Console RGB vs Wii RGB

[crazydean]

I recently received an official Wii RGB cable from ebay and hooked it up to play some Super Mario Sunshine. It looks fantastic, but it got me wondering how the emulators look vs the real deal.

After a little research, I fired up SNES9X GX on the Wii which is able to output RGB via 240p and took some pictures. I then ran the same game on my modded mini SNES and took some more pictures. Even way zoomed in, I can barely tell which is which. Very surprised.

The sizing isn't the same on the ones I took tonight. So, if anyone is interested in A/B shots, I can take some tomorrow. Also, I was thinking of doing comparisons of other consoles, any suggestions for which? I could do PCE if the emulator allows RGB.

[SignOfZeta]

Wii RGB is incredible. It looks better than consoles.

[DragonmasterDan]

I recently received an official Wii RGB cable from ebay and hooked it up to play some Super Mario Sunshine. It looks fantastic, but it got me wondering how the emulators look vs the real deal.

After a little research, I fired up SNES9X GX on the Wii which is able to output RGB via 240p and took some pictures. I then ran the same game on my modded mini SNES and took some more pictures. Even way zoomed in, I can barely tell which is which. Very surprised.

The sizing isn't the same on the ones I took tonight. So, if anyone is interested in A/B shots, I can take some tomorrow. Also, I was thinking of doing comparisons of other consoles, any suggestions for which? I could do PCE if the emulator allows RGB.

I'm assuming this is on a PAL Wii?

[crazydean]

I'm assuming this is on a PAL Wii?

Your assumption would be incorrect! It turns out that the reason NTSC Wii's can't output RGB is a software block. Here is what I have gotten to output RGB so far:
SNES9X GX for SNES
FCE Ultra GX for NES
USB Loader GX for Wii
Nintendont through USB Loader GX for Gamecube

I haven't been able to get anything else to output RGB yet, but I may just not be finding the proper menus.

PS: Apparently, you can change your Wii's region to PAL to run RGB without using emulator's menus, but it's possible to brick your console during the process.

[Joe Redifer]

Wii RGB is fine for emulators you load onto the system after softmodding it, but not for Virtual Console stuff (blurriness built into the emulators) and not for actual Wii games (can't get 480p). For SNES games I'm not surprised that it would look better than an actual SNES, since the SNES kinda sucks at RGB. It improved a little with later releases of the system but even there it's still a little blurry.

[SignOfZeta]

I should specify that I was actually talking about YPbPr, not RGB. This cable was like $15 new for the OEM, will look identical to RGB.

[Joe Redifer]

Some people say Gamecube component is better than Gamecube games played on the Wii vs component. I need to test this some day. Maybe people are just trying to justify their expensive cables?

[crazydean]

Wii RGB is fine for emulators you load onto the system after softmodding it, but not for Virtual Console stuff (blurriness built into the emulators) and not for actual Wii games (can't get 480p). For SNES games I'm not surprised that it would look better than an actual SNES, since the SNES kinda sucks at RGB. It improved a little with later releases of the system but even there it's still a little blurry.

My BVM monitor won't display beyond 480i, so there's no reason for me to use component cables anyway. As for SNES games, I'm on an RGB modded mini which looks nearly identical to the Wii RGB output. However, the mini looks much better than a standard SNES, anyway. One of the advantages of using RGB for me, is that I already own a SCART switch which allows me to add it right no there.

I don't have any component cables for the Wii, but maybe I'll buy some and do some A/B testing with the RGB.

[Johnpv]

Some people say Gamecube component is better than Gamecube games played on the Wii vs component. I need to test this some day. Maybe people are just trying to justify their expensive cables?

It's true, but the difference isn't huge.  http://retrorgb.com/gamecubevswii.html

[GohanX]

Some people say Gamecube component is better than Gamecube games played on the Wii vs component. I need to test this some day. Maybe people are just trying to justify their expensive cables?

I've had Gamecube component cables in the past, and I can confirm that the Cube component is quite a bit sharper than the Wii. The Wii still looks pretty good IMO, and although I'd rather play  Gamecube games on a Gamecube I'm not about to pony up the current going price for the Cube cables.

Also, SNES games do look better on Wii VC through component than RGB on a real SNES IMO. The image is much sharper than even a modded SNES Jr. I wouldn't blame anyone who preferred playing it on the Wii compared to a real SNES. Personally, I don't care that the SNES is a little blurry, it still looks better than the RF I grew up on.

[mickcris]

The gcvideo ezpaks should be our soon.  Not sure how this will effect the official cable price, but component will have a cheaper option.  I have an HDMI ezpak on order.
http://www.badassconsoles.com/gcvideo-1/

[Joe Redifer]

SNES games do look better on Wii VC through component than RGB on a real SNES IMO

Disagree. Virtual Console games put a low or high pass filter that doesn't need to be there resulting in a blurrier (and often darker) image than a real SNES. An emulator running on a hacked Wii, however, will yield a much better image.

It's true, but the difference isn't huge.  http://retrorgb.com/gamecubevswii.html

I will do a direct-capture test sometime. The results will be much more trustworthy than pictures taken from a screen.

[SignOfZeta]

I disagree with that. Everything recorded with a capture device has the "look" of that capture device in the exact same way it would have the look of any display you run it through. It would be far more scientific to use a capture device since there is more control in the experiment (and no camera or lighting issues to worry about) but I'm not sure what it can actually prove.

I mean...so it's darker. So I turn up the gain on my TV. Is that actually a problem? Gamma is the sort of thing that turns up as "a problem" when you are using a capture device and leaving the settings the same between two SNES/emu but in the real world you just calibrate your display. Minus %2 gamma is irrelevant if you can just dial it up.

[CrackTiger]

The difference between the no-filter hacked and regular N64 games is hard to believe. It is noticeable in every pixel on my crt, even after transcoded from RGB to component.

When I watch the video streaming on my PC as it's being captured (upscaled with a framemeister), the difference is still noticeable, but the filter-hack footage isn't anywhere near as sharp. When I watch the video after it's captured by my elgato HD60(?), you can still make out differences between the hacked and regular games, but the filter-removed footage has already lost all of the detail that transforms N64 games from unplayable to actually nuce looking.

Mixing footage in the video editor I use reduces the clarity further, but the point is that you cannot appreciate the video quality of fixed N64 games with an RGB mod unless you're watching it in person.

[SignOfZeta]

I agree. All of this goes double for when you are capturing composite. There are so many ways to unpack a composite signal and many of the flaws are actively reduced by your capture device, compression codecs, etc, some are increased.

I have a pretty nice Laserdisc setup these days and while I've done a few capture tests and stuff to demonstrate it (LD is very very poorly understood by and large, trying to put some quality videos online) nothing compares to sitting in front of my TV.

[Joe Redifer]

The only capture device that have a "look" would be a shitty capture device. When I get around to doing it it will be captured Uncompressed. It won't be crushed by MPEG (the encoders will often give it that look you speak of). It will be the best possible method to do an A-B comparison. If you wanna turn up the "gain" on your TV that's fine.

Anyway I was mistaken about the Virtual Console. The SNES seems to be fairly decent, but the Turbo and the NES VC's are pretty nasty. I have never purchased a VC game myself. Wait... that's untrue. I bought Super Metroid for like 19 cents when they had a one day sale on my Wii U.

Eff it, I'm gonna do that Wii/GC comparison now. Be back later.

[Joe Redifer]

Well, strike that. My Wii is soft-modded and does not seem to be able to boot Gamecube games. Is there any easy way to revert my Wii back to default? I've never cared for it since it's been soft-modded and it's always been a chore to use.

[ClodBusted]

What Wii do you got? The RVL-001 (with GameCube support) or RVL-101 (without GameCube support, no memory card slots, no GC controller ports)?

Also I've read posts on PCEFX about the Wii U virtual console claimed to be inferior in terms of lag and other technical things to the Wii's virtual console.

[SignOfZeta]

The only capture device that have a "look" would be a shitty capture device. When I get around to doing it it will be captured Uncompressed. It won't be crushed by MPEG (the encoders will often give it that look you speak of). It will be the best possible method to do an A-B comparison.

There is no capture device that doesn't put its own spin on the signal. Just as every TV is different, so is every capture device. Well, there are only so many chipsets out there so obviously every model isn't unique, but my point is that you can't have a device that doesn't shape the image in its own way. Quality has nothing to do with it. Such a thing doesn't and cannot exist. If we were talking about HDMI, no problem, but with digitizing analog video is a super complex process that converts one thing into something else completely. There's no way to not put a stank on it of some sort.

[GohanX]

The gcvideo ezpaks should be our soon.  Not sure how this will effect the official cable price, but component will have a cheaper option.  I have an HDMI ezpak on order.
http://www.badassconsoles.com/gcvideo-1/

This is awesome!

[Joe Redifer]

What Wii do you got? The RVL-001 (with GameCube support) or RVL-101 (without GameCube support, no memory card slots, no GC controller ports)?

The normal Wii of course. It played GC games just fine before the h4ck. I wish I didn't h4ck it because there is literally nothing of interest for me with a h4ck3d Wii. I don't care about emulators.

There is no capture device that doesn't put its own spin on the signal.

Even so, both the GC and Wii captures would receive the exact same "stank" and it would be a much fairer comparison than taking a picture of the screen with a shitty point-and-shoot camera with lots of moire.

[Groover]

I didn't know that if you softmod a Wii you can no longer play GameCube games from Disk. That sucks. I'm not sure I understand why that is. Well there is another reason for me not to mod my Wii. I mean I don't care to play emulators on it as well. I Already play gamecube games on my Gamecube via component and I play wii games on my WiiU.

[Joe Redifer]

I restored GC compatibility. Modding breaks it, but if you reinstall the proper Nintendo MIOS it becomes restored.

[Joe Redifer]

Here are my results. There is very little to no difference between Wii and Gamecube component video. Imperceptable in fact.

Here is Wave Race Blue Storm:
joeredifer .com/crap/Waverace100.png

This image was captured via component video cables in 480p on both systems, recorded at 10-bit YUV Uncompressed (no MPEG steps) and uploaded as an uncompressed PNG file. This is 100% normal size of the video, no scaling.

Here is a 400% scaled version of Wave Race Blue Storm:
joeredifer .com/crap/Waverace400.png

Same techniques as above, but this was scaled 400% using nearest neighbor, no scaling interpolation to muddy things up. Again an uncompressed PNG.

Bottom line: People pay too much for GameCube Component cables when the Wii gives an identical result for all intents and purposes.

[DragonmasterDan]

Bottom line: People pay too much for GameCube Component cables when the Wii gives an identical result for all intents and purposes.

If they're using it to play GameCube games I agree. But the main reason a lot of people still use their GameCube is for the GBA player. I'm enough of a videophile to where I imported a PAL GameCube to use RGB with the GameBoy player (via the GameBoy interface homebrew app) on my PVM.

[Joe Redifer]

If you're using the GB Player then component video is overkill unless you use something like Swiss to force 240p. There's also another player that can be loaded from the memory card that can do the same thing. In that case yeah, component cables are great! EDIT: Yeah that one you mentioned: GameBoy Interface is what I was talking about. I don't see any improvements in that vs the GameBoy Player disc forced to 240 though.

[DragonmasterDan]

If you're using the GB Player then component video is overkill unless you use something like Swiss to force 240p. There's also another player that can be loaded from the memory card that can do the same thing. In that case yeah, component cables are great! EDIT: Yeah that one you mentioned: GameBoy Interface is what I was talking about. I don't see any improvements in that vs the GameBoy Player disc forced to 240 though.

Yep,
I do notice a difference between the RGB video from the PAL Cube using Game Boy Interface at 240P compared to an NTSC GameCube using svideo (I don't own the component cables). I actually bought the PAL GC, a PAL SD card loader and a SCART cable for it for far less than simply buying an NTSC component cable would have cost.

[Groover]

I agree the difference can be not that big some games may show it more. I think it is the slightly fussier image in some games. Also I agree the Gameboy player is a nice differentiator between the Wii and Gamecube. I am also playing these on an HDTV so the Framemiester is upscaling the image. I havn't messaed with Swiss yet. I have used the GameBoy Interface and it is much better as the picture on the gameboy player is much more fuzzy. For me with all the work going into playing GBA games the Player sucks after going with component cables and XRGB mini to end up with a fuzzy picture. The GBI is great. I do have to try out Swiss to force 240p though.

[GohanX]

For gba on tv I just use an emulator on the Wii that outputs 240p. It is fantastic.

[bartre]

There was a rather intense breakdown of this topic on shmups:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51789

the TL;DR of it is this.
The Gamecube component out *is* better, but not by anything 99% of people are going to notice.

Between that and the emulation capabilities of the wii, there's 0 reason to shell out for GCN cables.
Bought my wii component cables from monoprice a few years back, and they've been amazing.

[GohanX]

I wish Monoprice still sold those cables. Their Wii and PS3 component cables were cheap and among the best out there.