Remember that Tengai Makyo Ziria translation project?

[SamIAm]

Time for yet another translation thread.

Esperknight told me recently that translator Tom (not to be confused with hacker Tom) seems to be MIA. Tom had wanted to do the translating for the PCE Tengai Makyo games, and you might remember him from the Ziria translation project announced...was it several years ago?

Actually, Tom has already finished two other Tengai games on other systems, and I think he basically wanted to be the Tengai Makyo guy. He actually requested me to let him do Tengai Makyo 2 even though I had already started it, and I gave it to him. He seemed to be pretty passionate about it, for one thing. For another, TM2's script is an utter goliath, so it was kind of a relief for me. I don't know where he went or if he will be back, but it's too bad he's gone.

Anyway, after not hearing from him for a long time, Esperknight sent me the script and toolchain he made for it, and lo and behold...the hacking side is mostly done. How much really remains, I can't say, but I was stunned to see that that there is a complete insertion system in place and text displaying in the game. Since this is a 2.0 game, I think it's all around much easier to work with.

The English translation, however, is only about 5% complete.

Now, I've got a lot going on at the moment, and I fear taking on too much and not getting anything done. But I think it would lift Esperknight's spirits to see the work he put into this pay off, and I was just saying that I would love to be in a position where the only thing in the way of a finished project is the J-E translation. So, I guess I ought to take a good look at the game itself. It's not so huge, assuming that the current dump has all of the text.

I can't promise anything yet, but if anyone else wants to help with this...for example, playing through the game to give us a savestate library...please let me know!

[NightWolve]

Good to hear!

[cjameslv]

...

I can't promise anything yet, but if anyone else wants to help with this...for example, playing through the game to give us a savestate library...please let me know!

That i can help with. PM me the details.

[NecroPhile]

Woo-hoo!  The more translations the merrier, especially when it's a goody like Ziria. 

[CrackTiger]

I'm curious about what the other two Tengai Makyou games are that Tom translated. I'm assuming that one is Zero (does it actually work in emulators yet?) Did he do an unofficial translation of Shinden? If Namida has been done, that would be very impressive.

[esteban]

STATUS: I am delighted to hear the promise of more progress. Even if I have to wait a few years, it will be well worth it!

[Opethian]

I remember all too well

[seieienbu]

Fantastic news.  I've wanted to play these games in English for a very long time.

[dshadoff]

This is great news !

I recall giving whatever info I had to EsperKnight, but didn't expect a full insertion system to exist before the bulk of the script.  Good Stuff !

As I mentioned to NightWolve for the other projects, I'm happy to chip in whatever information I have, and to assist with hacking (and play testing) when I have time, but I won't be able to take the lead in any area.  But hopefully my contributions could cut the time and effort.

Probably a good place to start is to test the script inserter - the obvious first spot would be the subtitles which show over top of the opening cinema.  Then, the dialogue in the first town, and the whole bestiary/weapons and equipment/status menus, and then it's largely a text/edit/playtest exercise.

-Dave

[shubibiman]

Hi Dave !

Nice to see you post here and see you're still around in the PCE hacking scene ;)

Have you had time to work on the Dead of the Brain script lately or is it something you've totally given up ?

[deubeul]

I'm curious about what the other two Tengai Makyou games are that Tom translated. I'm assuming that one is Zero (does it actually work in emulators yet?) Did he do an unofficial translation of Shinden? If Namida has been done, that would be very impressive.

Should be the GBA opus, Oriental Blue.

[Sarumaru]

Wow... Tengai Makyou is one of my all-time faves. I have collected every game and I would LOVE to play this in English. I was so excited to read this, I piddled.

[deubeul]

Same for me buddy, I don't want to die before having done TMII. And IV.

[dshadoff]

Hi Dave !

Nice to see you post here and see you're still around in the PCE hacking scene ;)

Have you had time to work on the Dead of the Brain script lately or is it something you've totally given up ?

Hi Shubibiman !

I haven't had time, but I also haven't given up.

Actually, I had an idea while discussing with NightWolve about Emerald Dragon: since the main issue with the insert was that the print function had a small but progressive bug, I was thinking about trying to 'avoid' the bug rather than fix it.

That is to say, force the variable-width font definition to specify that all characters are 8 pixels wide.  In that case, a much simpler path would be taken through the code.  It might prevent the display corruption, and allow more progress on the insert.

If this works, the decision about variable-versus-fixed-width font, and what font looks best, can be deferred until later when the insert is more play-tested.

When I get a chance, I'll try to look at this again - at least to see if this tweak will help.  Maybe in a week or two, we'll have an answer.

[NecroPhile]

Fuck yeah!  I'd love to see Dead of the Brain completed; it has some awesome art work, but I'd like to get more of the story.

[shubibiman]

Thanks for all the details Dave ;)

[SamIAm]

Sheesh.

Most of the dialogue in Tengai Makyo games is basically your ordinary modern Japanese, but the subject matter can be pretty esoteric to non-Japanese people, and for some lines there just aren't any great translation options.

There's one scene where Ziria (that's the main character's name) is at an inn where some haiku poets are having a gathering, and some of them tell you their poems. Looking up an archaic word, I found out that one poem in the game is a reference to an actual poem written in the 18th century about mating frogs. Specifically, the poet is cheering on the weaker male frogs during what is basically a springtime frog orgy.

And this is at the heart of a joke, which is all contained in a just a couple of text boxes. It's not an amazing joke or anything, it's just like "Times are tough, but we poets are cheering for you, like we cheer for all living things. [haiku]".

Now, if anyone can come up with a good original haiku to fit this context that preserves the intention of the original poem, I would be glad to credit you in the readme as "Frog Sex Haiku Composer".

[Dicer]

Frogs like to have sex
Multiple partners are had
They do not feel shame

[esteban]

Weak frog wants to cum
We poets want frog to cum
...and Ziria, too

[seieienbu]

A weak frog wants in
survival of the fittest
I wish him good luck

I took something of a 16 bit Nintendo approach to this and rather than make it explicit.  For the 3rd line, I think "god speed" sounds better than "good luck" but that particular idiom seems out of place in a Japanese Haiku for some reason...

[dshadoff]

In springtime, frogs are mating in muck,
but the weak ones are down on their luck.
Though I tried for Haiku,
I guess a limerick will do...
And to the weak frogs, I say "Have a good ... screw."

[NightWolve]

Dave wins I think!

[seieienbu]

Agreed.  That's quite clever.

[dshadoff]

Closer to the original meaning (but still a limerick):

It's springtime, and creatures will mate,
So their bloodlines don't meet a cruel fate,
The dominant do,
And the weaker should too....
Go on, get some - before it's too late !!!

It is possible that a limerick among haiku could create a moment of fun.  Not sure whether it would be suitable for the situation though.

[SamIAm]

The original poem by Kobayashi Issa from the 18th century, translated straight and without forcing the 5-7-5 structure, is like this:

やせがえる 負けるな一茶 これにあり
Weak frogs
You must not give up. Issa
is here for you

So it's kind of subtle, and that's something I'd like to be reflected in the translation. A lot of Japanese people have no idea what the original poem is really talking about until they research it. I might put the original in as-is and credit the actual poet, and leave it to the curious to google it.


Alternatively, this is something I came up with:

Despair not, weak frogs
for courage is rewarded
with springtime peaches

I like this because peaches are a very common metaphor in Japanese poetry for...well, I'm sure you can guess. Also, it doubles as a kind of encouragement for Ziria, which I think is ultimately the point of the dialogue.

I do like the limerick idea. Granted, they're so long that it would have to be literally one line per text box. Anyway, there are several poems, so I might keep that idea in mind for another one.

[esteban]

Weak frog wants peaches
We poets want frog peaches
...and Ziria, too

[dshadoff]

So it's kind of subtle, and that's something I'd like to be reflected in the translation. A lot of Japanese people have no idea what the original poem is really talking about until they research it. I might put the original in as-is and credit the actual poet, and leave it to the curious to google it.


Alternatively, this is something I came up with:

Despair not, weak frogs
for courage is rewarded
with springtime peaches

I like it... it reminds me of the "Frog and Peach" by Peter Cook and Dudley Moore.

[Arjak]

The original poem by Kobayashi Issa from the 18th century, translated straight and without forcing the 5-7-5 structure, is like this:

やせがえる 負けるな一茶 これにあり
Weak frogs
You must not give up. Issa
is here for you

So it's kind of subtle, and that's something I'd like to be reflected in the translation. A lot of Japanese people have no idea what the original poem is really talking about until they research it. I might put the original in as-is and credit the actual poet, and leave it to the curious to google it.


Alternatively, this is something I came up with:

Despair not, weak frogs
for courage is rewarded
with springtime peaches

I like this because peaches are a very common metaphor in Japanese poetry for...well, I'm sure you can guess. Also, it doubles as a kind of encouragement for Ziria, which I think is ultimately the point of the dialogue.

I really like your localization of the haiku, Sam. It gets the point across while still being a bit subtle and also maintaining a Japanese flavor with the peach metaphor. I think keeping the general feeling of the original script is important, so I wouldn't want it to be too on-the-nose and crass, or to have the whole mood changed for the sake of a cheap joke.

I do like the limerick idea. Granted, they're so long that it would have to be literally one line per text box. Anyway, there are several poems, so I might keep that idea in mind for another one.

While suddenly throwing in a limerick would be funny, I think it would alter the mood too much.  I assume most people nowadays know what a haiku is, so that's not exactly a localization issue, but more importantly, it would disturb the Japanese flavor of the story and setting, which from what I understand, is a key element of the series' identity. I don't know...Unless you can think of some clever way to do it that fits in with the original script, I'm against the limerick idea. It just feels a little too...Working Designs to me.

[SamIAm]

Thanks for the positive feedback.

I basically agree about the tone, and I don't think I would bust out a limerick unless one of the other poems is truly outlandish, like not even a haiku.

They all seem to be based on real haikus, though. Ever hear these ones? They are about three famous Japanese generals, and as a metaphor for their characters, the generals are talking to a cuckoo bird that won't sing:

織田信長 Nobunaga：
「鳴かぬなら、殺してしまえ　ホトトギス」 "If you do not sing for me, I'll kill you."
豊臣秀吉 Hideyoshi：
「鳴かぬなら、鳴かせてみせよう　ホトトギス」 "If you do not sing for me, I'll make you sing."
徳川家康 Ieyasu：
「鳴かぬなら、鳴くまで待とう　ホトトギス」 "If you do not sing for me, I'll wait till you sing."


In the game, it's a joke like "If you do not sing for me, I will wait for the nightingale."

EDIT: Ugh, the next one has a reference to a famous enka song. I might use an English song as a reference. Quick, what is the corniest, most well known love song in English that you know?

[seieienbu]

And IIiiiiiiiiiIIIIiiiiiiiiIIiiiiiiiiii, will always love yoooooOOOoooooOOooooOOooouuuuu

[Dicer]

Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down...

[NecroPhile]

Quick, what is the corniest, most well known love song in English that you know?

If by 'corniest' you mean 'most awesomist evah!', then Sea of Love would be my pick.  Keep it Turbob!

[SamIAm]

You know what occurs to me: enka music in Japan is kind of analogous to country music in America. It's rooted in tradition, nostalgic, enjoyed by older people more than younger, the contents of the lyrics tend to follow certain storytelling patterns, etc.

Any cheesy country love songs that are instantly recognizable?

[spenoza]

Think of the stuff that was on the Lawrence Welk show. That stuff is American Enka.

[CrackTiger]

You know what occurs to me: enka music in Japan is kind of analogous to country music in America. It's rooted in tradition, nostalgic, enjoyed by older people more than younger, the contents of the lyrics tend to follow certain storytelling patterns, etc.

Any cheesy country love songs that are instantly recognizable?

And IIiiiiiiiiiIIIIiiiiiiiiIIiiiiiiiiii, will always love yoooooOOOoooooOOooooOOooouuuuu

-Dolly Parton

[SignOfZeta]

Islands in the Stream. It's like enka in that truckers love it and it's terrible, despite its creators knowing better.

[dshadoff]

I basically agree about the tone, and I don't think I would bust out a limerick unless one of the other poems is truly outlandish, like not even a haiku.

In my defence, I never knew enough Japanese to understand the game well enough to get a feel for the tone of the game.  Lately, with quite a lot of Japanese study under my belt, I may be willing to try to play the game in Japanese to see if I can catch that tone.

They all seem to be based on real haikus, though. Ever hear these ones? They are about three famous Japanese generals, and as a metaphor for their characters, the generals are talking to a cuckoo bird that won't sing:

織田信長 Nobunaga：
「鳴かぬなら、殺してしまえ　ホトトギス」 "If you do not sing for me, I'll kill you."
豊臣秀吉 Hideyoshi：
「鳴かぬなら、鳴かせてみせよう　ホトトギス」 "If you do not sing for me, I'll make you sing."
徳川家康 Ieyasu：
「鳴かぬなら、鳴くまで待とう　ホトトギス」 "If you do not sing for me, I'll wait till you sing."

In the game, it's a joke like "If you do not sing for me, I will wait for the nightingale."

Yeah, learned that one a year or two ago - probably everybody in Japan knows it, and anybody studying Japanese at around a JLPT N2 level should be aware of it.

But your translation is first-person, and is missing the crucial point about the object being a pet bird; the sense of the translation (though certainly not poetic) should be more like:
"If he encounters (or possesses ?) a nightingale (known for its pleasant song) which doesn't sing, he'll kill it" /
"If he encounters a nightingale which doesn't sing, he'll try to force it to sing" /
"If he encounters a nightingale which doesn't sing, he'll wait until it sings"

[SamIAm]

I don't know about the pet bird aspect or any of the deeper history, but I can guarantee you that 殺してしまえ, 鳴かせてみせよう, and 鳴くまで待とう are forms that are only used in the first person. Maybe there are alternate haikus that are third person, but those lines I posted are definitely aren't. There's also no word that means "possesses" or "encounters".

Also, not to nitpick, but the original poem is about a cuckoo bird, not a nightingale. The nightingale is only in a joke in the game.

Anyway, about the enka joke. The setup is like this:

Old guy says "Only those who love haiku above all else can appreciate the fine Japanese aesthetic in poems like this one that I just wrote:

Departing springtime [world's most generic haiku/tanka line]
I've come from so far away [lyric from that enka song]
To Hakodate [ditto]

So an annoying song lyric that fits the 7-5 part of the 5-7-5 structure would be great.

"And I will always love you" is seven, and that's followed soon after by "My darling, you, mmm" so that's pretty decent. I like the instantly recognizable aspect of it.

On the other hand, the original enka lyric fits better than I first imagined it would, so I might stick with that. Decisions, decisions.

[esteban]

Departing springtime
I've peaches from far away
Ziria does, too

[seieienbu]

Reading your translation reminds me of "I Ran" by Flock of Seagulls.  It's a shame that it doesn't quite fit as a Haiku...

Writing it as:

I ran all night and day, I
Couldn't get away

fits 7 then 5, but seems way more awkward than it does as 6 then 6.  Blarg.

[dshadoff]

There's also no word that means "possesses" or "encounters".

Also, not to nitpick, but the original poem is about a cuckoo bird, not a nightingale. The nightingale is only in a joke in the game.

This is a great example of something difficult to translate.
HOTOTOGISU is the problem here.  In your first translation, you ignored it, with the effect was that the reader was who was expected to sing (which was my primary concern).

True, it isn't a nightingale - but it is a bird valued for its song, and was domesticated for same (at least in that era), which is why I chose nightingale as the analog.  "Cuckoo", while technically more correct (genetically), doesn't come close to conveying the fact that the song was valued by people (at least in English).

So, no matter how you cut it, you'd have to (a) painstakingly explain background, (b) take liberties in localizing it, or (c) lose the essence of the original.

Translation is hard, but translation of poetry is VERY hard, and translation of poetry from a different era is CRAZY hard.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even close to your level of Japanese, and I'm not trying to to criticize - merely trying to discuss the merits of a particular choice of words.

[SamIAm]

"I would walk five hundred miles
And I would walk five...

...Er, something like that"

Hmm.

EDIT:

This is a great example of something difficult to translate.
HOTOTOGISU is the problem here.  In your first translation, you ignored it, with the effect was that the reader was who was expected to sing (which was my primary concern).

Well, I said in the note above the poems that the generals were talking to a cuckoo bird. I just omitted that part from each line because I wanted to get to the point and explain the joke.

I don't think this is really so difficult or complicated. A straight translation without 5-7-5 is simply "If you do not sing, I shall wait for you to sing, cuckoo bird".

Take a liberty and stick "little" in the third line and there you go, a decent 5-7-5 rendition.

Does it lack a little context about the pet songbird aspect? Sure. But then again, so do the Japanese poems. I did a little research, and it turns out that the poems come from a book written around 1820, and the original poems are part of a larger parable in which this particular information is explained before the poems appear.

When used on its own/in a reference, "Et tu, Brute?" probably shouldn't be translated as "You're betraying me too, Brutus?" regardless of how informed the reader is. Sometimes, it's best to leave things in their raw state and leave it to the reader to educate themselves about the context. I think this would be one of those times. Besides, the focus isn't even on the bird, but rather the attitude of the general, and that comes through fine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even close to your level of Japanese, and I'm not trying to to criticize - merely trying to discuss the merits of a particular choice of words.

It's all good. That's all I'm doing, too.

[esteban]

ASIDE: I did not want to make a serious post in this thread, but I will. The original title for this post was "I Know Why The Caged Cuckoo Sings"



THE MUCH-MALIGNED CUCKOO

The two approaches (cuckoo vs. nightingale) suggested by SamIAm and dshadoff perfectly illustrate (to me) the nuances of the localization process.

One, brief moment in the game has generated substantial discussion...and, to be honest, this moment will hold much more meaning to me during the actual game, simply because I know the backstory behind it.

Personally, of the two birds, I have greater reverence for a nightingale, since the cuckoo (and the humble loon!) have had their reputations tarnished by countless cartoons (and the occasional sugary breakfast cereal). 

Honoring the original Japanese  (cuckoo as soprano) clashes with vapid pop-cultural associations (cuckoo as vaudevillian).

I honestly don't know which approach best "honors" the original intent of Tengai Makyou...but is difficult for me to overlook the cultural baggage the cuckoo is burdened with.

FURTHER ASIDE: I will never have the opportunity to discuss this again (here at pcefx), so I can't help but throw in one of my favorite lines from The Third Man:

Harry Lime: "You know what the fellow said – in Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."

Now, this is factually/historically inaccurate, but that doesn't matter. It fits the character so well (since he is a master of manipulation).

IN CONCLUSION: The much-maligned cuckoo can't catch a break.

/aside


You may continue, as you were.

[SamIAm]

All this time translating old video game lines will be worth it if I can just challenge some cultural perceptions of cuckoo birds. 


Anyway, the kooky old poet in the game used two birds. Since it's based on some of the most famous haikus in existence, I'm sticking the cuckoo in there. Maybe:

"Little cuckoo bird
if you do not sing for me,
the nightingale might"

Take out the cuckoo, and it's a lot harder to recognize the association with the real haiku. Also, I like adding "might" because the original poems are so strong and threatening. It's a funny contrast, at least to me.

I should make one thing clear, though: the joke in the game is actually not even like what I've explained at all. The joke in the game is simply a bizarre combination of references, like saying "To be or not to be...it was the worst of times." In the game, it's "Oh, nightingale...I will wait until you sing, cuckoo bird". It's like he's drunk. But I found this too incoherent, so I made up my own thing.

But that brings me to the real dilemma...neither way is really funny to English speakers. Not unless you actually know the original poem. Being funny really is the line's first purpose, and it would be a shame to lose that.

So, do I preserve the original reference and poem as-is and just say "welp, that's what it says"?

Do I tweak it a bit, as I have done so far, so that it's at least coherent and hopefully funny to people who know the original story of the three generals and their cuckoos?

Do I make up a new poem that's entirely different, possibly involving booze? I haven't seen any mention of booze at this haiku gathering, but some of the other haikus are goofy enough that it almost seems implied.

Or do I come up with a new poem that still references those original poems but stands on its own as being funny? Is that even possible?


Finally...The old guy doesn't only say this haiku. In the lines before, he says he would like to dedicate his haiku to world peace. I could play off that, and make a haiku like:

"I can wait for peace
longer than Ieyasu
can wait for cuckoos"

It's not wacky-funny at all, but it's somehow still faithful, and it works well with the context otherwise. It also does a lot more to provoke someone to investigate the story of the generals.

Thank god most of the rest of the lines in the game are like "Remember to equip your armor!"

[dshadoff]

"Little cuckoo bird
if you do not sing for me,
the nightingale might"

Take out the cuckoo, and it's a lot harder to recognize the association with the real haiku. Also, I like adding "might" because the original poems are so strong and threatening. It's a funny contrast, at least to me.

So, if I understand correctly then, the original (famous) haikus are not actually spoken in this section of the game; merely referenced ?

That would be pretty harsh - expecting an audience to recognize a foreign cultural reference which isn't even included in the script.

If they were part of the script, the audience could at least catch on to the fact that there are several variations of the same haiku, even if they didn't get the reference to historic characters.  You might still have to include a warning to read carefully, as some people may try to read it too quickly and think that it's mere repetition.

I have another question - is this episode referenced later in the game ?
If it is, you're pretty much stuck with trying to keep a lot of things as they are.

If it isn't, you can have some more leeway... and this can go in several potential directions.

I should make one thing clear, though: the joke in the game is actually not even like what I've explained at all. The joke in the game is simply a bizarre combination of references, like saying "To be or not to be...it was the worst of times." In the game, it's "Oh, nightingale...I will wait until you sing, cuckoo bird". It's like he's drunk. But I found this too incoherent, so I made up my own thing.

But that brings me to the real dilemma...neither way is really funny to English speakers. Not unless you actually know the original poem. Being funny really is the line's first purpose, and it would be a shame to lose that.

There are more than enough English-language referential taglines which could be applied to produce humor, if the core idea is an old man rambling in memorable but mismatched quotes.  Some combinations could be funny, but the visual scene has to match.

Are you able to make a youtube video of what's going on ?  Maybe crowdsource on nicovideo ?

So, do I preserve the original reference and poem as-is and just say "welp, that's what it says"?

I can't say that I am a supporter of this.  It would at least require translator's notes, and that would detract from the game itself.

Do I tweak it a bit, as I have done so far, so that it's at least coherent and hopefully funny to people who know the original story of the three generals and their cuckoos?

Better, but still serves a very limited audience.

Do I make up a new poem that's entirely different, possibly involving booze? I haven't seen any mention of booze at this haiku gathering, but some of the other haikus are goofy enough that it almost seems implied.

Or do I come up with a new poem that still references those original poems but stands on its own as being funny? Is that even possible?

While I would love to enjoy the original game in all its splendor, it requires an investment which is just not something the average person wants to commit to.  This is a hard decision, but at least this choice (or rather, either of these two choices) is a compromise which allows the game to reach a wider audience in its new language.

Given the choice, I would say that if there was already a pattern of cuckoo-related poems, this would have to be yet another.  But if they weren't all variations of the same original set, then either would be fine.

But in any case, this section is probably among the most difficult localization that exists.  Many professional translation efforts would try to cut the section out, to avoid the hard work.

Finally...The old guy doesn't only say this haiku. In the lines before, he says he would like to dedicate his haiku to world peace. I could play off that, and make a haiku like:

"I can wait for peace
longer than Ieyasu
can wait for cuckoos"

It's not wacky-funny at all, but it's somehow still faithful, and it works well with the context otherwise. It also does a lot more to provoke someone to investigate the story of the generals.

I like this one.  Not sure how wide the appeal is, though.

[SamIAm]

That's right, the old man does not say the original poem. He says うぐいすや・・　なくまでまとう　ホトトギス.

うぐいす means nightingale, and the や is basically just like "Oh". It's a very generic-sounding first line. I looked for a specific reference, but there are too many poems that start like this and not one that is particularly famous as far as I could see.

This is not a "scene", so much as a room full of guys at an inn that you can talk to one-by-one.

I think that what I do here will depend on how many more instances there are of Japanese references that Japanese people generally get and westerners generally don't. If it's only in this area, then I might twist in some English references (like "I will always love you") and be done with it. If it happens again, though, I might make some translators notes. I know that that's cumbersome and all, but this isn't some generic fantasy RPG that happens to have a Japanese reference because it was made in Japan. This is bloody Tengai Makyo. It's supposed to be full of Japanese stuff.

I mean, if there was film about Renaissance Europe that made a Shakespeare joke and it was being translated to Japanese, I would want to see the joke left in there. If it needs tweaking, fine, but there should be a Shakespeare joke there. There comes a point where if some audience members don't get it, it's their problem.

Plus, as a practical matter, we're not dealing with a general western audience; we're dealing with a small and dedicated hobbyist fanbase, of whom I think we can ask to come with us on these things. The choice that most translators seem to make with movies is actually just to toss the joke (have you ever watched a Hollywood movie with Japanese subtitles?), but this always seemed like a lowest-common-denominator choice to me.

Not to mention, throwing an original joke out completely and making up a new joke is how we got Bill Clinton references in Lunar 2.

[dshadoff]

That sounds like a fair idea.

One more thing to keep in mind is whether the information disseminated in this area is used later - especially to obtain a power-up.  But in most RPGs of that area, merely speaking to the right person would probably be the trigger.

[SamIAm]

My guess is that this is just a one-off kind of funny area in the game.

The next haiku actually contains a reference to the Man'yoshu. Oh boy.

EDIT: Ooh, the one after that is a reference to this one! A haiku classic!

古池や
蛙飛び込む
水の音

Donald Keene's translation:
The ancient pond
A frog leaps in
The sound of the water.

Also, Reginald Horace Blyth's translation:
The old pond.
A frog jumps in.
Plop!

[NightWolve]

Hey Sam, I think I should warn you about something. I've made great progress with Emerald Dragon so the project can go forward with now having a good handle on it and with David's recompression code from Ys IV working! But, in working on the first text block, I see that we will have problems fitting in your translated results. The LZSS text codec will not cut it for the amount of English text that you wrote...

When I started, the text block compressed ~4,000 bytes in excess of the space allocated (the allocated block is 4,175 bytes, and it needed ~8000 bytes initially!). This is 101 strings, and so the last 40 were blanked out to "T\pause\0" temporarily so that I could shrink it and recompress it to fit, just get something working and visible for testing/learning! The process since then has been editing your results down, examples as follow:

** Logical trimming with context. She's standing right in front of the town, next to the Town of Ulwan sign.

[07]Young Girl<\r>
No, I'm not Tamryn.<\p> If<\r>
you're looking for her, you<\r>
might try up in the Town of<\r>
Ulwan.<\p><\0>

[07]Young Girl<\r>
Ulwan is just right over<\r>
there.<\p> Just walk straight<\r>
north and you should<\r>
reach it.<\p><\0>

[07]Young Girl<\r>
No, I'm not Tamryn but you<\r>
might find her here.<\p><\0>

[07]Young Girl<\r>
This is the Town of Ulwan.<\r>
Just head north.<\p><\0>

** This idea we're definitely gonna have to do: Since you are talking to the character that's perfectly visible throughout the message boxes that appear, you only need to state their name or description on the first line once!

[07]<YELLOW>Lady<WHITE><brk><\r>
That Heretic <GREEN>Bagin<WHITE> is a<\r>
terrible man.<\p><\0>

[07]<YELLOW>Lady<WHITE><brk><\r>
10 years ago, he left his<\r>
own child somewhere and he<\r>
almost never visits her...<\p><\0>

[07]<YELLOW>Lady<WHITE><brk><\r>
In fact, he won't even let<\r>
her call him "father."<\p><\0>

[07]<YELLOW>Lady<WHITE><brk><\r>
"The Heretics Way" seems to<\r>
mean isolating yourself from<>
the rest of us.<\p><\0>

[07]<YELLOW>Lady<WHITE><brk><\r>
That Heretic <GREEN>Bagin<WHITE> is a<\r>
terrible man.<\p><\0>

[07]10 years ago, he left his<\r>
own child somewhere and he<\r>
almost never visits her...<\p><\0>

[07]In fact, he won't even let<\r>
her call him "father."<\p><\0>

[07]"The Heretics Way" seems to<\r>
mean isolating yourself from<>
the rest of us.<\p><\0>

** The other idea is something your programmer EsperKnight would probably have no problem implementing. It's a basic compression idea from David that can be accomplished with the hacking of the print routine. It's based on the fact that 20-30% of a script is space characters. So, take this example string:

Text Input: "TheBoyWentToTheStore."

With some recoding in the print routine, a simple algorithm is implemented to lowercase and interpret a space character need based on a previous letter being lowercase and the next one being uppercase.

1) Read character.
2) If uppercase, check if previous char is lowercase. If false, print normally. If true, print space character, lowercase the current char, then print it.
3) LOOP/REPEAT TILL CHAR = 0x00.

So, with that basic hack to the print routine, the previous ASCII input is outputted to this:

Display Output: "The boy went to the store."

The LZSS codec will have 20-30% less text to compress as a result of this! Now, I'm not saying for sure this would be needed, you might get away without it, but if you can't, I'm putting the idea out there so you can pass it along to him... I'm not 100% sure I'll need it for Emerald Dragon, I'll find out soon enough, but yeah. It's a good, simple idea and it's possible to implement if enough of the S-JIS processing code in the print routine is overwritten with new code to do it!

The bottomline of my warning here was you need to be thinking about how to say just about the same thing with less words... I dunno if you've ever gotten to the post-editing phase with any of your projects with him, and maybe you just wanted to cross that bridge when you get to it, but just FYI, I have A LOT of trimming to do for this first text block with Emerald Dragon! I don't know if I can implement that space compression idea, I might try when I track down the print routine. I can definitely get rid of the 0x07 font switch code for going to 8x12 mode, and not having to use the code with every string! That'll save me 101 bytes for this 1st text block (7,357 bytes considering the whole script), so that's a start! The biggest savings is of course not repeating the name/description of a character every time they speak! So yeah, things to consider for your other projects. Anyway, stay tuned for an upcoming progress update for ED in my thread!

[SamIAm]

You know, these days Bonknuts in particular has been talking seriously about making a new system card with expanded RAM for translations. You should get in touch with him.

This was just made public recently on krikzz's forums, but there is going to be a v2.0 Turbo Everdrive coming soon that uses RAM instead of flash memory. This just might do the trick. Even if it doesn't, it really shouldn't be too hard to make a new card with 512k of memory. That would make an enormous difference, needless to say.

http://krikzz.com/forum/index.php?topic=2670.0

Thanks for all your work! Editing down the wordcount is always a good idea regardless of how much space is available, and I would certainly be willing to look into that. Anyway, with a little luck, memory itself won't be a problem.