I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.

[Tatsujin]

damn is the PCE awesome.

[OldRover]

I've thought the sfc is capable of 32768 colors output? so is it all all big LIE?

Mode-7 is capable of 15 bit color output via add/subtract transparencies but this isn't direct manipulation of pixels so it's difficult to draw a comparison. My figures are based on directly manipulable pixels.

Oh and I got it wrong... it's 61 colors, not 64 colors. So it's not even 5 bits color output.

These foolish wars are just that... foolish. And the fanboys come out in droves to defend their chosen consoles. It's all so stupid. Misinformation is always going to be thrown around by those who have their preferences.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

The other ridiculous stereotype that's been floating around since back in the day, is the notion of "real" and "fake" effects. Like how the PC Engine can only do "fake" parallax.

When people dismiss the PCE for not having hardware parallax, I like to ask 'em their opinion of the NeoGeo.

[Tatsujin]

does the neogeo not having hardware parallax scrolling?

[Nazi NecroPhile]

does the neogeo not having hardware parallax scrolling?

It's worse than the PCE, as it doesn't have any backgound layers - it's all sprites.

[Arkhan Asylum]

does the neogeo not having hardware parallax scrolling?

The neo geo is all sprites dude, lol.

Everythings sprites flailing around going FUCK YEAH NEOGOGOEOEGOEGOEOEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *echo*

[Tatsujin]

damn the Neo Geo is sooo damn weak ey. But it is supossed to be the best of all 'em. It's damn 24 bits. 1.5 more than the MD and SFC and damn tripple of the weak PCE. But it fails in displaiyng simple parallax scrollings?

[OldRover]

The Neo Geo hardware is probably the best BECAUSE it has no background tiles. A sprite-only system with a 1536 sprite-pixels-per-line limitation means you can have just about as many layers of parallax as you want. So... why don't the Genesis fanboys ever compare their console to the Neo Geo? Oh yeah, that's right... because they would get their asses kicked by a console which is similar in architecture (68k CPU, Z80 coprocessor for sound, same VRAM and sound buffer) but vastly superior (higher speed CPU, 7 ADPCM channels, 16 bit color palette with 12 bits of color output, 384 sprites of sizes up to 512 pixels tall, etc etc etc).

[CrackTiger]

NEWS FLASH! Top scienticians have recently discovered that the PC Engine actually has built-in hardware support for multiple scrolling background layers, transparencies, real-time shaded and textured polygons, real-time morphing of 2D and 3D graphics... all without the aide of enhancements chips or additional hardware! Finally years of technical research has provided an explanation for how all of these things appeared in so many PC Engine games. The PC Engine is now clearly a 32-bit class machine which unquestionably CRUSHES both the Mega Drive and Super Famicom.

.
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This just in! It was discovered that none of the previously reported hardware supported effects are actually built-in to the PC Engine. PLEASE, lower your appreciation of all PC Engine games immediately!

[JoshTurboTrollX]

The 16-bit wars (NEO GEO included) was the greatest time in video game fucking history.


Period

[OldRover]

The 16-bit wars (NEO GEO included) was the greatest time in video game fucking history.


Period

...and it had the most misinformed fanboys.

[blueraven]

teh funnAY

[spenoza]

The reason behind the SFC CPU is Nintendo originally wanted to make it backward compatible with the Famicom, but they couldn't manage to get the backward compatibility to work in time for the SFC release and it was stuck with a slow CPU.
In fact that's why Nintendo was late to the 16 bit race because the Famicom/NES still pwnd Japan & US and still had the no.1 user base that Nintendo didn't want to let go of.

I've read that in many places, but I'm not sure it's the only reason. The CPU could have been clocked higher and likely still have worked. It's just a matter of having a slower operating mode for compatibility. The CPU itself is fine. It's the clock speed that's problematic. So while backwards compatibility is one claim, the popularity of the NES bought Nintendo extra time to either sort out the backwards compatibility issue or find a way to clock up the CPU a bit. The 16-bit market did not catch Nintendo by surprise. They had time and they had more than enough indications from the market. I'm wondering of the CPU design wasn't robust enough to support higher clock rates or if the yields were low initially or something.

[spenoza]

In reading about the Neo Geo I did find it odd that the maximum sprite size was 16 x 512. Or is it 512 x 16? Either way, it explains why the fighting game characters tend to be a bit skinnier (in general) than on other platforms. When you can put out that many sprites at once and lump so many on the same scanline you can do just about whatever you want.

My extended blort there wasn't to demonstrate how hardware features made the SFC and MD better consoles so much as it made it easier for programmers for those consoles to utilize those capabilities. The PCE can do any of that stuff through creative programming, but it takes a little extra performance hit (losing sprites to effects, getting flicker from over-crowded scanlines, and extra program code in limited RAM). You should also not read that as an endorsement of those consoles over the PCE. The PCE is my personal favorite of the three. But from a programming perspective it was more difficult in many ways for programmers to produce some of the effects that the public and press were eating up on other platforms.

[awack]

CrackTiger

Are Seiken Densetsu 3's Intellivision-quality pixelated O's really more impressive than animated art?

No love for transparent, scaling circles.

Much of the special effects on 16-bit consoles are substitutes for real art and animation.

Yeah, it was a way to save memory, but most of that stuff looks putrid, infact, there is only one system(pce) between these three who's effects animation, pixel for pixel are still being used to this day.

[SignOfZeta]

Small selection yes, but what it does have is a small selection of incredibly good shmups, which in my opinion in quality beats the much larger selection of Megadrive shmups.

Axelay
Area 88 (Capcom's finest 2D shmup)
R-Type III: Third Lightning (best R-Type ever, simply amazing)
Super Aleste (brilliant Compile game, much better than the mediocre Musha Aleste)
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie (one of the finest shmups ever, tons of sprites on screen with no slowdown, trounces over the average PCE & Saturn Macross games)
Flying Hero
Sonic Wings
Gokujou Parodius, jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius and Parodius Da
Cotton 100%
Pop 'n Twinbee

I'm with you on Macross. Not only does it have a pretty decent amount of shit flying around for a SFC game, it also heavily uses special SFC effects all over the place and doesn't look like crap for doing it. Its really really good. I can't figure out why there aren't more quality shooters like this on SFC. I mean, these guys did it...

Axelay really impressed me at the time, but it hasn't aged very well. Its pretty good, but not great.

Area 88 is...OK.

Everything else is pretty lame though.

[Starfighter]

I heard that Axelay and Area 88 were the best shooters for the system and that Super Aleste was nothing more than a funny little game not to take seriously because of it's low difficulty. I got them all eventually and the one game of all SNES shooters I actually had fun with - was Super Aleste.

[TurboXray]

Macross Scrambled Valkyrie (one of the finest shmups ever, tons of sprites on screen with no slowdown, trounces over the average PCE & Saturn Macross games)

I'd hardly call it one of the finest shmups ever. The level design for the most part, is rather plain or repetitive. The first and sixth level stand out as pretty nice, but the rest are mostly only average. It doesn't have tons of sprites on screen, well maybe for a SFC game and certainly nothing to point relative to the PCE's and Genesis' shmups. The last levels do get some more enemy action, but still nothing special. I don't see how someone could think this game trounces the PCE's Macross 2036. PCE one has more interesting levels designs and variety. The bosses are pretty generic in the SFC port, while the PCE port as fantastic looking bosses. Almost all the of the SFC bosses are generic and/or don't fit the theme of Macross. The PCE one is more cinematic too, not just in cinemas - but levels too (like the large ship you're accompanying that crashes/pierces the large enemy fleet ship - in the game level). The music is pretty good on the SFC port, but still can't touch the PCE's sound track. The actual shmup design of the SNES one is pretty thin. The PCE one a better power up system through out the game as well as earned points(money) to buy secondary weapons. Much more choice of weapons to add strategy to the levels. The PCE one is pretty like Area 88 SFC games meets Macross. The PCE one doesn't have the nice transparency effects of level 1 and 6 of the SFC port, but the level graphics are much more interesting or breathtaking overall. The PCE one just has sooo much more going for it than the SFC port. The PCE version easily owns the SFC version. And the PCE on runs on a system card 2.0 too. That's an extra diss to the super fammy port.

The Neo Geo hardware is probably the best BECAUSE it has no background tiles. A sprite-only system with a 1536 sprite-pixels-per-line limitation means you can have just about as many layers of parallax as you want. So... why don't the Genesis fanboys ever compare their console to the Neo Geo? Oh yeah, that's right... because they would get their asses kicked by a console which is similar in architecture (68k CPU, Z80 coprocessor for sound, same VRAM and sound buffer) but vastly superior (higher speed CPU, 7 ADPCM channels, 16 bit color palette with 12 bits of color output, 384 sprites of sizes up to 512 pixels tall, etc etc etc).

Someone already tried to do that. I read a thread where someone was comparing Neo Geo to the Genesis. Saying how the Genesis had better parallax hardware and that the Neo Geo couldn't do it. All because they didn't see it on the NG, of the level they saw on the Genesis (Sonic, Ristar). The NG has a scanline interrupt and can change position of any chain of sprites needed for line scrolls or parallax. Though for parallax for games like Ristar, on the NG you wouldn't even need interrupt stuffs. You just build it all out with sprites.

 Genesis:
 16bit CPU, 16bit data bus. VDP 8bit I/O on cpu side (grouped 8bit ports), and 8bit data bus to vram (vram is two 4bit chips). The VDP also works in 8bit segments internally. As a side effect, certain things screw up when in Genesis 'mode' because it tries to emulate a 16bit I/O port by using a latch or some other type logic (like the increment register, if it's an odd value and you write a WORD to the I/O port - the two bytes of the word end up in two different places). But that makes sense, since the it's BC with SMS and that was an 8bit VDP.
 SNES:
 16bit CPU, 8bit data bus. It has two sPPU's, cpu read/write port is 8bit (and the DMA on the sPPU pulls data in byte segments on the CPU address bus). The external vram (which is dram and needs refresh cycles), is two 8bit chips. Each sPPU has direct access to each 8bit data bus. They work in conjunction with each other to build the display. For the most part, this is transparent to the programmer because of how they are interleaved and show/treated as a continuous memory range. But mode 7 shows the real layout of this. Pixel data is byte (for 256 color). The tile map data is also byte (instead of word). The pixel data and the map data are interleaved. So you have to take this into account when writing or DMAing to vram. And it's interleaved because the bandwidth to display 256 color byte pixels is very high, so they take advantage of the dual 8bit bus layout. On sPPU reads the 8bit vram chip holding the tilemap, the other sPPU reads the other 8bit chip that holds nothing but the tile data.
 PCE:
 8bit cpu, 8bit data bus. The VDC is 16bit device through and through. All memory is accessed as WORD addressing (16bit). All reads and writes are 16bit to the I/O. All registers are 16bit. Sprite cells are 16 pixels wide because the VDC's data bus is 16bit. It can't read less than that at a time. The only reason tiles are 8pixels wide instead of 16 pixels wide, is because the second 8bits of the WORD fetch are treated as the second plane of the tile, rather than the continuation of the tile's horizontal pixels.

No one uses "blast processing" unless they're referring to the Genesis, so I don't understand your question.  Of course it's incorrect to call a non-SNES thing "mode 7".

Yes you do. You're faining innocence and ignorance, but I know you understand the point I was making. Magazines, forums, and people have been using the term mode 7 to describe anything that looks remotely similar, on other systems, for years and year. Even to this day. Everyone here know exactly what is meant of someone uses that term. BP never obtained this kind of word context and association outside of the Genesis. But that doesn't mean one negate the other's usage. But you already know this. I don't think you care to have real discussion, as you are to stir the pot. I've seen your posts before and that all you ever do here. And it was your post that brought this whole thread off topic. I bet that tickles you pink inside. Are you on the Sega-16 forums? Cause if you are, your attitude/behavior most be completely 180 over there as I don't recall recognizing you over there.


 And since people are talking about arcade systems with no background layers, even the original 16bit System16 only had 1 BG layer. And it only uses 3bit pixel tiles or 8 colors (though it has a ton of subpalettes). Sprites uses 14 colors (color #0 was transparent, color #15 was EOL).

I've thought the sfc is capable of 32768 colors output? so is it all all big LIE?

In normal modes, it's a total of 241 colors. And it has the same restrictions like the Genesis and PCE. 15 color tile/sprite pixels and subpalettes to choice from. Mode 7 has 256 pixel color tiles. They index a 256 color pixel palette. But mode 7 can only show up to 256 unique tiles (like an NES), so it's no good for detailed backgrounds. Mode 6 is Direct color mode. It has direct RRRGGGBB pixel mode for 256 colors per tile. But the tilemap holds some more bits to be added to RGB tile bits. This is the 2048 color mode. 2048 mode is rather limiting and missleading. Effectively, you use the tilemap to set the color temp of the 256 color pixel. If you try to do that for every tile, you'll get hard transitioning. So really, only 256 color mode. On BG grounds can display this much color. No sprites. And it limits the BG to 1 layer when doing this (because the bandwidth is just too great for the sPPU's to do anything else). You can add color math into the mix to get more color, but some of the more advance transparency options are not possible in the higher color modes and you don't have per pixel control.

[Joe Redifer]

Bottom line:

PCE kicks ass.
Genesis kicks ass.
SNES can kick ass.

I have played R-Type 3 and I didn't much care for it.  I like part 1 MUCH more.  Maybe R-Type 3 is one of those games that has to grow on you, but there is certainly nothing exciting to the gameplay that makes me want to continue playing.  In other words, it doesn't start off being anything special.  And I never was able to grasp why Area 88/UN Squadron was deemed "best shooter ever".  The music is absolutely atrocious-sounding.  I cannot abide those fake electric guitars.  They make my ears bleed.  I think this is the game that made me hate the SNES sound chip since it was so early and early impressions are hard to shake.

[Otaking]

Bart: Candygram for Mongo! Candygram for Mongo!
Mongo: Me Mongo.
Bart: Sign, please.
[Mongo grabs the paper and makes some rough scratches on it]
Bart: Thank you.
[He gives Mongo the box and walks out of the bar, putting his fingers in his ears]
Mongo: Mongo like candy. Mongo Hate Super Famicom
[he opens the box - BOOM!]



RIP Mongo teh SFC hater

[Emerald Rocker]

So... why don't the Genesis fanboys ever compare their console to the Neo Geo?

Because the NeoGeo was arcade hardware, and no one except the token rich kid (the same kid who bought Fortress Maximus five years earlier) actually owned the damn thing back when it was available at Babbage's.

Everyone knew the NeoGeo was king when it came to capability.

[Emerald Rocker]

Yes you do. You're faining innocence and ignorance, but I know you understand the point I was making. Magazines, forums, and people have been using the term mode 7 to describe anything that looks remotely similar, on other systems, for years and year. Even to this day. Everyone here know exactly what is meant of someone uses that term.

That's news to me.  I guess I normally hang around people with brains, as Tatsujin put it =D

[ccovell]

Errata:

The bits thing is always a fun time to debate.

SNES = 8/16 bit hybrid CPU, 16 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), 8 bits of color output (256 max).
MD = 16 bit CPU, 8 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), 5 bits of color output (64 max).
PCE = 8 bit CPU, 16 bit graphics hardware (16 bit bus), >15 bits of color output (481 max).

This is not a good way to compare systems, by getting what you think is their "final" colour output, then converting them back into bitplanes.  So, I hope you were joking.

As Bonknuts pointed out, the SNES has a 2048-colour tile mode.  It's not well-known, but that's not a defense in ignoring it in some "bits" comparison.   Not to mention the 8-bit transparency layer (not just 1-colour addition/subtraction but actual transparency) which multiplies colour counts.  The Genesis also has a shadow/highlight mode that increases the actual number of colours on-screen with no raster split tricks.  So it's not as simple as counting the popular perception of colours and saying it's scientific.

And Bonknuts, if you're going to be comparing CPUs and data buses against each other, then yes the SNES' CPU has a 16-bit CPU & 8-bit data bus, whereas the Genesis' has a 32-bit CPU and 16-bit data bus.

OldRover: the Neo-Geo does have background tiles: 1 plane of 8x8 BG tiles called a FIX plane.  It's used for score displays, panel readouts, etc.  Ingame graphics and level backgrounds are all sprites, but it's not correct to say that the NG has no background display.

[TurboXray]

Ccovell. I wasn't particularly trying to compare CPU to each system. I was updating Old Rover's list. The bus and 'bits' for the Genesis and SNES video chips were incorrect in his list. But that wasn't to degrade the Genesis and SNES, because even with those statistics, the systems output impressive visual results. And the point being bits doesn't really matter, the end product does.

 From a software engineer point of view, the original 68k is 32bit. But from a hardware engineers point of view, it's 16bit (a single 16bit ALU. Not dual or chained or anything like that). It's just a matter of hardware level macro instructions instead of software level macro instructions. If the official and only assembler had 16bit macro instructions for an 8bit CPU, you'd probably see the same argument on the SE side too. The original 68k was also microcoded. Saying the 68k is 32bit is about as misleading as in saying the 65816 is really 8bit. Also taking the software engineer's view that it's 32bit in that context, make it look rather pathetic IMO against other class of 16bit and even 8bit CPUs. I.e. it makes a poor 32bit CPU in comparison to the 6809 and 6502 and related CPUs (and yes, z80 not in that list). A 68020 is a 32bit CPU because it has a 32bit ALU, even though the instructions don't vary much at all (although instruction cycle speed did).

 And I believe the term for NG is 'window'. Many arcade systems had a window layer that was non scrollable. And it's almost always fixed to show on top of all the other layers. Hence the name window and not BG layer. The original system16 arcade system had one of these as well, but that doesn't make it a 2 BG layer display.

[Otaking]

Sloth: Mama!
Mama Fratelli: Come to mama Slothy, come on hmm?
Sloth: Mama, you've been bad you play PC Engine.
Mama Fratelli: Oh, Slothy. I may have been bad. I may have kept you chained up in that room but it was for your own good.
Sloth: Yeah!
Mama Fratelli: You remember that song I used to sing to you?
Sloth: Yeah!
Mama Fratelli: You were little back then?
[singing]
Mama Fratelli: Rock-a-bye baby on the tree top. When the wind blows the Super Famicom sucks. When the bough breaks the cradle will fall...
Sloth: Break! Fall! R-Type III
Mama Fratelli: No! I only dropped once.
Sloth: Ahh! I hate Super Famicom
Mama Fratelli: Well, maybe twice. No Sloth! Put me down!

[OldRover]

This is not a good way to compare systems, by getting what you think is their "final" colour output, then converting them back into bitplanes.  So, I hope you were joking.

Of course I was joking. It made about as much sense as the whole argument over how "powerful" the systems are... people can banter on and on and on and on (and they do) about how X system is so much greater than Y system because Z feature but it really doesn't make a snotbucket worth of difference at the end of the day. I made up some specs and mixed them in with some real ones, just like all the chowderheads do. That's why these lame "debates" are so fun... you get to make shit up as you go along, and some people will actually believe you.

[OldRover]

Magazines, forums, and people have been using the term mode 7 to describe anything that looks remotely similar, on other systems, for years and year. Even to this day.

Case in point: the original author of PAlib (Mollusk) named the rotation/scaling capabilities of the DS "Mode 7" which irritated the hell out of me... to the point where I modified that portion of the lib to remove the misleading reference.

[Emerald Rocker]

I made up some specs and mixed them in with some real ones

+10 points

[Arkhan Asylum]

The MSX has this jacked up like 16 jiggabillion color mode.  It wins!

SUCK ON THAT, BASTARDS.

[nectarsis]

That's why these lame "debates" are so fun... you get to make shit up as you go along, and some people will actually believe you.

Yet people wonder why/complain why there's so much incorrect info/assumptions out there  

[shubibiman]

I didn't think this was supposed to be a serious thread. Do we really care anyway as we all know that the PCE rocks.

[OldRover]

Yet people wonder why/complain why there's so much incorrect info/assumptions out there   

The difference is that I did it on purpose and it was *clearly* tongue-in-cheek... others either don't understand specifications or stretch the truth just to defend their zealotry.

[blueraven]

FLAMEWAR ready... go!

[Ceti Alpha]

Bottom line:

PCE kicks ass.
Genesis kicks ass.
SNES can kick ass.

I have played R-Type 3 and I didn't much care for it.  I like part 1 MUCH more.  Maybe R-Type 3 is one of those games that has to grow on you, but there is certainly nothing exciting to the gameplay that makes me want to continue playing.  In other words, it doesn't start off being anything special.  And I never was able to grasp why Area 88/UN Squadron was deemed "best shooter ever".  The music is absolutely atrocious-sounding.  I cannot abide those fake electric guitars.  They make my ears bleed.  I think this is the game that made me hate the SNES sound chip since it was so early and early impressions are hard to shake.

I bought R-Type III for the GBA, a few years back, and while it looks nice, it really is a sleeper. I've tried to give it a shot and maybe I'll go back to it, but the original hasn't been topped in that series.

[nat]

The GBA version was reprogrammed & re-drawn from the ground up, as the company that did the port didn't have access to IREM's original source code. It's inferior to the SNES version.... Give that version a chance before you write the game off completely.

[Ceti Alpha]

The GBA version was reprogrammed & re-drawn from the ground up, as the company that did the port didn't have access to IREM's original source code. It's inferior to the SNES version.... Give that version a chance before you write the game off completely.

Ah! Well nuts. I should really pick up a Super Famicom one of these days. If not just to try R-Type III the way it was supposed to be played. I didn't realize that about the GBA port.

[Arkhan Asylum]

others either don't understand specifications or stretch the truth just to defend their zealotry.

LOLMML.

[Tatsujin]

If you want to see the weak SFC very well used, play some R²

[esteban]

3 out of 4 dentists agree:

[henrycsc]

The heck with this place.  I'm going over to www.steamingpileo'sega.gov  ..... yes    .gov

[_Paul]

A machine is only as good as what you personally get out of it.

[SignOfZeta]

A machine is only as good as what you personally get out of it.

That's sort of my point. So the PCE can do real transparencies...in a tech demo...which isn't actually a game...and only on the SGX...WTF good is that? Sure Yoshi's Island had an onboard coprocessor and the PCE could have done that...but it didn't, so it doesn't do me any fucking good. Its pointless to mention never used potential. Again, I reference the kid with the shitty report card that could have done better "if he tried".

I can't imagine why/how anyone would complain about fake parallax (how can you even tell?) but real transparencies are something special. They really set the mood on games like Super Metroid, Kikikaikai, and many RPGs.

Something I should have said in defense of Megadrive (surprised no one brought it up yet): those scale-happy Galaxy Force II-esque games for Mega CD from Core, whatever they were called, those were pretty impressive and AFAIK way beyond SNES and obviously PCE.

[_Paul]

That's not actually what I meant. My point was that you can't judge a console on it's technical aspects because how good a console is is entirely dependant on how much worth and fun it has given to you, and not other people.

To me, the Master System is better than the SNES. I had more games for it, I had more fun with it. So arguing over what one can and can't do seems a little fruitless (and I did my fair share of it in the C64 vs Spectrum wars).

[Arkhan Asylum]

I pick the system that gives me the best tickle in the pants while playing.

That system, is the PC Engine.

There are people that think the Bally Astrocade destroys every console released since, and it's because they can sit and play it for hours on end without getting bored, but then you sit them in front of a 360 and they go "whats all this talking and cutscene crap, im bored. I want to shoot things".

And they go back to the old stuff.

[Vecanti]

I think it's great that we can all have our opinions and discuss this without angst.  People have opinions about which hardware is better, Snes can do this or that and show X number of sprites, PCE has this many colors, or Genesis has blast processing. 

Having said that you can't change facts though.  And the fact is, PCE engine games are better than Genesis and Snes games.

[Emerald Rocker]

Phantasy Star 4 crushes anything that came out for PCE.  Plus, it would have been impossible to port to the PCE.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Phantasy Star 4 crushes anything that came out for PCE. 

Maybe to you, but really, this is crazy talk.  There are games on the same level as PSIV for PCE.

Plus, it would have been impossible to port to the PCE.

Citation needed!

[peonpiate]

All three have their strengths and weaknesses, but the SNES is the more balanced console when you get down to it. Its only drawback is its slow CPU but developers found ways to get around that within a year or two of the system being on the market. So for the SNES, that drawback is not as big of a deal once developers got used to it.

Dont believe me ? Look at Super Smash TV for proof. There are tons of enemies in that game and it has zero slowdown. It trounces the Genesis port, which has typical [bad] Genesis sound and muddy washed out colors. The SNES's superior sound chip and color count come into play here and it shows.

Of course that doesnt mean the Genesis and the PCE are bad, they are not. They just lack in more areas than the SNES does and are missing certain features. In the PCE's case one of its drawback is its sound chip...Which is only a step up from what the NES could do. Color wise, it is equal with the SNES, which is a great thing since color is where it was at back then. Transparencies and parallax are also missing, but those can be faked. And overall to me, they are not as important as a colorful image is...So the PCE is really not lacking much compared to the SNES.

Which leads to the Genesis. Bad sound + Low color count really hurts the Genesis. Most Arcade ports are muddy on the Genesis, but colorful on the SNES. The color problem with the Genesis became very apparent to gamers back when those systems were both out and the arcade ports starting to come out...Mortal Kombat 2 especially showed the difference between the SNES and the Genesis. A Muddy looking, grainy and bad sounding port on Genny vs a near perfect port on the SNES. The PCE never recieved a MK2 port but it would have been interesting to see if it did.

[CrackTiger]

A machine is only as good as what you personally get out of it.

That's sort of my point. So the PCE can do real transparencies...in a tech demo...which isn't actually a game...and only on the SGX...WTF good is that?

There are tech demos that look every bit as good for the actual PCE, but that's besides the point. So many published PCE games already have all kinds of worthwhile and impressive transparency and similar effects. It's just that they don't count to you. Many of these effects look better and are more appropriate/effective than what could be done using the SNES's hardware transparency and many are impossible to pull off using SNES transparency. Because not only is SNES transparency not the be-all and end-all generation-defining effect, it's actually very limited in what it can be effectively used for.

Same with Mode 7. Both became as much of a stigma for the SNES as killer apps. Most SNES game developments seemed to start with a quota of SNES hardware effects that the game was to be built around. Very few seemed to be designed from the ground up as a proper games, which only used hardware effects when they would compliment what was already going to be there. It wasn't long into the SNES's lifespan that while playing a SNES game, upon reaching the first hardware effect the reaction became, "Okay, here we go with the obligatory SNES effects" . This kind of sentiment was even expressed in game mag coverage. The same people who have championed the SNES to this day as the sum of the 16-bit generation and refer to all 2D games ever since as having "SNES graphics".

All that SNES transparency does is tint. But it's used for so many other effects that are much more effectively rendered with "fake" techniques. In reality, when SNES games use hardware transparency to attempt an effect other than tinting, it's the SNES game's effect that is "fake". The only thing "real" about SNES transparency is how much it is SNES transparency. Hardware built-in effects are only a method, just like when hardware renders an effect without a dedicated built-in chip. It's the effect itself in the end that is real.

Sure Yoshi's Island had an onboard coprocessor and the PCE could have done that...but it didn't, so it doesn't do me any fucking good. Its pointless to mention never used potential. Again, I reference the kid with the shitty report card that could have done better "if he tried".

I guess then that you view the PC Engine as a 'shitty underachiever' when it comes to graphics? Nobody here is questioning that, what many of us are saying is that the PCE already has so many games that are visually impressive to the rest of us. Equal to or greater than in some aspects and/or overall than the most impressive SNES games. Of course, the Genesis technically crushes both consoles with its 32X games, which also run off of additional processing hardware.

I can't imagine why/how anyone would complain about fake parallax (how can you even tell?) but real transparencies are something special. They really set the mood on games like Super Metroid, Kikikaikai, and many RPGs.

I can't imagine why/how anyone would complain about "fake" transparency effects. Back in the day, my SNES loving friends called this real transpancies and scaling + rotation (mode 7):

Apparently as SNES players, "real" transpancies weren't so much more special than "fake" ones.

Something I should have said in defense of Megadrive (surprised no one brought it up yet): those scale-happy Galaxy Force II-esque games for Mega CD from Core, whatever they were called, those were pretty impressive and AFAIK way beyond SNES and obviously PCE.

There are many more impressive 3D Sega-CD games than just what Core developed. The Sega-CD has games with as nice looking or better 3D graphics than early 32-bit console games-

It doesn't matter whether you know for a fact or can tell if polygons or something specific is being used. All that matters is how it looks in the end and those Sega-CD games look better than many "real" 3D 32X, 3D0, Jaguar, PSX, Saturn, and N64 games. But in the end, how many people like playing these games over more popular genres and think that pixelly 3D games look so much better than visually impressive 2D games?

Dont believe me ? Look at Super Smash TV for proof. There are tons of enemies in that game and it has zero slowdown. It trounces the Genesis port, since the SNES's superior sound chip and color count come into play also.

Does that mean if the Genesis has two games with less slowdown plus better graphics and sound than SNES versions, that it's proof that the Genesis trounces the SNES?

In the PCE's case its only major drawback is its sound chip...Which is only a step up from what the NES could do. ...Which leads to the Genesis. Bad sound + Low color count really hurts the Geny here.

   

Phantasy Star 4 crushes anything that came out for PCE.  Plus, it would have been impossible to port to the PCE.

PSIV is pretty overrated, as much as I love it. Shining Force, Shining Force II and Shining Force CD however, are equal to or capable of crushing almost all other 16-bit console games. Of course this is because of the actual games themselves, which could easily be replicated with enchancements and compromises on PCE & SNES.

[Arkhan Asylum]

In the PCE's case one of its drawback is its sound chip...Which is only a step up from what the NES could do.

I'm sorry.  What?

32 byte waveforms, 5-bit amplitudes, 6 channels with stereo panning, samples on every channel, and you say its only a step above what the NES can do?

WHAT?

It's on par and even surpasses the Konami SCC due to stereo panning, an extra channel, and sampling capabilities.  SCC has 8-bit amplitudes.  That's its only better part.

Either way.

WHAT?

I mean really, the NES can't touch the PC Engine sound wise.