PCE, SNES and Genesis Screen Comparison.

shubibiman · 08/29/2009, 11:09 AM

Or maybe Layer Section?

_Paul · 08/29/2009, 12:37 PM

Quote from: esteban on 08/29/2009, 09:25 AMA. Folks! I still want to know if you think that one song from Bonanza Bros. is reminiscent of Space Harrier.

I've never really noticed any similarity between those two tunes. But considering they are both Sega games, is there a chance they are by the same composer?

Tatsujin · 08/29/2009, 12:46 PM

Quote from: guest on 08/29/2009, 12:37 PM
Quote from: esteban on 08/29/2009, 09:25 AMA. Folks! I still want to know if you think that one song from Bonanza Bros. is reminiscent of Space Harrier.
I've never really noticed any similarity between those two tunes. But considering they are both Sega games, is there a chance they are by the same composer?

dito here.

awack · 08/29/2009, 12:49 PM

QuoteGotta be an Amiga game or something German-developed

Your definitely on the right track, another hint, its an snes game.

QuoteThey copied PCE game designs shamelessly.

Thats cool, i didn't know that.

ccovell · 08/29/2009, 08:00 PM

Yeah, I knew it; it's Super Turrican II.

awack · 08/30/2009, 05:32 PM

Super Turrican 2 it be, that level is basically a mixture of Axelay and Super Star Soldier.

awack · 09/16/2009, 07:12 PM

The voice acting in the JPN pc engine Blackhole Assault is in english(US voice actors)

PC Engine CD	Sega CD

Ceti Alpha · 09/16/2009, 08:53 PM

Sega CD wins this one pretty handily.

TurboXray · 09/16/2009, 09:10 PM

Heh, the PCE version is a direct port of the Sega CD version. Those SegaCD shots are in the 30-35 color count range. They didn't even bother updating the graphics for the PCE port. Just rescaled and/or removed some overlapping parts. What a dirty port of a crappy game. SegaCD barely wins for the res.

awack · 09/17/2009, 12:54 AM

Exile.

PC Engine	Genesis

Ceti Alpha · 09/17/2009, 01:22 AM

That is one sorry excuse for a throne on the Genny:

Joe Redifer · 09/17/2009, 11:21 AM

Check my article at Sega-16 for even more screenshot comparisons of Exile.

Ceti Alpha · 09/18/2009, 01:07 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 09/17/2009, 11:21 AMCheck my article at Sega-16 for even more screenshot comparisons of Exile.

Cool. I haven't read that in ages. I think this game may be my next buy.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/18/2009, 10:43 PM

Exile on genesis is just pagadj;hkjsdfadfh

the MSX one is pretty good though. (XZR)

Blackhole assault though... i like the colors on the genesis, but the scaling on the PCE more.

shubibiman · 09/19/2009, 04:58 AM

Thanks guies for this thread. It's really helpful to make french forum members understand the silliness of their statements.

termis · 09/19/2009, 05:33 AM

That exile article was a good read.

After all these shots, it really does show how much more colorful the average TG/PCE game was compared to the Genesis/MD.

Though in Genesis's defense, many of its games looked better in motion (with parrallax and all).

awack · 09/19/2009, 06:29 AM

QuoteThanks guies for this thread. It's really helpful to make french forum members understand the silliness of their statements.

They seem to be impressed by the CD games but think hucards should be compared to the NES and SMS, their using Street Fighter II as an example..you should mention that the boat thats in Kens stage is a back ground tile and not a sprite.

As far as detail is concerned, its give and take, some more so on the snes SFII and others on the PCE SFII, perhaps the most extreme example of this is the Spain level, in the pce port you can see that there are eight people on each side of the two dancers instead of six, there is also a wall on each side of the room in the pce port....not to be out done the snes SFII has a sign in the background behind the health bar.

PC Engine	SNES

This is to show that the back ground dancers have two distinct frames in the pce SFII.

PC Engine	SNES

shubibiman · 09/19/2009, 06:53 AM

Thanks a lot for your help ;)

TurboXray · 09/19/2009, 01:54 PM

Quote from: shubibiman on 09/19/2009, 06:53 AMThanks a lot for your help ;)

Shubibiman: I just want to make some counter arguments and corrections for that forum.

That Seb25 guy doesn't really understand what he's talking about. System ram and vram not the same thing. Matter of fact, they are isolated. More system ram has nothing to do with VRAM. Video consoles are not home computers. Sounds like the guy is thinking in terms of the Amiga or some other home computer.

Also, the SNES has a 128 sprite table because it's *limited* to only *two* sprite sizes per screen, unlike the Genesis and PCE - which can display any of their sprites sizes onscreen at the same time. This limitation on the SNES requires a bigger table for optimization and also more CPU overhead (matrix math on grouped sprites, etc). The SNES is also limited where sprites can be in VRAM. They can only be in one of two 16k banks of vram. Tiles are the same way. The PCE and Genesis can have sprites and tiles *anywhere* in vram and thus is more flexible.

Quote from: Guyome Today I (re) played SF II 'on PCE and I noticed that the boat in the background in the course Ken was motionless while on MD and SNES it moves up and down according to the swell. A very big sprite to animate the little 8-bit core PCE

Yeah, it's not a sprite on the MD or the SNES either. It's the second background layer. And even if it *was* sprites, the PCE would have no problem "moving" them up and down. Like that takes any cpu resource - hahahaha. What a ridiculous statement.

QuoteI have a duet with PC Engine Arcade Card and changes everything. Without the Arcade Card I would like to see the mouth of Fatal Fury 2/Special or Art of Fighting ... It would surely not a pretty sight ...

PCE could quite easily do the *same* game via HuCard. RAM or ROM, it makes no difference when copying data (sprites) to vram via the video port.

It seems to me that members on that forum want to put the PCE in the NES/SMS category just because the CPU is 8bit. Yet the neglect the fact that speed, not "bitness", is what's important. So if the PCE has a slow 3mhz 16bit, then that would make it a 16bit console in there eyes? Ridiculous. The end desired result is "speed", not bitness. The PCE cpu is faster than the "16bit" SNES and is just as fast as the "16bit" Genesis - and even faster in some situations. The PCE can push huge sprites around onscreen, tons of colors, etc.

Ceti Alpha · 09/19/2009, 02:19 PM

Agreed. I can't believe this 8bit debate is still going on.

The proof is in the puddin', and the PCE/TG outclasses the NES in so many ways, even the earlier PCE games. It's like these people forget what NES games actually look like. I'm not dumping on the NES, but it is what it is. Whether an 8bit or a 16bit CPU, show me the goods. In the end, these people will learn to OBEY.

shubibiman · 09/19/2009, 02:21 PM

Thanks Tom for all those points. Actually, that's what I want to tell them but I don't have the technical skills and words to explain clearly. That will help a lot.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/19/2009, 02:26 PM

This is what happens when people who don't actually program anything go on Wikipedia. They quote hardware numbers and basically make up their own science.

A perfect example of why the bittage of the CPU dont mean shit:

Look at street fighter II on the Commodore 64. Its a 6502 juuuust like the PCE. Where it falls short is the VIC-II and its unimpressive video chip. SOMETIMES the VIC-II makes some pretty cool lookin stuff. Most of the time, its very crummy and washed out looking....it all depends how hip the artist is. (Mayhem in Monsterland = <3. Nice and colorful.)

colors aside, it can't really keep up with a game like street fighter. Same CPU (sort of), wayyyy different result.

BEHOLD:

Quote from: dopey guyA very big sprite to animate the little 8-bit core PCE

I think alot of people are convinced anything that is pixelated/2d/in a game is a "sprite".

You might be able to use some wizardry and make it a background tile that moves up and down. If not, 2 or so sprites (i dont know how big that boat is off hand) can EASILY be drawn and moved constantly during the game loop.

shubibiman · 09/19/2009, 05:23 PM

Enjoy :

QuoteTiens je viens de voir sur la fiche wikipédia de la PC Engine que la DUO avait un processeur supplémentaire, un 65802 à 16 MHz :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoreGrafX

TurboXray · 09/19/2009, 06:09 PM

Quote from: shubibiman on 09/19/2009, 05:23 PMEnjoy :

QuoteTiens je viens de voir sur la fiche wikipédia de la PC Engine que la DUO avait un processeur supplémentaire, un 65802 à 16 MHz :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoreGrafX

Wow! That site has quite a few inaccuracies. The GPU is a "65c02" clone (and the label is HuC6270)!? But the main CPU is only a "6502" clone!?!? WTF? 6502 is like 3 versions back (with missing addressing modes/instructions/etc). And the GPU isn't a CPU. Resolution is wrong, audio is wrong, color counts are wrong. Calling the CD ram "cache" is wrong. It's system cart space, not cache. And then the mentioning of the 65802 in the CD system.

QuoteThe additional memory even allowed the console to display polygons 3D well beyond what the Famicom and Megadrive / Mega-CD could offer.

Hahahaha. Who writes this stuff for the French wiki site? MooZ needs to whip their asses ;>_>

blueraven · 09/19/2009, 09:44 PM

Quote from: guest on 09/19/2009, 02:26 PMBEHOLD:

I learn something new everytime I log onto this site.

awack · 09/19/2009, 09:47 PM

An evolution of hucard graphics, this is one of the reasons why you get so many different opinions about the pc engine, most of the games on the left were released from 1987 to 1990 and average a lower meg count, the games on the right were released from 1991 to 1993 and have a higher meg count on average.

I should point out that there were games released earlier that looked better than what is represented below(im trying to make a point) and some later released games looked awful.

early games, small rom size	later games, larger rom size

last of the exile screens.

PC Engine	Genesis

Tatsujin · 09/19/2009, 11:24 PM

Quote from: Tom on 09/19/2009, 06:09 PM
Quote from: shubibiman on 09/19/2009, 05:23 PMEnjoy :

QuoteTiens je viens de voir sur la fiche wikipédia de la PC Engine que la DUO avait un processeur supplémentaire, un 65802 à 16 MHz :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoreGrafX
Wow! That site has quite a few inaccuracies. The GPU is a "65c02" clone (and the label is HuC6270)!? But the main CPU is only a "6502" clone!?!? WTF? 6502 is like 3 versions back (with missing addressing modes/instructions/etc). And the GPU isn't a CPU. Resolution is wrong, audio is wrong, color counts are wrong. Calling the CD ram "cache" is wrong. It's system cart space, not cache. And then the mentioning of the 65802 in the CD system.

QuoteThe additional memory even allowed the console to display polygons 3D well beyond what the Famicom and Megadrive / Mega-CD could offer.
Hahahaha. Who writes this stuff for the French wiki site? MooZ needs to whip their asses ;>_>

hahaha

and i always thought the frenchs are so uber wellknowers when it coms to pc engine stuff!! FAIL

shubibiman · 09/20/2009, 04:38 AM

Actually, there are so many french guies who think they know about the PCE. You woudln' t believe it. Worst of all, this wikipedia shit was written by a team who's projecting to create a video game museum. This is so uber funny when you read this shit. A few years back, I registered to their forums to give a hand because of the inaccuracies in their sheets. The members nearly laughed at me, saying I was saying bullshit. There are so many guies like them, it's so irritating. I don't know if you read french enough to undertsand how horrible it is for me to discuss with these guies who don't want to understand and to admit that they're wrong. It's the same thing in most of the forums about video games in general.

So basically, those who've been into the PCE for 18 years are wellknowers but beside that, you have millions of ignorants who, just because they bought a PCE 2 months ago with 2 games think they're part of the elite.

awack · 09/20/2009, 07:43 PM

Quotehahaha

and i always thought the frenchs are so uber wellknowers when it coms to pc engine stuff!! FAIL

I don't know if you were posting or viewing these forums a few years back but it almost the same deal, you would hear statements like ""the best looking pcengine games, cd or hucard looked no better than nes or early megadrive games""of course you had people like Black Tiger, Joe, Tom and a few others to counter this.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/20/2009, 07:57 PM

hah that French wiki is funny.

6502 based variant doesnt mean its an exact replica...

anyone whos anyone knows the PCE has a souped up 6502 variant, as opposed to the good ol' MOS chip. Its a compatible, turbo charged 6502!

its just too bad the assembly is the same horror either way. :-D

What I wonder is, is there a PCE game with graphics that are worse than an NES game? Even the first year PCE games look nice and smooth to me...

Tatsujin · 09/21/2009, 03:07 AM

Quote from: guest on 09/20/2009, 07:57 PMWhat I wonder is, is there a PCE game with graphics that are worse than an NES game? Even the first year PCE games look nice and smooth to me...

may be energy?

Arkhan Asylum · 09/21/2009, 05:49 AM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 09/21/2009, 03:07 AM
Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 09/20/2009, 07:57 PMWhat I wonder is, is there a PCE game with graphics that are worse than an NES game? Even the first year PCE games look nice and smooth to me...
may be energy?

I dunno. thats close, but still better than NES. I don't think anything on PCE graphically actually sucks. Its all pretty legit.

Man I should play that game again. I liked it!

Tatsujin · 09/21/2009, 06:26 AM

Quote from: guest on 09/21/2009, 05:49 AM
Quote from: Tatsujin on 09/21/2009, 03:07 AM
Quote from: guest on 09/20/2009, 07:57 PMWhat I wonder is, is there a PCE game with graphics that are worse than an NES game? Even the first year PCE games look nice and smooth to me...
may be energy?
I dunno. thats close, but still better than NES. I don't think anything on PCE graphically actually sucks. Its all pretty legit.

Man I should play that game again. I liked it!

if we talk about NES games in generally, energy still holds up well in terms of graphic etc. but there are some few amazing games out on the NES, which beat it with ease.

_Paul · 09/21/2009, 06:45 AM

Lode Runner is pretty basic (not the Hudson one).

/loderunnerll033569175.gif

NecroPhile · 09/21/2009, 12:02 PM

Time Ball and Xevious don't really look any better than a good NES game.

Arkhan Asylum · 09/21/2009, 01:57 PM

Quote from: NecroPhile on 09/21/2009, 12:02 PMTime Ball and Xevious don't really look any better than a good NES game.

Xevious doesn't even count as a game. Its torture on a HuCard.

The PCE one does look better than the NES one though >_>

TurboXray · 09/21/2009, 03:24 PM

Quote from: guest on 09/20/2009, 07:57 PM6502 based variant doesnt mean its an exact replica...

Yeah. 30 new instructions and 14 new addressing mode for existing instructions. Not to mention DMA type instructions, new RMW mode to replace Acc, and 8 processor memory mapping registers, etc. Clone usually implies a close copy of, in almost all context usage. The HuC6280 is most definitely not a 6502 clone.

awack · 09/21/2009, 03:42 PM

Hey shubibiman, i thought it was pretty odd that guyome compared bonks adventure to Donkey Kong Country 2, but at any rate, the DKC 2 screenshot that he used is distorted with way, way more in it than there should be.

guyomes comparison shots

the way the shot should look, it still looks great but you can tell that there isn't as much gradiation in the colors/not as blurry. A shot of shadowgate for a better comparison.

SignOfZeta · 09/21/2009, 05:07 PM

Quote from: guestWhat I wonder is, is there a PCE game with graphics that are worse than an NES game? Even the first year PCE games look nice and smooth to me...

Are you asking if there is any NES game that looks better than any PCE game? This is largely a matter of personal taste, and I'm no fan of the NES, but I would say yes, for sure. Recca and Mighty Final Fight look better than Circus Lido or [instert random puzzle thing]. There are several RPGs or digital comics on PCE that don't look as good as Jesus or Dragon Quest IV. Megaman (any of them) looks way better than Energy.

Ceti Alpha · 09/21/2009, 05:11 PM

Quote from: guest on 09/21/2009, 01:57 PM
Quote from: guest on 09/21/2009, 12:02 PMTime Ball and Xevious don't really look any better than a good NES game.
Xevious doesn't even count as a game. Its torture on a HuCard.

The PCE one does look better than the NES one though >_>

The NES port of Xevious is quite good, though still missing some details. Keep in mind we're talking about a game from 1982. Actually, the PCE port is the first port of Xevious that is virtually identical to the arcade, minus the high res/arcade mode.

The Fardraut Saga sequel that's included on the HuCard does have some graphical detail improvements, but it's generally the same visually. If you want to talk about absolutely horrendous ports of Xevious, just look to the 7800 or the C64. Xevious: Arrangement for the Arcade/PS1 could have been translated nicely for the PCE, especially with CD music.

SignOfZeta · 09/21/2009, 05:32 PM

The lesson to be learned here is that any version of Xevious is pretty much torture, including the arcade. The PCE can only do so much.

NecroPhile · 09/21/2009, 05:34 PM

Quote from: awack on 09/21/2009, 03:42 PM

Can you run this through the PCE-ifier utility that changes pics to 'legal' PCE colors? SNES games are usually very nicely colored (no argument there), but I doubt that this particular pic would lose much in the translation.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 09/21/2009, 05:32 PMThe lesson to be learned here is that any version of Xevious is pretty much torture, including the arcade. The PCE can only do so much.

OBEY X.E.V.I.O.U.S.

Ceti Alpha · 09/21/2009, 05:59 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 09/21/2009, 05:32 PMThe lesson to be learned here is that any version of Xevious is pretty much torture, including the arcade. The PCE can only do so much.

haha. I respectfully disagree.

Quote from: guest on 09/21/2009, 05:34 PMOBEY X.E.V.I.O.U.S.

*OBEYS*

awack · 09/21/2009, 07:38 PM

QuoteCan you run this through the PCE-ifier utility that changes pics to 'legal' PCE colors? SNES games are usually very nicely colored (no argument there), but I doubt that this particular pic would lose much in the translation.

I think it would be difficult, DKC used debabelizing, i think that means starting with millions of colors for a screen and using this method(using a computer) you would subtract colors until down to between 70 and 180 which is what DKC I has...so the end result should be that it looks like there are more colors than there actually are.

Ive never played DKC2(only DKC1) but it appears that there is a lot transparent layering in that DKC2 shot, but i think some one who spent enough time with it could do a nice pce screenshot version.

Joe Redifer · 09/21/2009, 08:05 PM

Does anyone know of a decent color-counting method or plug-in for Photoshop? The old Telegraphics CountColor Plug-In is much too ancient to work with CS4.

awack · 09/21/2009, 08:08 PM

Daisenpuu.

There is a Daisenpuu for the pce cd as well, if there is any difference in that one, ill post some shots.

PC Engine	Genesis

Joe Redifer · 09/21/2009, 08:29 PM

What game is this in English?

Genesis one looks better.

awack · 09/21/2009, 08:31 PM

Twin Hawk for the genesis.

TurboXray · 09/21/2009, 08:37 PM

Quote from: guest on 09/21/2009, 05:34 PM
Quote from: awack on 09/21/2009, 03:42 PM
Can you run this through the PCE-ifier utility that changes pics to 'legal' PCE colors? SNES games are usually very nicely colored (no argument there), but I doubt that this particular pic would lose much in the translation.

/dck2pce1.png <- full noise dithering
/dck2pce2.png <- full pattern dithering
/dck2pce3.png <- 33% diffusion dithering
/dck2pce4.png <- no dithering. Straight conversion

Ignore the dithering on the sprites in the first 3 pics. They convert directly to PCE's palette since all the sprites in DKC are 15 colors. The thing you don't see in that pic, is that the foreground scroll of 'honey' dripping down - is transparent. In motion, it looks a different obviously.

QuoteWhat game is this in English?

Genesis one looks better.

No way. Not that the game looks spectacular, but the PCE as more detail in colors.

awack · 09/21/2009, 08:59 PM

That looks great, the one thing i had doubts about were the transparencies, but thats the best part in your conversion....you had to have hand picked those colors(transparent honey)....good job.