Thinking about getting a PVM

jperryss · 07/13/2016, 07:40 PM

Hey folks, I'm thinking about ditching my Trinitron TV setup for a smaller PVM. I'll be running a Famicom AV, SFC, PCE briefcase, and a Wii into it.

Do I need to mod these older systems to get component out? Will I see drastic improvements with a PVM over a decent CRT if I stick to composite out?

The 14" models seem to be the most common and the spot I have in mind won't fit a 20". Think I can get away with a 14" for single-player gaming?

Thanks!

CGQuarterly · 07/13/2016, 08:21 PM

A PVM is only going to be an upgrade over a consumer-grade Trinitron if you're going to play your games in RGB. Composite will look about the same as it would on a nice-quality TV like a Trinitron. The Famicom and PCE will both need to be modded (not cheap). SFC does RGB out-of-the-box unless it's the mini version. For the Wii, you would just need to make sure to buy a newer PVM that is capable of component video as well as RGB. I have 2 14" PVMs and I think they're great. You just want to have it up at eye level, and not be sitting too far away. So it's great for desktop use.

crazydean · 07/13/2016, 08:35 PM

The Famicom is a pain to mod for RGB, but the others aren't too bad. The Wii is actually capable of doing RGB out through a software hack, at least that's what Phonedork says. I use a 20" BVM, and I think that a 14" would be too small, but it's up to you. As Jibba says, if you are up close to it, then it's plenty big enough.

I recommend checking out Phonedork on YT and retrorgb.com

SignOfZeta · 07/13/2016, 08:53 PM

I use a 19" JVC. I disagree that you need RGB. These displays cost a grand more than a regular TV for good reasons. Composite will be the "worst" but it will still be good. Y/C gets you about %80 of the way to RGB and of course RGB or YPBPr is best. Mine takes any of these signals looks flawless and cost $40. In short, I totally support your decision.

CGQuarterly · 07/13/2016, 10:35 PM

I'm not saying that you *need* RGB. But if you already have a nice Trinitron display and all you want is composite and s-video, then tracking down a PVM is a waste of time and money. The word is out on RGB and PVMs, so finding one cheap is not as easy as it once was.

wildfruit · 07/14/2016, 04:17 AM

I would say the composite on nec hardware is actually very decent. These are the consoles I've noticed that rgb makes a real difference.
Ps1
Wii
Dreamcast
Mega drive.

Arkhan Asylum · 07/14/2016, 05:19 AM

Waste of time and money. All of the systems you listed look fine with composite, and you won't see a drastically amazing improvement.

You'll just see a dent in your wallet, and then the fucker will break or need maintenance, and you won't be able to replace it with another 10$ TV from the thrift store.

Besides, PVMs are overrated pieces of shit. The forward thinking route would be to buy an upscaler from Micomsoft (XRGB3 or Framemeister), and use

1) Any new TV
2) *bonus!* any VGA monitor.

You know all those old CRT monitors that thriftstores have for like, nothing? You can jam upscalers into them. Boom. You get scanlines/etc.

They make cheap ass RGB cables for SFC. Cheap component for Wii. Famicom will look whatever-ok-sorta-whatever in composite, and PCE composite is pretty much the best composite that has ever existed.

but, you can RGB mod a PCE and shove it in there too.

jperryss · 07/14/2016, 11:51 AM

Thanks for all the input, guys.

The driver for this change is physical space, so sticking with my Trinitron TV is the least-reasonable option, and spending $300+ for an upscaler and running a chunky VGA monitor is only slightly more reasonable. PVMs look a little more compact and don't seem to be TOO expensive right now. I don't plan on using a switcher or anything, I just want to be able to plop it on the desk, plug a system into it, and playing. And I could easily tuck away a 15" cube when not in use.

It looks like it'd be simple enough to run composite for starters and eventually upgrade them to RGB-out. Except for the Wii which I'll need to do some reading up on since it's already softmodded and might be free and/or relatively easy. I'd probably start with the SFC since it doesn't require any crazy mod work.

Quote from: crazydean on 07/13/2016, 08:35 PMI recommend checking out Phonedork on YT and retrorgb.com

This site is great, thanks for the recommendation!

CrackTiger · 07/14/2016, 11:57 AM

My 32" Wega is much better of a gaming screen than my small RGB monitor, but it's nice to play arcade and misc on the RGB monitor from time to time.

CGQuarterly · 07/14/2016, 12:33 PM

If you just want a small gaming monitor, a Commodore 1702 is also a good option. It has composite and s-video inputs and an excellent picture.

bartre · 07/14/2016, 06:14 PM

It's worth noting that many, if not most PVM/BVM monitors don't have speakers built in, and many of those don't do stereo for whatever reason.
so you know, if you're gonna go the PVM route (which I honestly think is just for the purists) account for that too.

I really love my PVM, but when it's dead dead DEAD, I'm probably done with CRTs.
already got the Framemeister, and it's pretty dope.

crazydean · 07/14/2016, 07:24 PM

A cheaper option is the Olypus OEV143 and OEV203. They're medical endoscopy monitors which are simply re-branded Sony PVM20M2MDU and PVM14M2MDU. I had an OEV203 which actually looked damn good. I think I got mine for around $125 shipped on ebay. The reason they are cheaper is that they don't say "SONY PVM" on them. If you open up the case, you can see Sony and Trinitron all over the internals.

Also, as with most PVM's, they output mono only. While BVM's have no speaker at all. I just use a pair of $30 computer speakers for stereo.

CGQuarterly · 07/14/2016, 08:19 PM

Quote from: bartre on 07/14/2016, 06:14 PMIt's worth noting that many, if not most PVM/BVM monitors don't have speakers built in, and many of those don't do stereo for whatever reason.
so you know, if you're gonna go the PVM route (which I honestly think is just for the purists) account for that too.

I really love my PVM, but when it's dead dead DEAD, I'm probably done with CRTs.
already got the Framemeister, and it's pretty dope.

That's a very good point.

geise · 07/14/2016, 09:10 PM

I have one pvm that now has discoloration on the side like speakers were sitting next to it for a long time. The degaussing coil to a shit and now I am stuck with it. There is a place near me that still fixes tube tv's but I'm sure it's $$$$. I got a 2nd pvm and it works awesome. However now the S-Video makes (for some reason) two of my arcade pcb's black and white. EVERYTHING else through that S-Video port shows color. Just not two of my pcb's. On my other pvm those two pcb's show in color fine through S-Video. It's little shit like that you can run into. Even though a Framemeister is more than a pvm, in the long run it might be the best route to go. I do hear certain games like on Genesis have issues. Sonic is one I believe. Tons of good videos on youtube talk about that stuff. With all that said I do love my current pvm though, just sometimes it can be a pain with the little minor shit I mentioned.

SignOfZeta · 07/14/2016, 09:26 PM

Unless you are dealing within an arcade system (CPS, MVS, etc) then that kind of weird shit is common from one arcade PCB to the next. It has nothing to do with PVMs in general. Note the compatibility modes on XRGBs through the years. None of them are perfect. No PVM is perfect and no arcade board is either. Only HMDI is perfect but only cheap modern garbage has this feature so...life in general is yet to be perfected.

Not having color from the s-video is kinda strange though. Does your monitor have an impedance switch? It would say 75 Ohm or "open".

bartre · 07/15/2016, 11:06 AM

Quote from: crazydean on 07/14/2016, 07:24 PMtop secret intel

I'm..... eyeing something now.
good knowledge, I'll make sure not to share

geise · 07/15/2016, 04:01 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 07/14/2016, 09:26 PMDoes your monitor have an impedance switch? It would say 75 Ohm or "open".

No, it does not. Yeah I thought it was strange. I still think it's that pvm's s-video, especially since they all work fine in color on my other pvm through s-video.

SignOfZeta · 07/15/2016, 04:42 PM

What are the two boards?

geise · 07/15/2016, 06:44 PM

Captain America and the Avengers and a 138 in 1 multi mvs cart.

EDIT: Oh and here is what's weird on the 138 in 1. It's only the menu that's B/W. All the games are fine and in color. That doesn't happen on the other pvm.

SignOfZeta · 07/15/2016, 09:42 PM

Okay, that weird. Do you have a ROM of the exact multi cart you have?

GohanX · 07/17/2016, 09:06 PM

Quote from: geise on 07/14/2016, 09:10 PMI have one pvm that now has discoloration on the side like speakers were sitting next to it for a long time. The degaussing coil to a shit and now I am stuck with it. There is a place near me that still fixes tube tv's but I'm sure it's $$$$. I got a 2nd pvm and it works awesome. However now the S-Video makes (for some reason) two of my arcade pcb's black and white. EVERYTHING else through that S-Video port shows color. Just not two of my pcb's. On my other pvm those two pcb's show in color fine through S-Video. It's little shit like that you can run into. Even though a Framemeister is more than a pvm, in the long run it might be the best route to go. I do hear certain games like on Genesis have issues. Sonic is one I believe. Tons of good videos on youtube talk about that stuff. With all that said I do love my current pvm though, just sometimes it can be a pain with the little minor shit I mentioned.

Get a deguassing wand, that should do the trick. If the screen is small you might get away with using a corded drill, you can find directions on Google.

Groover · 07/19/2016, 11:35 PM

Anyone have any tips for buying a PVM locally? I mean like where to look?

SignOfZeta · 07/20/2016, 01:05 AM

There are so many on Craigslist near me I can't imagine needing any other tips. Thrift stores occasionally pay off really well.

crazydean · 07/20/2016, 05:20 PM

Quote from: Groover on 07/19/2016, 11:35 PMAnyone have any tips for buying a PVM locally? I mean like where to look?

Unfortunately, I have to buy mine off ebay. Depending on what part of the country you live in, it can be very easy or very hard.

SignOfZeta · 07/20/2016, 05:36 PM

Even South Carolina has TV stations.

crazydean · 07/20/2016, 06:18 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 07/20/2016, 05:36 PMEven South Carolina has TV stations.

Sure there are, but I've never seen any production monitors for sale locally. Has anyone tried just going into a TV station to see if they have any for sale?

johnnykonami · 07/20/2016, 10:49 PM

Quote from: crazydean on 07/20/2016, 06:18 PM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 07/20/2016, 05:36 PMEven South Carolina has TV stations.
Sure there are, but I've never seen any production monitors for sale locally. Has anyone tried just going into a TV station to see if they have any for sale?

I tried MPT (Maryland Public Television) near me but they are not allowed to sell/donate/give away any equipment as it's government owned. Maybe if you live near more private run TV stations you might have some luck, but for me that's pretty much it around me for TV stations.

PunkCryborg · 07/20/2016, 11:25 PM

best place to find PVMs is from medical equipment resellers

SamIAm · 07/20/2016, 11:42 PM

When my university splurged on a big fancy business department building around 2000, they spent top dollar on all kinds of redundant crap, including many of what I think were the largest size PVM/BVM monitors ever made. The university holds auctions on old equipment every year or so (a few of the chairs in my house came from there), and if I still lived in town, I'd be watching them like a hawk for those monitors.

SignOfZeta · 07/21/2016, 02:09 AM

I'm not saying to go to TV stations. That's not probably going to work. I'm saying that if you have TV stations in your area then some of these things exist or at least existed in your area. They go to auction, they go to employees, they go on Craigslist, eBay, whatever. TV stations, video services, things like that, these are the only places that bought these things originally. No consumer wanted a 19" display in 1998 with no tuner and a price tag of $1800, just the commercial market.

Keep looking, check Craigslist more than anything, be prepaired to drive if you live in BFE. If you live in a city don't be afraid to drive *to* BFE. Be creative in your search terms. Most people in the real world don't use terms like "PVM". Don't limit yourselves to Sony, I have a JVC that is amazing (quite possibly it's a rebadge Sony, I don't know).

Gypsy · 07/21/2016, 03:39 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 07/21/2016, 02:09 AMI'm not saying to go to TV stations. That's not probably going to work. I'm saying that if you have TV stations in your area then some of these things exist or at least existed in your area. They go to auction, they go to employees, they go on Craigslist, eBay, whatever. TV stations, video services, things like that, these are the only places that bought these things originally. No consumer wanted a 19" display in 1998 with no tuner and a price tag of $1800, just the commercial market.

Keep looking, check Craigslist more than anything, be prepaired to drive if you live in BFE. If you live in a city don't be afraid to drive *to* BFE. Be creative in your search terms. Most people in the real world don't use terms like "PVM". Don't limit yourselves to Sony, I have a JVC that is amazing (quite possibly it's a rebadge Sony, I don't know).

This is very true. I actually know a guy in my area that gets most of the stuff from the school districts, tv stations etc... He won't talk about it much, but clearly he has an in. The nice thing is, he is quite reasonable on his prices. I figure he must get them for free or close to it, because the last ancient monitor I picked up from him was only $5. He knows I'm looking for this stuff, so typically I have first dibs. Nothing amazing yet but I have acquired some fun tech things from him. Anyway main point being, I originally met this guy through a CL ad when I was looking to buy a cheapy PC tower. So you never know when you can make a great connection like this.

jtucci31 · 07/21/2016, 03:43 PM

I checked CL for well over a year semi-regularly before I found one. DragonmasterDan helped me out and I went to pick it up the next day, was about an hour drive into the city. Totally worth it, I love my PVM. I wish I had more honestly but getting them on ebay is the last way I'd go

SignOfZeta · 07/21/2016, 04:38 PM

Yeah, eBay is not prefered.

johnnykonami · 07/21/2016, 11:18 PM

There's a freebie Sony-KD-34XBR960 local to me, it's a widescreen CRT. I assume it will simply stretch 4:3 signals to the edges so I'll probably pass on it. It would be good for PS2 but I can't just stock up on giant televisions for obvious reasons. Anyone have any experience with these?

SignOfZeta · 07/21/2016, 11:58 PM

I have one and I LOVE IT. It has no trouble playing anything at its proper aspect ratio because a: it's from 2004 when most content was still 4:3 and 2: it's a top level $2500 TV from Sony, not some cut rate "size matters" piece of shit Vizeo. My newest TV is from about two years ago but nothing I've ever owned has forced things wide. I consider that a mark of a bad product but I don't review TVs for a living so I don't know what's normal. Regardless, the XBR960 is a miracle. One of the greatest CRTs ever.

However, I can't really recommend it for SD gaming. It's designed to play LDs and DVDs, you know, movies, and while games certainly don't look bad at all on the thing, it's not like what people think of when they thing "CRT". It is an HDTV in every way. All sorts of fancy signal processing that you can adjust but never turn off. Even an HDMI input. It scales everything to whatever its native res is...I can't remember, 720p I think. It does a flawless job of it but it becomes totally smooth and sure as shit has no visable scanlines at all. I do play games on it all the time but my PVM crushes it in what we consider a good picture for gaming. Let's say B- with the qualification that there is a lot of variation in taste in this department. PS3 and up look amazing. Blurays are holyfuckamazing.

For your LD collection, absolutely, for PCE...only if you already have it for your LD collection.

Also, it weighs 250 lbs, doesn't have good handles, and nobody I've found will even attempt to repair or calibrate one, largely due to it being a house call situation. For the hardcore CRT enthusiast these concepts are thrilling but it is extremely impractical. I'm almost (almost) glad LCD exploded in popularity like it did because TVs really couldn't get much heavier than this and not damage some homes.

Digi.k · 07/22/2016, 12:12 AM

just do it guys if you can get it cheap... then you can stress over whether you should have stuck with your previous set up or prefer the PVM and then you will spend more time tinkering with it till you get the right balance of color and contrast etc...

I much prefer the color of plasma as its quite close to the colors you get from emulators. BVM pics

SignOfZeta · 07/22/2016, 02:07 AM

Mine is currently in the shop (power supply) but I have some pics from when I first got it.

From the JAMMA PCB:

Now, check this out. This PC Engine setup?

Thats a composite hookup. You know, the shitty hookup nobody wants because its garbage. Straight to the display, no mods or repairs or anything, totally original PCE. Lighting was terrible when I took these pics too which is most of why they don't look as good as the RGB from Street Fighter.

When I'm back up and running I'll post better pics. I have a s-video Genesis that looks like MAGIC on this thing. This has honestly lead me to a new apreciation of Genesis. I think maybe half of the reason I always associated the Genesis as being a brown blurry POS was because the composite on mine back in the day was so bad. I always used one of those C64 monitors back then and the SNES and Duo looked way better, now the Genesis looks great too.

Gypsy · 07/22/2016, 08:44 AM

Quote from: johnnykonami on 07/21/2016, 11:18 PMThere's a freebie Sony-KD-34XBR960 local to me, it's a widescreen CRT. I assume it will simply stretch 4:3 signals to the edges so I'll probably pass on it. It would be good for PS2 but I can't just stock up on giant televisions for obvious reasons. Anyone have any experience with these?

Yeah I actually have a similar tv. I have one in the same line (presumably) but the number is 800. It does not stretch the picture. You get black bars on the sides. You can stretch it if you want to, but yeah.

The biggest general difference is the one I have has DVI input instead of HDMI. I mostly use it for multi-player gaming when inviting people over.

Also I can back up what Zeta said. It's definitely an HDTV. There is input lag playing old games. And yes like he said these effers are heavy, so make sure you can lift it if you do go. I'd say probably at least one other person unless you are quite strong, preferably a third to make it easy peasy.

And yes most Genny composite is total crap. It's one of the systems that benefits the most from other video options IMO.

Edit: I can't read.

crazydean · 07/22/2016, 04:17 PM

Quote from: johnnykonami on 07/21/2016, 11:18 PMThere's a freebie Sony-KD-34XBR960 local to me, it's a widescreen CRT. I assume it will simply stretch 4:3 signals to the edges so I'll probably pass on it. It would be good for PS2 but I can't just stock up on giant televisions for obvious reasons. Anyone have any experience with these?

Thats a badass TV. 7 inputs, including two S-video, two YPbPr and an HDMI. Definitely the way to go if you don't want to bother with a commercial monitor.

Joe Redifer · 07/22/2016, 07:39 PM

Composite video from the PCE looks great in still images. But what those stills don't show is the weird dithering that flickers back and forth, kind of like the NES. Boot up the YS Book 1 and 2 title screen and watch Feena's hair flicker like CrAzY. Jump down, kill th spider and then climb up that rope in The Legendary Axe and the background gets all fuzzy as it dithers all over the place as it scrolls. NES does the same thing. I do NOT miss that on either system since going to RGB.

ToyMachine78 · 07/22/2016, 09:03 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 07/20/2016, 05:36 PMEven South Carolina has TV stations.

What the hell do you know about SC?

SignOfZeta · 07/22/2016, 09:14 PM

I'm sorry. I just assumed SC had TV stations. My mistake.

ToyMachine78 · 07/22/2016, 09:33 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 07/22/2016, 09:14 PMI'm sorry. I just assumed SC had TV stations. My mistake.

We don't! Don't assume shit. That's lazy! Here in SC we have to sit on the floor and watch marionette shows, and listen to the radio... But you know what!? We are in stellar shape because of it!

Here in SC, we don't need TV programming, long cords, PVMs, Pokemon GO, or guys named Zeta(a southern man don't need him around anyhow).

All SC needs are hot women,TG16, PC Engine, Beer, Crazydean, and the old rover!!!

Digi.k · 07/29/2016, 08:44 AM

Problem now is that you tend to notice imperfections where you didn't before.

I now started noticing jail bars on my screen shots...

SignOfZeta · 07/29/2016, 02:45 PM

You might be able to calibrate that out. The image looks too bright anyway. The white digits are blooming and the colors look...too happy. I'm not an expert on PoP but Rondo looks like it's way too bright.

Nazi NecroPhile · 07/29/2016, 03:04 PM

Princess Kickass is disappoint.

wildfruit · 07/29/2016, 03:08 PM

I had a nice no name 28" 4:3 crt that rgb looked great on, unfortunately it died. My aunt gave me an old toshiba 32" 16:9. Rgb looks great on that too. Weighs a ton though. Definitely a 2 man carry. It has a 4:3 mode. I really should get a scart splitter though, such a pita keep swapping leads over as only one socket is rgb. The other is s video and I don't have anything with that.

johnnykonami · 07/29/2016, 07:46 PM

I don't have any hopes of finding a PVM but I am checking my craigslist everyday for a replacement component tube. Seen a couple but many are flat, I was thinking of trying to get a rounded screen and holding out for a Sony or other decent brand. (JVC?)

Gypsy · 07/29/2016, 08:10 PM

Quote from: johnnykonami on 07/29/2016, 07:46 PMI don't have any hopes of finding a PVM but I am checking my craigslist everyday for a replacement component tube. Seen a couple but many are flat, I was thinking of trying to get a rounded screen and holding out for a Sony or other decent brand. (JVC?)

Unless you are wanting one for free (which is reasonable and doable) try hitting up local thrift stores. I stopped by one earlier today and there were 5 rounded tube tvs out (few flat ones too, most had component but none were great brands) and odds are they have more in the back. Good luck on your quest.

johnnykonami · 08/03/2016, 11:09 PM

Quote from: Gypsy on 07/29/2016, 08:10 PM
Quote from: johnnykonami on 07/29/2016, 07:46 PMI don't have any hopes of finding a PVM but I am checking my craigslist everyday for a replacement component tube. Seen a couple but many are flat, I was thinking of trying to get a rounded screen and holding out for a Sony or other decent brand. (JVC?)
Unless you are wanting one for free (which is reasonable and doable) try hitting up local thrift stores. I stopped by one earlier today and there were 5 rounded tube tvs out (few flat ones too, most had component but none were great brands) and odds are they have more in the back. Good luck on your quest.

Yeah, I should try that one day, good call. I might just go for one of the flat screen trinitrons that show up on craigslist all the time for free, but I haven't had the help available to move of those suckers just yet.

2/13/2025: Localization News - Cosmic Fantasy 3-4!

Thinking about getting a PVM