PC Engine on par technically with SNES / Genesis ?

esteban · 09/02/2006, 01:42 AM

Quote from: CrackTiger...but almost every track which appears in both versions sounds like it's being played by a band of souless skilled robots instead of a group of talented humans putting real emotion into it.

Soulless robots? Of course! This is FEKA, after all.

Joe Redifer · 09/02/2006, 03:01 AM

Well obviously the Turbo version will destroy the Sega version because the Turbo is better than the Genesis is every conceivable way. That's why Noriyuki Iwadare did the music for the Turbo version of Devil's Crush but refused to lend a hand in the Genesis version. Instead a skilled robot ported the music and was programmed to assign only soulless instruments to it. So since the music was done by a robot, it is more efficient, but lacks all of the emtional charge of the original. And what an emotional trip it was! Nothing ever brought forth emotions like the score in Devil's Crush.

(J/K by the way ... just having a bit of stupid fun here)

In all honesty, Dragon's Fury was TechnoSoft's least impressive Genesis game in every respect, including sound. I am amazed that Herzog Zwei sounds so much better, but DF sounds rough in comparison. And yes, I am a huge Thunder Force 2 fan. Love the game. Do you hate it? I'm trying to care, but I can't. I love it.

Keranu · 09/02/2006, 05:07 AM

I might be the only person in the world who can't stand Techno Soft's sound on the Genesis, it sounds just as bad as some American rubbish like Chakan to me

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Joe Redifer · 09/02/2006, 05:14 AM

Selective listening, I guess. Chakan will make your ears bleed, and mine are already bleeding just thinking about it. So are my eyes. Thanks.

Seldane · 09/02/2006, 09:06 AM

It's supposed to sound like crap! I love crappy chip music! Cd music is totally lame especially considering they're never using real instruments!

JoshTurboTrollX · 09/02/2006, 02:33 PM

Not to throw more salt into Feka's wounds ( I love my genny).

But did you guys notice that the Genesis Version came out in 1992? And the Turbo Version was released TWO years before!

So they ported a 2 year old Turbo game over to the Genesis and couldn't even have full-screen playing area?

Sad!

Damn Sad!

TurboSage

Seldane · 09/02/2006, 02:56 PM

turbo_sage: Lame game (virtual pinball!), lame developer.

Keranu · 09/02/2006, 04:13 PM

Seldane's opinions once again used as facts

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Seriously, Devil's Crush is awesome and the vast majority will probably agree.

Seldane · 09/02/2006, 05:02 PM

I never said it was a fact, I just said lame game. I said it, it's my opinion.

Seriously though - pinball videogames? I think not!

Joe Redifer · 09/02/2006, 07:29 PM

Quote from: turbo_sageSo they ported a 2 year old Turbo game over to the Genesis and couldn't even have full-screen playing area?

That's because they ported the playfield over pixel-for-pixel (before tweaking it to make it look more contrasty) and used a higher resolution than the Turbo version. That's like playing an emulator in full screen mode on your computer, saving a screenshot, and then opening it up to see it barely takes up any space on the monitor and blaming your computer for not being able to display it full screen (OK not the greatest analogy but it works). It's not like they couldn't have made it full screen, it's that they didn't. The Genesis has a resolution mode that is the same as the Turbo game (which would have given you your full screen), but I don't think Technosoft has ever used that mode. Alternatively they could have (should have) just redrawn the graphics in the higher resolution mode and made it full screen.

Keranu · 09/03/2006, 01:40 AM

I agree and think it would've been better just to use the standard 256x224 PCE resolution for the Genesis version or just made full screen use out of the default Genesis resolution they decided to use. I wasn't a fan of that side bar

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esteban · 09/03/2006, 02:39 AM

Quote from: SeldaneI never said it was a fact, I just said lame game. I said it, it's my opinion.

Seriously though - pinball videogames? I think not!

Seldane, I love reading your comments, since you're such an antagonist

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Some pinball games are sterile and clinical and I can understand your distaste for them.

I prefer real pinball, myself. But pinball video games like Devil's Crush are gems: the mood, atmosphere, control and feel of the game might even convince you to give pinball another chance!

CrackTiger · 09/04/2006, 01:19 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer
Quote from: turbo_sageSo they ported a 2 year old Turbo game over to the Genesis and couldn't even have full-screen playing area?
That's because they ported the playfield over pixel-for-pixel (before tweaking it to make it look more contrasty) and used a higher resolution than the Turbo version. That's like playing an emulator in full screen mode on your computer, saving a screenshot, and then opening it up to see it barely takes up any space on the monitor and blaming your computer for not being able to display it full screen (OK not the greatest analogy but it works). It's not like they couldn't have made it full screen, it's that they didn't. The Genesis has a resolution mode that is the same as the Turbo game (which would have given you your full screen), but I don't think Technosoft has ever used that mode. Alternatively they could have (should have) just redrawn the graphics in the higher resolution mode and made it full screen.

If you look closely, they actually redrew all the graphics/art from scratch. Which makes it weird that they'd add a side boarder, but in the end, both versions look and sound cool and neither one is a good all-round benchmark for their system. I don't know if there even is such a game (benchmarker) for any system. People will always find things to nitpick about. That's what makes hobbies like this fun for so many people.

Joe Redifer · 09/04/2006, 05:41 AM

One thing that always chapped my ass (until the Duo came along, anyway) was the fact that it was necessary to buy extra equipment if you wanted stereo sound and simple composite video. That was just plain stupid of NEC or Hudson or whoever decided that would be a fantastic idea. Also stupid was the fact that they limited themselves to composite unless you hack open the console. The Sega Master System even had RGB which can easily be converted into S-video or component. I wish they would have at least had a real RGB jack. I was so happy when I modded mine for RGB. Finally that flickering hair at the end of the Ys opening scene no longer flickers at all! The scrolling is no longer fuzzy in Legendary Axe and every other game. Fantasy Zone no longer causes epileptic fits due to the flickering sky. You know you've got some bad composite when it's flickering and it looks like it's supposed to be flickering.

Evil flickering! Begone! With RGB, it is gone.

Somebody should go back in time and fix these issues. C'mon, the Genesis and SNES had composite and RGB out of the box.

Keranu · 09/04/2006, 05:52 AM

I assume the main reason the PCE didn't have composite out was space issues, though they were able to fit it just fine in the Core Grafx systems. For Turbo Grafx 16, I assume it's because they assumed if the PCE didn't have it, they shouldn't have it.

Joe Redifer · 09/04/2006, 06:02 AM

Isn't the CoreGrafx the same exact thing as the PC Engine, just a different color, name, and outputs?

Seldane · 09/04/2006, 11:13 AM

Yes, the PC Engine natively outputs a horrible picture. The composite output is much worse than anything else I have ever seen. Walking past houses in Ys IV makes the rooftops flicker, for example, really weird.

Since the PC Engine's video chip natively outputs composite (and to some degree, RGB), they could've easily put a connector on it, but instead they chose to release an "add-on" (here are the add-ons again) to output a picture pretty much just as bad as rf. Ridiculous!

CrackTiger · 09/04/2006, 12:25 PM

Quote from: Joe RediferIsn't the CoreGrafx the same exact thing as the PC Engine, just a different color, name, and outputs?

This issue he's refering to being fixed with the Coregrafx's is the need to use an add-on just to get composite, since they use the same video cable as the Duo's and SuperGrafx.

Although I can understand why they would've released the original PC Engine as-is, I still think that by the time the Duo came out, or maybe at least with the SuperGrafx, they should given it an RGB upgrade of some sort.

At least with an A/V or Turbo Booster you had Stereo ready to go, instead of having to line it through an earphone jack.

As for the Sega Master System, it was at least as ahead of it's time that the PC Engine.

TurboXray · 09/04/2006, 01:01 PM

QuoteAt least with an A/V or Turbo Booster you had Stereo ready to go, instead of having to line it through an earphone jack.

I'm not sure what you mean. The Duo had stereo output via the RCA cables - the earphone jack was for earphones. Or were you refering to the Gen/MD?

CrackTiger · 09/04/2006, 01:17 PM

Quote from: Bonknuts
QuoteAt least with an A/V or Turbo Booster you had Stereo ready to go, instead of having to line it through an earphone jack.

I'm not sure what you mean. The Duo had stereo output via the RCA cables - the earphone jack was for earphones. Or were you refering to the Gen/MD?

Yeah, I was refering to the original MD. Was stereo sound not a big deal to Japanese gamers or something? Why did the MDII and Multi Mega come with mono video cables when the North American version came with stereo ones?

SignOfZeta · 09/04/2006, 01:23 PM

Quote from: Joe RediferOne thing that always chapped my ass (until the Duo came along, anyway) was the fact that it was necessary to buy extra equipment if you wanted stereo sound and simple composite video. That was just plain stupid of NEC or Hudson or whoever decided that would be a fantastic idea. Also stupid was the fact that they limited themselves to composite unless you hack open the console. The Sega Master System even had RGB which can easily be converted into S-video or component. I wish they would have at least had a real RGB jack. I was so happy when I modded mine for RGB. Finally that flickering hair at the end of the Ys opening scene no longer flickers at all! The scrolling is no longer fuzzy in Legendary Axe and every other game. Fantasy Zone no longer causes epileptic fits due to the flickering sky. You know you've got some bad composite when it's flickering and it looks like it's supposed to be flickering.

Somebody should go back in time and fix these issues. C'mon, the Genesis and SNES had composite and RGB out of the box.

Again? This isn't the first time I've seen people fault console output choices from ages ago. The PCE is from 1987. What kind of inputs did you have on your TV in 1987? In 1987 my TV still had a 13 channel rotory changer on it!

In 1987 S-Video was just starting to come into use, but it was exclusive to VCRs that cost $1000+. I have a top of the line Pioneer professional LD player from 1988, and it doesn't have s-video on it. Why should it be on a kid's toy?

Composite was more common, but still nowhere near as common as RF, which was the only input for %99.999 of the TVs on the planet at that time.

RGB was exclusive to TVs in Japan, and parts of Europe (where the PCE wasn't really availible), and still it was missing from most of the budget sets. RGB is nice because it can be converted to component, but component wasn't invented for another *decade*.

Either way NEC obviously thought that RF out only was a bad idea, and so they changed it to composite rather early on. Only the TG-16, and white PCE are RF only, both were upgradable, and all the other variants that came after had composite.

Additionally, I don't get flickering hair in the Ys intro while using composite. You need to buy a TV with a better comb filter.

Seldane · 09/04/2006, 01:25 PM

You can only see the flickering if you have a TV with a really sharp and nice picture.

SignOfZeta · 09/04/2006, 01:52 PM

Quote from: SeldaneYou can only see the flickering if you have a TV with a really sharp and nice picture.

So...a 36" Wega isn't good enough? I've seen the flicker before, but only on my older, crapier sets.

Seldane · 09/04/2006, 01:58 PM

Quote from: SignOfZetaSo...a 36" Wega isn't good enough? I've seen the flicker before, but only on my older, crapier sets.

I have no idea. I have only seen the flicker once (in Ys IV). I RGB modded my system right after that.

Keranu · 09/04/2006, 04:42 PM

SignofZeta's post about TVs in 1987 was something I was meaning to post ab out as well. Back when I was a kid, I used to always use RF for my video games since it was the most common output I had to use. Eventually I would normally use AVs, but that wasn't until later. So I think if you asked someone back in 1987-1990 about TG16/PCE not having composite out built in, they wouldn't really care, unless they were some super technical nerd

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Seldane · 09/04/2006, 04:59 PM

Same thing as people complaining about the Wii not having HDTV-support.

Really, composite was definitely NOT hi-tech in 1987. It is over fifty years old just as coaxial (rf) is.

Also, children/old folks tend to use rf and stuff because they don't know about other options. Just saying.

Keranu · 09/04/2006, 05:02 PM

Exactly, so the PCE and TG16 being RF only back in 1987 and 1989 wasn't a big deal at all

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Joe Redifer · 09/04/2006, 05:05 PM

Quote from: CrackTigerAt least with an A/V or Turbo Booster you had Stereo ready to go, instead of having to line it through an earphone jack.

I know, what's up with that? If you use the AV cable, you only get the right channel, not even a mono mixdown of both channels! Furthermore the headphone jack on the MD1/Genesis1 is the ONLY way to get stereo out of the system. Hook up a Sega CD and you get some nice RCA jacks BUT you still need to run a wire from the headphone jack into the Sega CD (which is really stupid being as how they could have routed sound through the connection. Power, too. No need for 15 different AC Adaptors). Or you can get all of the Sega CD and Genesis audio straight out of the headphone jack as long as you don't hook anything into the mixing jack of the Sega CD, but no matter what, the headphone jack must be used.

Quote from: SignOfZetaWhat kind of inputs did you have on your TV in 1987?

RF and composite. That's how I hooked my Sega Master System up (composite). I didn't have an NES at the time, but when friends would bring theirs over, we'd hook it up with composite. Also whenever I'd take my SMS over to my dad's house or wherever, I'd hook it up in composite as well. Everyone had composite. Composite rocked our world. I wasn't saying the Turbo/PCE should have had S-video built right in to the console, but composite would have been nice. A booster that provided s-video would have kicked so much ass I probably would have done several back handsprings when buying it.

As for the flickering, I have had a bunch of really nice Sony TVs myself and currently own one of the best Sony CRTs ever made. The flickering is there. It's in the signal output by the graphics chip. If the TV is "combing" it out, then it is altering the signal. The TV cannot add detail that is not there. My animated GIF of the flickering is not TV dependent. And it went through a very high end ($500) Sony capture device. Anyway you may notice that the PCE's composite signal looks a tad sharper than the Genesis/MD's composite signal. I think the flickering is a trade off. The Genesis didn't have fuzzy scrolling or video flickering caused by the composite cable, but it looked noticeably softer despite the usually-higher resolution used on their games. Genesis composite did have thse awful vertical bars of color, though. Those are present in the PCE/Turbo signal as well, though to a much lesser extent.

Moral of the story: Composite sucks.

Seldane · 09/04/2006, 05:17 PM

Slightly heated discussion. I like.

Joe Redifer · 09/04/2006, 06:00 PM

This really isn't that heated. It's "spirited". It is fun.

I really do like this thread because lots of smart people bring up great points on all sides.

esteban · 09/04/2006, 06:12 PM

As folks have said, RF input / output was exceedingly common for televsion sets in the U.S. I don't know how the consumer electronics market was for Seldane in Esteria, but here in the States the main selling point for televisions was the screen size (25" was friggin' awesome) and features (picture in picture, baby!).

Joe was lucky to have composite readily available on his own (and all his friends') television sets in 1987. Growing up in a working class area, it would be at least five more years until RCA jacks (A/V) was in widespread use by my relatives and friends (and these are folks who bought newer televsions, lots of folks just kept their old TV's until they died, like my family did).

Keranu · 09/04/2006, 06:25 PM

Steve, tell them about the old black and white TV you used to have to use for years

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Seldane · 09/04/2006, 06:54 PM

I played my games on an ancient (well, 70's) TV with no SCART/AV or anything. I connected all the video game systems via the VCR. That is, until the TV died and I got a new one with SCART (but without RGB support, cheap stuff).

My current (third, actually) TV has AV, S-video, SCART, RGB and all that stuff. No HD support, of course. I don't want to mess up my precious games with that kinda stuff.

OldRover · 09/04/2006, 07:12 PM

I have no idea what would cause such weird flicker in that part of Ys. I've played that game on five different televisions and never noticed anything like that, and rarely do such details escape me (as a lifelong game programmer, I have an unnatural eye for detail that will notice things even a pixel off...such a problem would not go unnoticed by me).

Joe Redifer · 09/04/2006, 07:16 PM

The flicker is actually much faster than the GIF I posted shows. It is as fast as interlace flicker, or 1/60th of a second per "flick".

I would like to see some of your TVs with that screen and no flicker, but I can't think of any way for anyone to reliably prove that it does or doesn't flicker in that spot other that to see it with our own eyes. Maybe it doesn't flicker there in PAL lands.

Seldane · 09/04/2006, 07:22 PM

I recommend walking up and down in any village in Ys IV looking at the rooftops. Now that's some high quality flickering!

dougal · 07/15/2013, 05:40 PM

I know its an old thread but here is my non technical opinion of the 3 systems.

Firstly, ALL 3 systems have excellent game exclusives. Though I would probably say my favorites for exclusives would be 1st the SNES, 2nd Mega Drive and very VERY close 3rd the PCE.

Graphics-wise, 1st SNES and Mega Drive & PCE I would probably put on roughly the same level.

Sound-wise, 1st SNES and 2nd both PCE and Megadrive equally. I say this because whilst its true most PCE sounds are pretty basic the sounds in SFII are WAY BETTER on the PCE than they are on the MD. The voices on PCE are clear and like the arcade version but on the Mega Drive they just sound croaky / froggy.

Looks-wise, The Megadrive is the winner. It looks great in black and great design. The PCE is 2nd as its so small and well designed. SNES is pretty ugly compared to the other two.

I have all 3 systems, have had a SNES since I was 11 years old and Megadrive since age 15. I got my PCE recently. I love all 3 systems and for the last few weeks all I have been playing is PCE but overall, all things considered I think the best system is the SNES but kudos to the PCE for being so good that it is comparable to the 16 bit SNES and Megadrive even though it is an 8 Bit console.

PCEngineHell · 07/15/2013, 07:47 PM

Christ, fucking noobs and their necroposting threads........

VenomMacbeth · 07/15/2013, 08:12 PM

Quote from: dougal on 07/15/2013, 05:40 PM...it is an 8 Bit console.

Here we go.

Tatsujin · 07/15/2013, 08:20 PM

Quote from: dougal on 07/15/2013, 05:40 PMThough I would probably say my favorites for exclusives would be 1st the SNES, 2nd Mega Drive and very VERY close 3rd the PCE.

Blasphemer

But it ranked very high conidering you have absolute no nostalgic feelings for it. So I would assume, that PCE would be your absolute #1 if you had it back in time.

dougal · 07/16/2013, 12:31 AM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 07/15/2013, 08:20 PM
Quote from: dougal on 07/15/2013, 05:40 PMThough I would probably say my favorites for exclusives would be 1st the SNES, 2nd Mega Drive and very VERY close 3rd the PCE.
Blasphemer

But it ranked very high conidering you have absolute no nostalgic feelings for it. So I would assume, that PCE would be your absolute #1 if you had it back in time.

Totally! I have almost every console and if I want to generalize I actually prefer the PCE to many consoles I have owned as a kid like the PS1, Saturn and NES.

And no matter what anybody says Ninja Gaiden is MUCH nicer on the PCE than it is on the NES. Much nicer colors and the music in my opinion is 10 times nicer than the NES version.

CrackTiger · 07/16/2013, 01:45 PM

Quote from: dougal on 07/15/2013, 05:40 PMI know its an old thread but here is my non technical opinion of the 3 systems.

Firstly, ALL 3 systems have excellent game exclusives. Though I would probably say my favorites for exclusives would be 1st the SNES, 2nd Mega Drive and very VERY close 3rd the PCE.

Graphics-wise, 1st SNES and Mega Drive & PCE I would probably put on roughly the same level.

Sound-wise, 1st SNES and 2nd both PCE and Megadrive equally. I say this because whilst its true most PCE sounds are pretty basic the sounds in SFII are WAY BETTER on the PCE than they are on the MD. The voices on PCE are clear and like the arcade version but on the Mega Drive they just sound croaky / froggy.

Looks-wise, The Megadrive is the winner. It looks great in black and great design. The PCE is 2nd as its so small and well designed. SNES is pretty ugly compared to the other two.

I have all 3 systems, have had a SNES since I was 11 years old and Megadrive since age 15. I got my PCE recently. I love all 3 systems and for the last few weeks all I have been playing is PCE but overall, all things considered I think the best system is the SNES but kudos to the PCE for being so good that it is comparable to the 16 bit SNES and Megadrive even though it is an 8 Bit console.

The PCE has CD sound and warble-free adpcm. What SNES game sounds nearly as good as Tengai Makyou Fuun Kabuki Den?

Have you played through Anearth Fantasy Stories, Legend of Xanadu I & II, Gulliver Boy, Cosmic Fantasy 4, Ai Cho Aniki, World Heroes 2, Fatal Fury Special, 3x3 Eyes, DE JA, Beyond Shadowgate, Tenchi Muyo, Spriggan, Kiaidan 00, etc?

The PCE is the only console hardware of that generation that can handle 16-bit sprites like the 16-bit arcade hardware of the time. The SNES and Genesis just fake large sprites, but the PCE almost always does huge sprites for real. Kudos to the other consoles for tacking "Super" and "16-bit" on their hardware, but they do big sprites the exact same way as the NES and SMS.

The SNES still has crippling slowdown even while using FAKE sprites. It's basically just a colorful NES with a couple special effects thrown in. Just compare Gradius II for Famicom and Gradius III SNES. Games like Dragon Slayer and Dragon Quest V prove how solid ths SNES is within 8-bit generation quality. Even the better looking games still use Gameboy-quality graphics.

BigusSchmuck · 07/16/2013, 03:36 PM

Why is there even a thread arguing about these systems on a pcengine/turbografx forum? Its like posting DVDs have better sound than Laserdiscs on a Laserdisc forum... In short, its always has been about the games and that is how it should be.

CrackTiger · 07/16/2013, 08:16 PM

Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 07/16/2013, 03:36 PMWhy is there even a thread arguing about these systems on a pcengine/turbografx forum? Its like posting DVDs have better sound than Laserdiscs on a Laserdisc forum... In short, its always has been about the games and that is how it should be.

Bien sûr que c'est idiot. Il suffit de comparer les jeux et même un Américain peut clairement voir la différence. Si le SNES n'était pas la qualité 8-BIT, alors pourquoi ne pas ces jeux de meilleure qualité que les jeux PC Engine ?

Bardoly · 07/17/2013, 11:28 AM

So..., care to tell us in English which games the screenshots come from?

I recognize 7 of those, and a couple more seem somewhat familiar, but I would appreciate knowing which games go with which screenshots.

Nando · 07/17/2013, 12:41 PM

Quote from: Bardoly on 07/17/2013, 11:28 AMSo..., care to tell us in English which games the screenshots come from?

I recognize 7 of those, and a couple more seem somewhat familiar, but I would appreciate knowing which games go with which screenshots.

Ditto

ParanoiaDragon · 07/17/2013, 01:02 PM

On the PC Engine side, I'd say going down...Legend of Xanadu 2, Dragon Knight 3 or Dragon Knight & Graffitti, Panic Bomber, Legend of Xanadu, Gulliver Boy, Super Darius 2, Anearth Fantasy Stories, Fatal Fury 2 or FF2 Special, Rayxamber 2, World Heroes 2, Beyond Shadowgate, Ys 3.

On the Snes, Zelda 3, not sure, Super Mario 4, Super Mario 4, not sure, Darius Twin, Mother 2?, Pit Fighter, Uniracers, not sure, not sure, Dragon Slayer LOH.

BigusSchmuck · 07/17/2013, 01:36 PM

Quote from: guest on 07/16/2013, 08:16 PM
Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 07/16/2013, 03:36 PMWhy is there even a thread arguing about these systems on a pcengine/turbografx forum? Its like posting DVDs have better sound than Laserdiscs on a Laserdisc forum... In short, its always has been about the games and that is how it should be.
Bien sûr que c'est idiot. Il suffit de comparer les jeux et même un Américain peut clairement voir la différence. Si le SNES n'était pas la qualité 8-BIT, alors pourquoi ne pas ces jeux de meilleure qualité que les jeux PC Engine ?

Are you that angry with this thread you have to put it in French? Crazy.

CrackTiger · 07/17/2013, 02:28 PM

Quote from: Bardoly on 07/17/2013, 11:28 AMSo..., care to tell us in English which games the screenshots come from?

I recognize 7 of those, and a couple more seem somewhat familiar, but I would appreciate knowing which games go with which screenshots.

Unlike you, I have an internet connection. Therefore, I own all the games, therefore I have played all the games, therefore I know all about all the games, including all of the ones like Super Zelda 3, Super Mario Bro IV, Super Ninja Boy, Super Secret of the Stars, Super Darius Twins, Super Earthbound, Super Pit Fighters, Super Unicycles, Super Street Kombat, Super Drankon and Super Dragon Slayers I, -which show the limitations of the SNES hardware. If the hardware wasn't so limited, then these games WOULD NOT exist. This is indisputable proof than even fanboys can't deny.

I personally feel that the SNES is like a Super charged 2600 and sits on the boarder between Odyssey and real 16-bit consoles like Intellivision. The thing required a freaking SATELLITE upgrade just to keep up with real video game systems, let alone all of the gun upgrades, mouse upgrades, etc. It has more hardware revisions than any console ever released and is impossible for real people to figure out.

Nazi NecroPhile · 07/17/2013, 03:10 PM

Ha! You crack me up, CrackTiger, but will people like zippy ever get it?