforce? Holy fucking shit! That is the slowest, most boring SHIT pile of a shooter I have ever played. Fucking Xevious is about 10 times more interesting and challenging. Megaforce isn't a shooter, it's a showcase for how NOT to use Mode 7 effects in a game.

I actually thought that it moved at a decent clip according to the design of the game. And the soundtrack is phenomenal!

Tatsujin · 02/27/2007, 09:00 PM

what's going on? super aleste is an excellent shmup, out of any questions. the only disturbing thing is its boring and useless bonus-stages. also the main-stages turned out to be a little bit to long IMO. and concerned to the SFC specs. an absolut master piece in programming!

Spector · 03/09/2007, 05:48 PM

Just as a footnote, I played the Gameboy version which is a bit easier, and enjoyed it a lot. Going back to the PC Engine version, I am beginning to appreciate it now for what it is - a very good shoot-em-up. Still prefer R-Type though.