Perplexed by Turbo/PCE Parallax

Mathius · 04/13/2011, 02:27 AM

I was playing Ys III and Ninja Gaiden recently and started to wonder why in these two games the parallax is so choppy, and scrolls the wrong way to boot? I know the Turbo is capable of beautiful parallax, but these two games seem to be cursed. In the cinemas for Ninja Gaiden there is clearly gorgeous parallax with Ryo in the foreground and a temple in the back. Strange...

Are there any other games like these? Do any of you tech heads here have any answers to this weird issue?

shubibiman · 04/13/2011, 03:31 AM

I've always wondered that too.

grahf · 04/13/2011, 05:21 AM

I always attributed it to lack of programming skills.

Joe Redifer · 04/13/2011, 05:54 AM

Exactly... inferior programmers.

BEERS AND VIDEOS · 04/13/2011, 07:03 AM

I always thought the same thing, but you'd think for high profile titles like Ys III and Ninja Gaiden that those projects wouldn't have been thrown to unskilled programmers.

SamIAm · 04/13/2011, 08:52 AM

I'm not a programmer, but I'd guess that the choppiness was a trade-off for having overlapping parallax that doesn't use sprites for one of the layers. With the layers as big as they are in Ys III and Ninja Gaiden, they would probably run into problems with sprites.

As far as I can tell, every PCE game that has overlapping parallax layers and runs at 60fps is basically using sprites for the overlapping stuff.

Are there any examples to the contrary? Better question: which emulators let you turn off the sprite and BG layers?

ccovell · 04/13/2011, 11:16 AM

Ninja Ryukenden was farmed out to one of Hudson's development units in Hong Kong and/or Taiwan, accounting for what I think is a lack of programming and presentation skills. They obviously cleaned up their act later for Cotton.

Who knows what accounts for the lousy scrolling in Ys III? Perhaps Hudson's programmers made their port from the PC a little too accurate (no scrolling hardware) or didn't feel like enhancing the scrolling routines at all.

OldRover · 04/13/2011, 11:33 AM

I would chalk up the Ys III disaster to being "too much data" and perhaps also "inefficient routines". I don't have a disassembly to back this up... just going on experience and logic.

SamIAm · 04/13/2011, 12:05 PM

Quote from: ccovell on 04/13/2011, 11:16 AMNinja Ryukenden was farmed out to one of Hudson's development units in Hong Kong and/or Taiwan, accounting for what I think is a lack of programming and presentation skills. They obviously cleaned up their act later for Cotton.

Yeah, but Cotton just used sprites for the overlapping bits. You can see it when there are too many sprites on one line - the background vanishes along with everything else.

SignOfZeta · 04/13/2011, 12:07 PM

Quote from: ccovell on 04/13/2011, 11:16 AMWho knows what accounts for the lousy scrolling in Ys III? Perhaps Hudson's programmers made their port from the PC a little too accurate (no scrolling hardware) or didn't feel like enhancing the scrolling routines at all.

That's what I always assumed, that they never optimized for the superior hardware, that it was a straight port.

At least it happened with Ys III instead of one of Falcom's better games.

Mathius · 04/13/2011, 12:41 PM

I wonder then why the cinemas in Ninja Gaiden have nice parallax, but the main game doesn't? The game can clearly handle it.

Sadler · 04/13/2011, 01:02 PM

As I understand it, the scrolling in Ys III did not animate the background tiles, it just shifted them over one tile whenever 8 or 16 pixels went by. Parallax on the TG16 basically boils down to one of a few techniques: dynamic tiles, sprite layers, h scrolls and possibly palette rotation. H scrolls don't allow for overlapping parallax layers, but the other techniques can (although it can be costly). Here's a good thread on parallax scrolling on the TG16. Wikipedia's entry on parallax scrolling gives a decent overview as well.

Sadler · 04/13/2011, 01:12 PM

Quote from: SamIAm on 04/13/2011, 08:52 AMI'm not a programmer, but I'd guess that the choppiness was a trade-off for having overlapping parallax that doesn't use sprites for one of the layers. With the layers as big as they are in Ys III and Ninja Gaiden, they would probably run into problems with sprites.

As far as I can tell, every PCE game that has overlapping parallax layers and runs at 60fps is basically using sprites for the overlapping stuff.

Are there any examples to the contrary? Better question: which emulators let you turn off the sprite and BG layers?

I don't think Magical Chase uses sprites for overlapping layers.

SamIAm · 04/13/2011, 01:20 PM

Great links, thanks!

shubibiman · 04/13/2011, 01:49 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 04/13/2011, 12:07 PMThat's what I always assumed, that they never optimized for the superior hardware, that it was a straight port.

At least it happened with Ys III instead of one of Falcom's better games.

The same problem is met in Ys 2 (in the belfry, the background scrolling is just as shitty as Ys III's).

_Paul · 04/13/2011, 04:00 PM

Quote from: SamIAm on 04/13/2011, 08:52 AMBetter question: which emulators let you turn off the sprite and BG layers?

Magic Engine.

The scrolling in Ys III is choppy because they are using only BG tiles and not sprites. Every 8 pixels (1 tile) the distant 'layer' shifts to mimic parallax. Most games use sprites for overlapped parallax, but some use animated tiles which look smoother, but allow for less variety (more of a pattern effect usually.

Keranu · 04/13/2011, 04:31 PM

Quote from: shubibiman on 04/13/2011, 01:49 PM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 04/13/2011, 12:07 PMThat's what I always assumed, that they never optimized for the superior hardware, that it was a straight port.

At least it happened with Ys III instead of one of Falcom's better games.
The same problem is met in Ys 2 (in the belfry, the background scrolling is just as shitty as Ys III's).

Strangely enough it's even present at the end of Ys IV, right before you fight the final boss. More strange considering Ys IV had areas with silky smooth parallax!

nat · 04/13/2011, 08:29 PM

Quote from: Keranu on 04/13/2011, 04:31 PM
Quote from: shubibiman on 04/13/2011, 01:49 PM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 04/13/2011, 12:07 PMThat's what I always assumed, that they never optimized for the superior hardware, that it was a straight port.

At least it happened with Ys III instead of one of Falcom's better games.
The same problem is met in Ys 2 (in the belfry, the background scrolling is just as shitty as Ys III's).
Strangely enough it's even present at the end of Ys IV, right before you fight the final boss. More strange considering Ys IV had areas with silky smooth parallax!

So does Ys III, in certain areas. The game jumps back and forth between 30 and 60 FPS throughout.

ParanoiaDragon · 04/13/2011, 11:46 PM

I do recall there being area's where sprites are used in Ys 3. Well, atleast for the 1st layer. In the Elderm Mountains(or whatever there called in the Turbo version), alot of the pointed rocky area's are actually squared off(which can be important for doing paralax), with small sprites finishing off the look of the rocks, so that they don't look square. This overlaps the 2nd BG of the clouds. And there are some fairly smooth area's. I mainly think of the Alcaino Ruins before you go in the lava area, there's some pretty smooth looking paralax used there.

Joe Redifer · 04/14/2011, 06:56 PM

There are definitely areas in Ys 3 where sprites are used as BG graphics as I remember seeing them flicker/tear as Adol jumped around like a monkey killing things.

Mathius · 04/15/2011, 04:38 PM

All this makes me wish that Falcom took the time to re-build Ys III from the ground up to take advantage of the systems capabilities, of which there are many obviously.

But, in usual Falcom style they optimize their games to be more atmospheric monsters than graphical beasts. Which, I guess is a good tradeoff now that I think about it.

ParanoiaDragon · 04/15/2011, 09:01 PM

Quote from: Mathius on 04/15/2011, 04:38 PMAll this makes me wish that Falcom took the time to re-build Ys III from the ground up to take advantage of the systems capabilities, of which there are many obviously. But, in usual Falcom style they optimize their games to be more atmospheric monsters than graphical beasts. Which, I guess is a good tradeoff now that I think about it.

Are you talking about Falcom's original work on Ys 3 for the PC-88? Hudson was responsible for the TG version, the only games Falcom did themselves for the TG were the 2 Legend of Xanadu games(of which NEC published the first one).

CrackTiger · 04/15/2011, 09:34 PM

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 04/15/2011, 09:01 PM
Quote from: Mathius on 04/15/2011, 04:38 PMAll this makes me wish that Falcom took the time to re-build Ys III from the ground up to take advantage of the systems capabilities, of which there are many obviously. But, in usual Falcom style they optimize their games to be more atmospheric monsters than graphical beasts. Which, I guess is a good tradeoff now that I think about it.
Are you talking about Falcom's original work on Ys 3 for the PC-88? Hudson was responsible for the TG version, the only games Falcom did themselves for the TG were the 2 Legend of Xanadu games(of which NEC published the first one).

At least the Ys and Popful Mail ports had the color/shading drastically improved. Ys III is the only game I'm disappointed with parallax-wise. I'd rather it had less layering and be 60fps throughout. Still looks and plays cool though. The Famicom version is my favorite to play (music kicks ass too) and it has no parallax (graphics still hold up well to the 16-bit ports though).

Mathius · 04/15/2011, 09:46 PM

Really??? I had no idea Hudson were responsible for the ports. Makes sense though since they are mentioned in the splash screen.

CrackTiger · 04/15/2011, 10:05 PM

Quote from: Mathius on 04/15/2011, 09:46 PMReally??? I had no idea Hudson were responsible for the ports. Makes sense though since they are mentioned in the splash screen.

Same deal with the Dragon Slayer games.

TurboXray · 04/16/2011, 12:38 AM

Ys III uses character scrolling (or tile scrolling). It was very common on the MSX and Japaneses PC computers. They use sprites to overlay some of the hard edges to give them a better look. Otherwise there would be a lot more data to mess around with, or less detail. The game does run in mid res mode, so that makes the scrolling theoretically a little smoother than if it was in low res mode. But screen isn't actually scrolling. No scroll registers. It's just rebuilding the tilemap every frame. And since the tiles are 8 pixels wide, the game would move pretty damn fast if it were 60fps. I thought it was a noble effort considering this was a CD 2.0 game with limited ram for any type of dynamic tiles or such. Could be worse. Could be just as bland looking (exactly as it is) but with no parallax. For what it is, and once you get used to it, it's not bad. Strangely enough, there are a few parts in Ys III were they switch over to a normal scrolling routine and it looks smooth. I think that was a bad idea on there part. It just reminds you of how choppy the other areas are once you transition into them.

Ninja Gaiden on the other hand is just wrong. I don't know wtf they were thinking on that one.

Mathius · 04/16/2011, 01:31 AM

Quote from: TurboXray on 04/16/2011, 12:38 AMNinja Gaiden on the other hand is just wrong. I don't know wtf they were thinking on that one.

Like stated before it seems that both games' scroll the opposite way we would normally see in parallax. Very unnerving, and so far not yet explained.

And for the record I love both these games! Ys III has music that almost surpasses its big brother, and Ninja Gaiden has its unique, tight, responsive gameplay, and its music isn't half bad either once you get past the first stage.

CrackTiger · 04/16/2011, 10:44 AM

Quote from: Mathius on 04/16/2011, 01:31 AM
Quote from: TurboXray on 04/16/2011, 12:38 AMNinja Gaiden on the other hand is just wrong. I don't know wtf they were thinking on that one.
Like stated before it seems that both games' scroll the opposite way we would normally see in parallax. Very unnerving, and so far not yet explained.

And for the record I love both these games! Ys III has music that almost surpasses its big brother, and Ninja Gaiden has its unique, tight, responsive gameplay, and its music isn't half bad either once you get past the first stage.

Did any area of Ys III other than the town scroll backwards? There's no technical explanation why either game was made the way they were. It's just weak programming with some mistakes. There's no limit to how bad a game can be made. A better question would be "how did some of those many games with 'impossible on PCE' parallax do it?"

Mathius · 04/16/2011, 10:49 AM

Haha that would be a much better question!

grahf · 04/16/2011, 12:03 PM

It's actually scrolling so fast and smooth that it only appears to scroll backwards, much like when you look at the wheels of a moving car

ParanoiaDragon · 04/16/2011, 09:28 PM

Did it actually scroll backwards? I thought it was supposed to be a "static" layer that stayed put, but ended up super jerky? The Volcano in the BG of the Alcaino Ruins is static, but totally smooth.

TurboXray · 04/17/2011, 02:52 PM

Quote from: Mathius on 04/16/2011, 01:31 AMLike stated before it seems that both games' scroll the opposite way we would normally see in parallax. Very unnerving, and so far not yet explained.

It's because the mixed character/tile scrolling with normal scrolling. That doesn't work, for obvious reasons you see visually. Ys III scrolling is not like NG scrolling, save for the town area (from what I remember). NG style is supposed to have dynamic tiles for that method. And the large open areas, could have just been done with sprites. You can mix and match for whatever the level design needs. The first level of NG should have been dynamic tiles for the far BG layer. For the first out door level, the foreground should have been sprites - since the far BG is a very big/large repeating area. Not saying it's not doable, just saying it's unrealistic for a developer to go that far out of there way to do such a large dynamic tile pattern (and waste all that space in rom).

QuoteDid it actually scroll backwards?

No, it just 'repop's back into place every so many pixels of scrolling. That's what makes it look so wrong.