PC Engine AV Mod

[Joe Redifer]

If you guys had RGB you'd like it.

The Neo Geo is a horribly built system.  The Genesis has always been more reliable.

[PCEngineHell]

If you guys had RGB you'd like it.

The Neo Geo is a horribly built system.  The Genesis has always been more reliable.

I've never come across a dead Neo MVS or AES unless it was abused,killed by power surge,or poorly modded,or modded part went bad. I can't really agree with you that they are poorly built because I never had a MVS or AES break on me personally. The 2 slot I use now has lasted years of use and still stands strong.

[Joe Redifer]

I guess I'm not talking just about reliability, actually.  On a lot of the units, the composite sucks even worse than the Genesis, but on units where the composite is good, the RGB sucks.  In fact from what I know the RGB sucks on most of them.  They just couldn't get it right.

Oh wait, I forgot... this forum HATES RGB.

Also I've seen a lot of carts that have graphical glitches in them where they aren't supposed to have any, like small dots or lines, etc (mine happens on the select screen of Fatal Fury 2 and in the middle of the first part of stage 2 in Magician Lord).  No matter how I clean them they won't go away.

[PCEngineHell]

Ive only run into 3 "glitch" carts ever,and they were pretty abused. I completely agree with you on the composite/RGB probs with the AES. The higher number models deff had better composite,but their RGB was horrible and needed tunning. The older run systems with bad composite,I totally hate those units. They may have do able RGB,but if  a person who can't get a RGB monitor got stuck with one of those things he/she was in for bad times.

[Keranu]

Oh wait, I forgot... this forum HATES RGB.

I'd say this forum is more of an even split. The American users don't really care for RGB while the European users are all for it. Probably because they can't play PCE in PAL and may as well do the RGB mod since it's better.

[Joe Redifer]

Also in Europe they are used to RGB for almost everything.  They don't have to put up with composite.

Mike... I suppose it is possible that my Magician Lord cart was abused at some point by someone, looks to be in good shape, though.  And my Fatal Fury 2 came from Japan and was in pristine shape.  What kind of abuse would cause this?  They don't interfere with gameplay, only with displays on the screen, and then only a small part of the display.

[Keranu]

Also in Europe they are used to RGB for almost everything.  They don't have to put up with composite.

As Mike said, it's probably because they don't want to stick with crappy PAL.

[Joe Redifer]

Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite?  I believe they can.

[PCEngineHell]

Well,Sometimes the carts look fine but the cases can be heavy damaged. This can give in to clues like the game being dropped,inside the case,causing shock damage. I had a Jap FF2 cart that was like this. I had  a Sengoku MVS that was average looking,but the box took alot of damage. The cart had same probs as FF2 did,pixels in certain area of screen and never goes away. Very annoying. I figured it was prob dropped alot in its box. other cart like this was a AES Sengoku,with no case and def abuse all over it. The case held up,but I think shock just wore it down. It worked,but same probs as above,but in diff area of screen.

[PCEngineHell]

Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite?  I believe they can.

No,not that I am aware of,unless the tv will do NTSC and PAL. Pal is 625-line/50 Hz,and so unless the tv they are using will display 525-line/60 Hz NTSC in full color,it ain't gonna happen. There are tv monitors that will do both,but are expensive last I checked. Otherwise it is not typical and the majority can not do this. This is why high end Laser Disc players released in the UK that could play Pal and NTSC disc used scart support to run the NTSC disc in RGB,and this was the only way they would play without problems. The problems with this was that LD was designed around anolog composite and the conversion to RGB ended up actually looking worse. It basically was a feature on high end Pal players to allow them a way to play NTSC movies because in the UK they didn't get near the selection Asia and the USA got. Composite was out of the question because Pal tvs did not do NTSC 60hz signal trough RF, composite or s-video.

[Joe Redifer]

How would this affect certain pixels in only certain areas, I wonder?  I would think because the Neo is getting a bad connection to some part of the cart, but I guess that's not the case.  I wish the carts were smaller than a VHS cassette and would be less susceptible to this type of thing, but back then they were big so they'd impress wimpy Genesis and SNES users compared to their tiny carts.

[PCEngineHell]

Shock from being dropped can damage rom chips. Ive trown Genesis EA sports titles against the wall when I managed a game store,back when I would get bored,and they would still look fine,but wouldn't work after trying to boot them up.

[Joe Redifer]

Oh yeah?  Well I've cried, screamed, thrown tantrums all the while stomping my foot on a Genesis cartridge to crack it open.  Cart worked fine for being smashed by such a baby.

[PCEngineHell]

Yea back when 7th Saga came out on Snes my friend Alex rented it from Blockbuster. He totally hated it so we trew it over and over again at the kitchen floor,submerged it hot water and tried it couple days later and it still worked,even held its saves,amazing stuff. Still hate that game myself.

Problem with all this is you cant compare Genesis to Neo Geo in ability to damage fairly,cause most Genesis carts had very few chips on the pcb to damage,where as a Neo Cart used much much more and 2 pcbs. This doesn't mean Neo Carts were built cheaply,but I mean in terms of abuse,if you have more parts to abuse,you have more chances of causing damage chip wise or pcb wise.

Question? Since you had a Unibios did you ever do a rom check on your glitch carts? I was thinking the Unibios can check for bad roms?

Also,there are a fer MVS carts that have graphics bugs no matter what. Fatal Fury 1,in the backgrounds,and Ninja Commando as the game scrolls upwards are a couple of good examples. There are others that have probs,but those always stick fresh in my memory the most.

[Joe Redifer]

I only have one MVS cart that is a conversion.  The rest are AES.  Is the "ROM check" where you hold A, B and D at startup?  I'm sure I've tried it, but I don't know if I've done that on those two carts.  Magician Lord is cheap, so it shouldn't be hard to get one to replace it, probably brand new even.  I have no desire to replace Fatal Fury 2 since I feel the PC Engine SCD version is much more playable.  They could have secured those PCBs inside the cart better.  Lots of people don't know that they are supposed to rattle around like a cheap Chinese product.  Not even sure why they need two PCBs.

Also KPJ ever charged me much for what he did, and all he asks is that I pay shipping on this current problem.

[PCEngineHell]

Thats really good of him then if he wont charge to fix it.I don't know him personally,from what I do know he sounds better then Dean and Kurtz when it comes to quality work,but I have also heard that at pricing he is the most evil bastard out there which is why I recommended contacting the other 2 first..

Like I said,also,the 2 consolized 1-slots I fixed,they coulda been KPJ stuff,or even ArcadeKingdom. At that time period I only knew of KPJ consolizing 1-slots and actually selling them.

If KPJ fixes the prob for you,you should give him some extra kudos for it on the Neo forums,because I'm sure he could use it there. Most of the bad stuff said about him I ever read originated there. It could be the bios went bad. Wouldn't be the first time its happened. wire coulda came loose too. Who knows.

Umm as far as the rom test,I'm not sure how to access it,but I read the Unibios does it. I never used them before. I'm pretty stuck on not altering hardware more then necessary so changing out the bios on a Neo is not something I'm willing to do. Even if its on a socketed MVS board,I just wont do it because I don't care to.

[Joe Redifer]

The Universe Bios kicks ass.  Gives every game a sound test feature!  The way he did it (just by my looking at it) was to solder a socket on top of an existing chip (original BIOS chip?) and then put the Universe Bios into that socket.  Nothing seems out of whack or disconnected or shorting that I can see.

[ccovell]

Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite?  I believe they can.

No,not that I am aware of,unless the tv will do NTSC and PAL. Pal is 625-line/50 Hz...

PAL and NTSC are actually just the colour encoding standards.  There are such things as PAL-60 and PAL-50 (the more common broadcast standard).  My Super Play magazine from 1992 mentions how many TVs being sold can handle SCART as well as 60Hz video, so I'm sure there were TVs that could handle 60Hz in Europe in the 90s.  Even if a TV couldn't handle NTSC encoding, it could still display it as a 60hz greyscale video signal.

I'm surprised how many people here are trying to shoot holes in the superiority of RGB.  Let's not get carried away and imagine what the developers' "intentions" were when they drew their graphics.  I have a PC-Engine promotional video here that shows developers at Hudson working on games such as Tengai Makyou, and the graphics artists used computers with a graphic editor on-screen, and a second video monitor beside it for previewing.  Let's also not forget about the PC-Engine that was built into a computer monitor and sold in Japan; I'm sure that is connected directly via RGB.  Thus, PCE hardware WAS sold with RGB output as standard in some cases.

[PCEngineHell]

Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite?  I believe they can.

No,not that I am aware of,unless the tv will do NTSC and PAL. Pal is 625-line/50 Hz...

PAL and NTSC are actually just the colour encoding standards.  There are such things as PAL-60 and PAL-50 (the more common broadcast standard).  My Super Play magazine from 1992 mentions how many TVs being sold can handle SCART as well as 60Hz video, so I'm sure there were TVs that could handle 60Hz in Europe in the 90s.  Even if a TV couldn't handle NTSC encoding, it could still display it as a 60hz greyscale video signal.

My answer to all of that is:

PAL and NTSC are actually just the colour encoding standards. 

There is more involved then color encoding,the resolution is different as is the screen refresh rate. This is one of the reasons why older game systems displayed in letterbox type format in Pal and ran at 50 frames per second instead of 60 FPS and full screen.

Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite?  I believe they can.

No,not that I am aware of,unless the tv will do NTSC and PAL. Pal is 625-line/50 Hz,and so unless the tv they are using will display 525-line/60 Hz NTSC in full color,it ain't gonna happen. There are tv monitors that will do both,but are expensive last I checked. Otherwise it is not typical and the majority can not do this.

The majority being tvs made and sold from late 80ies untill mid to late 90ies that do not support NTSC 60hz and def not Pal-60 as a feature.


Pal-60 did not begin use in Tvs until the DVD era and Dreamcast era gaming wise and was actually originally intended for DVD use,not games,and its not the typical broadcast standard there still nor is it the standard for game systems,as there are still titles released that do not support it,and even the Wii VC doesn't use Pal-60.( It can do it but no one uses the function )

I can not confirm myself that Pal-60 does or does not work with composite or S-Video NTSC 60hz signal old ass game systems.
People I talked to in the UK about laserdisc stuff told me it may not work,so I can not comment on this by experience.

NTSC/60Hz capable PAL Tvs were not common until mid 90ies in europe and still not totally mainstream. The UK mag 3DO Magazine used to have ads for the best ones available I had ever seen. There were expensive RGB SCART monitors sold before then that did accept NTSC video input along with Pal,but RGB scart monitors sold like this were not sold or marketed as normal Pal 50hz tvs. RGB isn't the same thing as Pal,and Scart is a play on RGB and does the same thing when the scart cable carries the RGB signals. Scart also carries other signals,audio,composite ect ect...

If possible,can you dig up the ads you have,and scan and post them? That would be cool to look at .

[Seldane]

There isn't a single modern PAL TV that cannot handle NTSC flawlessly. Maybe the really, really cheap and tiny ones, but nobody uses those other than in the kitchen anyway. Pretty much every PS2/GC, etc game is playable in PAL and PAL60 mode, the latter which is a really good standard (60Hz, but PAL color encoding).

Can't their TVs do 60Hz using composite?  I believe they can.

Yep. No problems there. The TV will automatically switch over to NTSC mode whenever it gets that signal if you're using composite or RGB.

S-video is pretty much unsupported here. Many TVs won't take the signal at all, it just gets converted to composite. Sometimes one of the two scart connectors are s-video compliant, but you'll need a scart - rca/s-video converter (a little box thing that you plug in, can be bought for about 5 bucks) in order to be able to connect the s-video cable.

[esteban]

Chris, allow me to play the Devil's Advocate .

I'm surprised how many people here are trying to shoot holes in the superiority of RGB.  Let's not get carried away and imagine what the developers' "intentions" were when they drew their graphics.  I have a PC-Engine promotional video here that shows developers at Hudson working on games such as Tengai Makyou, and the graphics artists used computers with a graphic editor on-screen, and a second video monitor beside it for previewing.  Let's also not forget about the PC-Engine that was built into a computer monitor and sold in Japan; I'm sure that is connected directly via RGB.  Thus, PCE hardware WAS sold with RGB output as standard in some cases.

Chris, I think you're conflating several related issues .

1. The question is not: "Is RGB technically superior?", but rather "Is RGB aesthetically superior?"

2. What market(s) were PCE / TG-16 games designed for? What implications does this have when designing software?

As far as #2 is concerned, I humbly disagree with you . Yes, developers used computers + software, their tools of the trade, to create games. But they knew full-well that they were designing for standard televisions, and their standard practices would reflect that. A handful of niche products that could display PCE RGB would never negate the fact that 99.99% of the audience would be using composite / RF to display PCE video output. No, I don't think that developers back then would say, "OK, let's design this game with PCE RGB-user in mind."  Instead, I think they'd say, "Keep in mind that folks will be playing these games on televisions, not our workstations, so our product has to downgrade nicely for RF / composite."

Therefore, I find it hard to believe that most console artists / developers were not incredibly concerned with how their software was displayed on standard televsions. Crucial decisions and standard practices were made along these lines, IMO.

Now, as far as #1 is concerned, all preferences are completely subjective. That said, I think there is an unfortunate tendency to correlate technical "purity" as if it were a virtue unto itself. Brighter colors, more finite color separation, higher contrast, etc. are discussed as the end-all and be-all. Hogwash!

Personally, I feel that the true beauty of most older consoles (PCE included) is revealed with RF / composite / (s-video ?). Why? The games were designed that way, with a specific medium in mind, a specific canvas. That is where the character and beauty lies: in the technical limitations, the imperfections, the non-godlike aspects. Admittedly, I rarely use emulators, but when I do, I prefer to use filters that simulate horizontal scan lines.

I agree with GUTS: perfect, pure, sharp blocky pixels are aesthetically sterile as far as SMS, NES, PCE, Genny, etc. are concerned. Apparently, lots of folks prefer to strip the life and character from games? I don't (ouch, those are fighting words ).


Bottom Line: I'm not saying it isn't fun or interesting to experience component, RGB, etc. etc. It is fun. In a perfect world, I would love to have all options available at all times.

That said, I'm arguing that there is an aesthetic beauty to RF / composite / s-video + standard tv that is overlooked in technical discussions. Furthermore, the original context of these games (the designers intentions and their audience) are often ignored as well.

Let me put it this way: if I were to display in-game PCE art in my home, I would want a photograph of a messy, imperfect television screen since it captures the essence of playing the PCE console.

There is purity in impurity .

/rant

[Spector]

I second everything stevek666 says. I used to play games on a certain computer via an emulator, but once I saw the original machine up and running in rf, I couldn't go back. Rf just had so much more life in it. I think the same applies here with the PC Engine - so it's gonna be composite for me.

[Seldane]

You people are shocking me.

[Keranu]

Great post, Steve, I was getting to the same thing. I suppose further proof to support what Steve was saying is dithering. If PCE games were designed with RGB in mind, why would the graphic designers decide to use dithering in spots for games to create more colors? With RGB monitors in mind, this idea doesn't work out so well as it does for a standard RF / composite TV so I can only assume that a lot of older 16-bit and earlier games were designed with RF / composite in mind. So in a way, RF / composite was the artist's original choice of "paint", or whatever word you want to use .

[CrackTiger]

There isn't a single modern PAL TV that cannot handle NTSC flawlessly. Maybe the really, really cheap and tiny ones, but nobody uses those other than in the kitchen anyway. Pretty much every PS2/GC, etc game is playable in PAL and PAL60 mode, the latter which is a really good standard (60Hz, but PAL color encoding).

Hell, most modern TV's in North America do PAL now. The digital ones of course, not the old moldies. 

[GUTS]

I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of.  I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now.  Is S-Video possible on the Genesis?  I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.

[CrackTiger]

Chris, allow me to play the Devil's Advocate .

I'm surprised how many people here are trying to shoot holes in the superiority of RGB.  Let's not get carried away and imagine what the developers' "intentions" were when they drew their graphics.  I have a PC-Engine promotional video here that shows developers at Hudson working on games such as Tengai Makyou, and the graphics artists used computers with a graphic editor on-screen, and a second video monitor beside it for previewing.  Let's also not forget about the PC-Engine that was built into a computer monitor and sold in Japan; I'm sure that is connected directly via RGB.  Thus, PCE hardware WAS sold with RGB output as standard in some cases.

Chris, I think you're conflating several related issues .

1. The question is not: "Is RGB technically superior?", but rather "Is RGB aesthetically superior?"

2. What market(s) were PCE / TG-16 games designed for? What implications does this have when designing software?

As far as #2 is concerned, I humbly disagree with you . Yes, developers used computers + software, their tools of the trade, to create games. But they knew full-well that they were designing for standard televisions, and their standard practices would reflect that. A handful of niche products that could display PCE RGB would never negate the fact that 99.99% of the audience would be using composite / RF to display PCE video output. No, I don't think that developers back then would say, "OK, let's design this game with PCE RGB-user in mind."  Instead, I think they'd say, "Keep in mind that folks will be playing these games on televisions, not our workstations, so our product has to downgrade nicely for RF / composite."

Therefore, I find it hard to believe that most console artists / developers were not incredibly concerned with how their software was displayed on standard televsions. Crucial decisions and standard practices were made along these lines, IMO.

Now, as far as #1 is concerned, all preferences are completely subjective. That said, I think there is an unfortunate tendency to correlate technical "purity" as if it were a virtue unto itself. Brighter colors, more finite color separation, higher contrast, etc. are discussed as the end-all and be-all. Hogwash!

Personally, I feel that the true beauty of most older consoles (PCE included) is revealed with RF / composite / (s-video ?). Why? The games were designed that way, with a specific medium in mind, a specific canvas. That is where the character and beauty lies: in the technical limitations, the imperfections, the non-godlike aspects. Admittedly, I rarely use emulators, but when I do, I prefer to use filters that simulate horizontal scan lines.

I agree with GUTS: perfect, pure, sharp blocky pixels are aesthetically sterile as far as SMS, NES, PCE, Genny, etc. are concerned. Apparently, lots of folks prefer to strip the life and character from games? I don't (ouch, those are fighting words ).


Bottom Line: I'm not saying it isn't fun or interesting to experience component, RGB, etc. etc. It is fun. In a perfect world, I would love to have all options available at all times.

That said, I'm arguing that there is an aesthetic beauty to RF / composite / s-video + standard tv that is overlooked in technical discussions. Furthermore, the original context of these games (the designers intentions and their audience) are often ignored as well.

Let me put it this way: if I were to display in-game PCE art in my home, I would want a photograph of a messy, imperfect television screen since it captures the essence of playing the PCE console.

There is purity in impurity .

/rant

Yeah, but S-Video makes classic console games look blocky just like RGB.

Although I like 'sharp' images with classic consoles and don't think that emulated screen shots look like crap, I'd be happy with composite like the Duo's if the color didn't get ruined.

Every developer is different and each game is different. Some games were made to use a console's target region's supposed output limitations and others weren't. I don't think that too many decent non-Genesis 16-bit games were really trying to play off the effects/limits of RF/composite in any kind of major way that anything is lost in the jump to RGB.

But just as heavy dithering was used to blend graphics through RF/composite in some Genesis games, it actually has the opposite effect through the TG-16/PCE composite, where a gradient with dithering produces stripes of clashing color.

And as for developer's possible intentions, does anybody else remember all those 16-bit games with useless passwords where you couldn't tell a '1', from a 'l', from an 'I' on a regular TV using RF/composite?

Do the anti-RGB guys find all arcade games to be aesthetically sterile and stripped of life and character?

Personally, I appreciate game graphics in all outputs, but prefer to play with the best quality picture available.

Great post, Steve, I was getting to the same thing. I suppose further proof to support what Steve was saying is dithering. If PCE games were designed with RGB in mind, why would the graphic designers decide to use dithering in spots for games to create more colors? With RGB monitors in mind, this idea doesn't work out so well as it does for a standard RF / composite TV so I can only assume that a lot of older 16-bit and earlier games were designed with RF / composite in mind. So in a way, RF / composite was the artist's original choice of "paint", or whatever word you want to use .

Dithering is still a nice way to blend graphics, particularly straight gradients. It's like crosshatching with pen and ink.

The way it's been explained to me, the PC Engine often uses dithering in bg gradients since it doesn't have the high color bg limit that something like the SNES does.

Even colorful arcade games meant for RGB still use dithering.

Plus, we all know how lazy developers can't be bothered to program in truly colorful graphics where as someone like Mr Covell who doesn't have a big budget from a publisher or official dev kits puts many of the big guys to shame.

Even a heavily dithered game like Lords of Thunder Sega-CD still looks beautiful with a clear picture and the average person would have a hard time noticing the real difference between it and the dithered-lite Turbo/PCE version.

Do you really think that the developer never wanted you to witness the horror of this bg's gradient in anything other than RF/composite-



And what about the aesthetically sterile and stripped of life final frames of this monstrosity-

[Seldane]

There isn't a single modern PAL TV that cannot handle NTSC flawlessly. Maybe the really, really cheap and tiny ones, but nobody uses those other than in the kitchen anyway. Pretty much every PS2/GC, etc game is playable in PAL and PAL60 mode, the latter which is a really good standard (60Hz, but PAL color encoding).

Hell, most modern TV's in North America do PAL now. The digital ones of course, not the old moldies. 

Oh I should've noted that. I was talking about regular, non-HD CRT TVs.

[Keranu]

I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of.  I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now.  Is S-Video possible on the Genesis?  I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.

Yes S-video on Genesis is possible and common, from what I know. My friend does a lot of s-vid mods for Genesis.

[CrackTiger]

I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of.  I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now.  Is S-Video possible on the Genesis?  I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.

Yes S-video on Genesis is possible and common, from what I know. My friend does a lot of s-vid mods for Genesis.

I have a Pal Megadrive modded for S-Video and just like the Duo, it looks just about as 'blocky' as RGB.

But I love the vibrant colors. 

[PCEngineHell]

I just got an S-Video cord for my Saturn and it really looks nice now on my HDTV, all the gross color and illegible text from composite is taken care of.  I might not even bother with an RGB to composite encoder now.  Is S-Video possible on the Genesis?  I need to look into that, I'd love to have my CDX hooked up too and looking decent.

Akumajo Dracula X is about the only game I had probs with in s-video on the Saturn. It looked sharper,but in s-video mode there was some weird problems. You'll notice it if you start the game and right before you go to Dracula for the rein-actment battle,in the sky,you will see problems. I can't really explain it but it was present on 3 tested systems.

Everything else I ran in s-video on Saturn was just awesome.

[esteban]

This is all in good fun

Every developer is different and each game is different. Some games were made to use a console's target region's supposed output limitations and others weren't. I don't think that too many decent non-Genesis 16-bit games were really trying to play off the effects/limits of RF/composite in any kind of major way that anything is lost in the jump to RGB.

Using my "test" of hanging artwork in your home: would you prefer character sprites and backgrounds as they are displayed in an unfiltered emulator + computer monitor? Despite the fact that they are displayed in all of their digital, unadulterated glory, they do not look nearly as attractive or as aesthetically pleasing as composite / s-video + television, IMO. This is subjective: what style of art to you prefer? See below: I expand on how technology limitations and art are inter-related.

But just as heavy dithering was used to blend graphics through RF/composite in some Genesis games, it actually has the opposite effect through the TG-16/PCE composite, where a gradient with dithering produces stripes of clashing color.

This is unfortunate, but like I said, this is still what I prefer. Film (as in Hollywood and beyond) have technical issues as well when it comes to scrolling cameras past horizontal and vertical patterns (moire effect) ... it's not enough for me to get annoyed, though.

And as for developer's possible intentions, does anybody else remember all those 16-bit games with useless passwords where you couldn't tell a '1', from a 'l', from an 'I' on a regular TV using RF/composite?

Actually, this is still a problem in RGB. This is still a problem on computer monitors. I blame any developer who is foolish enough to use 1, I and l in a password system. This is not the fault of RF / composite, but the passworld system.

The modern equivalent would be a web developer who doesn't do any usability testing ... only to discover that folks can't distinguish the differences between "X" "x" or "G" "5" "S" s" in confirmation codes they are expected to enter (see #12 on this page.)

A visual confirmation graphic system is a good thing, but many are too difficult to read. For example, this is what I got when trying to create a Yahoo! account. Is that an uppercase "X"? Is the last character an "s," "5," or "S"? Maybe this only affects old people like me, but it seems that all one merely has to prove is that you're not a robot so a little bit of fuzziness should be good enough. For example, if the code is "ghj1lK" and someone who enters "ghj11K" is close enough.

Do the anti-RGB guys find all arcade games to be aesthetically sterile and stripped of life and character?

Re-read my post: I was specifically talking about older consoles designed for Rf / composite / s-video. I hold arcade games to a different standard, since they have a different medium... just as I hold computer games to a different standard.

In other words: I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics. We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with. When Sega or Data East(!) were designing games for the arcade, they had a very specific array of hardware and displays in mind.

My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.

Personally, I appreciate game graphics in all outputs, but prefer to play with the best quality picture available.

I know what you are saying . My post, though, was an attempt to make you re-consider how you define "best" (technically vs. aesthetically). If I understand you correctly, you find "technical superiority" to correlate with "aesthetic superiority".

I was arguing otherwise, though I clearly stated that our opinions on aesthetics are completely subjective.

We all define beauty in different ways.

I'm sure many of you will cringe when you hear about the old television I often use to play games: the screen is convex, like a bubble, which distorts the image. Plus, it doesn't have as many scan lines as high-end CRT tv's. Despite the low-resolution fish-tank technology, the games displayed on this ancient TV are gorgeous...

Don't hate me

[Joe Redifer]

**slaps forehead**

It is obvious that most of the people here who hate RGB with all of their being have never played in RGB.  Like I said before, if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it. 

To the person who said that when they use emulators that they like to use filters with scan lines to simulate how it looks on a TV...  RGB STILL HAS SCANLINES!  It looks nothing like an emulator.  Jeebus, it's like arguing politics with someone who's never even looked into the subject.  RGB and s-video sure aren't "blocky", no more so than composite.  In fact you'll have less resolution with composite.  Why do they use dithering?  It's not because of composite, it's because the Turbo/PC Engine's color palette is too wimpy to have solid colors in each area... THEY HAVE NO CHOICE!  I can tell when they use dithering on composite as well.  It's not like the dithering blurs into its own brand new color.  Anyone who thinks it does either needs to get their eyes checked or owns a cheap-ass TV from Wal*Mart.  Instead of blending into a new color, dithering Turbo/PCE games instead flicker/shimmer back and forth like mad!  I personally think that looks gawdawful.  It is far more distracting than the non-shimmering well-defined dither that RGB and equivalent offers.  RGB and the like also gets rid of all of that nasty "rainbow effect" on the screen as well.  Oh wait... the designers intended for the rainbow effects in high detail areas to be there?  Yeah, I'm sure they did.    You just keep on believing that.  And for the person who thinks RGB looks too "sterile", nothing could be further from the truth unless you like the graininess from RF in your games.  I suggest that you NEVER convert to HDTV because you will not be able to handle the sterile-ness  of the picture.  I bet you hate DVD, too... unless you hook it up with RF which you must if that is your argument.  In short, the picture is every bit as "alive" with RGB and the like.  I know what you are trying to say, but as far as I'm concerned, it is not an issue in video-game land.

Again, if y'all had RGB, you'd like it.

[Seldane]

They're composite fanboys. Arguing against RGB because they don't own it. Just like people argue against PS3 (for example) because they don't own it. It is human nature, everyone works this way. Saying bad things about stuff they don't own, because deep down, they really want it but can't have it (for various reasons).

[Joe Redifer]

I must reply to the film having a moire effect.  Film does not have moire.  Video does.

[esteban]

I must reply to the film having a moire effect.  Film does not have moire.  Video does.

Digital photography and film transferred to video can certainly can have the moire effect. The point, though, is that even this unfortunate event (moire effect) is not enough of a reason to hate RF / composite / s-video artifacts in video games, IMO. I've never played a game and said "Oh, the shimmering! Oh the moire effect! Oh the horror!" Seriously, this stuff doesn't detract from gameplay.

[esteban]

All in good fun :

**slaps forehead**

It is obvious that most of the people here who hate RGB with all of their being have never played in RGB.  Like I said before, if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it.

No, you keep missing the point. I don't hate RGB. I am not anti-RGB. Rather, and take the time to let this sink in: I am arguing that RGB /component is not the end-all and be-all of video game aesthetics. Get it?

I am putting forth a "theory" about digital art. See below where I quote myself (toward the end of this post).

To the person who said that when they use emulators that they like to use filters with scan lines to simulate how it looks on a TV...  RGB STILL HAS SCANLINES!  It looks nothing like an emulator.  Jeebus, it's like arguing politics with someone who's never even looked into the subject.  RGB and s-video sure aren't "blocky", no more so than composite.  In fact you'll have less resolution with composite.

If you noticed, I took the time to distinguish between video output methods and the types of displays throughout this thread. When I discuss emulators, I do so to highlight my own personal aesthetic tastes and create an "extreme" benchmark of digital purity. I thought it was self-evident, but I have been using a continuum ranging from RF + standard TV <---> emulator + computer monitor. Where does beauty begin and end on this continuum? We all have different tastes.

It is far more distracting than the non-shimmering well-defined dither that RGB and equivalent offers.  RGB and the like also gets rid of all of that nasty "rainbow effect" on the screen as well.  Oh wait... the designers intended for the rainbow effects in high detail areas to be there?  Yeah, I'm sure they did. 

Well, this is related to our other point about the moire effect. As I said, this is unfortunate, but it isn't a deal breaker. See my prior comment!

You just keep on believing that.  And for the person who thinks RGB looks too "sterile", nothing could be further from the truth unless you like the graininess from RF in your games.  I suggest that you NEVER convert to HDTV because you will not be able to handle the sterile-ness  of the picture.  I bet you hate DVD, too... unless you hook it up with RF which you must if that is your argument.  In short, the picture is every bit as "alive" with RGB and the like.  I know what you are trying to say, but as far as I'm concerned, it is not an issue in video-game land.

Again, if y'all had RGB, you'd like it.

Again, you don't get it! I'll be lame and quote myself:

I am linking video game art to their respective mediums / canvasses. I am basically arguing that console hardware + display hardware are a crucial, historically important aspect of video game aesthetics. We should be able to appreciate VG art, just as we appreciate artists for the materials they use and the media they work with. When Sega or Data East(!) were designing games for the arcade, they had a very specific array of hardware and displays in mind.

My entire point is to appreciate technical "inferiority" as an aspect of the art.

Joe, re-read my prior response to CrackTiger. I think I explained where I was coming from.

Peace, love and harmony

[ccovell]

I completely understand what Stevek666 had to say, in that the aesthetics of the matter are completely subjective.  RGB is technically superior, but what each person will prefer is up to him.

As for me, RGB does NOT look sterile.  I remember playing games like Pac-Man and Pole-Position in the arcades (remember, ancient technology), and the pure blues of the maze, and especially the solid pixels of everything in Pole Position really were appealing to me.  Playing the same on a TV is a 'little' bit distracting with all the blurring that goes on between saturated colours, and so I prefer RGB for any system.  And the shimmering with dithered/striped graphics on systems like the PCE, NES, and SMS is distracting.

But as Hamlet said, "The Play's the Thing", and something like RGB/Composite is not entirely important if you are enjoying yourself with a great game.  It's just that with RGB my eyes get some enjoyment too.

[esteban]

They're composite fanboys. Arguing against RGB because they don't own it. Just like people argue against PS3 (for example) because they don't own it. It is human nature, everyone works this way. Saying bad things about stuff they don't own, because deep down, they really want it but can't have it (for various reasons).

I know you're just kidding . And I think your post is damn funny !

But Joe, poor Joe, will think you're being literal!

[PCEngineHell]

I'm not really sure if using the PS3 in your argument is going to get you anywhere. I love RGB and despise the PS3,just as I despised the PS2,and PS1. I've messed with the PS3,I don't care for it. Its not worth the asking price. I owned a PS1 and PS2. I never liked either system hardware wise,and only liked a few titles for each system,typically the Namco titles. Any of the other titles on PS2 that I wanted I ended up buying the pc ports of them.

As for DVD, I never liked it or disliked it as a movie format.  I love it for data and file storage.
The only actual movie format I ever liked was the Laser Disc format.

I completely understand the reasons as to why they want composite and the old feel to it,and you really shouldn't knock them for it. Some people are perfectly happy with what they have,never feel like complaining,and don't feel like investing the extra $200-400 just for a improved video signal. To some its simply not worth it,to others it is. I think they understand the benefits of RGB, I mean you posted pics that did show improvements over composite Joe.

[termis]

Maybe not directly related, but the "too clean" argument does have some merit.  I recall hooking up my satellite box to my 32" Sony WEGA I had at the time using SVHS connections, and since it was "too clean", it was easy to see ugly compression artifacts from satellite signals and DVDs and so forth (but they were barely visible with composite).  Now, I know in that case the problem lied with the crappy video _source_, but nevertheless, the whole  "maybe it wasn't intended to be that clean" argument does have some merit.

That said, I kept still kept the SVHS connection on, because overall, it did look better when the source was good.

...if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it.

And I'm pretty sure I'd agree with that.  Even though I don't have RGB, I'm sure I'd like it, and will probably go that route once I'm all set up somewhere to finally have my own "entertainment room".

Overall, I think the composite guys are generally saying, it doesn't matter _all that much_ - which I think is true for most average gamers.  For me, I can't imagine the thought of playing consoles that support stereo in mono, but I'm sure there are a lot of guys that don't care one way or the other.

[Joe Redifer]

Well I'm not much into art even though I am an artist.  I never said that games aren't fun if they're not in RGB.  I'm just saying that it is aesthetically better than composite by a factor of about 20 for me.  What do you guys do when you see a PlayChoice 10 in an arcade?  It's hooked up in RGB.  Do you think a real NES looks better at home?  How about stuff like Pac Man and Ms. Pac Man?  Those games have even crappier color palettes than the TurboGrafx yet there they are in RGB.  The reason I am being so hard on some of you is because you make it sound like you'd never appreciate RGB if you had it, and I'm pretty sure you would.  I think the key thing here is nostalgia.  You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present.  That's gotta be it.

And it doesn't cost up to $400 for RGB.  Not sure where that figure came from.

As for the moire thing, that has nothing to do with film and everything to do with video.  Film is not even in the equation.  It's what video does to the image due to a poor telecine process and also the crap resolution of VHS.  Watch film on film and you won't see any moire unless maybe it had a digital intermediate somewhere along the line.  Oh well, we can let this one go since it really doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.

[PCEngineHell]

Well I'm not much into art even though I am an artist.  I never said that games aren't fun if they're not in RGB.  I'm just saying that it is aesthetically better than composite by a factor of about 20 for me.  What do you guys do when you see a PlayChoice 10 in an arcade?  It's hooked up in RGB.  Do you think a real NES looks better at home?  How about stuff like Pac Man and Ms. Pac Man?  Those games have even crappier color palettes than the TurboGrafx yet there they are in RGB.  The reason I am being so hard on some of you is because you make it sound like you'd never appreciate RGB if you had it, and I'm pretty sure you would.  I think the key thing here is nostalgia.  You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present.  That's gotta be it.

And it doesn't cost up to $400 for RGB.  Not sure where that figure came from.

As for the moire thing, that has nothing to do with film and everything to do with video.  Film is not even in the equation.  It's what video does to the image due to a poor telecine process and also the crap resolution of VHS.  Watch film on film and you won't see any moire unless maybe it had a digital intermediate somewhere along the line.  Oh well, we can let this one go since it really doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about.

Actually Joe, as most of these people who love composite,like Keranu,prob only have tvs in their game room doing composite,and maybe s-video,they are going to need
1. A: RGB monitor. A new custom built Wells garner in a box RGB monitor can run around $400-900 depending on the size of the CGA tube OR  B: 25-27 inch Component capable TV set that is of good quality. $200-240.
2.RGB mods for every old system,that does not offer RGB out by AV port,price will vary depending on system and how much work is involved. Most people who do not feel good about their soldering skills are going to have to pay someone to do the RGB mods,and that can get expensive depending on who does the mod for them. Most anytime I have seen someone offer to do a Pc-Engine RGB mod they usually charge $40-70.
3. A RGB to Component video converter if they plan to use a component Tv. This will run $50-80 depending on the quality of the item.
4. New cables for all this. Lets be cheap and say $10 for the cheap stuff.
 Lets do a add up for a couple of systems and a component set up.
We will use the minimum prices.
Tv 200
 Couple of systems modded for RGB 40x2=80
RGB to Component box 40
Cables 10.

All together before any type of sales tax is $330. This is doing it on a cheapskate budget using the lowest quality parts available and hoping you know someone who will do the mods for 40 bucks each on lets say,umm, a Pc-Engine and a TG-16 or Snes 2 deck.
I guess you just assumed everyone here has Component capable tv sets.

[Joe Redifer]

Yeah I was pretty sure component was the norm these days.  I see component on more TV sets (SDTV) than s-video.  Many Sony SDTVs don't even have s-video any more.  My TV is 20 inches (maybe 21?) and was definitely less than $200.  And before that I had a 13 inch TV that just happened to have component, which is why I bought the SCART RGB to YUV transcoder.  Then I bought SCART RGB cables.  The only system I had to mod was the TurboGrafx-16 CD attachment unit.  The TurboGrafx itself remains unmodded.  As far as 10 SCART RGB cables?  I only have 5... Genesis, SNES, TurboGrafx, Saturn, NeoGeo (teh future iz now... MEGA SHOCK!).  Oh yeah I had to have an RGB bypass done since SNK was pathetic when they built the NeoGeo.  All in all I'd say I spent around $200 for my setup, TV not included.  As you say, it's not for everybody, but that in no way means composite is aesthetically better unless for nostalgic reasons.

As for all of the other systems, they are hooked up to an HDTV since they can provide 480p or better.  And they all have component cables.

[Keranu]

Whoa, whoa, things are getting a little crazy around here. Lets all cool down. 

It is obvious that most of the people here who hate RGB with all of their being have never played in RGB.  Like I said before, if you guys had RGB or equivalent you'd like it.

You're right, I haven't experienced RGB on an older console.  However I never said I flat out didn't like RGB and I appreciate what it offers. However as stated multiple times already: 1. ) I like what composite offers already and have no problems with it, 2. ) I prefer to keep my older consoles intact and untouched, 3. ) I do not want to spend a lot of money just to play my games in RGB. It's all taste, my friend, no need to get angry.

This kind of reminds me of playing old Gameboy games. In my house, I have a variety of Gameboy systems: Gameboy, Gameboy Pocket, Gameboy Color, and GBA SP. When I have enough batteries laying around (I really need to get an AC adapter), I love to play the old Gameboy games on the original Gameboy, with it's green screen glory. To me it just feels nicer to play these older games for what they were designed for and it brings out the best experience of Gameboy to me. Doesn't mean I don't like to play it on the Pocket or SP, but I can't help but loving these games on the original the most. So you play your games on your Gameboy and I'll play mine on mine .

RGB and s-video sure aren't "blocky", no more so than composite.

I might have to see that in person to take your word for it, but in the RGB and s-video pictures I've seen posted in this thread, I have seen some blocky pixels. Check out the third pic in this link for a good example in s-video and this pic for a good example in RGB.

I can tell when they use dithering on composite as well.  It's not like the dithering blurs into its own brand new color.  Anyone who thinks it does either needs to get their eyes checked or owns a cheap-ass TV from Wal*Mart.  Instead of blending into a new color, dithering Turbo/PCE games instead flicker/shimmer back and forth like mad!

I can also tell when dithering is used on composite. In my opinion, the composite does a better job "blending" the dithering though. Also if dithering isn't used to blend in a new shade of color, then what is it for ? You mentioned earlier that some Turbo games were forced to use dithering because there weren't enough shades available, but this doesn't make sense to me if dithering isn't used for "blending in" colors.

I think the key thing here is nostalgia.  You remember playing the games with shimmering, smeared video, etc and it helps you feel more nostalgic when those things are present.  That's gotta be it.

Well actually no. The reason being I never noticed these things when I was a kid playing games ! In fact I haven't really noticed this whole shimmering thing until you brought it up and honestly it's nothing that bothers me. So whenever I see shimmering in the games I play now, I think of you, dear Joe . As for rainbow effects, those kinda look cool!

[Joe Redifer]

I have seen some blocky pixels. Check out the third pic in this link for a good example in s-video and this pic for a good example in RGB.

I'm not seeing any blockiness in those pictures that's not the usual result of 240p.  Perhaps your are confusing "blocky" with the dithering which is more defined ?  Again, if these pictures look worse to you than composite (which they seem to), then I have no clue how you could ever appreciate a real arcade game.

As stated before, dithering is like crosshatching.  It doesn't blur into a new color with composite, instead it flickers like crazy or it moires, making it really stand out against the other colors.

[Keranu]

I'm not seeing any blockiness in those pictures that's not the usual result of 240p.  Perhaps your are confusing "blocky" with the dithering which is more defined?  Again, if these pictures look worse to you than composite (which they seem to), then I have no clue how you could ever appreciate a real arcade game.

Yes, the RGB makes the dithering more defined, which in my opinion, looses the magic of the effect. And yes you are right, the RGB pictures in the most part do look worse than the composite in my opinion, however I'm not saying the RGB doesn't look good and doesn't have it's advantages, which I believe I've already stated. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say how I could never appreciate a real arcade game when I really do because as I've said before, I never said I hate RGB. Also as Steve pointed out, old console games in composite have a different quality than arcade games do in a cabinet.

As stated before, dithering is like crosshatching.  It doesn't blur into a new color with composite, instead it flickers like crazy or it moires, making it really stand out against the other colors.

Wikipedia, even though it's not a source I necessarily like to use, has a pretty good article on dithering. If you go down to the "Digital photography and image processing" section, you can read the following:

"Dithering is a technique used in computer graphics to create the illusion of color depth in images with a limited color palette (color quantization). In a dithered image, colors not available in the palette are approximated by a diffusion of colored pixels from within the available palette. The human eye perceives the diffusion as a mixture of the colors within it (see color vision). Dithering is analogous to the halftone technique used in printing. Dithered images, particularly those with relatively few colors, can often be distinguished by a characteristic graininess, or speckled appearance."

So while dithering doesn't technically create a new color, it gives the illusion of it, which is why it's used in the first place.

[Joe Redifer]

Yes, but I'd rather have my fake color not distract me with mad flickering and/or moire rainbows.  Mad flickering and moire also lose the magic of the effect... an effect where there really isn't any magic.

Also as Steve pointed out, old console games in composite have a different quality than arcade games do in a cabinet.

Yes, that's because arcade games are in RGB.  The PlayChoice 10 is an NES, technically.

[Keranu]

Yes, but I'd rather have my fake color not distract me with mad flickering and/or moire rainbows.  Mad flickering and moire also lose the magic of the effect... an effect where there really isn't any magic.

Like I said, you play your Gameboy games on yours and I'll play mine on mine . Personally I think you have to be a videophile for the shimmering to bother you enough to mod your system.

Also as Steve pointed out, old console games in composite have a different quality than arcade games do in a cabinet.

Yes, that's because arcade games are in RGB.  The PlayChoice 10 is an NES, technically.

I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying, but those arcade games are actually designed for RGB while 16-bit and earlier consoles were designed with RF / composite in mind, so each have their own kind of quality to them.

[Joe Redifer]

The PlayChoice 10 uses the same games that are on the NES!  I think the romfiles might be a bit different due to the fact that some of the color locations are swapped, but in the end you are playing the same exact game... in RGB.  Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand what I am saying.  There was even an arcade machine that ran Genesis games.  Maybe the PC Engine wasn't awesome enough to get an arcade machine?