Now this is some complete BS right here

[oldskool]

[Arkhan Asylum]

jee, way to go, America! 
   

Morons.  I hope they all get locked up.   Especially the one that keeps goin "UH"

PERMISSION TO UH, ENGAGE, UH, FUCK, UHHHHHH


I didn't know Canon and Kodak made RPGs/AK's.

News to me!

lol the SureShot.   

[termis]

It's obvious that the gunners really believed these folks had weapons...  The mistake is tragic for sure, but I *can* see how such things can happen in battle.  The thing that was completely unnecessary was the haughty attitude of the gunners after the engagement.

[oldskool]

I think the tank running over an already dead guy was a bit uncalled for as well, that's just rediculous.  Also, the guys in the van with the kids trying to pick up a survivor - were they a threat?

[Joe Redifer]

The tank did not run over any dead guy.  I watched the 39 minute uncut video which did not have opinion texts inserted.

And I agree with thermis.  A guy did have an RPG... it sure looked like he did to me.  How was the engagement unjustified?  And who were the idiots who pulled up in a van with children inside of a place that was just shot up where the helicopter that did it was still circling?  Not the sharpest tools in the shed, for sure.

[Arkhan Asylum]

its kind of hard to tell if its really an RPG, and I mean cmon! the dudes hoisting the camera gear, its definitely obvious that its not an AK-47.  Unless its some kind of compact model.

I'd say until the dude with the "RPG" is hoisting it up on his shoulder ready to launch, you can't be too sure and shouldn't be unleashing hell and making an ass of your nation in the process.

They said they "had a guy firing".   Where?   What was being shot at?  To me it looked like the kind of crap you see on any street corner.  A bunch of friendly-ish people hanging around casually.   You don't really hang around casually if theres gunfire, kind of like what you see AFTER the US folk start unloading. 

and the laid back, cockish attitude of all the shooters sounds like the kind of nonsense you hear from trigger happy r-tards on xbox live.  Drop em down on foot! I'd like to hear them be all hot shit rambo maniacs at that point.

Q: "i dont know how the children were hurt".....

A: *CMON LET US SHOOT! FUCK, CMON! *

It seems like a bunch of trigger happy imaginative clowns all got together and made a mess of things.

[RoyVegas]

It's very interesting to see how people who have never served in the military nor ever been in a combat area say what they see in this video.  Ok, so you see a camera/camera gear while you sit at home in your nice air conditioned house and have the convenience of hitting the play/pause/rewind button.  It's also very nice to see it in slow motion with nice pretty arrows pointing to what they WANT you to see.  When you're in a life and death situation you don't have time to say "hmmmmm is that a camera he has in his hand or an RPG"  It's combat, live or die.

I've been in a UH-60 on the border of Iraq and I can tell you that the sound is defining and the vibration is rediculous. There are lots of factors when you get in a life and death situation that you'll never get to know while you sit on your couch at home and critique what military people have to deal with.

I think the tank running over an already dead guy was a bit uncalled for as well, that's just rediculous.  Also, the guys in the van with the kids trying to pick up a survivor - were they a threat? 

They entered a combat area right after gunfire.  That makes them either totally stupid or an enemy combatent.  I know I sure as hell didn't see the kids in the van while watching it.  Not until later when they made it slow motion and put two arrows over the moving things.  Even then I couldn't really say they were kids.

[Joe Redifer]

Agreed with Roy.  It is VERY easy to play armchair quarterback on this one.

I'd say until the dude with the "RPG" is hoisting it up on his shoulder ready to launch

At that point you'd likely be dead.  You would have no time to react.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Agreed with Roy.  It is VERY easy to play armchair quarterback on this one.

They aren't exactly tense, or under pressure in the footage.  They're dickin off back and forth, completely unsure of whats going on, and aren't even under definite attack.  Its almost like they're playing armchair quarterback too really.  They're supposed to be trained to think rationally.   It seems like all they care about is getting to shoot something.

and given the amount of jackasses I went to highschool with who enlisted in the army and got shipped off to iraq exclaiming that they wanted to shoot some bastards, ..... im not surprised really. 

At that point you'd likely be dead.  You would have no time to react.

ehh.... noone on the ground is focusing an ounce of attention on the helicopters.  the guys with the guns up n the helicopter definitely had the jump on anyone on foot, and can see whats going on.   Id venture to guess that if the guy with the "RPG" started to lift the thing up in a menacing manner, they would have plenty of time to pop off a few rounds and take care of business.   You dont really quick-draw Mcgraw an RPG and pop off an accurate shot



I think the guys in the air are definitely a disgrace, and look like a bunch of idiots.

[Joe Redifer]

noone on the ground is focusing an ounce of attention on the helicopters.

Except the guy crouching around the corner with an RPG.  If a guy is running around with an RPG, it's a sure bet that he plans to do something with it.  That's common sense.  You don't just wander around a war zone with an RPG as a fashion statement.  Once the guy lifts it to start pointing at you, you begin to aim and fire.  Sure, you may hit him, but by then he has already fired and you may get hit as well.  I know you are a teenager (judging from your picture) and still have a lot to learn about real life yet think you know everything (like most teenagers do), so I'll brush your comments off.

[rag-time4]

noone on the ground is focusing an ounce of attention on the helicopters.

Except the guy crouching around the corner with an RPG.  If a guy is running around with an RPG, it's a sure bet that he plans to do something with it. 

I Didn't see anyone running around with an RPG. I saw them deliberately gun down people were were running around clearly unarmed.

Arkhan is right in that the gunners were begging for permission to shoot, and were laughing when they killed unarmed people.

"All right. We just engaged all 8 individuals" .... how many RPGs were there? How many people who were not in full blown retreat were there?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Except the guy crouching around the corner with an RPG.  If a guy is running around with an RPG, it's a sure bet that he plans to do something with it.  That's common sense.  You don't just wander around a war zone with an RPG as a fashion statement.  Once the guy lifts it to start pointing at you, you begin to aim and fire.  Sure, you may hit him, but by then he has already fired and you may get hit as well. 

that guy crouching around the corner must not have been fixin to shoot, if that really was an RPG, cause he had plenty of chance to do it while the US hovered above, begging to shoot at things.   They didnt unload on the crowd of people for a good little bit later, and the first of the bit to get hit, wasnt even the "RPG" guy.

Also if this was a justified assault, why the cover up, and all of that? 

Its really embarrassing honestly.  They seem rushed , frantic, wanting to shoot at a mess of guys, and then they shoot a van trying to rescue the wounded.  That's classy.

and what about the other reporter who was in contact with the crowd that got shot at?   didn't sound like they were planning a US assault down on the ground there....  if they were attempting to blow up US aircrafts, I don't think the photographers would have been palin' around with them

I know you are a teenager (judging from your picture) and still have a lot to learn about real life yet think you know everything (like most teenagers do), so I'll brush your comments off.

22!

I don't think I know everything, and given the general response by many, it appears im not the only one saying what im saying.   I don't think they're all teens or anything either.   

[RoyVegas]

They aren't exactly tense, or under pressure in the footage. 

They're trained to remain calm under pressure.  Would you rather they scream like bitches and start crying?

They're dickin off back and forth, completely unsure of whats going on, and aren't even under definite attack.

Seems pretty clear with their opinion on whats going on and rational thinking.  They identify targets, they identify possible weapons and they get clearance to fire.  Aren't under definate attack?  Yeah Arkahn maybe they should let the guy with the possible RPG shoot them down.  Then they surely would be under definate attack but ah fuck it's to late, they're shot down and dead.

It seems like all they care about is getting to shoot something.

If you trained for the last 10 years of your life to do exactly what they did, wouldn't you be excited?  Oh wait, you haven't nor would you know.

and given the amount of jackasses I went to highschool with who enlisted in the army and got shipped off to iraq exclaiming that they wanted to shoot some bastards, ..... im not surprised really. 

So a few guys at your school you didn't like went off to war while you sat at home and jerked off then the entire army must be like that.  Enjoy the freedom they provide us all while you sit here and criticize them.  You should be proud man.

the guys with the guns up n the helicopter definitely had the jump on anyone on foot, and can see whats going on.

Umm yeah, that's the point of being in a heli, to get the jump on them before they kill you.

Id venture to guess that if the guy with the "RPG" started to lift the thing up in a menacing manner, they would have plenty of time to pop off a few rounds and take care of business.   You dont really quick-draw Mcgraw an RPG and pop off an accurate shot

Well if you watch it again, at the time the guy with what appears to be an RPG is peeking around a corner with no time for the heli to fire unless they were going to fire through the roof of the building to hit him.  Which in all fairness would still kill him but also kill anyone in the building.

[Arkhan Asylum]

They're trained to remain calm under pressure.  Would you rather they scream like bitches and start crying?

No it just doesn't seem like they're really under pressure at all.  Chillin back in their birdy, scopin out things they want to kill.

Seems pretty clear with their opinion on whats going on and rational thinking.  They identify targets, they identify possible weapons and they get clearance to fire.  Aren't under definate attack?  Yeah Arkahn maybe they should let the guy with the possible RPG shoot them down.  Then they surely would be under definate attack but ah fuck it's to late, they're shot down and dead.

Alot of things look like weapons in black and white when you're up in the air including those kodaks the photographers have. . Maybe they should have gotten a better look.  It is just like the "arrows telling us what we want to see".   One guy goes OMG RPG, and the other, itchin to shoot a bitch, goes YAH MAN, I SEE IT TOO, KILL EM!

Id figure it makes more sense to identify definite targets, not possible ones.   Everyone looks like a possible enemy.  Why don't they just fly the chopper around and blow everything up.   Possible problems all solved, right? 

Drop a big ol bomb on the place.  All potential problems gone!  No possibility for possible problems, since you just wasted everyone.  Woo!  GET SOME.   

Again, the guy peerin around the corner didn't take a shot, but could have, IF that was an RPG..  And when they circled around, and now, this is just me takin a guess here, but ... you'd figure if he was fixin to blow the helicopter down, he would have positioned himself to take a shot instead of standing around chit chatting with the rest of them..  I don't know about you, but it seems like the people on the ground are aware of the helicopters and don't feel threatened.  If they were threatened or hostile, I don't think they'd be standing around so calmly out in the open.       Unless you think they're trained to just chill out on corners when they're under pressure.

cause again, remember, these were photographers in the cluster?  With more photographer/reporters following a few blocks away?  For all we AND the helicopter people know, that guy could have been carrying a tripod.

was it being an RPG confirmed?  Did the ground troops confirm it?  Did they confirm it was a hostile band?  Why the attempted cover up?

If you trained for the last 10 years of your life to do exactly what they did, wouldn't you be excited?  Oh wait, you haven't nor would you know.

Excited to shoot people? Doubtful!   More like, nervous, not looking forward to it, not wanting to be there.  Also, I doubt anyones trained to blow up a rescue van, especially with kids inside.  If they can identify guns from far away, they should be able to spot kids in a van.

Blowing up vans picking up bodies is the kinda shit some 15 year old hopped up on mt. dew does in a FPS.

So a few guys at your school you didn't like went off to war while you sat at home and jerked off then the entire army must be like that.  Enjoy the freedom they provide us all while you sit here and criticize them.  You should be proud man.

really?  now you're going to make this all personal?  Thats cool I guess. I've seen enough war footage over the past 10 years of this Iraq bullshit to know that a whole mess of people really are out of touch with things.   This isn't the same kind of glorious war time footage that makes one feel proud to be American.  Most of the locals who are back in the states, were and still are disrespectful, racist dickbags that talk about how cool it is to shoot at people..  I'm sure its not a localized thing.  Plenty more of them all over the place.  Ohio isn't some unique place.

as for "freedom", sorry.  They're not out there protecting my freedom, as it isn't exactly threatened in the way they all like to make us think it is..  Last I checked, the people involved with that are all veterans now, old folks.  respectful even.   The kind that will tell you how messed up war is, and how rough it is to kill someone.  Not trigger happy numbnuts up in helicopters, begging to unload their gun on some dudes standing on a corner. 

I'm not proud to be an American.  not anymore.  Over the past decade or so, we've turned into one disaster of a country.   Racism, fatasses, lazy idiots, greedy morons, the list just keeps on growing.   Watching Cops is like watching a giant "LOL, America" meme on the internet.

Id like to know where we went wrong,

Umm yeah, that's the point of being in a heli, to get the jump on them before they kill you.

Who's they?  The people on the ground doing nothing threatening?  That guy with the RPG definitely could have shot the thing, again, IF it is one. 

also, isn't the main point of being in a helicopter to scout out areas, and have freedom of transportation?   Loud ass helicopters arent exactly stealthy or anything.  You can hear one from a mile away, and they stick out like a sore thumb up in a clear blue sky in the daytime.

Well if you watch it again, at the time the guy with what appears to be an RPG is peeking around a corner with no time for the heli to fire unless they were going to fire through the roof of the building to hit him.  Which in all fairness would still kill him but also kill anyone in the building.

well, if the guy peering around the corner was fixin to kill, why didn't he take a shot?  Why didnt he position himself for a shot when the helicopter swooped around the other way?  He had plenty of time to launch a doomrocket at the helicopter.

[RoyVegas]

Well, as much as this whole topic annoys me, I'll just let it be.  There are some things you'll just never understand until you're there.

I'm not proud to be an American.  not anymore. 

Then GTFO.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Well, as much as this whole topic annoys me, I'll just let it be.  There are some things you'll just never understand until you're there.

What sort of actual shoot-stuff action did you see?  From what I have been told, being over there and being over there in a firefight, are two different things. 

I would also figure that unless you were up in one of those birds, doing what they're doing, you dont fully understand either.    You dont get to wave your armed forces service around as a "I know more than everyone here" card,

as far as anyone but the ones involved goes, its all speculation.

Then GTFO.

ah typical narrowminded response..

are YOU happy with America today?  Are you just lovin the fucked economy, the blatant ignorance and racism, the lazy fatasses and the Wal Mart generation?

You are aware that our forefathers even said, if you're unhappy with the current state of things, revolt?  Change it?

or, should everyone who thinks things are in the shitter just pack up and get out?   

if everyone with a clue took your advice and GTFO'd instead of striving for changes,  you'd be sitting around stroking your dick on the internet with the cast of COPs, running rampant.

[oldskool]

Interesting debate here guys, but let's try not to make any personal shots at each other.

Here is an interesting perspective of things - many of you may have already watched it, for those that have not, take the time to watch through it.  It's quite a conversational and controversial piece.

Zeitgeist - The Movie
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197#

Second Zeitgeist is a very interesting perspective of money and the government, and a new better alternate society.

Zeitgeist: Addendum
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#

Check out this guy, he has an interesting way to explain his emotions.   

Made in U.S.A vs. Made in China

[Arkhan Asylum]

according to roy, that man needs to gtfo

I on the otherhand, think hes pretty correct.   Things need to change.

[RoyVegas]

I would also figure that unless you were up in one of those birds, doing what they're doing, you dont fully understand either.    You dont get to wave your armed forces service around as a "I know more than everyone here" card,

I have been in a UH-60 over Iraq, so don't tell me you would know better than me or I don't fully understand.  I'm not waving it, I'm stating I do for a fact know better than you.

ah typical narrowminded response..

are YOU happy with America today?  Are you just lovin the fucked economy, the blatant ignorance and racism, the lazy fatasses and the Wal Mart generation?

You are aware that our forefathers even said, if you're unhappy with the current state of things, revolt?  Change it?

or, should everyone who thinks things are in the shitter just pack up and get out?   

if everyone with a clue took your advice and GTFO'd instead of striving for changes,  you'd be sitting around stroking your dick on the internet with the cast of COPs, running rampant.

There's a big fucking difference in saying you aren't happy with the state of things in the country and saying you're not proud to be an American.  I'm saying if your not happy with the state of things, then sure, make changes just like you said.  I can't argue with that, that's what makes our country great.  But what you said was:

I'm not proud to be an American.  not anymore. 

Well why stay if it's so horrible?

[SignOfZeta]

Despite what the TV commercials and recruiters say, soldiers are not for delivering food, or healing the sick, or building bridges. They Army doesn't train you for a some high tech career or whatever. Soldiers, on all sides, are trained to kill, at any time, anyone they have been indoctrinated to kill, and do exactly what their superiors say. They are the most numerous and lowest payed of assassins. If Obama/Bush/Clinton/Reagan/Carter/whatever gave the order to invade Belgium or Brazil, or wherever, they'd be there killing on as wide a scale as possible as soon as possible. Its their job.

If you expect soldiers do anything else you are fucking stupid.

I will say though that my reaction time is better than any soldiers. Twenty years ago, when we blew the fuck out of Iraq the first time, when those lying predatory fuck recruiters were pestering me in high school, trying to tell me that if I didn't join the service I'd just end up a loser, I told them to go fuck themselves. Never signed the deal. Never shaved my head. Never learned to pick on the fat kid in Basic. Never used the term "camel jockey" in a non-ironic way. Never accidentally shot my bunk mate. Never blew up a school. Never went crazy because of it. Never killed myself or my family. Never helped spend $2 billion a day in tax money.

Some people are slower than that.

[SignOfZeta]

Well why stay if it's so horrible?

What is there to be proud of? My parents were American. They fucked. So what? I'm only proud of things I can take credit for...and things that are worth taking credit for.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I have been in a UH-60 over Iraq, so don't tell me you would know better than me or I don't fully understand.  I'm not waving it, I'm stating I do for a fact know better than you.

So you have been in a birdy.    Was it during a fire fight?  Was there shrapnel, bullets, screaming, blood, explosions, .... or were you just in one as it flew somewhere in a relatively safe/secure area.    There IS a difference between being over there and actually BEING over there.    I mean, you can fly in a black hawk and never leave base camp!  I really hope you aren't the guy on the horn in that video goin CMON LET US SHOOT, CMON CMON.

There's a big fucking difference in saying you aren't happy with the state of things in the country and saying you're not proud to be an American.  I'm saying if your not happy with the state of things, then sure, make changes just like you said.  I can't argue with that, that's what makes our country great. 

Well why stay if it's so horrible?

I'm not proud to be associated with this crap.  Its unfortunate really.  Our super power days are over.  The country is now a joke.   They like to make us think its the best place to live ever.  It isn't anymore.  Its not the worst, but it sure aint the best .   

Why stay?  Well, its mighty rough to pack up and GTFO at the age of 22 when you're in the middle of doing shit.  If things dont improve by the time im done, maybe I will pack on up and go somewhere else.   

Telling anyone to GTFO because theyre not proud of this crap is pretty arrogant.   are you proud? You thrilled about all this ??

I will say though that my reaction time is better than any soldiers. Twenty years ago, when we blew the fuck out of Iraq the first time, when those lying predatory fuck recruiters were pestering me in high school, trying to tell me that if I didn't join the service I'd just end up a loser, I told them to go fuck themselves. Never signed the deal. Never shaved my head. Never learned to pick on the fat kid in Basic. Never used the term "camel jockey" in a non-ironic way. Never accidentally shot my bunk mate. Never blew up a school. Never went crazy because of it. Never killed myself or my family. Never helped spend $2 billion a day in tax money.

Some people are slower than that.

Post of the year.

[Joe Redifer]

Arkhan, you are misdirecting your feelings and not being rational.  I think you are looking for "I am not proud of our military" instead of "I'm not proud to be an American".  The military does not represent all that is America. Shooting up civies is not something to be proud of, but that doesn't suddenly make me want to leave the country or hate everything it stands for.  But since you absolutely hate being an American, that gives you a convenient excuse to not put forth any effort whatsoever to try and change any wrongs you perceive with the country, and I am not talking solely about the military. 

As for me, I don't hate being an American.  I am certainly not embarrassed by it.  I am embarrassed by what Bush has done and what Obama is doing, but not by being an actual American.  What's next, should I be ashamed of being white?  Or Straight? Straight, white males were likely the ones who did this over in Iraq.  You are straight and white, right?  And male?  You should be ashamed.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Arkhan, you are misdirecting your feelings and not being rational.  I think you are looking for "I am not proud of our military" instead of "I'm not proud to be an American".  The military does not represent all that is America. Shooting up civies is not something to be proud of, but that doesn't suddenly make me want to leave the country or hate everything it stands for.  But since you absolutely hate being an American, that gives you a convenient excuse to not put forth any effort whatsoever to try and change any wrongs you perceive with the country, and I am not talking solely about the military. 

no I didn't dig America prior to this.  It's been a pretty jacked place for awhile, and there are so many things screwed up that no, I don't feel too proud anymore.  being in school right now gives me a pretty clear view of the unfortunate path things are heading.    Soon these idiots will be adults, and voting, and being part of the big picture, and making it a mess.

as for putting forth no effort via excuses: Wrong.    You shouldn't assume these things.   

I just hope more people hop on the bandwagon before its too late

[guyjin]

a post over at boingboing that expresses how I feel better than I actually can:

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/04/05/wikileaks-more-backg.html#comments
#14:

As a Marine myself, and an enlisted veteran, I'd like to point out a few things to all the knee-jerk anti-military types floating about.

First of all, you are correct in saying that war requires a certain type of desensitization. It is, in many respects, a terrible thing. Killing has an awful effect on the human psyche, as does any program designed to reduce or delay this effect.

But war-- killing other real people with real guns-- is a necessary evil if good people or (is such a thing possible?) good nation-states are to survive. There will always be someone, barring a truly effective world government, that can and will decide to take what is not rightfully theirs through military means.

Either they can be stopped, or you and what you love can die. And often to be stopped, they must be killed. Someone has to do it. It's an awful job. But there is honor in doing it. Killing is evil, but that does not mean that all people that do it are evil. (There's a philosophical point to be made here about evil acts, evil people, and necessary evils-- but I've not the time.)

I don't defend the people portrayed in this video. I don't know anything about the situation, and neither do you. I don't know enough to prosecute or defend them in the moral sense; nor do I have an idea how much bravado is sadism and how much is something much sadder and maybe necessary to do what they do.

Tangentially, military people don't choose their own wars, nor often their own targets. (In the sense of those who actually pull the trigger.) Your democratic government does. Both political parties do. Your Congress does.

And that is a fundamental fact and blessing of democracy. Military dictatorships-- without the serious divide between military and political authority-- tend to be...well, you know what they tend to be.

But to protect against it, you remove from your military men and women the freedom of choice. They enlist under a contract, which is negated only if they object to all wars, to defend their nation as their President and Congress see fit. So if you're going to hate and lament, do it for the political types who don't have to bleed or watch those they love do so. They're the ones who get you in these messes, these wars of agression.

The rest of us are just down on the ground trying to do the right thing. Be patriots. Be good to all those we can be-- that includes foreign nationals like Iraqis. But we have a hard job and it's not always clear what's right and what's wrong.

[bust3dstr8]

I don't know about you, but it seems like the people on the ground are aware of the helicopters and don't feel threatened.  If they were threatened or hostile, I don't think they'd be standing around so calmly out in the open.       Unless you think they're trained to just chill out on corners when they're under pressure.

They are just untrained and don't realize the range of the gun is a mile or two.

[esteban]

Our military/police are trained to relentlessly suppress/incapacitate/destroy. War is hell.

The video, in this context, is hardly surprising.

I am surprised, however, when folks are so quick to shrug their shoulders, rationalize and justify military actions (be they on the micro scale, like this incident with the AP reporters, or be they macro, like the overall US military policy in Afghanistan/Iraq).


Over the last decade+, I have been so utterly drained, emotionally and physically, from working to change things (on the local level, from union-building to educating folks on US foreign/domestic policy), that I dread even posting here. It's always ugly. Nonetheless, my two cents (in technicolor!):

For the folks who can "understand" why trained, professional soldiers fired upon the van in the video: Wow. Regardless of how you feel about the initial "engagement", firing upon the van was sterile, high-tech brutality. Period. Rationalize all you want, it simply strengthens my point about brutality. Perhaps we see things differently, though?  Unarmed civilians trying to save a wounded, dying man by carrying him to a van = threat. Yes! I see it now. By all means, I grant you permission to open fire.

The helicopter gunship (and/or troops on the ground) are in immediate danger of having a dying man being tossed at them.

One day, I hope we live in a world where even jaded individuals will recognize brutality when they see it. There is no need to "GTFO", since, as you are keenly aware, the very existence of America is founded upon  political freedoms to fight inequality and injustice, in an effort to make this country (and maybe even the world!) a better place. "GTFO" is, if anything, one of the most UNpatriotic and antiAmerican sentiments a person could harbor, especially in times like these.

The sad thing is that the only reason this particular story has some traction is because it involved AP reporters, who are  usually regarded, at times, as bonafide "humans". Had this simply involved Iraqi reporters, or even worse, locals in the community, we would simply know them as "insurgents".

And, to guyjin's post from the veteran: We, as vigilant, patriotic Americans, must scrutinize the actions of both the policy-makers AND those who enforce that policy. To do anything less is criminal.

[guyjin]

And, to guyjin's post from the veteran: We, as vigilant, patriotic Americans, must scrutinize the actions of both the policy-makers AND those who enforce that policy. To do anything less is criminal.

We should. But remember that the people making the decisions and the people acting on them are human beings. Human beings make mistakes, especially in high-pressure situations where they think (their) lives are in danger. If I'm lucky, I will never be in such a situation, and then have to explain myself.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

It's obvious that the gunners really believed these folks had weapons...  The mistake is tragic for sure, but I *can* see how such things can happen in battle.  The thing that was completely unnecessary was the haughty attitude of the gunners after the engagement.

This, pretty much.  Shit happens and these guys made deplorable mistakes on threat assessment, but it's just asinine to throw the entire military under the bus and say that this is their modus operandi.


Arkhan: you're so full of fail, it's hard to know where to begin. 

What sort of actual shoot-stuff action did you see?  From what I have been told, being over there and being over there in a firefight, are two different things. 

And being told what it's like and watching a video of what happened is lightyears away from both of those things.  Whether or not Roy saw action is irrelevant, for if you don't believe that serving in the military gives one a better insight into such a situation, then 'blatantly ignorant' is a suitable label for yourself.

Why stay?  Well, its mighty rough to pack up and GTFO at the age of 22 when you're in the middle of doing shit.  If things dont improve by the time im done, maybe I will pack on up and go somewhere else.

Prediction: twenty years from now you'll still be crying over the state of union but won't yet have exhausted your supply of excuses for staying.

I will say though that my reaction time is better than any soldiers. Twenty years ago, when we blew the fuck out of Iraq the first time, when those lying predatory fuck recruiters were pestering me in high school, trying to tell me that if I didn't join the service I'd just end up a loser, I told them to go fuck themselves. Never signed the deal. Never shaved my head. Never learned to pick on the fat kid in Basic. Never used the term "camel jockey" in a non-ironic way. Never accidentally shot my bunk mate. Never blew up a school. Never went crazy because of it. Never killed myself or my family. Never helped spend $2 billion a day in tax money.

Some people are slower than that.

Post of the year.

Fuck yeah!  Let's label everyone that joins the military as predatory, racist fuck-ups, mock those who suffer from PTSD or similar mental troubles, and blame the grunts on the ground for the expense, for it surely isn't our duly elected representatives that set their budgets and approve funding. 

no I didn't dig America prior to this.  It's been a pretty jacked place for awhile, and there are so many things screwed up that no, I don't feel too proud anymore.  being in school right now gives me a pretty clear view of the unfortunate path things are heading.    Soon these idiots will be adults, and voting, and being part of the big picture, and making it a mess.

So everyone currently in school is an idiot, eh?  I guess that includes you, unless your ego is so gargantuan that you believe that you're the sole member of your generation with a level head and capable of critical thinking.  Either way - you fail.

as for putting forth no effort via excuses: Wrong.    You shouldn't assume these things.

So what are you doing, outside of bitching and moaning on the internet (or at the student union/beatnik coffee shop/etc.)?

They are just untrained and don't realize the range of the gun is a mile or two.

Not so fun fact: from when they started shooting (video starts shaking) and when you see the rounds hit, nearly two seconds have passed, which would make them nearly a mile out for a 7.62mm or .50 cal.

[RoyVegas]

So you have been in a birdy.    Was it during a fire fight?  Was there shrapnel, bullets, screaming, blood, explosions, .... or were you just in one as it flew somewhere in a relatively safe/secure area.

No, it was not during a fire fight however the heli was armed to the teeth and I guarantee if we saw people with what appeared to be weapons we would have killed them.  Relatively safe and secure area?  Yeah, because flying anywhere over IRAQ is safe.  Even when we flew in initially on the C-130 they had to make a rediculous decent to avoid any gunfire.

There IS a difference between being over there and actually BEING over there.

Thanks for pointing this out, as you would know from your vast knowedge spending time in your computer chair.

I really hope you aren't the guy on the horn in that video goin CMON LET US SHOOT, CMON CMON.

If I thought they had weapons and could possibly kill us?  You're damn right I would.




I guess what really bothers me is the sacrifices military members have to make in the course of doing their jobs.  We did things for a sense of higher purpose and because that's what we thought was right or were told we had to do.  During my time in I had to make many sacrifices which I can never take back.  Sacrifices that have changed my life and altered the lives of those around me (immediate family). 

You have to understand that my general attitude has to do with the fact that no matter how small my contributions may have been by my service, I feel I played my part.  When there are people that make it seem like military members aren't doing anything productive other than other there taking target practice on innocent people, it's just bullshit.

Do any of us know what these soldiers orders were?  Maybe there were reports of armed people in that area that had fired on troops.  Maybe their orders were to find the threat and neutralize it.  Maybe they saw or knew something about the situation that the video doesn't show.  These videos don't always paint the whole picture.  Did the Rodney King video show Rodney when he was attacking the officers?  No, the video turned on once the officers had beat him down to the ground.  Don't get me wrong here, Rodney took a hell of an ass beating which shouldn't have happened.  My point is that in the case of these videos there are alot of circumstances around them that we have no idea about which can totally change the picture of what truely happened.

[Joe Redifer]

Also keep in mind that the helicopter isn't shooting just to defend itself.  It is shooting to prevent whatever the peeps on the ground might do.  They might try to attack the US military, set up a bunch of IEDs, attack civilians, you never know.  That's why people probably shouldn't be wandering around with highly visible guns over there unless they are military.

[Arkhan Asylum]

And being told what it's like and watching a video of what happened is lightyears away from both of those things.  Whether or not Roy saw action is irrelevant, for if you don't believe that serving in the military gives one a better insight into such a situation, then 'blatantly ignorant' is a suitable label for yourself.

Well, whether you've been over there or not... combat experience is alot different than just serving.  I think anyone will attest to that.  I have relatives, friends, and even enemies that all agree. 

I'm not putting Roy down because he served but never fought in a battle and I am not saying hes an idiot or anything.  Someone has to do that shit, and thankfully not EVERYONE over there is a trigger happy idiot that thinks the whole things a big game of counter strike.  I just think that even the people over there doing it don't fully know whats up until they've been shot at, returned fire, seen someone explode, etc.   We could all go to Iraq, fly around base, do the drills, fire our guns at targets, run around in the desert, and hear about encounters from other people, and it isn't going to make us experts on the combat aspect.  Reminds me of a book I read.  Highly educated book taught 2nd Lt or whatever, got all his ranks in class, not in the field, went to nam, blew it due to being combat n00b, and got plugged.

Noone but the dudes in the birds are ACTUALLY, honestly fit to claim expertise.   The rest of us are all just speculating.  Unfortunately, as expertly as they may have been trained, they made asses of themselves.

Prediction: twenty years from now you'll still be crying over the state of union but won't yet have exhausted your supply of excuses for staying.

You act like I'm alone in thinking the country is currently fucked.   Try looking at the big picture instead of the "omg, must pwn teh fails on teh forums" thing you currently enjoy doing.  I think probably about half the country is, as you put it, "crying over the state of the union".   

Fuck yeah!  Let's label everyone that joins the military as predatory, racist fuck-ups, mock those who suffer from PTSD or similar mental troubles, and blame the grunts on the ground for the expense, for it surely isn't our duly elected representatives that set their budgets and approve funding. 

I think Zeta was commenting on all of the fresh meat the military preys on at highschools, etc..  Ever dealt with that?  Around here, you get a bunch of meat heads that promise you glory and that youll be a badass if you join the military, and any other choice you make, makes you a pussy.  The current high-school/college recruitment in my hood, is laaaaaaaame.  Definitely not like it used to be.

So everyone currently in school is an idiot, eh?  I guess that includes you, unless your ego is so gargantuan that you believe that you're the sole member of your generation with a level head and capable of critical thinking.  Either way - you fail.

lol wow.  See, unfortunately for you, you are older.  You're not graced with the privilege of hanging out and being immersed in todays youth and being fully aware of whats going on..  As far as who fails here, check your reading skills, and quit assuming things for the benefit of the pwn..  I never said EVERYONE.  Unfortunately, the level headed lot is swimming in a sea of arrogant, lazy, self centered morons with no regard for anything other than themselves.  Drop out/failure rates have shot up considerably, and so has late teen crime conviction.  Couple that with the increase in teen pregnancy and the current unemployment rates, and you get an episode of COPS.

And sooner or later, these idiots are going to be fully integrated with society, with the rights to vote, etc..   The more idiots that get pushed out into the world, the worse it gets.  You know how many white trash, drug taking, crime committing idiots in just my local area are out in the world doing stuff?   Its only going to get worse unless something changes.

So what are you doing, outside of bitching and moaning on the internet (or at the student union/beatnik coffee shop/etc.)?

Probably a hell of a lot more than you who is sitting and badgering people on the internet.  I do habitat for humanity every summer, alot of food drives, I've gone to the crapass areas of Ohio to help clean up trash and fix things up.  Lots of other stuff.    If everyone would climb aboard the changewagon, things might get better, faster. 


And werent the rounds used, 30mm?  I don't really know the range difference, but someone probably does.   Whats its range!  and whats the range on an RPG anyway.

[rag-time4]

a post over at boingboing that expresses how I feel better than I actually can:

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/04/05/wikileaks-more-backg.html#comments
#14:

But to protect against it, you remove from your military men and women the freedom of choice. They enlist under a contract, which is negated only if they object to all wars, to defend their nation as their President and Congress see fit. So if you're going to hate and lament, do it for the political types who don't have to bleed or watch those they love do so. They're the ones who get you in these messes, these wars of agression.

The rest of us are just down on the ground trying to do the right thing. Be patriots. Be good to all those we can be-- that includes foreign nationals like Iraqis. But we have a hard job and it's not always clear what's right and what's wrong.

I don't know how the idea of 'removing from your military men and women the freedom of choice' applies to these pilots / gunners. It seems to me that they had a choice whether or not to engage these civilian targets. They chose to take an extremely aggressive tact and ask for permission to engage. They were not given orders to engage.

These guys were called in as air support. Why did they continue to mow down unarmed men who were clearly fleeing?

Something is apparent in the video: these pilots did not seem to take into consideration the possibility that these were civilian targets. Is this how our troops are trained to assess targets while they are in cities?

Perhaps you can answer Roy, since you're a veteran?

[Turbo D]

This is just war. I am not justifying what happened, but I am not surprised that it did. This kind of thing is to be expected. American civilians in Iraq have also been wrongfully slaughtered (e.g. journalists, tourists, etc.). If anything, everyone should be against the war, not this incident alone.

[oldskool]

This is just war. I am not justifying what happened, but I am not surprised that it did. This kind of thing is to be expected. American civilians in Iraq have also been wrongfully slaughtered (e.g. journalists, tourists, etc.). If anything, everyone should be against the war, not this incident alone.

I am against the incident, and the war.  But that's just my personal opinion.  Everyone has a right to an opinion.  And some people's opinion is that we should be there doing what we are doing. 

Then there is always the "what does the government know that we don't?" which could explain everything.  Or not.