Does anyone REALLY like Street Fighter II on the PC Engine?

[CrackTiger]

I like the PCE version, but I have to honestly say it's not the best. While it has many good points, let us not forget the following flaws of the PCE version:

1. No multiple speed settings like the SNES/Genesis versions both had. (I really liked this, and I doubt the PCE could have handled it.)
2. That black space at the top of the screen.
3. Only one PCM channel makes it so the PCE version doesn't have multiple simultaneous voices

Personally, I prefer the Genesis 6-button controller over the Avenue Pad 6. SNES pad sucks for SFII.

1. The arcade only had one speed. Both the arcade and PCE are more than capable of pulling it off. But it's a feature of Turbo/Hyper Fighting, so you might as well compare it to SSFIIT. Why exactly do you think that the PCE couldn't handle speed? Do you think that it is weak? Have you played many PCE games?

2. The PCE version has the same exact same amount of black space/bars as the SNES version. The Genesis version has 8 extra pixels of visible background. The PCE version at least uses the black space to host the score text (and has superior fonts all-round).

3. The Genesis only has one sound channel and you can hear what it sounds like to split it for overlapping samples. The PCE can do 6 samples at once and uses a second channel for music and sfx samples. The only reason the PCE version doesn't overlap the voices is because the arcade didn't do it. Both the arcade and PCE are more than capable of pulling it off.


The SNES stock pad is the equivalent of the giant stock 3-button pad for Genesis. If you can swap in a Genesis 6-button pad, you can swap in a good SFII-friendly SNES pad. Like the Hori Fighting pad which is available for both PCE and SFC.

[incrediblehark]

I really like the pce version. the speed settings were overrated to me anyway, and i actually like the music. I like playing Street Fighter on every system it was released, each one has its own charms. If its not the arcade version its not going to be perfect anyway. and the Hori Fighting commander is a lot better than the avenue pad 6.

[SignOfZeta]

Dang. People do not understand SFII very well...kind of amazing considering it was THE game for a couple of years.

A few things:

There are five versions of SFII. The most popular one today is Super Street Fighter II Turbo (aka: SSFIIX) which didn't even get a 16bit home port. The PCE version is SFII': Champion Edition which was the least significant upgrade Capcom made. It allowed two people to play the same character against each other and the ability to play as bosses. It also had minor ballence tweaks but it needed a LOT more. I am not one to complain about ballence AT ALL in fighting games but this this is crazy. Furthermore, its so slow that all the unfair shit like re-dizzy combos are really easy to pull off.

All 16bit console ports are letterboxed and have resized sprites. This is partially related to shrinking the ROM size but also because Capcom's CPS systems use a weird resolution. Ask JapJac about that.

All versions have fucked up sound, including the arcade. What I mean by this is that they all sound like the system they came from. As shitty as the Genesis sounds, it's more in line with the arcade version, and late 80s/early 90s arcade sound in general. The SNES version is much cleaner sounding but more it's own sound than the arcade sound. Etc.

All OEM controllers sucked for SFII so bullshit comparisons between Avenue 6 and SNES or whatever are pointless. It takes an act of God to achieve a decent combo on any of that crap. While Sega's six button is probably best, and Sega's three button the absolute worst,  the real choice back then was a stick from Hori, MAS, or someone else.

[RegalSin]

So we all can agree that Street Fighter II is an issue that must not be ignored.

[BigusSchmuck]

I don't see why people think the chip tunes are superior to that of the snes version, but whatever. Its a great version nevertheless, about the only reason why I would have gotten this back in the day is to play it on the go as I already had the snes turbo version.

[SignOfZeta]

So we all can agree that Street Fighter II is an issue that must not be ignored.

Post of the Month Award material right there.

[Keith Courage]

I definitely prefer the PCE version over the Genesis one.

[Joe Redifer]

I don't see why people think the chip tunes are superior to that of the snes version

Protip:  All music on the SNES is "chiptunes."

[arromdee]

There are five versions of SFII. The most popular one today is Super Street Fighter II Turbo (aka: SSFIIX) which didn't even get a 16bit home port.

I don't think that's right.  There are three versions that can be considered the same game with addons: SF2, Champion Edition, and Hyper Fighting.

The Super Street Fighter series wasn't even on the same arcade board.

[FraGMarE]

I like the PCE version, but I have to honestly say it's not the best. While it has many good points, let us not forget the following flaws of the PCE version:

1. No multiple speed settings like the SNES/Genesis versions both had. (I really liked this, and I doubt the PCE could have handled it.)

lol say what?!?!  the PCE could have EASILY handled hyper fighting mode(s).  It's the same exact damn game with sped up character animations and a few extra moves per character...  there's nothing really fancy or special about that.  Even the SNES's turd of a CPU (which is considerably slower in both clock speed and overall efficiency than the Genesis or PCE CPU) could handle hyper fighting just fine.  I'm pretty sure the only reasons they didn't include hyper fighting in the PCE version were a.) time constraints.  they wanted to get the game on shelves before the SFC/MD versions came out.  b.) ROM size/cost.  That little bit of extra code and the few additional sprites required for hyper fighting mode would have pushed it over the 20Mbit limit and they would have needed to make it a 24Mbit HuCard (with a considerable amount of wasted space).  While I enjoy hyper fighting and would have liked to see NEC include it in the release, i fully understand why they didn't.  Working on hacking/translating the PCE SF2' ROM with Tom a couple years back made me understand just how tightly the SF2 HuCard is packed with data.  There's not much room to spare.

[esteban]

I read this entire thread, again, from the first post. "Why?" I ask myself.

So, seriously, here are some things I'm curious about:

(1) I always assume that the most fun would involve two evenly-matched human players
(2) Since #1 is not always possible, I would assume that single-player mode is important for many folks?
(3) Are there important (albeit subtle) differences in the AI (across all ____ versions of SF II) for single-player matches?

If I were a fan of SF II, I know that the single-player experience would be an important consideration when evaluating a game. My brother, who has always been obsessed with SF II, prefers playing with humans.

Cook prefers to mash buttons when playing Street Fighter II'.

[spenoza]

I don't see why people think the chip tunes are superior to that of the snes version

Protip:  All music on the SNES is "chiptunes."

Well, one could argue that since the SNES's audio is sample-based like the Amiga, rather than waveform-based like PSG and FM synth, that it might be considered a slightly different beast.

[TurboXray]

I don't see why people think the chip tunes are superior to that of the snes version

Protip:  All music on the SNES is "chiptunes."

Well, one could argue that since the SNES's audio is sample-based like the Amiga, rather than waveform-based like PSG and FM synth, that it might be considered a slightly different beast.

Meh, it's just a different form of creating the instruments. Sample based synth. It's not like they're nothing but samples playing by some list or such, or like the PCM channel setups on the Genesis and PCE/TG16. The sample is only one part of the over all 'instrument', it's pitch bent into the whole octave range and have modifiers like volume envelope, lfo envelope, loop points inside the sample for further keying and bending the sound, etc. The SPU in the SNES could easily replicate the PCE audio (one 32sample waveform, played at different frequencies). But yeah, most people associate chiptune with more primitive audio hardware. But really, it just means chip generated music in realtime VS prerecorded like red book or just streaming in general.

[spenoza]

I don't see why people think the chip tunes are superior to that of the snes version

Protip:  All music on the SNES is "chiptunes."

Well, one could argue that since the SNES's audio is sample-based like the Amiga, rather than waveform-based like PSG and FM synth, that it might be considered a slightly different beast.

Meh, it's just a different form of creating the instruments. Sample based synth. It's not like they're nothing but samples playing by some list or such, or like the PCM channel setups on the Genesis and PCE/TG16. The sample is only one part of the over all 'instrument', it's pitch bent into the whole octave range and have modifiers like volume envelope, lfo envelope, loop points inside the sample for further keying and bending the sound, etc. The SPU in the SNES could easily replicate the PCE audio (one 32sample waveform, played at different frequencies). But yeah, most people associate chiptune with more primitive audio hardware. But really, it just means chip generated music in realtime VS prerecorded like red book or just streaming in general.

I think to many, however, chiptune implies a certain kind of sound, and while some SNES tunes do have that kind of sound, many others sound more like MOD, IT, or S3M tracker files, which have a distinctly different sound than chiptunes. Also, the SNES has that DSP and seems to default to doing lots of funky filtering (which actually makes some things sound less good) and thus renders things less chip-tune-y. By your argument, with which I don't entirely disagree, quite a bit of Playstation and Saturn audio could be considered chiptunes, even though those tunes often sound commensurate with yellow book and red book audio.

So I guess it kinda depends on whether you view chiptunes from a strictly technical viewpoint, a mostly technical viewpoint, or an artistic/stylistic viewpoint.

[Joe Redifer]

SNES is 100% chiptunes.  Case closed.

[CrackTiger]

I don't see why people think the chip tunes are superior to that of the snes version, but whatever. Its a great version nevertheless, about the only reason why I would have gotten this back in the day is to play it on the go as I already had the snes turbo version.

The composition, or actual "music", sounds better to many people, myself included. Whether you enjoy the sounds being used by any version more than others is a separate aspect. Most retro game commentors online seem to be completely oblivious to the actual music in games (which many seem to not even actually play) and are only concerned with the type of sound being used. Again, going by the comments I often read, many of those people don't even seem to actually listen to the sounds being used either, and only like the sound of their favorite console while despising the sounds of rival consoles. More often than not these people are SNES fans.

[ccovell]

The word "chiptune" is said to originate on the Amiga, actually (ca. 1988-89).  Amiga MODs, etc, usually used large samples for "modern" sounding music, but some composers and tracker programmers opted to use extremely short SID-like sample loops (square waves, triangle, etc) to sound like older sound chips.

"Chiptune" was invented after sample-based computers came along to distinguish the two styles of sound.  Before that they were just called SIDs, beeper-music, etc.

[spenoza]

"Chiptune" was invented after sample-based computers came along to distinguish the two styles of sound.  Before that they were just called SIDs, beeper-music, etc.

So, pre-Amiga music would be chiptunes, and Amiga and modern audio would be post chiptune?

[Arkhan Asylum]

nowadays Chiptune is just the hipster douche slang for over arped horse shit.

[esteban]

So, can anyone help answer my earlier questions about different versions of SFII providing different AI?

I'm not interested in attempts by Capcom to "balance" the players' strengths/weaknesses. I'm talking about the sophistication of the computer opponent's offensive/defensive strategies.

nowadays Chiptune is just the hipster douche slang for over arped horse shit.

Suck my HuC6230, you arpeggio-hatin' bastard.

[Joe Redifer]

nowadays Chiptune is just the hipster douche slang for over arped horse shit.

Quoted for fuckin' truth.

[SignOfZeta]

So, can anyone help answer my earlier questions about different versions of SFII providing different AI?

I'm not interested in attempts by Capcom to "balance" the players' strengths/weaknesses. I'm talking about the sophistication of the computer opponent's offensive/defensive strategies.

AI is pretty primitive on any fighting game. Did things actually change across the five versions of SFII? Well, yeah, because they added four more characters and those have needed AI routines. Other than that...? Probably not. Playing SFII by yourself is the sound of one hand clapping. Its pointless. The game hasn't retained its popularity for 20 years because of the one player experience.

Other things:

There are most definitely five versions of SFII. Its total revisionist bullshit to say now, 20 years later, that many of these revisions are so slight they don't deserve to be called different games. Sure, some of the upgrades were very minor (mainly SFII') but they are different games. They have different entries in Capcom's catalog they were released on home systems with different names, and only two actually share the same board, IIRC. Turbo was sold as an upgrade to Dash, but I think it was also sold complete. SFII is non-upgradable, as are Super and Super Turbo, which were both sold on non-upgradable CPS2 boards. I might be wrong about a details or two there, but the idea is basically correct.

The SNES makes chip tunes. The "sound" isn't what makes it a chip tune. The term existed long before the current definition. If its not coming out of a tape or a CD or a solid state synths (i.e.: the Space Invaders arcade board) then its chip tunes.

[spenoza]

Seems to me the term "chiptune" is ill-defined and has variable meaning depending on context and the community using it. I don't think our discussion has solved anything. It's pretty unimportant, anyway. Ambiguous terminology seems to exist only to cause arguments.

I think of Street Fighter II as a 2.0 release, with II' being 2.5 and II Turbo being a 2.7, at least by feel. And Super feels like a 3.0 release, with Super Turbo being 3.2. They're all different, clearly, but they're all also clearly sharing the same lineage.

[bust3dstr8]

Capcom released a sixth game on CPS2 which is all the 5 versions in one handy dandy case.

[Ninja Spirit]

Sharp X68000 version takes it

[Tatsujin]

lol, x68k was the system that MADE Street Fighter II, how could it get possibly better than that?

[SuperDeadite]

lol, x68k was the system that MADE Street Fighter II, how could it get possibly better than that?

FM Towns

[spenoza]

NM, pointless post.

[Samurai Ghost]

Fools! The Sega Master System port is the only one that matters:

[Starfighter]

That is actually pretty cool!

[Nando]

Fools! The Sega Master System port is the only one that matters:

Damn

[CrackTiger]

That is actually pretty cool!

Except for the gameplay.

[Joe Redifer]

Yeah if I recall you can only play one match or something weird like that and then the game ends.  It is VERY limited.

[Nando]

Yeah if I recall you can only play one match or something weird like that and then the game ends.  It is VERY limited.

Nowadays, that's called a short demo.

[GohanX]

So, can anyone help answer my earlier questions about different versions of SFII providing different AI?

I played SF2 Turbo SNES a lot when it was new, SF2 SCE Genesis when I got a Nomad a few years later, and more recently the PCE's SF2 CE. I've also dabbled a bit with the version on the Capcom Classics collection on PSP, which I assume is emulated from the arcade.

The AI within the same version of the game is identical as far as I can tell. Zangief still falls for the jumping straight up HK/Sweep trick every time, Ken nonstop shoryukens all the time, Sagat still "TIGER TIGER TIGER's" all the time. There are variances between the different editions though, M Bison and Sagat are much more difficult in the original SF2 than in most of the other games, for example.

[Chuplayer]

Capcom released a sixth game on CPS2 which is all the 5 versions in one handy dandy case.

Do you mean the CPS2 Hyper SF2? Because that one was kind of like fanservice many years later. In fact, I didn't even know until recently that there was a CPS2 version. I thought the only version that ever came out was on the PS2. (And maybe the original XBOX.)

[kazekirifx]

lol say what?!?!  the PCE could have EASILY handled hyper fighting mode(s).

What are you basing that on? To me it looks like the PCE struggles to handle the game even at normal speed. I guess we'll never know the answer, though, unless it came from the one of the original programmers' mouths, or someone gets a hacked sped-up version running on the original hardware.

Someone mentioned the X68k version. I own this one, and it's not perfect either. The frame rate is noticeably low. I think there was never a perfect conversion of this game to console or PC until the PS2 era.

[Tatsujin]

@tom, rover & co.

todo:

1x simple SFII' hack with double or triple speed.

highly appreciated, thx.

[Colossus1574]

Fools! The Sega Master System port is the only one that matters:

omg....sometimes i wonder why companies even bother with making stuff like this? even THE most desparate SF fan who ONLY owns a Master System would still not get any jollies playing this hackjob  What's most f'd about it is that it's SF:CE but yet they used the character select art from Super!? Which is where i give it it's props, the art there is pretty impressive.

Anyways, with surprisingly 6 pages already on this thread, i have to chime in since i was HUGE SF fan (my avatar might give that away, haha) back then and still am a SF player now (SF x Tekken anyone?). I don't have much to say in regards to what system was best for it...I'm just gonna say that as long as whichever version had tight enough controls for when me and my SF posse fought to not effect the matches, i'm down for any SF. I had the PCE one, my other buddy had the Genny, and another the SNES, and we'd play whichever one just depending on who's house we we're hanging out at. I was just thankful enough these home versions were close enough to arcade (in terms of combo timing, and strategies) that when we sparred/practiced at home, we'd be able to put up a fight "and then some" when we hit the arcades for the real challenges! Quarters up and all!

I'd rather talk about the historical significance of Street Fighter 2 (and all it's versions) to that period of time in video games, actually 

[Tatsujin]

omg....sometimes i wonder why companies even bother with making stuff like this? even THE most desparate SF fan who ONLY owns a Master System would still not get any jollies playing this hackjob 

That's because TecToy IS a hackjob company..lol.

[FraGMarE]

lol say what?!?!  the PCE could have EASILY handled hyper fighting mode(s).

What are you basing that on? To me it looks like the PCE struggles to handle the game even at normal speed. I guess we'll never know the answer, though, unless it came from the one of the original programmers' mouths, or someone gets a hacked sped-up version running on the original hardware.

It's based on the fact it requires ZERO or nearly zero extra CPU cycles to simply speed up a sprite animation.  For example, if you have a sprite in VRAM and the timing is such that it displays a new frame every, say, 4 game ticks/vblanks, you could just as easily set up the timing so that a new frame is displayed every 2 ticks/vblanks, or every vblank for that matter.  All the other code (collision, gamepad polling, etc.) would remain the same.  In a game like SF2, the only thing you'd need to make sure of is that your code is fast enough to load character frames from ROM > VRAM within the alotted span of game ticks between one frame to the next.  Even the largest characters in SF2 (Zangief, Sagat, M.Bison) would top out at around 3KB when uncompressed, and that's assuming they just use a square sprite block (which they don't).  So it would actually be a bit less than 3KB per character, per frame.  Then also consider that a new frame needs to be loaded into VRAM instantly anyway if you press any attack button or execute any move.  All you'd be doing is speeding up the timing between frames.  And where do you get the impression the PCE is struggling to handle SF2' CE?  There's really no slowdown to speak of and minimal flicker.  Protip: The slowdown after a KO is intentional and is there for dramatic effect.  It's also in the arcade.  ;)

[Colossus1574]

omg....sometimes i wonder why companies even bother with making stuff like this? even THE most desparate SF fan who ONLY owns a Master System would still not get any jollies playing this hackjob 

That's because TecToy IS a hackjob company..lol.

Hahaha, damn...thanks Tats 
I got fooled cause at the end credits, it says the usual "Thanks for playing, presented by Capcom and TecToy"....

[Tatsujin]

omg....sometimes i wonder why companies even bother with making stuff like this? even THE most desparate SF fan who ONLY owns a Master System would still not get any jollies playing this hackjob  

That's because TecToy IS a hackjob company..lol.

Hahaha, damn...thanks Tats  
I got fooled cause at the end credits, it says the usual "Thanks for playing, presented by Capcom and TecToy"....

TecToy is an independent working company STILL releasing/porting games for the MD & SMS in brazil. Though it's licensed work, it seems to be still very close to any other pirate & co. hack stuff when it comes to play value and gameplay.

[Tatsujin]

Protip: The slowdown after a KO is intentional and is there for dramatic effect.  It's also in the arcade.  ;)

Btw. also one of the greatest, yet most simple invention in game history ;)

[soop]

Protip: The slowdown after a KO is intentional and is there for dramatic effect.  It's also in the arcade.  ;)

Btw. also one of the greatest, yet most simple invention in game history ;)

I really like the flashing/disappearing ala Final Fight.

[SuperDeadite]

lol say what?!?!  the PCE could have EASILY handled hyper fighting mode(s).

What are you basing that on? To me it looks like the PCE struggles to handle the game even at normal speed. I guess we'll never know the answer, though, unless it came from the one of the original programmers' mouths, or someone gets a hacked sped-up version running on the original hardware.

Someone mentioned the X68k version. I own this one, and it's not perfect either. The frame rate is noticeably low. I think there was never a perfect conversion of this game to console or PC until the PS2 era.

What X68k are you playing it on though?  II' plays very nicely on a standard X68k.  Super SF II plays a bit too slow on a 10mhz machine though, but very nicely if you have 16mhz or faster.

Same with the FM Towns port.  On a 386? lol slowdown, on my 586@133mhz Fresh?  Rock solid 60fps baby.

[esteban]

So, can anyone help answer my earlier questions about different versions of SFII providing different AI?

I played SF2 Turbo SNES a lot when it was new, SF2 SCE Genesis when I got a Nomad a few years later, and more recently the PCE's SF2 CE. I've also dabbled a bit with the version on the Capcom Classics collection on PSP, which I assume is emulated from the arcade.

The AI within the same version of the game is identical as far as I can tell. Zangief still falls for the jumping straight up HK/Sweep trick every time, Ken nonstop shoryukens all the time, Sagat still "TIGER TIGER TIGER's" all the time. There are variances between the different editions though, M Bison and Sagat are much more difficult in the original SF2 than in most of the other games, for example.

Thank you, JKM (and Zeta before you) for Answering my questions. 

@tom, rover & co.

todo:

1x simple SFII' hack with double or triple speed.

highly appreciated, thx.

Hahahhahaha.  

[Nando]

[CrackTiger]

lol say what?!?!  the PCE could have EASILY handled hyper fighting mode(s).

What are you basing that on? To me it looks like the PCE struggles to handle the game even at normal speed. I guess we'll never know the answer, though, unless it came from the one of the original programmers' mouths, or someone gets a hacked sped-up version running on the original hardware.

Speed is one of the PC Engine's big strengths, especially over the Super Famicom. The PCE version of SFII' was far from what the PCE was capable of, but still could have run as fast as the other versions which were actually developed by Capcom. Even if this imperfect port was barely held together, bad ports aren't an indication of the potential of a console. They're just poor ports.

Still, I'm curious as to what signs you see that the PCE is barely handling the game. I know than in console war discussions, fanboys often point out the slowdown in rival consoles' SFII ports while ignoring the slowdown in their favorite console's port(s) and the arcade (it's programmed in as an effect).

It still sounds like you aren't very familiar with the PC Engine's library. You should try or watch decent videos of World Heroes 2 and Fatal Fury Special, which push around much larger sprites with even more animation. There's nothing comparable on Mega Drive/Mega-CD or Super Famicom... -not that it's proof that those consoles couldn't handle it though.

@tom, rover & co.

todo:

1x simple SFII' hack with double or triple speed.

highly appreciated, thx.

Might as well hack a version or two at speeds people would enjoy and then one that is as fast as the game can go without crashing, just to show people each time this argument comes up.

[RegalSin]

The question is how are the characters loaded into the vram/ram? Is it one big sprite or is it, a bunch of 16x16 or 32x32 sqaures?

I was playing Conan yesterday, and after the screen fills up with the same god forsaken blankie, ke-man, or whatever footsoilder you can see a slowdown in the game. The graphics are nice, but the ony thing I could imagine that would slow down street fighter is if two of the same characters is using their most sprite fizzled moves at the same time.
Would they move slower then another character with more area ( LxW )?

I do not think we will every find that out.

So far if I remember, the most sprites on screen would be
Two characters, and a bonus stage sprite. The next would
be a fighting stage with tons of on screen movable things,
like guiles or Balrog ( Vega's ) stage for example.