1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16

[CrackTiger]

If MK had been released as a Turbo exclusive, reviewers and critics would have started focusing more on how crappy the play mechanics were and how frames of animation were missing and how if the game had been on the Gen or SNES it would have been much better, but since those consoles had a better game in SF2 it was no big loss.

Even if the Turbo received a MK port along side the other versions and even if it was superior all-round, the press would have still wrote about how the graphics, sound and likely gameplay were worse and pointed out stupid little things about it.

I'm not convinced any of the HuCard RPGs released in Japan would've put up good competition for SNES or GEN RPGs.

Although I don't think RPGs of any kind would have made much of a difference, by this rationale, NEC/TTi shouldn't have bothered releasing any Bonk games or really, most Turbo games.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I keep thinking mostly of HuCard stuff.. so I think of Ghost Manor. lol

I guess America at large was just too fucking stupid at the time.

That's what happened.

Average Joe was like HUHGHGUHUHHUHHH I WANNA PLAY ME SOME NHL HAWKEY.  HUHHUHHHHH

and then parents were like OH MY GAWD TURBO? THATS DANGEROUS. MY KIDS SHOULDNT BE GOING FAST.

fuck people.

[spenoza]

I'm not convinced any of the HuCard RPGs released in Japan would've put up good competition for SNES or GEN RPGs.

Although I don't think RPGs of any kind would have made much of a difference, by this rationale, NEC/TTi shouldn't have bothered releasing any Bonk games or really, most Turbo games.

No, I don't think any RPG releases would have changed much, but what I'm saying is, while the CD RPGs were sometimes competitive in audio and visuals, the HuCard RPGs appear to be overly simplistic, and would not have been able to compete on any level with the better RPG titles being released for the SNES and Genesis at that time. But CD RPGs wouldn't have helped much specifically because of the limited ownership base of CD units. Further, RPGs require a LOT more translation work.

No, I think many of the titles released by NEC and later TTI were, in fact, appropriate titles to release. The failure of the TG-16 in the US was as much that the games on the platform simply didn't hold as much appear to American gamers at the time as it was that NEC under-promoted the system. So many major developers weren't developing for the PCE despite how well it did in the Japanese market. Capcom snubbed it complete, choosing to license instead of develop directly. Capcom DID develop for the Genesis/Megadrive, even though the MD did miserably in Japan. Konami released some good titles on the PCE, but it could have done much more.

I'm not convinced the TG-16 was capable of doing well in the US. Does affect how much I love the system, but even if NEC had promoted it more, or if Nintendo hadn't engaged in anti-competitive practices, I'm still not sure the system would have found success.

[DragonmasterDan]

I keep thinking mostly of HuCard stuff.. so I think of Ghost Manor. lol

I guess America at large was just too fucking stupid at the time.

That's what happened.

Average Joe was like HUHGHGUHUHHUHHH I WANNA PLAY ME SOME NHL HAWKEY.  HUHHUHHHHH

Are you sure by America you don't mean Canada in that case?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Necromancer competes well with Phantasy Star 2 and 3.

the other ones (Sindibad, Necross) certainly don't suck.

and these are all late 80s / early 90s (1990).

They hold up perfectly fine against genesis and snes rpgs from that time frame. It's not like FF4 is a frigging power house of marvelous wonder.

By the time the pretty shit was coming out on SNES, the CD library could have been launched in America in full force and bent the SNES and Genesis over the table and sent it in hard without lube.

Startling Odyssey 1 and 2, Anearth, CF3, the wizardry games, LOX 1 and 2...

[Arkhan Asylum]

I keep thinking mostly of HuCard stuff.. so I think of Ghost Manor. lol

I guess America at large was just too fucking stupid at the time.

That's what happened.

Average Joe was like HUHGHGUHUHHUHHH I WANNA PLAY ME SOME NHL HAWKEY.  HUHHUHHHHH

Are you sure by America you don't mean Canada in that case?

lol everyone around here was apeshit for NHL hockey 93, and Joe Montana Football 94.

I myself, liked Sports Talk Baseball.

[BigusSchmuck]

lol everyone around here was apeshit for NHL hockey 93, and Joe Montana Football 94.

I myself, liked Sports Talk Baseball.

Around here it was similar except everyone liked Arch Rivals for some reason or another and Bases Loaded. Oh yeah and Nba Jam and later the NFL Blitz games. Not too many rpg lovers until about Final Fantasy 6 release (3 in the U.S at the time), but even well before that I liked rpgs...
Anyway, it would be interesting to see how well the turbo fared against other failed consoles around that time period here in the U.S...

[Joe Redifer]

and no HuCard RPGs, at all. 

Quit lying!  Final Lap Twin was one of the greatest RPGs of our time.  I now await your public apology.

[T2KFreeker]

I don't know about the RPG argument. I think people forget about a group of gamers that came from the AD&D era. Most of my friends and the like were way into RPG's on the consoles. I still remember us all thinking the Sega Master System was so much better than the Genesis because it had Phantasy Star on it! We ran through games like Shadowgate, Immortal, The Dragon Warrior Games. Zelda was HUGE. When I had my Turbo Grafx and nobody else did, we all went out looking for the Neutopia games and tried, very in Vain sadly, to find AD&D Order of the Phoenix. Also, many of the people I knew were talking about the Turbo Grafx CD system because of the Y's games and the Valis games. We all wanted the Sega CD system too after seeing Lunar the Silver Star and Shining Force CD.Those were the games that were popular here in Palmdale California. Most of the kids here thought that shooters were cool and the like but most of them liked playing those in Arcades. We thought that RPG's were cool because it was something unique to the consoles. Just a side look is all I am saying. RPG's may not have been the end all of the consoles at the time, but there were a large number of gamers that did play them and enjoy them.

Myself and a few others in my hometown were also huge RPG fans and I often saw the same people when buying second hand games through the local paper. But everyone else was playing platformers and the latest edition of NHL' .

There has always been a large number of RPG console fans, but they were always a tiny percentage of the market before FFVII. Even FFIII(VI) was supposed to have broken new ground for RPGs popularity wise, but it and Chrono Trigger and PSIV sold very poorly compared to real hits and were special cases when non-RPG fans would play them, but not hunt down other RPGs afterward.

If RPGs were popular enough before FFVII,  we would have recieved Final Fantasy 2, 3 & 5, at least Dragon Warrior 5 & 6 and Capcom would have brought over Breath of Fire 1.

Yeah, it's just too bad that the audience didn't make their voices heard more. The thing with Final Fantasy VII as well was that it impressed Graphics Whores. Not that it's a bad game, but most people that played it I knew that were "Mainstream Gamers" loved to show off the movie at the beginning of the game and that was it. Very sad. Then we got into FF VIII and I wanted to throw up. The RPG's they make now are usually crap. Sorry, but they are nowhere near as fun as they were back in the day.

[BigusSchmuck]

The RPG's they make now are usually crap. Sorry, but they are nowhere near as fun as they were back in the day.

Well except for Demise: Ascension  (we can create a whole new topic on that one ^^) and maybe the new Dragon Quest games. But yeah, I tend to agree that its all about the eye candy, not so much about the game anymore. Interactive movies (Xenosaga anyone?) seem to  be whats in now.

[Keith Courage]

I think the the turbo grafx would have done much better in the US if it had the big name games that the other systems had. If it were not for the licensing issues of third party companies only working with nintendo or sega then it would have been a different story. I know so many people who bought a snes or genesis just for Street Fighter II. No one knew they could buy it for the turbo since it was an import only. Not to mention no 6 button controller support in the US.

The other problem I think was that most people didn't see the game keith courage as this amazing new type of game. The US audience wanted more of the same(Super Mario Brothers) or at least an included two player game to get your friends in on the fun(Altered beast).

However, on the other hand one reason I like the turbografx/PC engine system is because it has all the odd games that no one has ever heard of. It's like I am tapping into this unforeseen gold mine of gaming fun.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Capcom would have brought over Breath of Fire 1.

uh.

They did.

[nat]

I'm not convinced any of the HuCard RPGs released in Japan would've put up good competition for SNES or GEN RPGs.

I don't know.

Games like Compile's Cyber Knight are pretty freakin' awesome, and a properly translated version could've done really well, I think.

[BigusSchmuck]

I don't know.

Games like Compile's Cyber Knight are pretty freakin' awesome, and a properly translated version could've done really well, I think.

Ohh, never seen that game before, why haven't the rom hacker translated it yet?

[spenoza]

I'm not convinced any of the HuCard RPGs released in Japan would've put up good competition for SNES or GEN RPGs.

I don't know.

Games like Compile's Cyber Knight are pretty freakin' awesome, and a properly translated version could've done really well, I think.

Except that, no matter how much die-hard RPG fans insist RPGs are all about the story, it's really about the graphics and music. The FF series started that trend, but it wasn't until FFIV on the SNES that it was really on. FFVII was just when it became more than a little blatantly obvious.

The PCE could compete at least musically with the SuperCD attachment, but the CD unit was expensive enough it would never have truly been competitive in the US. The SNES and Genesis were good enough for a lot less money.

They hold up perfectly fine against genesis and snes rpgs from that time frame. It's not like FF4 is a frigging power house of marvelous wonder.

By the time the pretty shit was coming out on SNES, the CD library could have been launched in America in full force and bent the SNES and Genesis over the table and sent it in hard without lube.

FFIV was definitely better than most of what had come before, if only a little on the graphical front, certainly on the music front, especially for a cartridge-based game. And again, the CD-ROM unit was too expensive to ever really have a chance at the mainstream in the US. For the amount of money you had to lay out to get a Duo or a Turbo and CD unit, it wasn't better enough. Well, it was better enough for me, but not for most folks. .

[SignOfZeta]

As much as we all love RPGs, they also wouldn't have done shit for NEC in the US. RPGs mostly just lost money in that era.

There was a reason why DQV and VI never came out in English for the SNES, and FFVII was published by Sony. Enix and Square both left the US during the 16-bit time period.

[T2KFreeker]

The RPG's they make now are usually crap. Sorry, but they are nowhere near as fun as they were back in the day.

Well except for Demise: Ascension  (we can create a whole new topic on that one ^^) and maybe the new Dragon Quest games. But yeah, I tend to agree that its all about the eye candy, not so much about the game anymore. Interactive movies (Xenosaga anyone?) seem to  be whats in now.

Ueah, and everyone bitched about FMV games in the 90's!

[Arkhan Asylum]

The HuCards can compete graphically, no problem. Necromancer and Cyberknight are both on par with Phantasy Star.  A HuCard game could do what FFIV was doing.  By the time FFV and VI were out, the CD ROM would have pounded its face in. 

I don't buy the "it's too expensive" thing for the CD-drive if you're going for RPGs.

If the Turbo CD had half the RPGs we never got, I am 100% certain all the RPG spazzes that dropped 75$ on Chrono Trigger would have bought a Turbo CD when they saw games like LOX, Startling Odyssey, Anearth Fantasy Stories, Emerald Dragon, and the rest of the Cosmic Fantasy games.  If the Wizardry games launched here on the Turbo CD, I could safely say that at least half the people I know from gaming conventions would have stabbed someone to buy a Turbo CD and play them.  These are the kind of people that beat Pool of Radiance with characters that have straight 10s for stats and have no magic spells, just to see if they can manage it. 

I also don't buy it that RPGs just weren't doing it well here thing.  Tons of magazines had sections dedicated to RPGs, and people were basically foaming at the mouth for RPGs.  Even Nintendo Power did spreads on RPGs.  They covered Legacy of the Wizard and Ultima III at one point.  AKA: "This is too hard what do I do" and "This is really hard I don't like it!"  to the majority of the sissies that play it.

If they had just brought over Necromancer early on.  Just that ONE single game, I bet it would have helped sway the Dragon Warrior NES fans into giving it a better shot.   Necromancer is an amazing game.  Cyberknight would have swayed the Phantasy Star people into trying it, Sindibad is a bit ho-hum but as good as Dragon Warrior 1 and 2 (maybe 3, kinda). 

So, they should have given it a shot.  It's better than 0 hucard rpgs except for racing and tennis quests, lol.

and fuckin Outlive, that games just awesome.  I can't think of anyone that wouldn't think so.

[DragonmasterDan]

The HuCards can compete graphically, no problem. Necromancer and Cyberknight are both on par with Phantasy Star.  A HuCard game could do what FFIV was doing.  By the time FFV and VI were out, the CD ROM would have pounded its face in. 

I don't buy the "it's too expensive" thing for the CD-drive if you're going for RPGs.

It was too expensive for most of the people buying video games back then, since they were buying them for children. In the 16-bit era the perception in North America was that video games were a toy for kids.

If the Turbo CD had half the RPGs we never got, I am 100% certain all the RPG spazzes that dropped 75$ on Chrono Trigger would have bought a Turbo CD when they saw games like LOX, Startling Odyssey, Anearth Fantasy Stories, Emerald Dragon, and the rest of the Cosmic Fantasy games.  If the Wizardry games launched here on the Turbo CD, I could safely say that at least half the people I know from gaming conventions would have stabbed someone to buy a Turbo CD and play them.  These are the kind of people that beat Pool of Radiance with characters that have straight 10s for stats and have no magic spells, just to see if they can manage it. 

I'm sure the people who were hardcore into RPGs would have been more likely to buy it, but with less than 70,000 Turbo CD and Duos sold in the US even doubling those sales would have only been a drop in the bucket compared to the numbers of units Nintendo and Sega were moving. In the US, Chrono Trigger didn't sell that well on Super NES. I remember seeing copies on clearance around 1997 for 19.99. Earthbound didn't sell well either, neither did the Final Fantasy games. The people who go to gaming conventions are the minority of the audience you are trying to sell to. We hardcore gamers should not be used as a measuring stick of what other people will buy.

I also don't buy it that RPGs just weren't doing it well here thing.  Tons of magazines had sections dedicated to RPGs, and people were basically foaming at the mouth for RPGs.  Even Nintendo Power did spreads on RPGs.  They covered Legacy of the Wizard and Ultima III at one point.  AKA: "This is too hard what do I do" and "This is really hard I don't like it!"  to the majority of the sissies that play it.

The people buying GameFan were the hardcore players, make no mistake about it. Nintendo Power had spreads on RPGs in part because it's easier to produce lengthy amounts of contents from RPGs than other genres like platformers since there's just more to cover.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Toy for kids?  Maybe Cleveland was an anomaly then, because growing up, my adult family members were all playing SNES and NES.

This includes my grandfather, who will fuck you up in Dr. Mario and make you cry. 

I'm fairly certain if we had a fist full of HuCard RPGs, at least one 2.5D beat em up, and a run and gun that wasn't Bloody Wolf, things would have been different.

Way different.

[SignOfZeta]

If Final Fantasy couldn't keep Square in business, and Dragon Warrior couldn't keep Enix in business, how would RPGs for the TG16 do well for NEC?

[CrackTiger]

Capcom would have brought over Breath of Fire 1.

uh.

They did.

No they didn't. They didn't think that it was worth it as a major publisher. So they allowed a company that was fine carving out small but steady profit in the niche RPG market have it instead. Capcom later decided that they could take advantage of all the advertising that Square had done with the original and aped their cover art and ad campaign when they released Breath of Fire 2 over here. Even then, they only bothered after Final Fantasy III broke new ground for RPGs commercially and they couldn't be bothered to do more than a basic translation.

[BigusSchmuck]

No they didn't. They didn't think that it was worth it as a major publisher. So they allowed a company that was fine carving out small but steady profit in the niche RPG market have it instead. Capcom later decided that they could take advantage of all the advertising that Square had done with the original and aped their cover art and ad campaign when they released Breath of Fire 2 over here. Even then, they only bothered after Final Fantasy III broke new ground for RPGs commercially and they couldn't be bothered to do more than a basic translation.

Yes they did, I rented it at Block Buster back in the day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire_%28video_game%29
Breath of Fire 2 had one of the worst translations ever, say no and it means yes and all sorts of weird bugs.
Before people start going off that the turbo cd was too expensive, remember that the snes debuted at $200 when it first came out and the Genesis was $189 at launch date. Factor in that the sega cd was $300 just for the unit and how the duo was $300 its a no brainer which system was more expensive. Another thing, I don't believe we ever saw a $70 dollar turbo hucard/cd game here in the U.S whereeas there were quite a few on the snes and the genesis.
So I don't buy that argument it was too expensive, we just didn't get to see half of the good games that came out in Japan that made it over here.

[nectarsis]

No they didn't. They didn't think that it was worth it as a major publisher. So they allowed a company that was fine carving out small but steady profit in the niche RPG market have it instead. Capcom later decided that they could take advantage of all the advertising that Square had done with the original and aped their cover art and ad campaign when they released Breath of Fire 2 over here. Even then, they only bothered after Final Fantasy III broke new ground for RPGs commercially and they couldn't be bothered to do more than a basic translation.

Yes they did, I rented it at Block Buster back in the day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire_%28video_game%29
Breath of Fire 2 had one of the worst translations ever, say no and it means yes and all sorts of weird bugs.
Before people start going off that the turbo cd was too expensive, remember that the snes debuted at $200 when it first came out and the Genesis was $189 at launch date. Factor in that the sega cd was $300 just for the unit and how the duo was $300 its a no brainer which system was more expensive. Another thing, I don't believe we ever saw a $70 dollar turbo hucard/cd game here in the U.S whereeas there were quite a few on the snes and the genesis.
So I don't buy that argument it was too expensive, we just didn't get to see half of the good games that came out in Japan that made it over here.

Go back and read again ;)  Capcom DID NOT bring it over...Square did

[spenoza]

Yes they did, I rented it at Block Buster back in the day.

You played BoF, but you played it as released by Square, a company already comfortable with RPGs. Capcom wasn't willing to commit to releasing it themselves because the RPG market was not mature enough in their eyes.

Before people start going off that the turbo cd was too expensive, remember that the snes debuted at $200 when it first came out and the Genesis was $189 at launch date. Factor in that the sega cd was $300 just for the unit and how the duo was $300 its a no brainer which system was more expensive. Another thing, I don't believe we ever saw a $70 dollar turbo hucard/cd game here in the U.S whereeas there were quite a few on the snes and the genesis.
So I don't buy that argument it was too expensive, we just didn't get to see half of the good games that came out in Japan that made it over here.

Do you recall how well the Sega CD sold? And it had several decent RPGs thanks to Working Designs. Here's a hint: not well at all. The TurboGrafx-16 was also expensive when first released, $199 IIRC. By the time the Duo was released in the US the $299 selling point was no consolation. The system was already on life-support and the SNES and Genesis were priced lower and had large libraries of high-profile games with good advertising that appealed to a large audience. TTI was not, in any way, going to be able to compete with that.

No, I'm pretty convinced there was no magic bullet for the TG16. I don't want to say it was destined for failure in the US market, but there were a number of strikes against it right from the start. I think NEC could have handled the situation better, but the market failure of the TG wasn't due solely to their mishandling, and, in retrospect, I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and suggest they didn't do as badly as we tend to claim they did. Sega prepared carefully for their US launch, making sure they had their ducks in a row. Sega America was VERY effective right out the gate. Nintendo came in knowing Sega would challenge them in a way they hadn't in Japan, so they also came prepared for a fight. NEC basically was between a rock and a hard place.

[Arkhan Asylum]

No they didn't. They didn't think that it was worth it as a major publisher. So they allowed a company that was fine carving out small but steady profit in the niche RPG market have it instead. Capcom later decided that they could take advantage of all the advertising that Square had done with the original and aped their cover art and ad campaign when they released Breath of Fire 2 over here. Even then, they only bothered after Final Fantasy III broke new ground for RPGs commercially and they couldn't be bothered to do more than a basic translation.

Yes they did, I rented it at Block Buster back in the day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath_of_Fire_%28video_game%29
Breath of Fire 2 had one of the worst translations ever, say no and it means yes and all sorts of weird bugs.
Before people start going off that the turbo cd was too expensive, remember that the snes debuted at $200 when it first came out and the Genesis was $189 at launch date. Factor in that the sega cd was $300 just for the unit and how the duo was $300 its a no brainer which system was more expensive. Another thing, I don't believe we ever saw a $70 dollar turbo hucard/cd game here in the U.S whereeas there were quite a few on the snes and the genesis.
So I don't buy that argument it was too expensive, we just didn't get to see half of the good games that came out in Japan that made it over here.

Go back and read again ;)  Capcom DID NOT bring it over...Square did

Oh man, I just went and looked at the cartridge.  That's funny.  I guess I never really paid that much attention to who put it out.  BOF3 is the only one thats important.

Anyway,

Dragon Warrior kept Enix in business.  Everyone and their mother knows what Dragon Quest is in Japan.  Maybe it didn't catch on right here... but what else is new.  Nothing good catches on in USA.

Theres lots of "that wouldnt have helped" going on here.  What the fuck would've helped then?

Shitty western games (mortal kombat), a few more decent western games, a beat em up, and 2 player support built in?

[ccovell]

Basically, 1990 was the best year ever for the Turbo, and 1991 the complete opposite.  NEC kinda demonstrated going in to 1991 that they were relying a lot that year on US-made softs, perhaps as a new strategy, perhaps as an admission of desperation...  Anyway, NEC finished the year not just 3rd but a distant 4th.

[SignOfZeta]

Obviously DQ made truckloads of money for Enix, but not in the US, the country where the TG-16 was released, which is what we are talking about. They left the US...I think after Ogre Battle was released.

As for what WOULD have worked, I really thing the answer is "nothing". Sometimes things are just doomed. It might have succeeded if it were basically a completely different machine with totally different software, but then that really wouldn't be the "TG-16" as we know it.

A similar situation: the original XBox in Japan. That system failed SO HARD in Japan that it was being outsold by systems that had already been out of production like the Gameboy Color and Dreamcast. When the PS2 was selling 50,000 units a week the XB was selling, literally, 8 units. What could have saved it? Maybe 100 or so "killer apps". As it was the thing was a giant loud black American box with almost zero Japanese games on it. It was fucked from day one.

[sheath]

I agree, as early as 1990 I saw Game Players, EGM and Gamepro labeling the TG16 library as "quirky" and Japanese.  Short of getting some killer western studios to make a steady stream of western games, and more sports games, the TG16 was going to be labeled "niche" no matter what.  Really though, if by 1991 NEC could have started releasing more of the NES adaptations, or better yet, reprogrammed same year NES games and released them quickly, I think a $99 TG16 might have given the NES a run for its money.  I for one would have killed for 16-bitafied NES games, and 1990-92 were some of the NES' best years.

[spenoza]

On this rarest of occasions I'm with Zeta. I'm not sure there was a path to success for the TG-16 in the US. The system itself, the core hardware, could have been successful, but only in a hypothetical sense. So many things would need to have been done differently, in the Japanese game market as well, to make that hardware a success here in the US that I'm not sure it's worth discussing how things could have been fixed.

We should appreciate what we got and support those in our community who are developing new games and translating old. Regardless of how things went down, it is indeed our system, and for better or worse this system appealed to us and was, intentionally or not, marketed to us.

[Edmond Dantes]

We should appreciate what we got and support those in our community who are developing new games and translating old. Regardless of how things went down, it is indeed our system, and for better or worse this system appealed to us and was, intentionally or not, marketed to us.

Amen.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Am I the only one who doesn't give two dicks about any Western made games from that era really?

You don't see me beating off to Wizards and Warriors and NES or Solar Crapman.

What would have helped was a less-corny marketing campaign, a real street fighter, and tits.  Lots of them.

[jlued686]

Found this reprint of an old EGM article addressing "TurboGrafx-16 vs. Genesis". Agree or disagree with the content, it does a good job of illustrating what the mindset was at the time. One thing I found interesting was that they said if the PC Engine was included in the comparison, it would win hands-down over the Turbo and Genesis because of its amazing and diverse library. The conclusion seemed to be that if NEC was able to capitalize on that library and bring a good bulk of those games, it would have a great chance. However, because of the NES and their third-party licensee agreements, that would be difficult to do.

Anyway, here's the article:
http://classicgaming.gamespy.com/View.php?view=ConsoleMuseum.Detail&id=34

[Arkhan Asylum]

NES wasn't stopping brilliant games like Necromancer, Marchen Maze and Legend of Valkyrie from coming over. 

Completely stupidity on the other hand......

[Mathius]

NES wasn't stopping brilliant games like Necromancer, Marchen Maze and Legend of Valkyrie from coming over. 

Completely stupidity on the other hand......

Oh NEC. How we love that ignorant bitch. 

[BigusSchmuck]

Wish there was a scan of that 1998 issue of EGM of the top 100 games. Then again, no one liked how they put tetris and Super Metroid in the top ten...

[Mathius]

Wish there was a scan of that 1998 issue of EGM of the top 100 games. Then again, no one liked how they put tetris and Super Metroid in the top ten...

Not sure why anyone wouldn't like Super Metroid being on a top ten list. ...Best game ever IMO.

[Edmond Dantes]

Oh goodness, I used to have that issue of EGM.  Was that the one where Tetris was named #1 best game of all time?

It was also the article that introduced me to Gate of Thunder and Military Madness.  At the time I was mad that Romance of the Three Kingdoms didn't even rank, but I've since learned the error of my ways.

and Arkhan, I'm normally not a big fan of western developers either, but I think the point is that having more third party developers on both sides of the ocean would've given the Turbo a big boost.  And, well, anyone who has played Risk can't argue with that   Isn't Beyond Shadowgate considered one of the TG16's killer apps?  And Loom is considered a very good game on the TG16... and that's a port of a computer game.  Imagine if the Turbo had ports of Sierra's Space Quest series!  In fact, someone please rewrite history and make that happen, because the idea is just too awesome to let die.

[Arkhan Asylum]

the good western games would have helped, sure, but bringing over the plethora of already existing games that kicked ass and never came would have been helpful too.

we got Shadow of the Beast, and most people think that games dumb.

I still dunno why Wizardry wasnt released here.  They could have lured in the CRPG fans with those seeing as M&M 3 was here.  and a D&D game.

There were some other good western PC games that could have arrived, but oh well.

[SignOfZeta]

It's true. In the age of Call of Duty, GTA, etc, people forget that in 1990 there were nearly zero western games that anyone gave two shits about. I can't imagine any American TG16 even being a best seller, let alone saving the system.

[jlued686]

I think the Nintendo licensee thing had the most effect on games like Double Dragon, Ninja Gaiden etc. Those games were fuckin' HUGE back then. PC Engine had 'em, TurboGrafx didn't.

[BigusSchmuck]

I still dunno why Wizardry wasnt released here.  They could have lured in the CRPG fans with those seeing as M&M 3 was here.  and a D&D game.

Started playing Wizardry on the Turbo now have we? ^^ I got some weird looks from my pals when I included Skyrim music into Wizardry 3 ^^
Speaking of which, wonder how hard it would have been to port over Pools of Radiance, Dragon Lance and Azure Bonds? Could have been very interesting...

[Arkhan Asylum]

I still dunno why Wizardry wasnt released here.  They could have lured in the CRPG fans with those seeing as M&M 3 was here.  and a D&D game.

Started playing Wizardry on the Turbo now have we? ^^ I got some weird looks from my pals when I included Skyrim music into Wizardry 3 ^^
Speaking of which, wonder how hard it would have been to port over Pools of Radiance, Dragon Lance and Azure Bonds? Could have been very interesting...

Yeah I fired them up seeing as I have them but never played them.  I pummeled them on NES/DOS when I was younger.  I don't really get why they never came to the Turbo.  Even today though, SirTech is gone, and gave the rights to Japan and we didn't even get a real copy of the newest Wizardry.  its DLC only.

Skyrim blows.  I don't get whats so great.  Gimme daggerfall or gimme death.

It would have been fuck-all easy to port any of the goldbox games back then.  NES had Pool of radiance.  ANy of those games would have been doable..  Why didn't they?  Stupidity.

OotG was a very nicely done game, but lacked the Goldbox effect as much as it should have.

[Joe Redifer]

I can't imagine any American TG16 even being a best seller, let alone saving the system.

Well, since Call of Duty is American, they could have just put that on the TurboGrafx-16.  Same with Skyrim.  We may not have liked those games but they would have saved the console, especially if they were exclusive.  Both games sold more units than there are physical TurboGrafx-16's in existence.  They would have had to make more systems because of the high demand.  You know what else would have helped the system?  Another Might and Magic game because those games are so intense and full of fun.  It would have been especially great if they required you to roll dice in real life as part of the game playing experience.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I'm not sure what kind of bullshit stab that comment is towards CRPGs really?... I mean the next game would have been Clouds of Xeen, and that game is one of the high points of 90s RPGs.

Have you actually played any of them?  The first M&M released on PCE CD is an interesting rehash of the first game that gives it a lot of character.   Then Isles of Terra is a perfect port of the game.  There is plenty of intense parts of these games.

Creeping down corridors, making sure you're ready for traps, or monsters ahead... flinging missile weapons and spells before they close in, followed by bashing their fucking faces in. 

They're real adventure games.  None of this broke ass Skyrim crap where giants beat dragons to death, you can put pots on peoples heads and steal everything, and you can ramp a horse up a mountain.

Oh and you can 3 hit a bear with your fists where it takes 5-8 slashes with your sword. 

American games blow, and so do American gamers, to be honest.

Look at Wizardry now.  Labyrinth of Lost Souls wasn't even released on physical media in the states because they knew it would hardly sell because everyone these days is a dipshit pussy that can't do anything but complain and then try to get all the achievements in their hamster trail adventure games.

I don't need a gamer score and achievements to tell me or others that I know how to play a game.

All I need is a few rounds of me beating them senseless with Dhalsim, a few plays of Lords of Thunder, and some crazed runs in games like Contra, Jackal, Joust, Aldynes, and Gunbird to tell people I'm not some friggin retard gamer.

I love getting on XBL at my friends with my account that has like, 30 points on it.  I go on SFIV and beat peoples dicks in and laugh at them all.

Americans are too fixated on having high profile rankings/scores, and bragging rights in shitty games.   Half these pole smokers can't even beat the first level of China Warrior before they run to youtube and go OMG THE WORST GAME EVAR BECAUSE LOOK AT IT ITS LIKE OH MY GOD CHINA AND OH MY GOD ITS SO BAD THE GRAPHICS SUCK, THERES BETTER GRAPHICS IN GEARS OF WAR, AND LOOK AT THIS GUY HE KICKS LIKE HES GOT A BROKEN LEG, AND THE MONKS LOOK LIKE DARTH MAUL'S GAY BROTHER.

and crap.

Fuck em.

[BigusSchmuck]

You know, we can probably start a whole new thread of games that should have been ported to the turbo.

All I need is a few rounds of me beating them senseless with Dhalsim, a few plays of Lords of Thunder, and some crazed runs in games like Contra, Jackal, Joust, Aldynes, and Gunbird to tell people I'm not some friggin retard gamer.

You forgot to mention Demise *Ascension just came out this year btw* in there too. ^^ At any rate, more crpgs ported onto the turbo would have been nice and I think we all agree if they got the same treatment as the japanese did to the Wizardry games and Might and Magic, things could have turned out differently. Makes one wonder how hard it truly was to port what we got already...

[Joe Redifer]

Americans are too fixated on having high profile rankings/scores, and bragging rights in shitty games.

That must be why the Japanese started putting high scores in games like Space Invaders, then.  Oh, wait... only SHITTY GAMES have high score tables and people fixated with getting the high score.  My bad.  And yes, Might and Magic bores me to tears.  It's a piece of shit.  It wouldn't help sell ANY videogame console.  You know why?  Because anybody who cared for Western shit back then bought them on the crusty computers of the time.  

Are you saying that if people took the time to beat level 1 of China Warrior, they'd like it?  Is everyone supposed to have your exact taste in gaming?  That sure would be uninteresting.

[Arkhan Asylum]

That must be why the Japanese started putting high scores in games like Space Invaders, then.  Oh, wait... only SHITTY GAMES have high score tables and people fixated with getting the high score.

There is a huge gaping difference between a high score table in an arcade game, and some dumbass profile/points system in games where the points you acquire are based off doing stupid shit like "OPEN 385 DOORS WITHOUT WALKING RIGHT" and "COLLECT 300 BRONZE PIPES" or something stupid.

You're confusing "high score" with "high profile score".  lrn2slash.

High profile score AKA Gamerscore is completely unrelated to any score in a game and is some modern way for hipster douchebags to think they're good at video games.  It's really just the numerical representation of how much time you waste doing retarded shit in a game rather than playing something else since you're done with that game.  There are people who grind out for 20+ hours in an RPG AFTER beating the game, just so they can get some achievement for getting everyone to level 99.  The only purpose it serves is to artificially extend the length of the game.  60 hours of gameplay!  ...But only 30 of it is the real game.  the other 30 is how long it takes for you to get all the ACHIVEMENTS!1123.   And then you get m4x g43m3rsc0r3z and a 5 star ranked profile and join the OMG UNDERGROUND with all the other people who would probably be pressing the continue button before the end of the first base in Contra.

My bad.  And yes, Might and
Magic bores me to tears.  It's a piece of shit.  It wouldn't help sell ANY videogame console.  You know why?  Because anybody who cared for Western shit back then bought them on the crusty computers of the time. 

Declaring M&M a piece of shit is a pretty bold statement.  What makes it a piece of shit?  Which ones have you played, and did you even make it past the character generator?  Do you even like RPGs?

And, really? Crusty computers? You mean the PC/Amiga, which were around at the same time as the TG and Genesis, and completely smoked it in terms of power and capabilities?   

Are you saying that if people took the time to beat level 1 of China Warrior, they'd like it?  Is everyone supposed to have your exact taste in gaming?  That sure would be uninteresting.

No, I'm saying your typical "hardcore gamer" today is some FPS pudwacker that has no appreciation for games that came out before Quake 2, and will make all kinds of superficial remarks towards the game instead of enjoying it for what it is.  Not that they probably have the ability to play any old games properly because there is no mouse/keyboard, or dual thumb-stick controller setup for the TG or any other 8/16bit console.

I have the unfortunate displeasure of being surrounded by gamers at school, and from mutual friends.  Most of these modern gamers in the 20-30 age bracket are all dumbasses.  The worst ones are the ones that are going to school for "video game design" or are "making a game" because they're doing some 3D models in a class.

Making 3D models for homework != developing a game.  Try explaining this to some herpderp Apple user.  It's like trying to teach a 4 year old different equations.  It's hilarious when someone who can't program says they are developing a game, when they have 0 intention of writing code.

then they start talking about companies' design/business model philosophies and go on and on about how great Steam is because they went on a tour and ate up all their hipster bullshit. 

"All the developers we're in cool t shirts, and had on jeans!  There was food in the breakroom! Everyone was happy!"

yes, because steam is the ONLY place where people are happy to be making games, and have no dresscode.  Totally groundbreaking.  Fuck off. (Not you, the idiot that said it)

[Joe Redifer]

I'm not even going to bother to read your entire post because it seems you are too emotional about this.  Calm. the. hell. down.  They're only videogames.

[spenoza]

Joe, Master of Opinionated Sarcasm, strikes fear and anger in the hearts of the weak.

I think the western RPGs of the time were doing just fine on PC, which is where I preferred to play them. Not sure I would have wanted to tackle Might and Magic or Wizardry on the PC Engine.