Recommendations for burning a CD-R for testing?

[elmer]

The last time that I needed to do this was for a different console, and the community wisdom at the time was to burn slow, and use a real CD-only burner and not a combined DVD/CD burner.

Using good media like taiyo-yuden was also recommended.

You guys know the limitations of the old early-generation CD drives in the PCE-CD/Duo ... do these recommendations still apply?

What do people do today?

[NecroPhile]

I burn taiyo yudens at 1x on an ancient CDR drive.  You might have to try a few different disc brands before you find one your machine likes, and even then you may find that your machine won't play any CDRs (like my TurboDuo); just burn slow and make sure you're using good rips.

[VenomMacbeth]

This is relevant to my interests.  I'll be burning lots of games for my PCE Duo, once I get it.  Note your findings on what CDRs work best, if you think about it.

[cjameslv]

I burned an iso of 240p test suite on a regular memorex 700mb disc @ 10x (slowest my drive will go). Works good but haven't burned any roms though to test it further.

[BlueBMW]

I've typically used these:

http://www.mam-a-store.com/20110-25.html

Being 650mb seems to help some too.

[cjameslv]

I've typically used these:

http://www.mam-a-store.com/20110-25.html

Being 650mb seems to help some too.

WTF!! Those discs are amazing!

The highlights of said beemer discs:

24 KARAT GOLD CD-R
- Protects data from corrosion and chemical breakdown
- 300+ years longevity
- Best method for preserving valuable content for future technology transfers
- Make sure your photos, videos, and data remain intact for retrieval
- Permanent data storage on a physical disc that cannot be erased
- Recording layer is resistant to UV and heat better than other discs.

[Sarumaru]

You're all PIRATES!!

[elmer]

http://www.mam-a-store.com/20110-25.html

Thanks for the link ... I've traditionally bought from MediaSupply, and that's exactly the disk that they recommend theses days.

Ouch!! Quality CD-R prices have really gone through the roof in the last few years!! 

I picked up 200 taiyo-yuden 650MB disks years ago when I heard that they were going to be discontinued, and it was only $40-per-100 at the time.

So now it's approx $210-per-100 for good quality 650MB disks. I hate to think how much it will be next year.

I definitely agree with using the 650MB CD-R's ... that's the original track density that the old CD drives are designed for.

From what I remember, 700MB disks are technically out-of-spec (by original standards) and will be harder for the old drives to read.

I do have an old beige CD-R (the beige shows it's age by itself), and will dig through old boxes to see if I can unearth an old Plextor drive that I know that I used to own.

Apart from that ... I'm tempted to seek out an old Yamaha AMQR-enabled drive to make things even easier for the old PCE mechanism to read.

[elmer]

You're all PIRATES!!

I posted this is in the "development" section and not in the "discussion" section specifically to avoid that kind of reaction. 

[NightWolve]

He was just messing with ya. It wasn't a serious criticism. Oh yeah, in times like these it's always worth noting that riders gonna riiiiiide, and pirates gonna pirate! Such is the way of the world. ;)

[TurboXray]

There are a few factors involved with running CD-Rs on the system.

 One of them is the type of CD system being used. There are three categories: original CD units (PCE CD brief case model and TGCD model), the original Duo models (US or JP - the blank editions), and the last group (SuperCDROM attachment, and the Duo-R models). The last category, from my experience, pretty much plays any type of CD-R. Even the really crappy ones. The original Duo modes tend to be hit or miss on overall readability. And that leaves the original CD units, which tend to experience the most problems.

 Other factors are the CD-Rs themselves. And of course the last factor being the burner. I've had good luck with DVD/CD combo burners, and I've also had bad luck with them. My laptop burns great CD-Rs, while one of my desktop Blu-ray combo burner isn't so hawt at the job. I've had burners where the lowest speed would produce "coasters", but the next speed up would burn perfectly working discs. You pretty much just have to play with it and figure out what works best.

 On a side note, while I haven't done this myself, I've heard that getting a laser replacement for the original Duo models (black editions) really improves CD-R readability. And one other thing to note; there's something that seems only to appear to happen on the original Duo models: parked laser issue. It's where the unit can't read correctly from the CD-R, so it attempts to scan something at the end of the disc.. but exceeds the length it can move and gets stuck/wedged tight (it can't undo itself). You have to manually turn the axle/screw by hand to get it free. I'm not sure how common this is, but I've personally seen it happen to three different US Duos.

[elmer]

There are a few factors involved with running CD-Rs on the system.

Thanks for the detailed post!

The last category, from my experience, pretty much plays any type of CD-R. Even the really crappy ones. The original Duo modes tend to be hit or miss on overall readability. And that leaves the original CD units, which tend to experience the most problems.

Well, I've got all 3 types of over many years of collecting ... but I expect that I'll probably only need to test on Duo-R and SuperCD, so it's good to know that I can probably "go-cheap" on the test CD-Rs.

Other factors are the CD-Rs themselves.

I seem to remember discussions from back-in-the-day that really old CD drives preferred silver CD-Rs over gold CD-Rs because of their higher reflectivity ... but I have no evidence to support that.

The extra shelf-life of the gold discs is definitely not needed for testing.

It would certainly be nice to be able to use $31/100 "100-year-life" CD-Rs instead of the $210/100 "300-year-life" CD-Rs. 

And of course the last factor being the burner. I've had good luck with DVD/CD combo burners, and I've also had bad luck with them.

That's good to know. I have a cache of Pioneer 115 burners that had a really good reputation ... I'll see how well they do. It would certainly be easier (and prettier) than putting an old beige CD burner in my PC.

Having said which ... I just splurged on a cheap eBay Yamaha AMQR-enabled burner, so I'll give that a test, too.

On a side note, while I haven't done this myself, I've heard that getting a laser replacement for the original Duo models (black editions) really improves CD-R readability.

That's really interesting to hear. I'll give that a try when my old Toys'R'Us-closeout TurboDuo finally needs a capacitor swap.

[NecroPhile]

... when my old Toys'R'Us-closeout TurboDuo finally needs a capacitor swap.

It needs one now.  I wouldn't wait until you hear problems, as that's often too late and the cap goo has already damaged the pcb and/or components.

[elmer]

... when my old Toys'R'Us-closeout TurboDuo finally needs a capacitor swap.

It needs one now.  I wouldn't wait until you hear problems, as that's often too late and the cap goo has already damaged the pcb and/or components.

Oh ... sh*t! I didn't realize that they leaked, I just (mistakenly) thought that they died.

Thanks ... alright, I'd better check on it.

My TurboExpress wouldn't turn on the last time that I checked it ... so I should probably look at that at the same time.

Guess that I'll head over to the repair/mod section.

[NightWolve]

My TurboExpress wouldn't turn on the last time that I checked it ... so I should probably look at that at the same time.

Yeah, that's time for a full recap job. If you're willing to pay more for tantalum capacitors, you can get rid of the buzzing in the audio that was so prominent while you're at it. Talk to Le Steve when you're ready.

[Bernie]

You can get some used caps on the cheap, just ask NW.  ;)

[TurboXray]

I don't know if you're writing your own dev stuff for CD, but there's a few cool things you can do with the PCE CD format.

While the syscard doesn't support ISO-9660 format, you can make such formatted/layout discs boot on the system. The system card only cares what index 01 is in terms of LBA (index 01 is the end of the pre-gap and the start of the track). You can align it to something specifically fixed in a real ISO (a file) to boot from.

 Or, you can exploit a trick defined way back.. that the first track can have a near infinite size pregap definition (some professional companies hidden music tracks in the pregap like this, so you had to 'rewind' into it in order to hear it). The system always looks for index 01, of any track (data). So you can hide an ISO binary inside the pregap area, and have the PCE code after that. Both PCs and SegaCD, use a hard coded offset that's equivalent to a 2 second pregap. I say equivalent, because it uses the LBA instead of "indexes". I was able to make a dual boot SegaCD/PCE-CD disc this way.

 But yeah, both ways work. The second method means you can't access the ISO binary though, even if it is on the same data track. The first method means you can, but if you want to actually handle parsing the CDFS table - you'll have to write that code yourself.

[elmer]

I don't know if you're writing your own dev stuff for CD, but there's a few cool things you can do with the PCE CD format.

While the syscard doesn't support ISO-9660 format, you can make such formatted/layout discs boot on the system.

I'd just put my own mini-filesystem on a data track ... that's the easiest way to handle things ... and generally how Western developers handled things in those days from what I remember.

Even on consoles that supported an ISO-9660 filesystem, you'll usually find that the developers have stored files inside large .PAK/.ZIP/.SOMETHING container files.

That's usually because ...
1) The OS's filehandling usually sucked and introduced large seek delays between (and sometimes within) files.
2) It's easier to control the organization of data on the disk.
3) It made it harder for both consumers and publishers to identify what's on the disc (and there was usually some stuff there that shouldn't have been there ... mostly files from previous projects that never got cleaned up).

I was able to make a dual boot SegaCD/PCE-CD disc this way.

That's a nice trick, thanks!

I'd love to know if it's possible to make a PCE/PC-FX or a PC-FX/Saturn dual-boot this way. 

[NightWolve]

You can get some used caps on the cheap, just ask NW.  ;)

=) They did go in the garbage and I got my money back. A lot more reversible than a hair-dried Turbo Duo.

[BlueBMW]

I noticed that MAM-A also sells silver 650mb archive discs.  I should give them a shot too.

[cjameslv]

I noticed that MAM-A also sells silver 650mb archive discs.  I should give them a shot too.

Gold & Silver discs lol bling bling

[Arkhan Asylum]

If you're burning simple test programs that only ever load one time, you can get away with burning the shit however because what it's loading is hardly effort.

It's when you have a game that does frequent loading that it's a real problem.

So if it's some stupid little test program that's like, 32k, just slap it on a decent CD-R however.

[thesteve]

the replacement lasers are not better then stock, but a well tuned duo will read anything
the "parked laser" is a problem with a bad burn or damaged disc, when the system loses track of the track count while moving outward.
it can happen (and does) with any disc, when the laser is having trouble maintaining focus during track change.

[TurboXray]

I don't know if you're writing your own dev stuff for CD, but there's a few cool things you can do with the PCE CD format.

While the syscard doesn't support ISO-9660 format, you can make such formatted/layout discs boot on the system.

I'd just put my own mini-filesystem on a data track ... that's the easiest way to handle things ... and generally how Western developers handled things in those days from what I remember.

Even on consoles that supported an ISO-9660 filesystem, you'll usually find that the developers have stored files inside large .PAK/.ZIP/.SOMETHING container files.

That's usually because ...
1) The OS's filehandling usually sucked and introduced large seek delays between (and sometimes within) files.
2) It's easier to control the organization of data on the disk.
3) It made it harder for both consumers and publishers to identify what's on the disc (and there was usually some stuff there that shouldn't have been there ... mostly files from previous projects that never got cleaned up).

Oh, no doubt. Yeah, CDFS is unnecessary for PCECD needs. My point was more to you can make dual boot or dual compatible CD, not for the PCE itself to read the file system. That would be for whatever system that reads it (PC? etc). You could put instructions, source, tutorials, whatever - on the ISO-9660 side. Stuff like that.

 The first method was an easier way to where a file is always at a fixed location in the ISO itself, and not that the PCE needed to read the ISO fat to access it; it (pce data) would just co-exist with the file system. Anyway, just fun stuff.

I'd love to know if it's possible to make a PCE/PC-FX or a PC-FX/Saturn dual-boot this way. 

Never did Saturn dev. That would be interesting. I know the PCFX can identify PCE CDs, so I'm not sure how to make a dual boot CD for that. Mednafen author might know.

[elmer]

the replacement lasers are not better then stock, but a well tuned duo will read anything

That's good to know! Perhaps I don't need to stock up on new lasers for the TurboDuo (already got a couple for the SuperCDROM).

the "parked laser" is a problem with a bad burn or damaged disc, when the system loses track of the track count while moving outward.
it can happen (and does) with any disc, when the laser is having trouble maintaining focus during track change.

I believe that that's one of (and maybe the only) reason for recommending 650mb CD-Rs over 700MB CD-Rs ... less dense tracks make them easier to follow.

I'm really curious to try Yamaha's old AMQR technology on a couple of disks to see if it makes any difference to the old CDROM2 and TurboDuo drives. It certainly couldn't hurt.

[NightWolve]

Just FYI out of interest, but that unlicensed Games Express card moved the system to the ISO file standard. Games like High Leg Fantasy are regular looking data CDs with lots of data files that make up the game.

[elmer]

You could put instructions, source, tutorials, whatever - on the ISO-9660 side. Stuff like that.

Thanks, I hadn't thought of it in those terms.

It might be cool to put the source code and PC development environment on a pressed-disc for people to play with.

Never did Saturn dev. That would be interesting. I know the PCFX can identify PCE CDs, so I'm not sure how to make a dual boot CD for that. Mednafen author might know.

I get the horrible feeling that they all boot in very similar ways ... so it may well not work. Plenty of time to check that later.

[Mednafen]

PCE CD BIOS will only boot from the first data track(assuming it has the magic), while the PC-FX BIOS searches for and uses the first data track that has the PC-FX magic.  If that's still not clear, just look at "Battle Heat", it's dual-boot PCE CD and PC-FX.

[elmer]

PCE CD BIOS will only boot from the first data track(assuming it has the magic), while the PC-FX BIOS searches for and uses the first data track that has the PC-FX magic.  If that's still not clear, just look at "Battle Heat", it's dual-boot PCE CD and PC-FX.

Thanks for the info ... that's perfectly clear, and wonderfully flexible on the PC-FX's part for the time that it came out!

So data track 1 would contain the PCE boot data, data track 2 would contain the PC-FX boot data, and you could have shared data on data track 3 (or anywhere).

It looks like the Saturn is expecting to boot off data track 1, too ... so I don't think that a triple-boot will be possible ... but it looks like the 2 combinations that interest me the most PCE/PC-FX and Saturn/PC-FX should be possible.