Md 68k and hu6280 comparison

[Arkhan Asylum]

To be fair, Tom's not the only one who has said that stuff, repeatedly.   lol. 

[spenoza]

To be fair, Tom's not the only one who has said that stuff, repeatedly.   lol. 

True, you said some as well, and Touko, and Old Man, but Tom presented in the manner best structured and most easily digested by my brain.

Also, I wanted to have some specific reference points, and he's posted the most info in this thread.

Sorry if you guys feel dissed. I didn't mean to discount your contributions or knowledge. I just can parse Tom's stuff better mentally.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Right, but the question is, can the person the stuff is really directed at (Evo)?

 

[TurboXray]

This is from a discussion from Steve Snake, me, Chilly Willy, Exophase. We were pretty much putting popular claims to the test.

This was a segment of example code Steve Snake wrote (note: before he made the famous Kega/Fusion emulator, he was a programmer for the MD and other platforms). It's a velocity update routine for an object (both X and Y directions):

Code Select Expand

68k:
4   lea address.w,a0    ;8/12
2   bsr                 ;18

2   move.l (a0)+,d0     ;12
2   add.l  d0,(a0)      ;20
2   move.l (a1)+,d0     ;12
2   add.l  d0,(a1)      ;20
2   rts                 ;18. 64+36=100+8=108(112)
16/7

Code Select Expand

 ;6280 object

2   ldx #$xx              ;2
3   jsr AddVelocity       ;7        

AddVelocity:    
3   lda x_float,x         ;5
1   clc                   ;2
3   adc <x_float_inc,x    ;4
3   sta x_float,x         ;5
3   lda x_whole.l,x       ;5
3   adc <x_whole_inc,x    ;4
3   sta x_whole.l,x       ;5
3   lda x_whole.h,x       ;5
2   adc #$00              ;2
3   sta x_whole.h,x       ;5 = 42
    
3   lda y_float,x         ;5
3   adc <y_float_inc,x    ;4
3   sta y_float,x         ;5
3   lda y_whole.l,x       ;5
3   adc <y_whole_inc,x    ;4
3   sta y_whole.l,x       ;5
3   lda y_whole.h,x       ;5
2   adc #$00              ;2
3   sta y_whole.h,x       ;5 = 40
    
1   rts                   ;7

62/22  
                        ; 82+14 = 96+2=98 (102)
                        
                        16.8 + 8.8 -> 16.8

 These examples were trying to be in game logic context, but the prep part is actually unrealistic. I wouldn't be loading an immediate for X; it be from a object table (maybe adding 10 cycle or so more. The 68k one would be more than 10 cycles, for the same). But I did that because his (Steve Snake) fixed address for loading into A0 was a bit unrealistic as well (using LEA abs,a0 is basically a faster way to load an immediate into an address register than using move).

 The 68k one is 108 cycle and the 6280 one is 98 cycles. While these aren't apples to apples straight comparison, relative to what needs to done/accomplished - I think they are directly comparable. The difference between the two are this: the 68k is using signed numbers (so you don't need to have four sets of routines) while the PCE version uses unsigned numbers and needs a jump table depending on one of the four directions the object is moving. The 68k one is using 32bit math; 16bit:16bit fixed point. So 16:16 + 16:16 -> 32bit. I consider this completely overkill. One, the whole number larger than 8bit mean you might not even see it move on screen (it could skip the screen entirely if aligned right); it's not needed. Two, 1/65535 of a pixel movement is overkill to me. Hell, even 1/256 is a little bit overkill. But... it's done out of reasons for convenience and speed.

 So the 6280 one has a 16:8 (24bit) fixed point position for both X and Y. The scalar/speed is 8:8 (16bit). 24bit + 16bit -> 24bit. If I did a straight 32bit conversion of his code, then it'd be slower on the 6280. So it's adapted to what is needed, since the original is overkill. You could technically do an 8:8 fixed point position for X and Y (say for a clipped horizontal shootie or a vertical shootie) and speed it up, but I wanted a more realistic conversion of his code.

 For reference, the '816 version was 80 cycles (not the SNES cpu version, since it has wait states on ram, so it's be closer to ~90 cycles) and used full 32bit variables like the 68k version (it was faster to do it that way on the '816 because of the lack of byte access opcodes).


 Edit: There's nothing fancy or clever about my code, either. Sure, it uses split tables - but that's a given for any 65x array access that's larger than one byte width. No voodoo code there.

[EvilEvoIX]

Presumably, a faster clock speed would allow the chip to do more - but that's not always true (anyone else own a 486?)
Given equal clock speeds, I think the 6502 core would outperform the 68000, based on the cycle counts Tom posted.

You think or you know?  Ask your wife again, maybe she knows.  The issue once again you brilliantly danced around is that toe to toe, head to head, the M68K handles more than the hu6280.  No need to get upset or bring your wife into this, just saying is all...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Must be one of those vile Amiga Fan Bois tarting up the 68K again....

what's your problem ???, the fact than a 8 bit processor, can compete with 68k ??
There is no troll on it, it's only the reality of code ..

We just took the case of game consoles, not in general use .

Look at this :

yes, this is on snes with his "crappy  CPU", when this CPU is programmed by a master of 65xx, there is no slowdown, a lot of sprites on screen,
lot of action, no sprites flicking ..
Technicaly, this shoot is better than any Md ones .
Can you imagine what he would do with a CPU clocked at 7mhz ??
You can see also his last game on C64, enforcer :

Only with a 6510 @0,9 mhz, yes less THAN 1 MHZ ..

I got no problem with you, some people here think the M68K was over rated and some called this an act by Amiga lovers.  I know the HU6280 can compete but as you posted earlier the 68K gets more things done doing 16bit operations, it's just what it does.

Bonknuts seems to think you start propaganda since you like the Amiga, he has a real problem with you guys.

[. The only difference between you and EvilEvoX in discussions like this, is he championing the MD instead of SNES and is much more polite.

I'm going to go ahead and take this as a compliment in a sea of insults.  Again I am not a MD fan boi but more of a M68K fan boi.  The only reason I have so much Sega stuff as it is by far the cheapest to collect for.  Games are like a dollar loose and the most I paid for an in the box is like $15.   Turbo and Neo Stuff I pay the most for by far.

Gah, this is turning from a really interesting thread into a dick measuring contest.

EvilEvoIX, please shut up, you're embarrassing yourself.  This is like a child walking into a lab where two geneticists are comparing the genetics of rabbits and hares, and declaring "I like bunnies better because they're softer".

NOT THE POINT.

Explain how when the title of this thread is " Md 68k and hu6280 comparison", and I post... "The M68K is faster and gets more done in less time". Is anything but the truth.  Truth be told you all put a MD face on this but I coulda brought up the Sega CD or Neo Geo.  The thread only asks about two specific chips and everyone assumed PCE Vs MD.  Granted I go into rants about how a LOT of PCE games (To me for the love of god to me only in my opinion your results may vary) look 8-Bitish...  That said I just dumped some serious cash in the system and play it daily so who's to complain am I right?

[TurboXray]

 I noticed that my original version used ZP for the 8:8 scaler. Speeds it up, but I'd rather use ZP for something better suited elsewhere. This version uses full addressing+indexing. To make up for the added cycle, I optimized the high byte of the whole number. Worst case scenario, it's the same cycle count as before (98 cycles). Best cast scenario, it's 88 cycles.

Code Select Expand

  ;6280 object

2   ldx #$xx              ;2
3   jsr AddVelocity       ;7        

AddVelocity:    
3   lda x_float,x         ;5
1   clc                   ;2
3   adc x_float_inc,x     ;5
3   sta x_float,x         ;5
3   lda x_whole.l,x       ;5
3   adc x_whole_inc,x     ;5
3   sta x_whole.l,x       ;5
    bcc .skip1            ;4/2
    inc x_whole.h,x       ; /7 = 36/41
.skip1    
    
3   lda y_float,x         ;5
3   adc y_float_inc,x     ;5
3   sta y_float,x         ;5
3   lda y_whole.l,x       ;5
3   adc y_whole_inc,x     ;5
3   sta y_whole.l,x       ;5
    bcc .skip2            ;4/2
    inc y_whole.h,x       ; /7 = 36/41
.skip2    
    
1   rts                   ;7

PS: I think the troll will go away if we stop feeding him.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Truth be told you all put a MD face on this but I coulda brought up the Sega CD or Neo Geo.  The thread only asks about two specific chips and everyone assumed PCE Vs MD.

It's not an assumption, cuntdrip; the topic quite clearly says MD68K and HU6280, making it specific to the MD (Mega Drive) and PCE (PC Engine) CPUs.

[soop]

PS: I think the troll will go away if we stop feeding him.

Agreed.  He doesn't seem like a bad guy, but he's dragging the whole thread down, I'm considering putting him on ignore.

Maybe another more suitable thread in the correct subforum would be more appropriate for that very old discussion

[EvilEvoIX]

Truth be told you all put a MD face on this but I coulda brought up the Sega CD or Neo Geo.  The thread only asks about two specific chips and everyone assumed PCE Vs MD.

It's not an assumption, cuntdrip; the topic quite clearly says MD68K and HU6280, making it specific to the MD (Mega Drive) and PCE (PC Engine) CPUs.

Cunt Drip, I like that, really shows how angry you are.  People pick and choose whatever they want in this thread but I tired to keep things off the personal level.  You on the other hand took it personal, why?  Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles?  You can call me a cunt drip again but I think people are tired of watching people bash me and avoid the truth.

[TurboXray]

Truth be told you all put a MD face on this but I coulda brought up the Sega CD or Neo Geo.  The thread only asks about two specific chips and everyone assumed PCE Vs MD.

It's not an assumption, cuntdrip; the topic quite clearly says MD68K and HU6280, making it specific to the MD (Mega Drive) and PCE (PC Engine) CPUs.

Cunt Drip, I like that, really shows how angry you are.  People pick and choose whatever they want in this thread but I tired to keep things off the personal level.  You on the other hand took it personal, why?  Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles?  You can call me a cunt drip again but I think people are tired of watching people bash me and avoid the truth.

I think the whole problem would be solved, if you just left this thread alone. You're not programmer, you have nothing to contribute here, and yes - you have personally insulted people (I pretty sure that quip about old man and his wife was considered a direct insult). You're a gamer, fine. Go the gaming parts of this forum and talking about gaming. Leave this thread alone. You ARE trolling here. Do you not see this? You said your piece and your opinion (even though it have nothing to do with the discussion, nor did it contribute to it in any way possible. Quite the opposite. You are just bringing down this thread), fine. You have nothing left to say or contribute. Leave.

[EvilEvoIX]

Truth be told you all put a MD face on this but I coulda brought up the Sega CD or Neo Geo.  The thread only asks about two specific chips and everyone assumed PCE Vs MD.

It's not an assumption, cuntdrip; the topic quite clearly says MD68K and HU6280, making it specific to the MD (Mega Drive) and PCE (PC Engine) CPUs.

Cunt Drip, I like that, really shows how angry you are.  People pick and choose whatever they want in this thread but I tired to keep things off the personal level.  You on the other hand took it personal, why?  Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles?  You can call me a cunt drip again but I think people are tired of watching people bash me and avoid the truth.

I think the whole problem would be solved, if you just left this thread alone. You're not programmer, you have nothing to contribute here, and yes - you have personally insulted people (I pretty sure that quip about old man and his wife was considered a direct insult). You're a gamer, fine. Go the gaming parts of this forum and talking about gaming. Leave this thread alone. You ARE trolling here. Do you not see this? You said your piece and your opinion (even though it have nothing to do with the discussion, nor did it contribute to it in any way possible. Quite the opposite. You are just bringing down this thread), fine. You have nothing left to say or contribute. Leave.

Sorry to hear your feelings are hurt, I guess just F those Amiga guys then huh.  I am sorry you are a hater and hate Amiga users and just bias over the 68K Propogandy started by Joseph Goebbels himself.  I'm sorry you are butt hurt and took things personally.  I am sorry that you haven't admitted that the MD68K is faster than the HU6280 or as you put it "almost as fast."

Keep trying...

[spenoza]

Can we not use the word "cunt" when insulting each other, here? It is one of those highly charged words which the insulter may think is merely just another word, but which for many has some very negative connotations. Call him a pig fucker or something, that's fine, but I would be very happy if "cunt" dropped out of the insult vernacular. It's almost up there with "nigger" in being offensive to many readers/listeners, and not just the insultee.

Please?

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Cunt Drip, I like that, really shows how angry you are.  People pick and choose whatever they want in this thread but I tired to keep things off the personal level.  You on the other hand took it personal, why?  Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles?  

I'm not angry - I just enjoy being vulgar for teh lulz.

You can call me a cunt drip again but I think people are tired of watching people bash me and avoid the truth.

You're the one avoiding the truth.  Go back and re-read all the posts where specific examples were given to show operations that take more cycles (slower) on the MD; the coding guys have given you ample proof and explanation of how/why the two cpus are similarly speedy.

But we both know you won't bother and will continue to ignore every intelligent argument and example given.  Keep your head in the sand!


And with that I'll take Tom's advice and ignore this troll.  He's clearly not interested in actually learning anything.

But I am!  From past discussions, didn't y'all say that 68k code ends up being bigger?  It's not such a big deal nowadays, but it was back in the day when they had to pay for more ROM to get the same job done (eating into profits).

[OldRover]

Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles?

It's not, fanboi dumbass. Are you even paying attention, or are you just rubbing your nuts with your Megadrive controller?

[TurboXray]

But I am!  From past discussions, didn't y'all say that 68k code ends up being bigger?  It's not such a big deal nowadays, but it was back in the day when they had to pay for more ROM to get the same job done (eating into profits).

Ya know, that was the original assumption. Because the 68k instructions are fairly long byte wise, but in the discussion with Steve Snake and the others - turns out that the code generation is generally smaller. Sometime by half, but sometimes as much as 3/4 the size (this in bytes, not instructions). But code takes up the least amount of space in a game. Actually, very little compared to data, maps, tiles, sprites, tables, music, etc - all combined. For hucards, from what I looked at, code size is usually around 64k (Bonk 1 is 384k). Some are less but usually not much larger than 64k. Of course, if you think about the CDrom 2.0 - it only had 64k of 'cart' space. Code was smaller and while I haven't looked at CD 2.0 games, I'd be willing to bet it's closer to 32k for code. The rest of 32k for tilemap and such data. And most of the tiles and sprites are preloaded in vram already (some games used ADPCM ram to store additional stuff like text scripts or even graphics. The first Spriggan game used it for graphics).

And with that I'll take Tom's advice and ignore this troll.  He's clearly not interested in actually learning anything.

I just now put him on ignore. At least for now. I'm sure there's a gamer inside there, somewhere, if he'd just stop acting like an ass.

Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles?

It's not, fanboi dumbass. Are you even paying attention, or are you just rubbing your nuts with your Megadrive controller?

LOL!

[PCEngineHell]

Evil, just get out of this fucking thread already. You have no business in it until you at least have half an idea what you are talking about. Your on a direct path towards ostracizing yourself from this forum by nothing other then being totally ignorant, highly annoying, and thread crapping what was otherwise a great thread. Your approach to the subject is poorly put together and just keeps reading off as "The 68000 is better cause I know it is". Half of your argument and examples are terrible and most of the time are ones that actually rely on the Yamaha YM7101 and not just solely the M68000, like you have the inability to separate the two and the functions they actually handle and how they work together. Most effects you see done on the Genesis/Mega Drive have to do with the VDP in general as it is what is displaying them, not the cpu, though the cpu does assist in pacing/guiding the VDP to its glory. Its not that hard to understand, yet you seem totally incapable of distinguish between the two and totally unable to recognize or admit to a lot of the flaws of the Genesis (like your continuing to ignore the whole arcade ports being better on the PCE thing or how the Genesis suffered massive amounts of slowdown and flicker at times, or the terrible sound quality on many games).

This applies to basically all the classic game systems, and why they varied so much visually and audio wise concerning weakness and strength, especially concerning arcade game boards, and why you would see so much hardware having so many different abilities. Being a hardware enthusiast that I am, and seeing the Hu6280 used in such a wide degree of arcade boards, let alone in Nec's hardware, and to the same degree the 68000, I have seen them used enough, based on a wide spectrum of hands on experience with the games that actually used both to know both of them are fairly capable cpus both with strengths and weaknesses, and also that the one used in the Genesis is on the lower end of the line of Motorola 68000 processors clocked a lot lower then it should have been (lots of slow down on Genesis games anyone?). I also don't base my experience on emulators which can mask flaws that are very apparent when running on actual hardware, or a few instances of razzle dazzle that don't actually enhance gameplay.

I really wish you understood all of this, but you seem to really struggle with all of these facts as they are and it sounds like you did this to yourself on the Sega forum also. You seem to associate the power of the Genesis solely to the M68000, ignoring the fact that most of its visual power comes from its rather interesting but highly flawed YM7101, and you totally ignore things like the fact that most all the arcade ports were better on PCE. Basically it amounts to you giving far too much credit to the cpu instead of looking at the over all hardware capabilities. Your logic and choice to ignore facts, evidence, and examples from opposing parties make it impossible to see where you are coming from or to even empathize with you and your stance, and it just makes you come off as annoying and trolling. You're basically now that guy with his fingers in his ears saying "la la la".



Once you become that kind of guy it is almost impossible to save face amongst fellow forum members. People are always going to think of you as the obnoxious local fool who wont go away.


edit: saw the dismay at the use of "cunt". I always rather enjoy seeing the word being used. 

[VestCunt]

Evil: flaming can be fun, but insulting the guys who make games for the TurboGrafx is fucking stupid.
1) you don't know what you're talking about.
2) they're way smarter than you.
3) you're going to want to buy something from them sooner or later.

As for Professorson, he doesn't make games, but he's technically astute and he'll tear you apart like a pitbull.

[PCEngineHell]

Evil: flaming can be fun, but insulting the guys who make games for the TurboGrafx is fucking stupid.
1) you don't know what you're talking about.
2) they're way smarter than you.
3) you're going to want to buy something from them sooner or later.

As for Professorson, he doesn't make games, but he's technically astute and he'll tear you apart like a pitbull.

Even when I'm on a off day and tired lol. I prob coulda typed up something better but meh... But yeah, don't even take my word for it, the fact that EvilEvoIX is ignoring actual programers etc whole speaks volumes of stupid.

[EvilEvoIX]

Hi all, i have this in mind for a while ..

How 6280 can compete with Md 68k in performance ???
Of course in case of video game consoles, not in general use(like a computer) .

It seems that in bloc transfert ,the 68k is more capable (with more code of course) ..

You are correct for the most part.  The MD68K was and is extremely capable to program for.  It's a true 16bit CPU and could handle a greater work load when going toe to toe with the PCE.  Is it an absolute smashing victory, no they were close but be careful if you share the knowledge of the MD68k superiority.  They'll come with fire and pitch forks for you and god forbid you make a valid point because you'll be buried with excuses.  Some programmers say the PCE CPU is superior while others argue in favor of the MD68k.  For the most part they are biased and blame Amiga users for spreading 68K propaganda.  A lot of thoretical debates are going on therorizing what is possible snd what is not.  these old systems really pushed the envrlope and had some expert blabing about their condoles siperiority.  He'll the SNES dprite limit is higher than the MD but we all know that it would just slow to a crawl.  Just be careful and just play the games and enjoy them.  Just keep the truth to yourself otherwise the pile on begins.  You'd be surprised how different this argument goes on the SNES or the SEGA forums.


[/thread]

[OldRover]

...are you done spewing stupid?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Cunt Drip, I like that, really shows how angry you are.  People pick and choose whatever they want in this thread but I tired to keep things off the personal level.  You on the other hand took it personal, why?  Why so angry the hu6280 is slower than the MD68K or any contemporary release in several following consoles?  You can call me a cunt drip again but I think people are tired of watching people bash me and avoid the truth.

Tried to not be personal?  You've insulted everyone at least once, basically.  Heck you even said the Shadow of the Beast chiptune sounded like a joke.  That's just braindead shenanigans.  Go listen to the Genesis SOTB soundtrack.   It sounds lame.

You are correct for the most part.  The MD68K was and is extremely capable to program for.  It's a true 16bit CPU and could handle a greater work load when going toe to toe with the PCE. 

Now you're just parroting us.  What validation can you provide to claims that something is extremely capable to program for.  Also "extremely capable to program for" makes no sense really. 

Also, the 68K is also 32-bit.

no they were close but be careful if you share the knowledge of the MD68k superiority.  They'll come with fire and pitch forks for you and god forbid you make a valid point because you'll be buried with excuses. 

You made a valid point?  When?   Also, for some cases, we agreed the 68K has better capabilities.  1-800-ABC-DEFG, dude.   They can help.

Some programmers say the PCE CPU is superior while others argue in favor of the MD68k.  For the most part they are biased and blame Amiga users for spreading 68K propaganda.

68K in an Amiga is a completely different story, not suited to this topic.  Also, the Amiga benefitted from accelerators.  A 86060 is pretty tits.  No propaganda required.

There is no bias.

You'd be surprised how different this argument goes on the SNES or the SEGA forums.

It went similarly on the NES forums awhile back.

It goes similarly on the C64 and Amiga forums when it comes up.

When people discuss the 68k vs. Apple IIs (most notably the IIc+ and GS), it goes similarly as well.

[Tatsujin]

[touko]

Sorry to hear your feelings are hurt, I guess just F those Amiga guys then huh.  I am sorry you are a hater and hate Amiga users and just bias over the 68K Propogandy started by Joseph Goebbels himself.  I'm sorry you are butt hurt and took things personally.  I am sorry that you haven't admitted that the MD68K is faster than the HU6280 or as you put it "almost as fast."

Keep trying...

just stop guy, and look :

This was done only with a 65816 @3.5/2.5 mhz cpu .
Do you think that a 6280 @7.16 mhz can not do more ..

[Tatsujin]

R2 stage 7 is so rad.

[EvilEvoIX]

My Lord!!!!! such anger (fanaticism?)  I mean....  Once you start hearing "Cunt Drip" and I believe someone dropped the N-Bomb, on PCE Forums people the N-BOMB!!!  Some of you have lost it.  Some of you are real full of your selves, barking that you are "programmers" and what you say goes.  Reminds me of that fat chick on the view that prefaced everything with "I'm a lawyer".  Listen guys, I can go to the MD sites and the Neo Sites and there are programmers just as bright eyed and furious as you are that shit over the HU6280 and support the MD68K with ans much vigor and propaganda as some of you.  I'm not going to do that and for the record have never shit on the PCE.  I don't think it's possible with the amount of cash I just dumped into my PCE collection so moving on.  What I am going to attempt to do, and I ask for the fan bois to pull off their rose colored glasses, is compare the MD68K to the HU6280.

So I am not going to make gifs or pictures that DISTRACT from the truth, no one has thwarted my attempt in stating that the MD68K is indeed faster than the HU6280.  The MD68K was  better CPU of the two , a 32/16bit (hybrid) 68000 CPU running at 7.67mhz.  I guess if you are doing "8-Bit" things the HU6280 does things better and the evidence in the West at least shows a lot of "8-Bit" looking games running at AMAZING speeds.

Patented Fan Boi Argument 1

   It's not fair to compare Western releases to the PCE releases in Japan, one look at Sapphire and you'd see it's on par if not exceeds the MD68K in all its glory.

   While this is true to an extent Sapphire is a great game let's take a close look at it.


First of all in order to play this thing you needed the following while in Japan:

A PC Engine
A CD Rom attachment that then came with the Bios Revision #1
You later purchased Bios revision 2 for CD+G
You later purchased System Card 3.0 to add support for Super CD games
You finally had to purchase an Arcade card to play Sapphire.
You had to purchase Sapphire.

In the states you needed to have the arcade card and a converter and a CD ROM then order the game.  God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.

Now let's look at the game and how it plays.

Music?  Kicks ass, amazing cd pumping sound and great tunes.  Sound FX, takes a big step down.  We all know the Mega Drive itself had superior sound hardware so I'm not going to bash what I already know is true.  I don't think anyone really argues that the PCE sound chip didn't provide the best sound FX and or music but once again could argue the artistic merit of the bleeps and bloops and enjoy that so to each it's own and I personally enjoy all the music of Bonk and Bloody Wolf for some reason.  Legenday Ax II is epic.  But it's not pumping out what the MD and the SNES did in comparison, so let's move on. 

Grafx.  First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.  You also notice that even some of the animation is done by pallet swapping, again a favor in the wealth of colors the HU6280 can display.  Obvious lack of parallax but that is to be expected as the PCE chose color over multi-scrolling backgrounds.  Lots of sprites moving around on screen and little slow down.  What is expected and is displayed time and time again on the PCE in the terms of a shooter that would make the SNES melt.

   There is nothing going on that the MD68K can't handle in except color.  The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that.  It's just what the hardware did.  You could argue that it is an advantage for a 2D sprite based machine.  You would then add in additional scrolling backgrounds, larger sprites and as stated more of them the game could have done more.  These are practical advantages and not dubious such as the SNES having an even higher sprite limit yet would melt before reaching it.  That's why you never saw a game as capable with as large of bosses and the speed they had in games such as Alien Soldier or Gunstar Heroes without cuts in multi scrolling backgrounds. 

I hate to bring out this game but everyone points to it.  What is happening that can't happen on the MD68K?  Right out of the gate the sound FX would be better, you could through more sprites at it or move the bosses or sub bosses faster.  You'd lose the CD music but that is to be expected.

Sapphire came out in 1995 two, way late in the systems life.  Look at the 1995 releases on the MD.  I keep pointing to Vectorman which also came out in 1995 and wouldn't be represented well on the PCE.  The amount of sprites and animation and very little slow down and giant fast bosses, the MD68K was simply and I mean simply more capable.

What does this mean?  Does it mean the games are better or worse?  It means whatever you want it to mean.  Hardware superiority again means nothing without software to back it up.  The PCE had kick ass software.  So did the MD.  So what if the MD had a faster processor, I put Mega Man 2-3 up against 90% of games on either the MD or PCE in music alone.

So put away your pitch forks and pull back your angry racial epithets and understand what II just posted is not propaganda, isn't made up, it simply states what is truth.

Thank you

[esteban]

STATUS: Comrades, you have been trying to use logic and evidence to identify the convoluted elements of EvvyEvIV's argument.

I have a simpler solution that speaks to EvvyEvIV at his level...here is the Truth (RC Pro Am on NES is better than 99% of MD/PCE/SFC/NEOGEO games). Also,
 

BOTTOM LINE: 

[OldRover]

Why is this EvilEvoIX guy so blatantly stupid? Who unlocked his cage? I thought they kept the asylum patients locked up.

[Opethian]

go back to sega16 where you belong...please...

[PunkCryborg]

Hey guys we need to step down EvilEvoIX's dad was a programmer after all so he obviously knows more than all of us combined

[EvilEvoIX]

Genesis does brown.  It's color choices sucked.  Who's arguing that?

[EvilEvoIX]

Hey guys we need to step down EvilEvoIX's dad was a programmer after all so he obviously knows more than all of us combined

He probably does.  Very smart engineer and is versed in many programming languages.  He thought all my consoles were shit however.

[OldRover]

no one has thwarted my attempt in stating that the MD68K is indeed faster than the HU6280.  The MD68K was  better CPU of the two , a 32/16bit (hybrid) 68000 CPU running at 7.67mhz.

I do believe it's been stated MULTIPLE times that the MD68K is NOT faster OR better than the Hu6280. It is simply different. It is better for some things, and worse for others... faster for some things, slower for others. Of course, this reality won't ever penetrate that concrete shell you call a skull.

We all know the Mega Drive itself had superior sound hardware so I'm not going to bash what I already know is true.

A low-grade Yamaha FM chip is "superior sound hardware"? Dream on, fanboy. Again, it's simply different. It is in no way superior. It also has nothing to do with the CPU.

The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that.  It's just what the hardware did.

This is a complete lie. You clearly know absolutely nothing about the sprite capabilities of the two machines. Furthermore, this also has nothing to do with the CPU.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Some of you are real full of your selves, barking that you are "programmers" and what you say goes. 

www.aetherbyte.com  <<< Note the games released on multiple platforms.   

What I am going to attempt to do, and I ask for the fan bois to pull off their rose colored glasses, is compare the MD68K to the HU6280.

That's what we've been doing this entire time.  You just don't understand what we're talking about.

So I am not going to make gifs or pictures that DISTRACT from the truth, no one has thwarted my attempt in stating that the MD68K is indeed faster than the HU6280.  The MD68K was  better CPU of the two , a 32/16bit (hybrid) 68000 CPU running at 7.67mhz.  I guess if you are doing "8-Bit" things the HU6280 does things better and the evidence in the West at least shows a lot of "8-Bit" looking games running at AMAZING speeds.

Just recently, before I corrected you, you were saying it was 16-bit.  Now you say it's a hybrid.  That's cute.

You don't seem to understand what is meant by 8 vs 16 bit operations.   It has nothing to do with anything you see visually. 

Someone else pointed this out, elsewhere:
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9338   This game uses a 68000.  Games like Contra use 8-bit CPUs.   Note how shitty Road Runner looks in comparison.

It's not fair to compare Western releases to the PCE releases in Japan, one look at Sapphire and you'd see it's on par if not exceeds the MD68K in all its glory.

Comparing only a subset of a library is stupid.  It'd be like only looking at US released Sega CD games.  Yknow, all those really shitty FMV games that everyone laughs at like Double Switch and Ground Zero Texas or whatever.

Take those away and you're left with like 10 good US games:

Silpheed
Lunar 1 and 2
Vay
Shining Force CD
Popful Mail
Rise of the Dragon
Ecco
Flashback
Sol Feace
Android Assault

and some of those have cartridge counterparts that are basically the same thing.

That's why it's best to compare the library of games from the country of origin so you get the full effect, instead of whatever was localized, and whatever was probably done poorly.

[OldRover]

According to EvilEvoIX's "math", the HU6280 is a 21/8 bit hybrid.

[Arkhan Asylum]

According to EvilEvoIX's "math", the HU6280 is a 21/8 bit hybrid.

1.21 JIGGABITS.

[EvilEvoIX]

no one has thwarted my attempt in stating that the MD68K is indeed faster than the HU6280.  The MD68K was  better CPU of the two , a 32/16bit (hybrid) 68000 CPU running at 7.67mhz.

I do believe it's been stated MULTIPLE times that the MD68K is NOT faster OR better than the Hu6280. It is simply different. It is better for some things, and worse for others... faster for some things, slower for others. Of course, this reality won't ever penetrate that concrete shell you call a skull.

We all know the Mega Drive itself had superior sound hardware so I'm not going to bash what I already know is true.

A low-grade Yamaha FM chip is "superior sound hardware"? Dream on, fanboy. Again, it's simply different. It is in no way superior. It also has nothing to do with the CPU.

The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that.  It's just what the hardware did.

This is a complete lie. You clearly know absolutely nothing about the sprite capabilities of the two machines. Furthermore, this also has nothing to do with the CPU.

The MD68k moves more sprites and larger sprites faster.  So yeah it is indeed different.  Bashing the MD's sound capabilities is a tough one in comparison to the PCE.  Obvious people may prefer the one or the other stylistically but listening to say streets of rage or vectorman the music is just much clearer and real instruments distinguishable.  So there is no need to get upset just listen to the chip tunes, if you think there is something that rivals the MD lemy hear it.  Org wise I just chill with the cd music.  The sound fx are kinda poor for the late 80's early to mid 90's.  I mean you have to hear it.

[EvilEvoIX]

Some of you are real full of your selves, barking that you are "programmers" and what you say goes.

What I am going to attempt to do, and I ask for the fan bois to pull off their rose colored glasses, is compare the MD68K to the HU6280.

That's what we've been doing this entire time.  You just don't understand what we're talking about.

So I am not going to make gifs or pictures that DISTRACT from the truth, no one has thwarted my attempt in stating that the MD68K is indeed faster than the HU6280.  The MD68K was  better CPU of the two , a 32/16bit (hybrid) 68000 CPU running at 7.67mhz.  I guess if you are doing "8-Bit" things the HU6280 does things better and the evidence in the West at least shows a lot of "8-Bit" looking games running at AMAZING speeds.

Just recently, before I corrected you, you were saying it was 16-bit.  Now you say it's a hybrid.  That's cute.

You don't seem to understand what is meant by 8 vs 16 bit operations.   It has nothing to do with anything you see visually. 

Someone else pointed this out, elsewhere:
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9338   This game uses a 68000.  Games like Contra use 8-bit CPUs.   Note how shitty Road Runner looks in comparison.

It's not fair to compare Western releases to the PCE releases in Japan, one look at Sapphire and you'd see it's on par if not exceeds the MD68K in all its glory.

Comparing only a subset of a library is stupid.  It'd be like only looking at US released Sega CD games.  Yknow, all those really shitty FMV games that everyone laughs at like Double Switch and Ground Zero Texas or whatever.

Take those away and you're left with like 10 good US games:

Silpheed
Lunar 1 and 2
Vay
Shining Force CD
Popful Mail
Rise of the Dragon
Ecco
Flashback
Sol Feace
Android Assault

and some of those have cartridge counterparts that are basically the same thing.

That's why it's best to compare the library of games from the country of origin so you get the full effect, instead of whatever was localized, and whatever was probably done poorly.

Why are talking about sega cd?  It has a faster processor than the MD68k and then additional scaling and rotation.  What's cute is how personally people are taking this.  I know the MD68k can handle multiple addresses such as 16 bit and 32bit.  The PCE does 8-bit things better.  not doing Alien Soldier, sorry.  Its all over the net and in publications you had no monopoly on duch information do quit acting like you just pulled the curtain back.  I also know it does so better than the PCE.  More sprites, more detail, faster.  It's there in black and white and with all the bitching I am getting everyone seems to dance around that statement.   

Yes yes yes the Sega CD had a lot if dog turds and already stated that the PCE CD has better game.  I have a bunch of them and am hammering away at them as we speak.  FMV shit but I still enjoy Sewer Shark and even limp through monkey island for the music.  Now back to Red Alert.....

[OldRover]

The MD68k moves more sprites and larger sprites faster.

No it DOESN'T you bleedin' idiot. The MD hardware's maximum sprite size is 32x32. The PCE's maximum sprite size is 32x64. MD can do 80 units (so technically more sprite blocks), PCE can do 64 units (at 32x64, this actually equates to 128 MD sprites, so technically more sprite pixels).

[VenomMacbeth]

Dude...just...stahp.  Please.  Make a thread for your grossly overzealous Sega-wank bullshit if you absolutely must, but I guarantee you nobody here wants to hear it, especially since half the shit you're spouting isn't even true. 

I love the Genesis, perhaps even more than the PCE, but you are telling lies.

[EvilEvoIX]

The MD68k moves more sprites and larger sprites faster.

No it DOESN'T you bleedin' idiot. The MD hardware's maximum sprite size is 32x32. The PCE's maximum sprite size is 32x64. MD can do 80 units (so technically more sprite blocks), PCE can do 64 units (at 32x64, this actually equates to 128 MD sprites, so technically more sprite pixels).

See this is what I'm talking about, semantics.  You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot.  Ummmm, so in the late 80's early 90's one could argue that most game consoles were 2d sprite based machines and I argued that since the MD68k could handle more sprites in screen at once in addition to multi scrolling backgrounds one could indeed conclude a distinct advantage however I wouldn't call it a complete advantage.  The MD was also more versatile in displaying sprites with any combination of 8-16-24-32 tall or wide.

[PCEngineHell]

Why does this guy keep confusing the VDP with the CPU? He starts bringing up sprite display capabilities, I mean, thats in the realm of the VDP, not the CPU to decide. Is his argument for the cpu anymore, or the VDP, or the entire thing? Does he even know? And why does he keep bringing up Cosmic Carnage Action Game Birdman Edition as an example of the 68000s power? The VDP is behind that mainly, not the 68000(note, the game also suffers from slowdown issues,etc even after having a massive sized basic black status bar).

The MD68k moves more sprites and larger sprites faster.

No it DOESN'T you bleedin' idiot. The MD hardware's maximum sprite size is 32x32. The PCE's maximum sprite size is 32x64. MD can do 80 units (so technically more sprite blocks), PCE can do 64 units (at 32x64, this actually equates to 128 MD sprites, so technically more sprite pixels).

See this is what I'm talking about, semantics.  You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot.  Ummmm, so in the late 80's early 90's one could argue that most game consoles were 2d sprite based machines and I argued that since the MD68k could handle more sprites in screen at once in addition to multi scrolling backgrounds one could indeed conclude a distinct advantage however I wouldn't call it a complete advantage.

You totally confused what he said there.  It is just a shining example of how little you actually know.

[CrackTiger]

My Lord!!!!! such anger (fanaticism?)  I mean....  Once you start hearing "Cunt Drip" and I believe someone dropped the N-Bomb, on PCE Forums people the N-BOMB!!!  Some of you have lost it.

Quotes from EvilEvoX in this same thread-

Reminds me of that fat chick on the view that prefaced everything with "I'm a lawyer". 

Patented Fan Boi Argument 1

What I am going to attempt to do, and I ask for the fan bois to pull off their rose colored glasses, is compare the MD68K to the HU6280.

Butt-hurt?  Sorry you feel that way :/

Are we to judge the TG-16 based upon Bravo-Man or the pile of shit we westerners were given?  Everyone is quick to make excuses for that plague of shit and everyone looks passed that.  So I say we get to look passed piles of shit on the MD as well and there are bad PORTS but you mean to tell me a game like UMK3 would run as well, with as much animation and speed, and proper sound FX; dreaming.

Look at Sonic 2, the amount of shit going on in that game, the quality of sound FX and Music and then the speed, no fucking way.

Look at fucking Altered Beast?  Why is that shittyness ignored?  Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE.  Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness.

Oh and SHit Dick, I have all the games, and now all the systems and last I checked a CD Burner.  I've played the games, they are fun, stop it.  You guys get butt-hurt so easily and AGAIN I point out that hardware=shit when the software = shit.

Just because I didn't sit there with my dick in my hand and a computer keyboard in the other doesn't mean I don't know what these systems can do.

What the fuck was I thinking?

Fon Boi facts aside it is a better processor.

I'm sorry you are butt hurt and took things personally.

Listen guys, I can go to the MD sites and the Neo Sites and there are programmers just as bright eyed and furious as you are that shit over the HU6280 and support the MD68K with ans much vigor and propaganda as some of you.

Trouble is everyone I know or ever knew seems to agree with me, in fact this is the only site that seems to have trouble understanding what is obvious to anyone with a pair of ears and eyes.

On Sega-16, a Genesis/Mega Drive centric site, the programmers there said pretty much the same things that the programmers here are saying. You were ridiculed by everyone (not just programmers) much more on that site than here.

The amount of excuses being made and the amount of facts just obliterated are beyond even what I get on www.neo-geo.com and that is saying something.

So this is yet another forum where people actually don't agree with you?

I'm not going to do that and for the record have never shit on the PCE.

Except these examples in this same thread-

Music?  Not gona happen with those scratchy bleeps and bloops unless you go CD.

Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness.

Look at fucking Altered Beast?  Why is that shittyness ignored?  Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE.  Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness.  What excuse is there?  Why couldn't the game look as good as the MD?  Look how choppy and darty the animation is?  The music sounds like it's coming from a Halmark Music Card.  And now you tell me Earthworm Jim can come from this?

Here is a great example of true "fan boi" "rose colored glasses" and just inability to judge graphics in general. That CD intro? It's terrible and features zero "Animation". That "8-bit shittyness" looks much better than the Mega Drive version, with more detail, shading and better color. As for "choppy and darty the animation", again it is the exact opposite in reality and yet another way the PCE version is noticeably better. I'm guessing that you've never heard the sound running off of real hardware, but you've already established that you hate all PCE sound by default of being from the PCE, no matter how similar any particular game may sound to the Mega Drive version.


8-BIT SHITTYNESS <---------------------> NOT choppy and darty the animation













I think that this sums up best which version truly looks the closest to "8-bit"-

I have all three of them since day one, act one, scene one.  I have all the games now as well and years of experience.

You refused to comment on so many games during Sega-16 discussions, so I'll ask you again, if you've played all the games, even if only roms and isos, what did you think of Anearth Fantasy Stories, Gulliver Boy, Legend of Xanadu I & II, Ys IV and Cosmic Fantasy IV Chapters 1 & 2?

You really can't compare the Sega CD to the Turbo CD as the Sega CD is so much more powerful as upgrades are SUPPOSED TO BE.

The Sega-CD is a hardware upgrade. It replaces the Genesis "MD68K" cpu with a more powerful one and adds new graphics capabilities (among other things). The PCE CD-ROM only allows the same old PCE cpu to run games the exact same way, while also controlling a CD drive, streaming CD music and using adpcm samples through an extra channel (many games don't use any of those additions much of the time). Although you are correct that it shouldn't be fair to compare the powerful Sega-CD hardware to a PCE CD-ROM setup... the PCE CD still has more impressive 2D games than the Sega-CD. All powered exclusively by the hu6820.

I feel the Turbo used it's CD technology better than the Sega CD.  Mostly because of the FMV shovel ware.

So once again, even though you own all of the isos and have played all of the games, you are still completely clueless about another game library. FMV games are a tiny minority of the Sega/Mega-CD library and the hardware was pushed to amazing levels, as was the CD format.

I had the privilege of growing up with a programmer/engineer.

Did this person give you the impression that all programmers sit at a keyboard with their dick in their hand?

While this is true to an extent Sapphire is a great game let's take a close look at it.


First of all in order to play this thing you needed the following while in Japan:

A PC Engine
A CD Rom attachment that then came with the Bios Revision #1
You later purchased Bios revision 2 for CD+G
You later purchased System Card 3.0 to add support for Super CD games
You finally had to purchase an Arcade card to play Sapphire.
You had to purchase Sapphire.

In the states you needed to have the arcade card and a converter and a CD ROM then order the game.  God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.

If the MD68K is so powerful, then why is it that in order to play a cart game, you needed the following in Japan:

A Mega Drive
A Mark III Sega Mega Adaptor
A Mega Modem
A Mega-CD
A Super 32X
An Action Replay
A Mega Key
A copy of Sonic & Knuckles
A cleaning kit cart
A copy of the game





God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.

Now let's look at the game and how it plays.

That's a single player playthrough on EASY difficulty genius. Play through the game with 2 players at once on the hardest difficulty to judge what the game and hardware really do.

I don't think anyone really argues that the PCE sound chip didn't provide the best sound FX

You are demonstrating once again that you ignore the internet in general, as well as the forum discussion you "participate" in. Many people dislike PCE sound, although they tend to be people who have heard much of it. Still, many more people appreciate it, even on Sega-16. More people in the world think that the Genesis/Mega Drive has terrible sound than do not. They may be biased Nintendo fans, but you are the one using popular opinion as a measure of proof.

First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.

The MD68K is a cpu and not a VDP, so your statement is true. But what you really mean, as you've been saying all along, is that the Mega Drive couldn't do any of it. But you're wrong, the Mega Drive could do much of the color/detail/shading, including some entire scenes as-is. It just can't do all of it.

Obvious lack of parallax but that is to be expected as the PCE chose color over multi-scrolling backgrounds.

It is to be expected that a vertical shooter will not necessarily feature much parallax, as they tend to not feature nearly as much as in horizontal shooters, regardless of the hardware being used. Still, Sapphire does have multi-scrolling backgrounds and I can't think of any part of the game where it looks like an extra layer of scrolling should have appeared.

There is nothing going on that the MD68K can't handle in except color.  The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that.  It's just what the hardware did.

There is more in-game (non-fmv) animation happening than any Mega Drive/Genesis ever did. I don't believe that the MD couldn't do something similar in terms of animation, but you have argued all along that because it didn't happen, the MD can't do it and therefore the PCE is far superior at animation in general.

I don't think you understand the definition of detail, but again, Sapphire tosses around as many sprites across the screen as any MD game ever has. But again, "larger" sprites is a strength of PCE games. MD and SNES games usually use a tile layer for large enemies, while the PCE usually uses massive sprites, comparable to the arcade games that Game Fan went on and on about (Juggernaut, Lucifeller, etc). If you stop lying and actually start playing all of those roms and isos, you'll soon notice than large sprites are a trademark of PCE games more so than MD or SNES games. If you look at the MD and PCE games with the most sprites on screen at a time, they look more or less the same. It's only the SNES that lacks games with that level of screen-filling sprites.

That's why you never saw a game as capable with as large of bosses and the speed they had in games such as Alien Soldier or Gunstar Heroes without cuts in multi scrolling backgrounds.

You've brought up Alien Soldier again as proof of the MD68K superiority. But if you've witnessed the game on real hardware, you'd notice the regular slowdown. That's why it's a favorite demonstration of Genesis overclockers, who attempt to bump up that superior MD68K cpu to try to minimize the slowdown. There are many MD and PCE games with a comparable amount of action happening, where you'll see more slowdown in MD games.

Alien Soldier is another Treasure game with a bunch of neat effects, but they're usually a showcase for the overall MD hardware, not the cpu. They're designed around the system's weaknesses as much as its strengths. Just like top quality PCE and SNES games. A top quality game designed around one hardware won't turn out as good if an exact port is attempted. But working around the target hardware's strengths and weaknesses will result in something also great, only somewhat different.

The MD can't do Sapphire as-is, but it could do a cool version of it. Same goes with any 2D MD game ported to PCE.

I hate to bring out this game but everyone points to it.  What is happening that can't happen on the MD68K?  Right out of the gate the sound FX would be better, you could through more sprites at it or move the bosses or sub bosses faster.

Again, I'll assume that by "MD68K" you really mean "Mega Drive". Maybe you should start playing more of your Mega Drive roms and pay attention to intense games and see how well the MD handles stuff like (or the closest it has to) Sapphire. Pause the game during the slowdown in stage one of Ranger X and look at how much is onscreen at the time. Compare that to the busiest parts of Sapphire in 2 player mode on the hardest difficulty.

The MD and PCE can do a comparable amount of action that sets them apart from the SNES. The MD can do more with background layering and some unique special effects and the PCE can do more in terms of actual graphic quality (shading/detail/color). Most experts seem to agree that the PCE hardware is better at animation, but they're still comparable. There is no "smashing victory" in terms of processing power when it comes to regular 16-bit games (2D stuff). The MD is probably the best at polygons, but still can't do much and from what I've read, the advantage is more than cpu based. The SNES can still do things that the 32X and Sega-CD can't and its average 2D games are still impressive overall for the time. You don't need crazy action all the time for every type of game. Overall, the MD, PCE and SNES produced comparable games, that's why they're all the same class and the PCE isn't "straddling the 8 - 16-bit barrier". If it was, then games like Sapphire only pull the MD and SNES down to sub-16-bit levels.

[EvilEvoIX]

My Lord!!!!! such anger (fanaticism?)  I mean....  Once you start hearing "Cunt Drip" and I believe someone dropped the N-Bomb, on PCE Forums people the N-BOMB!!!  Some of you have lost it.

Quotes from EvilEvoX in this same thread-

Reminds me of that fat chick on the view that prefaced everything with "I'm a lawyer".

Patented Fan Boi Argument 1

What I am going to attempt to do, and I ask for the fan bois to pull off their rose colored glasses, is compare the MD68K to the HU6280.

Butt-hurt?  Sorry you feel that way :/

Are we to judge the TG-16 based upon Bravo-Man or the pile of shit we westerners were given?  Everyone is quick to make excuses for that plague of shit and everyone looks passed that.  So I say we get to look passed piles of shit on the MD as well and there are bad PORTS but you mean to tell me a game like UMK3 would run as well, with as much animation and speed, and proper sound FX; dreaming.

Look at Sonic 2, the amount of shit going on in that game, the quality of sound FX and Music and then the speed, no fucking way.

Look at fucking Altered Beast?  Why is that shittyness ignored?  Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE.  Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness.

Oh and SHit Dick, I have all the games, and now all the systems and last I checked a CD Burner.  I've played the games, they are fun, stop it.  You guys get butt-hurt so easily and AGAIN I point out that hardware=shit when the software = shit.

Just because I didn't sit there with my dick in my hand and a computer keyboard in the other doesn't mean I don't know what these systems can do.

What the fuck was I thinking?

Fon Boi facts aside it is a better processor.

I'm sorry you are butt hurt and took things personally.

Listen guys, I can go to the MD sites and the Neo Sites and there are programmers just as bright eyed and furious as you are that shit over the HU6280 and support the MD68K with ans much vigor and propaganda as some of you.

Trouble is everyone I know or ever knew seems to agree with me, in fact this is the only site that seems to have trouble understanding what is obvious to anyone with a pair of ears and eyes.

On Sega-16, a Genesis/Mega Drive centric site, the programmers there said pretty much the same things that the programmers here are saying. You were ridiculed by everyone (not just programmers) much more on that site than here.

The amount of excuses being made and the amount of facts just obliterated are beyond even what I get on www.neo-geo.com and that is saying something.

So this is yet another forum where people actually don't agree with you?

I'm not going to do that and for the record have never shit on the PCE.

Except these examples in this same thread-

Music?  Not gona happen with those scratchy bleeps and bloops unless you go CD.

Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness.

Look at fucking Altered Beast?  Why is that shittyness ignored?  Apples to Apples MD Vs. PCE.  Great Animation intro thanks to CD Rom, great voice over, then 8-bit shittyness.  What excuse is there?  Why couldn't the game look as good as the MD?  Look how choppy and darty the animation is?  The music sounds like it's coming from a Halmark Music Card.  And now you tell me Earthworm Jim can come from this?

Here is a great example of true "fan boi" "rose colored glasses" and just inability to judge graphics in general. That CD intro? It's terrible and features zero "Animation". That "8-bit shittyness" looks much better than the Mega Drive version, with more detail, shading and better color. As for "choppy and darty the animation", again it is the exact opposite in reality and yet another way the PCE version is noticeably better. I'm guessing that you've never heard the sound running off of real hardware, but you've already established that you hate all PCE sound by default of being from the PCE, no matter how similar any particular game may sound to the Mega Drive version.


8-BIT SHITTYNESS <---------------------> NOT choppy and darty the animation













I think that this sums up best which version truly looks the closest to "8-bit"-

I have all three of them since day one, act one, scene one.  I have all the games now as well and years of experience.

You refused to comment on so many games during Sega-16 discussions, so I'll ask you again, if you've played all the games, even if only roms and isos, what did you think of Anearth Fantasy Stories, Gulliver Boy, Legend of Xanadu I & II, Ys IV and Cosmic Fantasy IV Chapters 1 & 2?

You really can't compare the Sega CD to the Turbo CD as the Sega CD is so much more powerful as upgrades are SUPPOSED TO BE.

The Sega-CD is a hardware upgrade. It replaces the Genesis "MD68K" cpu with a more powerful one and adds new graphics capabilities (among other things). The PCE CD-ROM only allows the same old PCE cpu to run games the exact same way, while also controlling a CD drive, streaming CD music and using adpcm samples through an extra channel (many games don't use any of those additions much of the time). Although you are correct that it shouldn't be fair to compare the powerful Sega-CD hardware to a PCE CD-ROM setup... the PCE CD still has more impressive 2D games than the Sega-CD. All powered exclusively by the hu6820.

I feel the Turbo used it's CD technology better than the Sega CD.  Mostly because of the FMV shovel ware.

So once again, even though you own all of the isos and have played all of the games, you are still completely clueless about another game library. FMV games are a tiny minority of the Sega/Mega-CD library and the hardware was pushed to amazing levels, as was the CD format.

I had the privilege of growing up with a programmer/engineer.

Did this person give you the impression that all programmers sit at a keyboard with their dick in their hand?

While this is true to an extent Sapphire is a great game let's take a close look at it.


First of all in order to play this thing you needed the following while in Japan:

A PC Engine
A CD Rom attachment that then came with the Bios Revision #1
You later purchased Bios revision 2 for CD+G
You later purchased System Card 3.0 to add support for Super CD games
You finally had to purchase an Arcade card to play Sapphire.
You had to purchase Sapphire.

In the states you needed to have the arcade card and a converter and a CD ROM then order the game.  God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.

If the MD68K is so powerful, then why is it that in order to play a cart game, you needed the following in Japan:

A Mega Drive
A Mark III Sega Mega Adaptor
A Mega Modem
A Mega-CD
A Super 32X
An Action Replay
A Mega Key
A copy of Sonic & Knuckles
A cleaning kit cart
A copy of the game





God forbid you call ANY of those upgrades or you will be bashed and burned at the stake so all of the above are NOT upgrades, not at all.

Now let's look at the game and how it plays.

That's a single player playthrough on EASY difficulty genius. Play through the game with 2 players at once on the hardest difficulty to judge what the game and hardware really do.

I don't think anyone really argues that the PCE sound chip didn't provide the best sound FX

You are demonstrating once again that you ignore the internet in general, as well as the forum discussion you "participate" in. Many people dislike PCE sound, although they tend to be people who have heard much of it. Still, many more people appreciate it, even on Sega-16. More people in the world think that the Genesis/Mega Drive has terrible sound than do not. They may be biased Nintendo fans, but you are the one using popular opinion as a measure of proof.

First thing you notice is the colors and the MD68K could never hope to have any of this.

The MD68K is a cpu and not a VDP, so your statement is true. But what you really mean, as you've been saying all along, is that the Mega Drive couldn't do any of it. But you're wrong, the Mega Drive could do much of the color/detail/shading, including some entire scenes as-is. It just can't do all of it.

Obvious lack of parallax but that is to be expected as the PCE chose color over multi-scrolling backgrounds.

It is to be expected that a vertical shooter will not necessarily feature much parallax, as they tend to not feature nearly as much as in horizontal shooters, regardless of the hardware being used. Still, Sapphire does have multi-scrolling backgrounds and I can't think of any part of the game where it looks like an extra layer of scrolling should have appeared.

There is nothing going on that the MD68K can't handle in except color.  The MD68K can handle more detailed sprites on screen and larger at that.  It's just what the hardware did.

There is more in-game (non-fmv) animation happening than any Mega Drive/Genesis ever did. I don't believe that the MD couldn't do something similar in terms of animation, but you have argued all along that because it didn't happen, the MD can't do it and therefore the PCE is far superior at animation in general.

I don't think you understand the definition of detail, but again, Sapphire tosses around as many sprites across the screen as any MD game ever has. But again, "larger" sprites is a strength of PCE games. MD and SNES games usually use a tile layer for large enemies, while the PCE usually uses massive sprites, comparable to the arcade games that Game Fan went on and on about (Juggernaut, Lucifeller, etc). If you stop lying and actually start playing all of those roms and isos, you'll soon notice than large sprites are a trademark of PCE games more so than MD or SNES games. If you look at the MD and PCE games with the most sprites on screen at a time, they look more or less the same. It's only the SNES that lacks games with that level of screen-filling sprites.

That's why you never saw a game as capable with as large of bosses and the speed they had in games such as Alien Soldier or Gunstar Heroes without cuts in multi scrolling backgrounds.

You've brought up Alien Soldier again as proof of the MD68K superiority. But if you've witnessed the game on real hardware, you'd notice the regular slowdown. That's why it's a favorite demonstration of Genesis overclockers, who attempt to bump up that superior MD68K cpu to try to minimize the slowdown. There are many MD and PCE games with a comparable amount of action happening, where you'll see more slowdown in MD games.

Alien Soldier is another Treasure game with a bunch of neat effects, but they're usually a showcase for the overall MD hardware, not the cpu. They're designed around the system's weaknesses as much as its strengths. Just like top quality PCE and SNES games. A top quality game designed around one hardware won't turn out as good if an exact port is attempted. But working around the target hardware's strengths and weaknesses will result in something also great, only somewhat different.

The MD can't do Sapphire as-is, but it could do a cool version of it. Same goes with any 2D MD game ported to PCE.

I hate to bring out this game but everyone points to it.  What is happening that can't happen on the MD68K?  Right out of the gate the sound FX would be better, you could through more sprites at it or move the bosses or sub bosses faster.

Again, I'll assume that by "MD68K" you really mean "Mega Drive". Maybe you should start playing more of your Mega Drive roms and pay attention to intense games and see how well the MD handles stuff like (or the closest it has to) Sapphire. Pause the game during the slowdown in stage one of Ranger X and look at how much is onscreen at the time. Compare that to the busiest parts of Sapphire in 2 player mode on the hardest difficulty.

The MD and PCE can do a comparable amount of action that sets them apart from the SNES. The MD can do more with background layering and some unique special effects and the PCE can do more in terms of actual graphic quality (shading/detail/color). Most experts seem to agree that the PCE hardware is better at animation, but they're still comparable. There is no "smashing victory" in terms of processing power when it comes to regular 16-bit games (2D stuff). The MD is probably the best at polygons, but still can't do much and from what I've read, the advantage is more than cpu based. The SNES can still do things that the 32X and Sega-CD can't and its average 2D games are still impressive overall for the time. You don't need crazy action all the time for every type of game. Overall, the MD, PCE and SNES produced comparable games, that's why they're all the same class and the PCE isn't "straddling the 8 - 16-bit barrier". If it was, then games like Sapphire only pull the MD and SNES down to sub-16-bit levels.

I'm sorry am I supposed to read all that?  I saw the fan boi genesis stacker series of hardware and its cute.  It's also cute to compare cd storage of animation to cart storage, really is an apples to apples example.  Did you even sit down and play altered beast for the PCE vs the MD!  Are you sure you want to make that argument?  Should I say that that MD68k is faster and moves more sprites faster and alien soldier could not be done on the PCE yet the MD could handle Sapphire without arcade card upgrades and add a multiple scrolling background to give some visual if depth?  Yes PCE CD games rule I'm playing one now.  Get over the sprite limit and move on.
Also I already stated that the PCE cd rom to me is better.  I have a stack of sega cd games that just collect dust and I've been running through most of my PCE cd games burned or otherwise.  Beats the shit outa emulators.  Sega cd just had a lot of clunkers IMHO.   No real graphical upgrades except cd sound.  Batman retuns I liked the driving and even cliff hanger the snow bonding.  I don't play RPGs.
Just saying....

[Arkhan Asylum]

See this is what I'm talking about, semantics.  You just admitted the MD68k can handle more sprites and I've been shouting it from the rooftops yet you still call me an idiot.  Ummmm, so in the late 80's early 90's one could argue that most game consoles were 2d sprite based machines and I argued that since the MD68k could handle more sprites in screen at once in addition to multi scrolling backgrounds one could indeed conclude a distinct advantage however I wouldn't call it a complete advantage.

The MD can handle "more sprites on screen at once", but the PCE can handle more sprite PIXELS on screen at once.  So which one is actually better, especially when you consider that sprites are often used for things like scenery and HUDs and shit.

So, PCE can move more pixels around at a time than the MD, and with better colors, to boot.

The PCE does 8-bit things better.  not doing Alien Soldier, sorry.  Its all over the net and in publications you had no monopoly on duch information do quit acting like you just pulled the curtain back.  I also know it does so better than the PCE.  More sprites, more detail, faster.  It's there in black and white and with all the bitching I am getting everyone seems to dance around that statement.   

Monopoly on what information?  No one here is acting like we just unveiled some huge surprise.   We're stating fairly obvious things, assuming you have any bearing on CPUs and programming.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pc+engine+can%27t+do+alien+storm

What information is all over the internet?

Also, what's your fascination with Alien Storm?   The PC Engine can do that.   The main levels are pretty uninspiring and simple, and the shooting parts just use line-scrolling, which anyone knows the PCE can do.

Also, there isn't that much sprite action going on in the beat em up sections...

[VenomMacbeth]

Also, what's your fascination with Alien Storm?   The PC Engine can do that.   The main levels are pretty uninspiring and simple, and the shooting parts just use line-scrolling, which anyone knows the PCE can do.

Also, there isn't that much sprite action going on in the beat em up sections...

Alien Soldier, Arkhan.

Not like it actually matters because it's still completely irrelevant.

[EvilEvoIX]

Just Christ what do you guys want from me?  Is it my fault that the folks at NEC released a plague of shitty 8 bit looking games in the west and in order to get any comparable game you needed a converter and 3 system card upgrades just get on an even playing field?  Why do people keep masturbating to SAPPHIRE its a great game and all but not the end all be all.  The MD68k and the PC engine are comparable.  I get it I know it.  Lets are it pull off some of the arcade craziness the MD did, it didn't.  It couldn't.  Why am I bring crucified?

[soop]

^
This user is currently ignored.

[TurboXray]

touko: Sorry that EvilEvoIX ruined this thread. I don't see any point in furthering this discussion if people have to wade through all this crap just to read what is topic related (even ourselves). If you create a new one, I'd be happy to join in (rather not have to do this on another site forum, but if so then no problem. Maybe MooZ's forum). Maybe the mods can somehow keep EvilEvoIX out of it. Dunno.

[VenomMacbeth]

We get it, Evo.  Sega does what NECan't & we unfairly "crucified" you for hijacking a thread to purvey your dumbassery.

Now who's butthurt?

[soop]

Fucking dick.  I hate censorship, but please Tom don't cease this thread, it's easily the best current thread here.  If Aaron can/wants to delete him and his threads, it's a necessary evil.